@Magpie842, I have been playing around with variations on Habikiri's Control list which seems to play similarly greedily to the one you are describing It's a blast. Check out his last 3 deck-lists on MTGTop8 @ http://mtgtop8.com/search?player=habakiri
Wilfred Wafo-Tapa (if I have spelt that correctly) also runs some jeskai builds that go 'larger' with Gearhulk, Sphinx's Revalation, and Desolate Lighthouse main-deck. I believe these are his deck-lists that have posted results most recently, @ http://mtgtop8.com/search?player=MrCafouillette
I run something similar to the Habikiri main-deck but my sideboard is quite different, as I like to run 3 Geist of Saint Traft in the board for match-ups that we have to be the aggressor in. The main-deck is quite slow, but more favoured against all Eldrazi and Shadow variants than any other Jeskai list IMO.
Sure, let's go with that. I've never met him so I don't feel bad. Haha...
Me neither, haha. He's kind of a legend, I was just surprised to think that there was another Wafo-Tapa... maybe Wilfred is his brother??? But yeah, it sounds like you mean Guillaume.
With all of the wins over the past few days for Jeskai Control, I noticed that all the lists are starting to get a lot higher on the mana curve with 80& of spells being three or more mana.. Is the group consensus on here that 4x cryptic commands is the right number to be playing? I just hate the feeling of not having much early game interaction.. It allows for a lot of fast paced decks in the meta to just go unchecked..
Would love to hear feedback!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
There is no consensus on the correct number of Cryptic Command from the lists that have been posting results recently IMO. Some go-bigger lists play 3 cyptics but forego the 4th for other bomb sorceries (usuallly verdicts and planeswalkers). Some geists lists posting results have had as low as 2 cryptics, and some queller lists with good results have been running either 3 or 4 with no other spells costing 4 or more and plenty of early interaction.
I personally love the go-bigger style of Jeskai Control. Today's midrange decks are too big for bolt/helix/electrolyze, so unless we go under Eldrazi Tron and Deaths Shadow (as queller lists sometimes can via tempo) then we have to go bigger to answer them. Keeping a healthy (6-8) number of burn spells main-deck is still essential in giving us the edge over things like affinity and counters company though, and also to keep our g1 against low to the ground aggro positive.
P.S. @TheAnnihilator thanks for picking up on my error... definately was referring to Guillaume
Has anyone tried valorous stance in the sideboard for a cleaner answer to things like Goyf, Eldrazi, delve fatties and Death Shadow...it can also help keep a colonnade or queller alive in those matchups as well.
TheAller has tested Valerous Stance and liked it enough to run 2 in his 75. I like the card in a Queller list but haven't tested it thoroughly. Another to consider in a more aggressive stance would be Boros Charm but this doesn't answer DS and Eldrazi.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
I don't think you should go too deep on the toughness 4+ decks. I used to with blessed alliance or condemn but we have better ways to deal with them that have broader applications; I think you often lose more percentage against the field than you win against those few decks. Just run more supreme verdicts; if I wanted to run a card like valorous stance I'd just run a singleton condemn
Atleast personally i would rather run ghost quarter then the lighthouse. You probably only want 1 colorless land in this mana base..unless maybe you wanted to go to 24..but I'm not sure what you would cut md and 23 has always run smooth for me.
I think ghost quarter is better for us because tron is one of our worst match ups, and it's also helpful for things like cavern.
All this talk about Ghost Quarter's utility has made me wonder why Shadow of Doubt been neglected by UWx control for so long? It really is a blowout when it has a target, almost never dead, and when it is dead it cantrips at instant speed.
These are just the things it's done for me regularly since I've run it in my 75 and I now run 2 copies main-deck. I'm sure I've missed other good things it hits. Points 1 and 7 are universal benefits. Point 2 is almost universal in modern. Points 3, 5 and 6 (especially 5) show power against some weak match-ups for Jeskai that have high metagame shares currently (admittedly more useful Vs. traditional tron rather than Eldrazi tron but still not dead against Eldrazi).
Apart from the double-blue mana cost am I missing something here as to why so few lists run it? In my eyes double-blue isn't even an issue for most lists as we run Cryptic Command and Logic Knot anyway.
Geist/Queller lists may not have space in the main-deck, true. I play a different list, but regardless, what better sideboard card is there for us against TitanShift?
Hitting the Valakut player with Crumble to Dust may work once against a bad Valakut player who gives you a look at the card before going off. That is it. Same goes for spreading seas, molten rain, etc. Sure we can jam a geist or queller and race but anger of the gods and sweltering suns wreck that plan unless the player has trimmed copies (again, bad Valakut players will probably do this more often agaisnt Jeskai than good ones).
More so than that... it's hardly durdle. It's oppressive.... many lines of play for me have gone T2/T3 pass play, EOT opponent cracks fetch, i respond with SoD and ghost quarter his off-colour source. Pass to opponent who has 2 less land than he planned that turn, and no off-colour source, and me having a full grip. Just as brutal is to slam geist the turn after a SoD with them 1 mana behind or off-colour denied. Seems to have a good case for both draw-go and tempo plays. Hitting a land will always be a great tempo play. Hitting a scapeshift or a gifts is close to game-winning.
If we take the metrics for sideboard cards to be worthy we need;
a) the card to be a bomb in a certain match-up
or
b) the card hits multiple match-ups
I'm pretty sure my points 1-7 of my previous post show the card fits in both catagories. If 'durdling' is denying a land or stopping a game-winning combo piece then I sure love to durdle!
By the way I also love Desolate Lighthouse. An absolute house in control mirrors, but I run my GQ/SoD package so don't have room for more colourless lands
Here's my current I-love-to-durdle list, somewhere in between and permutating around a Habikiri list and a Wafo-Tapa list.
The only thing I often consider changing is Gideon, AoZ, but he keeps winning me games so obviously I am just twitching at sorcery-speed 4-drops for no reason. Just got my hands on a V-clique so testing that in the 3rd Geist slot in the SB. I also sometimes miss my 4th snappy. So the list is not settled quite yet...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
I think that my only problem with Shadow of Doubt is that it gets rid of the tempo that Jeskai decks go for now. Instead of efficient one mana removal in the form of path of exile, you are wasting 3 mana in order to prevent them from getting a land in addition. Almost all decks in the format are light on basic lands as is, so after your second path they usually don't have a target anyhow. And with fetches you are in essence wasting your second turn in order to set them back a land.
The same can be said about a lot of the other uses, in which just countering the spell is far more efficient. The only beneficial circumstance would be against Scapeshift as you mentioned because you could potentially have them sacrifice all of their lands. But if you aren't seeing a lot of that in your area then it would be a waste in my opinion.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
I think that my only problem with Shadow of Doubt is that it gets rid of the tempo that Jeskai decks go for now. Instead of efficient one mana removal in the form of path of exile, you are wasting 3 mana in order to prevent them from getting a land in addition. Almost all decks in the format are light on basic lands as is, so after your second path they usually don't have a target anyhow. And with fetches you are in essence wasting your second turn in order to set them back a land.
The same can be said about a lot of the other uses, in which just countering the spell is far more efficient. The only beneficial circumstance would be against Scapeshift as you mentioned because you could potentially have them sacrifice all of their lands. But if you aren't seeing a lot of that in your area then it would be a waste in my opinion.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
First of all thanks for the feedback so far, this is all very helpful in my quest to finalise my list for the PPTQ season here in Melbourne! Some good points have been made.. I'll address a couple.
@ax92
Gearhulk is a house against Eldrazi Tron (as long as your deck can go to turn 6 and hit its land drops against them). It is also great against delve threats like Tasigur and Gurmag Angler. It also is a flash win-con that generates value ETB which ticks all the boxes for a control deck. I'm a big fan but you do have to build your deck to accomodate it and it would be horrible in a Queller/Geist list (although I've never tested it). It is also weak to Khologan's Command. The drop to 3 snapcaster mages was to accomodate the Gearhulk as I want better game vs. Eldrazi Tron, but once I test the list further I will inevitably move back to 4 snapcaster mages.
@zcowan
First of all I have to sadly say that Shadow of Doubt will not cause a Scapeshift player to sac his lands, as Scapeshift requires the player to sacrifice lands upon resolution not cast, and the Scapeshift player can simply choose not to sac lands. The card (shift) would be much less powerful if it were sac-on-cast. Responding to Scapeshift with SoD is more like using a hard-counter remand.
Next up on the PtE synergy, it is true that if the opponent drops an early big threat that we need to path we may not have the mana or resources to cast both SoD and PtE. However it is also empirically true that when we have mana for both spells, SoD makes PtE better. And while basic lands are not run in high numbers in modern, most decks will have enough basics to fetch after at least your first 2 PtE's. SoD is good here, but the PtE is an incidental bonus in my mind (an incidental bonus that makes it main-deckable in certain metas).
In terms of using ones second turn to nab a fetchland on turn 2 being a waste of a turn, I'm not sure that it is. If they have 1 less land then usually they are unable to make their turn 3 play, or will play sub-optimally that turn and not do much threatening. At the very least hitting a fetch on turn 2 is a 2-mana, cantripping land destruction spell. If any LD spell actually gave us a cantrip and cost 2 mana then we would all be howling its praises, so I'm not so quick to dismiss the value of this play.
There are indeed things that we would rather just counter and deal with that way - for example Primeval Titan is better countered than allowed to resolve, even with SoD in hand to stop the ETB Search trigger. But in most of my examples above a counterspell and a SoD have examctly the same effect, but SoD draws a card. Counterspells trade 1-for-1. SoD trades 1 for 0 in essence. In fact, I am of the opinion that in almost ANY circumstance where both SoD and Logic Knot/Mana Leak can hit a target, SoD is a more efficient spell by a country mile. Again it's all about 'draw a card'.
Finally on the issue of 'tempo'... tempo is a funny word to use a lot of the time because it's ambiguous. I regard tempo as manifestation of board state (I guess others would define it differently). For example, remand is a perfect tempo card, allowing you to time-walk an opponents turn 2/3 play while remaining card-neutral, and then letting you resolve your turn 3 play 'ahead' of the natural board state. SoD isn't exactly tempo in the same manner but I sure feel way ahead on tempo when they crack a fetch when i have SoD in hand, as it will essentially allow me to resolve my turn 3 or 4 play (or hold up the relevant turn 3 or 4 interaction) while my opponent is still working on the plays that his depleted mana base will allow.
PPTQ's this weekend and FNM tonight, I'll let you know how it performs!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
First of all thanks for the feedback so far, this is all very helpful in my quest to finalise my list for the PPTQ season here in Melbourne! Some good points have been made.. I'll address a couple.
@ax92
Gearhulk is a house against Eldrazi Tron (as long as your deck can go to turn 6 and hit its land drops against them). It is also great against delve threats like Tasigur and Gurmag Angler. It also is a flash win-con that generates value ETB which ticks all the boxes for a control deck. I'm a big fan but you do have to build your deck to accomodate it and it would be horrible in a Queller/Geist list (although I've never tested it). It is also weak to Khologan's Command. The drop to 3 snapcaster mages was to accomodate the Gearhulk as I want better game vs. Eldrazi Tron, but once I test the list further I will inevitably move back to 4 snapcaster mages.
@zcowan
First of all I have to sadly say that Shadow of Doubt will not cause a Scapeshift player to sac his lands, as Scapeshift requires the player to sacrifice lands upon resolution not cast, and the Scapeshift player can simply choose not to sac lands. The card (shift) would be much less powerful if it were sac-on-cast. Responding to Scapeshift with SoD is more like using a hard-counter remand.
Next up on the PtE synergy, it is true that if the opponent drops an early big threat that we need to path we may not have the mana or resources to cast both SoD and PtE. However it is also empirically true that when we have mana for both spells, SoD makes PtE better. And while basic lands are not run in high numbers in modern, most decks will have enough basics to fetch after at least your first 2 PtE's. SoD is good here, but the PtE is an incidental bonus in my mind (an incidental bonus that makes it main-deckable in certain metas).
In terms of using ones second turn to nab a fetchland on turn 2 being a waste of a turn, I'm not sure that it is. If they have 1 less land then usually they are unable to make their turn 3 play, or will play sub-optimally that turn and not do much threatening. At the very least hitting a fetch on turn 2 is a 2-mana, cantripping land destruction spell. If any LD spell actually gave us a cantrip and cost 2 mana then we would all be howling its praises, so I'm not so quick to dismiss the value of this play.
There are indeed things that we would rather just counter and deal with that way - for example Primeval Titan is better countered than allowed to resolve, even with SoD in hand to stop the ETB Search trigger. But in most of my examples above a counterspell and a SoD have examctly the same effect, but SoD draws a card. Counterspells trade 1-for-1. SoD trades 1 for 0 in essence. In fact, I am of the opinion that in almost ANY circumstance where both SoD and Logic Knot/Mana Leak can hit a target, SoD is a more efficient spell by a country mile. Again it's all about 'draw a card'.
Finally on the issue of 'tempo'... tempo is a funny word to use a lot of the time because it's ambiguous. I regard tempo as manifestation of board state (I guess others would define it differently). For example, remand is a perfect tempo card, allowing you to time-walk an opponents turn 2/3 play while remaining card-neutral, and then letting you resolve your turn 3 play 'ahead' of the natural board state. SoD isn't exactly tempo in the same manner but I sure feel way ahead on tempo when they crack a fetch when i have SoD in hand, as it will essentially allow me to resolve my turn 3 or 4 play (or hold up the relevant turn 3 or 4 interaction) while my opponent is still working on the plays that his depleted mana base will allow.
PPTQ's this weekend and FNM tonight, I'll let you know how it performs!
Gearhulk seems great against eldrazi tron unless they have Karn or Ugin or Oblivion Stone or All is Dust. Since it has flash, you can negate that downside somewhat. A 5/6 to ambush a reality smasher seems like fun.
Shadow of Doubt seems excellent when it's good, ok when it's a 2 mana cycle, and awful when it's bad. I doubt its effectiveness and would only run 1 total main for a couple reasons. Its mana efficiency is alright, but not stellar. When paired with snapcaster, to Shadow Snap Shadow costs 6 mana, for example. Seems like a cornercase (and it likely is) but asking how it interacts with Snappy is a good way to get a feel for the card's effectiveness.
I really don't like it against GDS, since they have thoughtseize and IOK. Once they see that there is a SoD on the other side of the table, you can't get them quite so easily. Against tron though--actual tron--it seems like a great card. They have a bunch of maps, sylvan scryings, etc.
First of all thanks for the feedback so far, this is all very helpful in my quest to finalise my list for the PPTQ season here in Melbourne! Some good points have been made.. I'll address a couple.
@ax92
Gearhulk is a house against Eldrazi Tron (as long as your deck can go to turn 6 and hit its land drops against them). It is also great against delve threats like Tasigur and Gurmag Angler. It also is a flash win-con that generates value ETB which ticks all the boxes for a control deck. I'm a big fan but you do have to build your deck to accomodate it and it would be horrible in a Queller/Geist list (although I've never tested it). It is also weak to Khologan's Command. The drop to 3 snapcaster mages was to accomodate the Gearhulk as I want better game vs. Eldrazi Tron, but once I test the list further I will inevitably move back to 4 snapcaster mages.
@zcowan
First of all I have to sadly say that Shadow of Doubt will not cause a Scapeshift player to sac his lands, as Scapeshift requires the player to sacrifice lands upon resolution not cast, and the Scapeshift player can simply choose not to sac lands. The card (shift) would be much less powerful if it were sac-on-cast. Responding to Scapeshift with SoD is more like using a hard-counter remand.
Next up on the PtE synergy, it is true that if the opponent drops an early big threat that we need to path we may not have the mana or resources to cast both SoD and PtE. However it is also empirically true that when we have mana for both spells, SoD makes PtE better. And while basic lands are not run in high numbers in modern, most decks will have enough basics to fetch after at least your first 2 PtE's. SoD is good here, but the PtE is an incidental bonus in my mind (an incidental bonus that makes it main-deckable in certain metas).
In terms of using ones second turn to nab a fetchland on turn 2 being a waste of a turn, I'm not sure that it is. If they have 1 less land then usually they are unable to make their turn 3 play, or will play sub-optimally that turn and not do much threatening. At the very least hitting a fetch on turn 2 is a 2-mana, cantripping land destruction spell. If any LD spell actually gave us a cantrip and cost 2 mana then we would all be howling its praises, so I'm not so quick to dismiss the value of this play.
There are indeed things that we would rather just counter and deal with that way - for example Primeval Titan is better countered than allowed to resolve, even with SoD in hand to stop the ETB Search trigger. But in most of my examples above a counterspell and a SoD have examctly the same effect, but SoD draws a card. Counterspells trade 1-for-1. SoD trades 1 for 0 in essence. In fact, I am of the opinion that in almost ANY circumstance where both SoD and Logic Knot/Mana Leak can hit a target, SoD is a more efficient spell by a country mile. Again it's all about 'draw a card'.
Finally on the issue of 'tempo'... tempo is a funny word to use a lot of the time because it's ambiguous. I regard tempo as manifestation of board state (I guess others would define it differently). For example, remand is a perfect tempo card, allowing you to time-walk an opponents turn 2/3 play while remaining card-neutral, and then letting you resolve your turn 3 play 'ahead' of the natural board state. SoD isn't exactly tempo in the same manner but I sure feel way ahead on tempo when they crack a fetch when i have SoD in hand, as it will essentially allow me to resolve my turn 3 or 4 play (or hold up the relevant turn 3 or 4 interaction) while my opponent is still working on the plays that his depleted mana base will allow.
PPTQ's this weekend and FNM tonight, I'll let you know how it performs!
Gearhulk seems great against eldrazi tron unless they have Karn or Ugin or Oblivion Stone or All is Dust. Since it has flash, you can negate that downside somewhat. A 5/6 to ambush a reality smasher seems like fun.
Shadow of Doubt seems excellent when it's good, ok when it's a 2 mana cycle, and awful when it's bad. I doubt its effectiveness and would only run 1 total main for a couple reasons. Its mana efficiency is alright, but not stellar. When paired with snapcaster, to Shadow Snap Shadow costs 6 mana, for example. Seems like a cornercase (and it likely is) but asking how it interacts with Snappy is a good way to get a feel for the card's effectiveness.
I really don't like it against GDS, since they have thoughtseize and IOK. Once they see that there is a SoD on the other side of the table, you can't get them quite so easily. Against tron though--actual tron--it seems like a great card. They have a bunch of maps, sylvan scryings, etc.
Why would you ever have to Snap Shadow twice in a turn? If you're using it as just a cantrip then the Snappy isn't being utilized to it's fully potential and if you need to dig that far you probably were behind on board anyway. The card has decent utility but since we don't have a MD answer for a resolved map or fetchland this can really cripple the opponent and swing a game.
As well, the argument for having it in the deck against DS is a great one because if they IOK you and the choice is between path and shadow, they have to decide against getting their manabase screwed or taking the spell that kills a threat. It's a two pronged approach to hurting their deck strategy. It also has the great benefit of helping to stop storm, which is a deck that usually preys on control based decks, and it also kills the Company Vizier strategies to give another turn to prevent them comboing off.
Depending on your build, one of the advantages of U/W in this meta is the card advantage us huge, and Jeskai gives up some of that for raw power and flexibility to be more of an aggro strategy, so the cantrip can be in of itself a very powerful tool.
On another note i've been running the 4 Snap/1 Torrential 3 Planeswalker build and I wonder if the build needs Sphinx's Rev in it or not. Coming from a recent U/W stint, that card is utterly amazing but I'm having a hard time replacing anything in the 60 and it's not that great of a sideboard option. How are people's mileage if they use it in the PW build?
I think Rev is less played in Jeskai because we have main-deck life-gain (helix), so we are able to look at cheaper or more mana-efficient card draw instead. I really like Glimmer of Genius and usually would play it over Rev.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Wilfred? You mean Guillaume Wafo-Tapa?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Me neither, haha. He's kind of a legend, I was just surprised to think that there was another Wafo-Tapa... maybe Wilfred is his brother???
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Would love to hear feedback!
I personally love the go-bigger style of Jeskai Control. Today's midrange decks are too big for bolt/helix/electrolyze, so unless we go under Eldrazi Tron and Deaths Shadow (as queller lists sometimes can via tempo) then we have to go bigger to answer them. Keeping a healthy (6-8) number of burn spells main-deck is still essential in giving us the edge over things like affinity and counters company though, and also to keep our g1 against low to the ground aggro positive.
P.S. @TheAnnihilator thanks for picking up on my error... definately was referring to Guillaume
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Because the color requirements are tight and you generally don't have time to durdle with the Lighthouse.
I think ghost quarter is better for us because tron is one of our worst match ups, and it's also helpful for things like cavern.
Shadow of Doubt;
1) turns ghost quarter into strip mine
2) denies fetchlands
3) denies expedition map or sylvan scrying on the play or on the draw if the opponent doesn't know you have it
4) denies Chord of Calling
5) denies most of Valakut decks payoff and ramp cards (scapeshift, summoner's pact, primeval titan triggers, search for tomorrow, farseek, sakura-tribe elder, hour of promise, etc.)
6) denies merchant scroll and gifts ungiven
7) makes path to exile better
These are just the things it's done for me regularly since I've run it in my 75 and I now run 2 copies main-deck. I'm sure I've missed other good things it hits. Points 1 and 7 are universal benefits. Point 2 is almost universal in modern. Points 3, 5 and 6 (especially 5) show power against some weak match-ups for Jeskai that have high metagame shares currently (admittedly more useful Vs. traditional tron rather than Eldrazi tron but still not dead against Eldrazi).
Apart from the double-blue mana cost am I missing something here as to why so few lists run it? In my eyes double-blue isn't even an issue for most lists as we run Cryptic Command and Logic Knot anyway.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Hitting the Valakut player with Crumble to Dust may work once against a bad Valakut player who gives you a look at the card before going off. That is it. Same goes for spreading seas, molten rain, etc. Sure we can jam a geist or queller and race but anger of the gods and sweltering suns wreck that plan unless the player has trimmed copies (again, bad Valakut players will probably do this more often agaisnt Jeskai than good ones).
More so than that... it's hardly durdle. It's oppressive.... many lines of play for me have gone T2/T3 pass play, EOT opponent cracks fetch, i respond with SoD and ghost quarter his off-colour source. Pass to opponent who has 2 less land than he planned that turn, and no off-colour source, and me having a full grip. Just as brutal is to slam geist the turn after a SoD with them 1 mana behind or off-colour denied. Seems to have a good case for both draw-go and tempo plays. Hitting a land will always be a great tempo play. Hitting a scapeshift or a gifts is close to game-winning.
If we take the metrics for sideboard cards to be worthy we need;
a) the card to be a bomb in a certain match-up
or
b) the card hits multiple match-ups
I'm pretty sure my points 1-7 of my previous post show the card fits in both catagories. If 'durdling' is denying a land or stopping a game-winning combo piece then I sure love to durdle!
By the way I also love Desolate Lighthouse. An absolute house in control mirrors, but I run my GQ/SoD package so don't have room for more colourless lands
Here's my current I-love-to-durdle list, somewhere in between and permutating around a Habikiri list and a Wafo-Tapa list.
4x Serum Visions
4x Path to Exile
2x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
2x Shadow of Doubt
1x Think Twice
2x Mana Leak
2x Logic Knot
2x Electrolyze
3x Cryptic Command
3x Supreme Verdict
Creatures (4)
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Torrential Gearhulk
Other (3)
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Engineered Eplosies
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Celestial colonnade
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Flooded Strand
1x Arid Mesa
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Steam Vents
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Spirebluff Canal
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Mystic Gate
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Stony Silence
2x Wear // Tear
1x Dispel
2x Counterflux
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Rest in Peace
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
The only thing I often consider changing is Gideon, AoZ, but he keeps winning me games so obviously I am just twitching at sorcery-speed 4-drops for no reason. Just got my hands on a V-clique so testing that in the 3rd Geist slot in the SB. I also sometimes miss my 4th snappy. So the list is not settled quite yet...
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
The same can be said about a lot of the other uses, in which just countering the spell is far more efficient. The only beneficial circumstance would be against Scapeshift as you mentioned because you could potentially have them sacrifice all of their lands. But if you aren't seeing a lot of that in your area then it would be a waste in my opinion.
The same can be said about a lot of the other uses, in which just countering the spell is far more efficient. The only beneficial circumstance would be against Scapeshift as you mentioned because you could potentially have them sacrifice all of their lands. But if you aren't seeing a lot of that in your area then it would be a waste in my opinion.
@ax92
Gearhulk is a house against Eldrazi Tron (as long as your deck can go to turn 6 and hit its land drops against them). It is also great against delve threats like Tasigur and Gurmag Angler. It also is a flash win-con that generates value ETB which ticks all the boxes for a control deck. I'm a big fan but you do have to build your deck to accomodate it and it would be horrible in a Queller/Geist list (although I've never tested it). It is also weak to Khologan's Command. The drop to 3 snapcaster mages was to accomodate the Gearhulk as I want better game vs. Eldrazi Tron, but once I test the list further I will inevitably move back to 4 snapcaster mages.
@zcowan
First of all I have to sadly say that Shadow of Doubt will not cause a Scapeshift player to sac his lands, as Scapeshift requires the player to sacrifice lands upon resolution not cast, and the Scapeshift player can simply choose not to sac lands. The card (shift) would be much less powerful if it were sac-on-cast. Responding to Scapeshift with SoD is more like using a hard-counter remand.
Next up on the PtE synergy, it is true that if the opponent drops an early big threat that we need to path we may not have the mana or resources to cast both SoD and PtE. However it is also empirically true that when we have mana for both spells, SoD makes PtE better. And while basic lands are not run in high numbers in modern, most decks will have enough basics to fetch after at least your first 2 PtE's. SoD is good here, but the PtE is an incidental bonus in my mind (an incidental bonus that makes it main-deckable in certain metas).
In terms of using ones second turn to nab a fetchland on turn 2 being a waste of a turn, I'm not sure that it is. If they have 1 less land then usually they are unable to make their turn 3 play, or will play sub-optimally that turn and not do much threatening. At the very least hitting a fetch on turn 2 is a 2-mana, cantripping land destruction spell. If any LD spell actually gave us a cantrip and cost 2 mana then we would all be howling its praises, so I'm not so quick to dismiss the value of this play.
There are indeed things that we would rather just counter and deal with that way - for example Primeval Titan is better countered than allowed to resolve, even with SoD in hand to stop the ETB Search trigger. But in most of my examples above a counterspell and a SoD have examctly the same effect, but SoD draws a card. Counterspells trade 1-for-1. SoD trades 1 for 0 in essence. In fact, I am of the opinion that in almost ANY circumstance where both SoD and Logic Knot/Mana Leak can hit a target, SoD is a more efficient spell by a country mile. Again it's all about 'draw a card'.
Finally on the issue of 'tempo'... tempo is a funny word to use a lot of the time because it's ambiguous. I regard tempo as manifestation of board state (I guess others would define it differently). For example, remand is a perfect tempo card, allowing you to time-walk an opponents turn 2/3 play while remaining card-neutral, and then letting you resolve your turn 3 play 'ahead' of the natural board state. SoD isn't exactly tempo in the same manner but I sure feel way ahead on tempo when they crack a fetch when i have SoD in hand, as it will essentially allow me to resolve my turn 3 or 4 play (or hold up the relevant turn 3 or 4 interaction) while my opponent is still working on the plays that his depleted mana base will allow.
PPTQ's this weekend and FNM tonight, I'll let you know how it performs!
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Gearhulk seems great against eldrazi tron unless they have Karn or Ugin or Oblivion Stone or All is Dust. Since it has flash, you can negate that downside somewhat. A 5/6 to ambush a reality smasher seems like fun.
Shadow of Doubt seems excellent when it's good, ok when it's a 2 mana cycle, and awful when it's bad. I doubt its effectiveness and would only run 1 total main for a couple reasons. Its mana efficiency is alright, but not stellar. When paired with snapcaster, to Shadow Snap Shadow costs 6 mana, for example. Seems like a cornercase (and it likely is) but asking how it interacts with Snappy is a good way to get a feel for the card's effectiveness.
I really don't like it against GDS, since they have thoughtseize and IOK. Once they see that there is a SoD on the other side of the table, you can't get them quite so easily. Against tron though--actual tron--it seems like a great card. They have a bunch of maps, sylvan scryings, etc.
Why would you ever have to Snap Shadow twice in a turn? If you're using it as just a cantrip then the Snappy isn't being utilized to it's fully potential and if you need to dig that far you probably were behind on board anyway. The card has decent utility but since we don't have a MD answer for a resolved map or fetchland this can really cripple the opponent and swing a game.
As well, the argument for having it in the deck against DS is a great one because if they IOK you and the choice is between path and shadow, they have to decide against getting their manabase screwed or taking the spell that kills a threat. It's a two pronged approach to hurting their deck strategy. It also has the great benefit of helping to stop storm, which is a deck that usually preys on control based decks, and it also kills the Company Vizier strategies to give another turn to prevent them comboing off.
Depending on your build, one of the advantages of U/W in this meta is the card advantage us huge, and Jeskai gives up some of that for raw power and flexibility to be more of an aggro strategy, so the cantrip can be in of itself a very powerful tool.
On another note i've been running the 4 Snap/1 Torrential 3 Planeswalker build and I wonder if the build needs Sphinx's Rev in it or not. Coming from a recent U/W stint, that card is utterly amazing but I'm having a hard time replacing anything in the 60 and it's not that great of a sideboard option. How are people's mileage if they use it in the PW build?
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza