I just watched the top 8 Jeskai match from SCG Syracuse where Rossum got eaten by Eldrazi Tron. Question for the Jeskai Queller pilots: how bad is the matchup exactly? It looks pretty disgusting. What Karn doesn't hit, All is Dust does. They have Thought-Knot Seer as a better Vendilion Clique to eat answers for the big threats--either by being countered or by taking something with its ability--and Reality Smasher and Matter Reshaper to grind. Queller certainly seems great against the lower part of the curve, but the higher part--ballista, all is dust, karn--seems to disregard it. I have thought about giving the deck a shot, but seeing it crumple on camera like that gives me misgivings.
I think the match is atrocious no matter what version of Jeskai you're on. Tron is actually a better match for Jeskai than EldraziTron, but all of that is my opinion.
I think the match is atrocious no matter what version of Jeskai you're on. Tron is actually a better match for Jeskai than EldraziTron, but all of that is my opinion.
This is true. Your outs in the matchup are either in the form of wraths in pure control, or burn and tempo in the queller version. Neither is great. UW control has better game against EldraziTron and Tron than we do but Jeskai has more even matchups against the field as a whole.
Ceremonious Rejection does a lot of work in that match-up. If you face it a lot plug 3-4 in the sideboard. In combination with Snapcaster you can counter a lot of their big spells.
It's interesting to see that people have started to embrace using Spell Queller. For those of us who have a heavy controlling mindset, the idea of playing something that's a non-permanent answer can feel a bit unnerving. However, Queller can be quite good in Modern since there are many decks that skimp on removal. I started using the card about a year ago in sideboards and it's number in my mainboard kept going up (I played the full four in my RPTQ last December and have mostly stuck with that).
My instinct has been to go with the latter in all three. That's definitely the UW mentality, but is it how I should be playing a Jeskai list like Rossum's?
Context is always going to matter in these scenarios, and playing by hard rules can lead you down the wrong line in many games. The Queller deck often lacks the ability to totally control the game in many matchups, but fortunately you don't need total control in order to win. The trick of course is recognizing when to push for damage, and I feel like many pilots get a little conservative in this area. If you know there are certain cards that will beat you and you have no other answers, then holding the Queller is often the right choice. There are also plenty of instances where you have to just play a Spell Queller as a Nephalia Seakite too!
I'd classify the "Queller" decks as some sort of midrange/aggro-control hybrid, kind of like the Shenhar UWR Midrange or Jeskai Geist lists, since it's primarily on the tempo/burn game plan with controlling elements secondary.
My instinct has been to go with the latter in all three. That's definitely the UW mentality, but is it how I should be playing a Jeskai list like Rossum's?
Context is always going to matter in these scenarios, and playing by hard rules can lead you down the wrong line in many games. The Queller deck often lacks the ability to totally control the game in many matchups, but fortunately you don't need total control in order to win. The trick of course is recognizing when to push for damage, and I feel like many pilots get a little conservative in this area. If you know there are certain cards that will beat you and you have no other answers, then holding the Queller is often the right choice. There are also plenty of instances where you have to just play a Spell Queller as a Nephalia Seakite too!
Context will always matter for specific decisions, but it was intended as a general question about philosophy. For example burn is rarely the control. 8 Whacker is rarely the control. UW is approximately never the beatdown. But Delver or Death & Taxes? Much more fluid because they're aggro-control. For anyone new to the deck (or even an absent minded veteran) it's worth asking where various builds of Jeskai Control falls on the aggro to control spectrum. A version with Geist of Saint Traft and Spell Queller slides one direction while maindecking Supreme Verdict goes the other.
I don't really agree with those who say if you play Queller (and possibly a couple Geist) you are a tempo deck with control elements. It's the other way around. It's a control deck, that can play a sort of tempo game against some specific types of opponents.
To answer to Darkest_before_dawn, it depends on the MU. But usually, you should play like a control deck. At least that's how I play and it works well for me. I don't rush anything and hold cards to make the most powerful plays possible. However, there are MUs where we usually CAN'T go in the late game (for example: Eldrazi Tron or Valakut) and therefore we should usually (context is always important and there are no rules that are ALWAYS relevant) play a tempoish gameplan.
Appreciate the responses from everyone! Just didn't want to quote the whole page.
It's interesting that you were one of the few that edged more towards the control side. Would that mean, for example, that in most instances you would hold off playing a Geist until T5 so that you could also keep up a counter-spell? Say the match-up is one of the many aggro-control tempo/midrange decks, Merfolk without a Vial, Junk/Jund, D&T, etc.
I just watched the top 8 Jeskai match from SCG Syracuse where Rossum got eaten by Eldrazi Tron. Question for the Jeskai Queller pilots: how bad is the matchup exactly? It looks pretty disgusting. What Karn doesn't hit, All is Dust does. They have Thought-Knot Seer as a better Vendilion Clique to eat answers for the big threats--either by being countered or by taking something with its ability--and Reality Smasher and Matter Reshaper to grind. Queller certainly seems great against the lower part of the curve, but the higher part--ballista, all is dust, karn--seems to disregard it. I have thought about giving the deck a shot, but seeing it crumple on camera like that gives me misgivings.
I think the match is atrocious no matter what version of Jeskai you're on. Tron is actually a better match for Jeskai than EldraziTron, but all of that is my opinion.
Totaly agree, it's a bad matchup even after side, but if you can hit some copies of Ceremonious Rejection it's a bit better. Mana Denial doesn't work too well against it as much as it could work against regular Tron. They have too many problematic creatures at 3-4-5 CMC, they have an atrociously good curve and something could always miss our counters/removal, and from there it's pretty bad.
I'm probably wrong, but I've always felt like the Eldrazi Tron match-up is slightly better than Tron.
But I also play a removal heavy package (verdict, blessed alliance, etc.)
Hey everyone, I sleeved up Jonathan Rosum's list list night to play at a local tournament. It felt really good, and the 1-of Thundermaw won me all 3 games that I drew him in.
But I was wondering how to sideboard against eldrazi tron. I identified the obvious cards to bring in from the board, which included 2 Rejection, Verdict, 2 Stony Silence, 1 Elspeth, and maybe Vendilion Clique. But what do you cut? My first inclination was to cut the Helixs and electrolyze, and trim the bolts because they don't kill much in the matchup. But the matchup seemed like the jeskai deck really wanted to be the beatdown, and cutting the burn spells makes that plan much worse. So I wonder if cutting the cryptics, and not bringing in the elspeth and verdict might be a better plan. I'm not experienced in the matchup do know, I was just theorizing.
Hey everyone, I sleeved up Jonathan Rosum's list list night to play at a local tournament. It felt really good, and the 1-of Thundermaw won me all 3 games that I drew him in.
But I was wondering how to sideboard against eldrazi tron. I identified the obvious cards to bring in from the board, which included 2 Rejection, Verdict, 2 Stony Silence, 1 Elspeth, and maybe Vendilion Clique. But what do you cut? My first inclination was to cut the Helixs and electrolyze, and trim the bolts because they don't kill much in the matchup. But the matchup seemed like the jeskai deck really wanted to be the beatdown, and cutting the burn spells makes that plan much worse. So I wonder if cutting the cryptics, and not bringing in the elspeth and verdict might be a better plan. I'm not experienced in the matchup do know, I was just theorizing.
I typically cut all bolts and a single helix (5-6 cards, leaving two helix).
Another thing you can do is cut counter magic (mana leaks / logic knots).
I don't really agree with those who say if you play Queller (and possibly a couple Geist) you are a tempo deck with control elements. It's the other way around. It's a control deck, that can play a sort of tempo game against some specific types of opponents.
To answer to Darkest_before_dawn, it depends on the MU. But usually, you should play like a control deck. At least that's how I play and it works well for me. I don't rush anything and hold cards to make the most powerful plays possible. However, there are MUs where we usually CAN'T go in the late game (for example: Eldrazi Tron or Valakut) and therefore we should usually (context is always important and there are no rules that are ALWAYS relevant) play a tempoish gameplan.
To JohnSwift: I don't get your point about Eldrazi Tron. I mean, it's a fact Spell Queller improves the MU. So I don't get why you say you don't like Queller because the guy got crushed by Eldrazi Tron. The MU is still tough, but if you play without Quellers, it's a lot tougher. So again, I don't really get your point.
Ceremonious Rejection does a lot of work in that match-up. If you face it a lot plug 3-4 in the sideboard. In combination with Snapcaster you can counter a lot of their big spells.
True. Although I should point out: the Ceremonious Rejection plan only works against some type of Eldrazi Tron hands. If they can somehow fetch a Cavern of Souls, they will overrrun us if they are good players, deploying one threat at a time, taking away our answers with TKS, gaining CA with Reshaper and Smasher. Also: sometimes Chalice will shut down Rejection.
Cavern is a one of. It's not something you should be spending much time worrying about in that match-up. Rejection also counters Chalice.
I don't really agree with those who say if you play Queller (and possibly a couple Geist) you are a tempo deck with control elements. It's the other way around. It's a control deck, that can play a sort of tempo game against some specific types of opponents.
To answer to Darkest_before_dawn, it depends on the MU. But usually, you should play like a control deck. At least that's how I play and it works well for me. I don't rush anything and hold cards to make the most powerful plays possible. However, there are MUs where we usually CAN'T go in the late game (for example: Eldrazi Tron or Valakut) and therefore we should usually (context is always important and there are no rules that are ALWAYS relevant) play a tempoish gameplan.
To JohnSwift: I don't get your point about Eldrazi Tron. I mean, it's a fact Spell Queller improves the MU. So I don't get why you say you don't like Queller because the guy got crushed by Eldrazi Tron. The MU is still tough, but if you play without Quellers, it's a lot tougher. So again, I don't really get your point.
Ceremonious Rejection does a lot of work in that match-up. If you face it a lot plug 3-4 in the sideboard. In combination with Snapcaster you can counter a lot of their big spells.
True. Although I should point out: the Ceremonious Rejection plan only works against some type of Eldrazi Tron hands. If they can somehow fetch a Cavern of Souls, they will overrrun us if they are good players, deploying one threat at a time, taking away our answers with TKS, gaining CA with Reshaper and Smasher. Also: sometimes Chalice will shut down Rejection.
Cavern is a one of. It's not something you should be spending much time worrying about in that match-up. Rejection also counters Chalice.
Eldrazi Tron usually plays two cavern + 4 expedition map to possibly fetch it.
I don't really agree with those who say if you play Queller (and possibly a couple Geist) you are a tempo deck with control elements. It's the other way around. It's a control deck, that can play a sort of tempo game against some specific types of opponents.
To answer to Darkest_before_dawn, it depends on the MU. But usually, you should play like a control deck. At least that's how I play and it works well for me. I don't rush anything and hold cards to make the most powerful plays possible. However, there are MUs where we usually CAN'T go in the late game (for example: Eldrazi Tron or Valakut) and therefore we should usually (context is always important and there are no rules that are ALWAYS relevant) play a tempoish gameplan.
To JohnSwift: I don't get your point about Eldrazi Tron. I mean, it's a fact Spell Queller improves the MU. So I don't get why you say you don't like Queller because the guy got crushed by Eldrazi Tron. The MU is still tough, but if you play without Quellers, it's a lot tougher. So again, I don't really get your point.
Ceremonious Rejection does a lot of work in that match-up. If you face it a lot plug 3-4 in the sideboard. In combination with Snapcaster you can counter a lot of their big spells.
True. Although I should point out: the Ceremonious Rejection plan only works against some type of Eldrazi Tron hands. If they can somehow fetch a Cavern of Souls, they will overrrun us if they are good players, deploying one threat at a time, taking away our answers with TKS, gaining CA with Reshaper and Smasher. Also: sometimes Chalice will shut down Rejection.
Cavern is a one of. It's not something you should be spending much time worrying about in that match-up. Rejection also counters Chalice.
Eldrazi Tron usually plays two cavern + 4 expedition map to possibly fetch it.
Yes, but that doesn't stop you from using Rejection on Expedition map, or Chalice, etc.
I think the best lists only run one but I've also seen people running two. There aren't enough creature counter spells for multiple caverns to be very beneficial. I'm not sure what you guys are trying to suggest...will you not bring in rejection against Eldrazi Tron?? That has been identified as far and a way our best sideboard card in that match-up.
I plan on running a list close to Rosum's, but I am curious about the Hellkite...if we were to go that route, wouldn't Stormbreath Dragon be better? Both will die to things like terminate, dismember, double bolt, but Stormbreath dodges path, which is relevant...Stormbreath's ability is also more relevant as it can be a mana sink/game ender in the later turns. I get that Thundermaw can hit for 1 more point of damage a turn and can kill things like spirit tokens or tap down a flying fatty, but that doesn't seem better given the stormbreath, over the course of the game, could hit for much more damage and their doesn't seem to be a whole lot of flying threats in modern these days (and the ones that are are mostly white). What are your guys' thoughts? Would you play Stormbreath over Thundermaw or not even play one all together?
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
SO I recently switched my Jeskai Control around to be a flash build with spell quellers and whatnot, but I was wondering what the significance of restoration angel is? I get that it presents a threat on board and can lead to some late game snapcaster/vendillion clique shenanigans but it seems irrelevant?
Since it's only a 2 of in most lists that I see, would Geist be a better alternative given that he can be dropped on turn 3 and has protection from 80% of the kill spells in the format as more people are using fatal push and path over actual board wipe effects?
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
Is Queller worth any consideration in Nahiri based builds? It seems like a great curve of T2 - T3 disruption, T4 Nahiri with additional protection.
..i think it could be viable and plan on testing a build for the next mkm series. not sure how to split the counter suite since the 4-slot is quite jammed with planeswalker options and cryptics (also snap+2drop is clogging the turn4 plays). how do you plan on building the 75?
@Magpie842, I have been playing around with variations on Habikiri's Control list which seems to play similarly greedily to the one you are describing It's a blast. Check out his last 3 deck-lists on MTGTop8 @ http://mtgtop8.com/search?player=habakiri
Wilfred Wafo-Tapa (if I have spelt that correctly) also runs some jeskai builds that go 'larger' with Gearhulk, Sphinx's Revalation, and Desolate Lighthouse main-deck. I believe these are his deck-lists that have posted results most recently, @ http://mtgtop8.com/search?player=MrCafouillette
I run something similar to the Habikiri main-deck but my sideboard is quite different, as I like to run 3 Geist of Saint Traft in the board for match-ups that we have to be the aggressor in. The main-deck is quite slow, but more favoured against all Eldrazi and Shadow variants than any other Jeskai list IMO.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
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I think the match is atrocious no matter what version of Jeskai you're on. Tron is actually a better match for Jeskai than EldraziTron, but all of that is my opinion.
This is true. Your outs in the matchup are either in the form of wraths in pure control, or burn and tempo in the queller version. Neither is great. UW control has better game against EldraziTron and Tron than we do but Jeskai has more even matchups against the field as a whole.
Context is always going to matter in these scenarios, and playing by hard rules can lead you down the wrong line in many games. The Queller deck often lacks the ability to totally control the game in many matchups, but fortunately you don't need total control in order to win. The trick of course is recognizing when to push for damage, and I feel like many pilots get a little conservative in this area. If you know there are certain cards that will beat you and you have no other answers, then holding the Queller is often the right choice. There are also plenty of instances where you have to just play a Spell Queller as a Nephalia Seakite too!
My favorite card by far.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Context will always matter for specific decisions, but it was intended as a general question about philosophy. For example burn is rarely the control. 8 Whacker is rarely the control. UW is approximately never the beatdown. But Delver or Death & Taxes? Much more fluid because they're aggro-control. For anyone new to the deck (or even an absent minded veteran) it's worth asking where various builds of Jeskai Control falls on the aggro to control spectrum. A version with Geist of Saint Traft and Spell Queller slides one direction while maindecking Supreme Verdict goes the other.
For reference, here's the naming conventions I'm using: http://modernnexus.com/clarifying-convention-deck-names/
Appreciate the responses from everyone! Just didn't want to quote the whole page.
It's interesting that you were one of the few that edged more towards the control side. Would that mean, for example, that in most instances you would hold off playing a Geist until T5 so that you could also keep up a counter-spell? Say the match-up is one of the many aggro-control tempo/midrange decks, Merfolk without a Vial, Junk/Jund, D&T, etc.
4x Celestial Colonnade
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Spirebluff Canal
2x Cryptic Command
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
3x Mana Leak
4x Path to Exile
3x Remand
Creature (12)
2x Restoration Angel
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Spell Queller
2x Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (4)
4x Serum Visions
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Blessed Alliance
1x crumble to dust
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Dispel
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Negate
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Supreme Verdict
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I'm probably wrong, but I've always felt like the Eldrazi Tron match-up is slightly better than Tron.
But I also play a removal heavy package (verdict, blessed alliance, etc.)
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
But I was wondering how to sideboard against eldrazi tron. I identified the obvious cards to bring in from the board, which included 2 Rejection, Verdict, 2 Stony Silence, 1 Elspeth, and maybe Vendilion Clique. But what do you cut? My first inclination was to cut the Helixs and electrolyze, and trim the bolts because they don't kill much in the matchup. But the matchup seemed like the jeskai deck really wanted to be the beatdown, and cutting the burn spells makes that plan much worse. So I wonder if cutting the cryptics, and not bringing in the elspeth and verdict might be a better plan. I'm not experienced in the matchup do know, I was just theorizing.
I typically cut all bolts and a single helix (5-6 cards, leaving two helix).
Another thing you can do is cut counter magic (mana leaks / logic knots).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Cavern is a one of. It's not something you should be spending much time worrying about in that match-up. Rejection also counters Chalice.
Eldrazi Tron usually plays two cavern + 4 expedition map to possibly fetch it.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Yes, but that doesn't stop you from using Rejection on Expedition map, or Chalice, etc.
I think the best lists only run one but I've also seen people running two. There aren't enough creature counter spells for multiple caverns to be very beneficial. I'm not sure what you guys are trying to suggest...will you not bring in rejection against Eldrazi Tron?? That has been identified as far and a way our best sideboard card in that match-up.
Since it's only a 2 of in most lists that I see, would Geist be a better alternative given that he can be dropped on turn 3 and has protection from 80% of the kill spells in the format as more people are using fatal push and path over actual board wipe effects?
Wilfred Wafo-Tapa (if I have spelt that correctly) also runs some jeskai builds that go 'larger' with Gearhulk, Sphinx's Revalation, and Desolate Lighthouse main-deck. I believe these are his deck-lists that have posted results most recently, @ http://mtgtop8.com/search?player=MrCafouillette
I run something similar to the Habikiri main-deck but my sideboard is quite different, as I like to run 3 Geist of Saint Traft in the board for match-ups that we have to be the aggressor in. The main-deck is quite slow, but more favoured against all Eldrazi and Shadow variants than any other Jeskai list IMO.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza