It's not wrong with any sort of certainty. Not sure why you would suggest that since almost all lists I've seen run 3-4. UW control has run 4 snap to great success for years.
You keep arguing for arguing's sake. There is no UW Control that plays four Snappy. There wasn't in the recent past. And it's wrong playing them because you don't have the same amount of cheap spells to flashback with him. 90% of UW lists - results oriented, not in my mind - are sold on two Snapcaster Mage. Three is also sometimes fine, with a different build (more focused on cheap removals). Four, it's just overkill. Try to make your argument work with any UW competent pilot, and let's see what they say.
I can attest to this as far as UW is concerned. The vast majority of UW decks play 2 Snapcasters.
The issue is that there are 2 different schools of thought on Snapcaster -- some lean on him as a form of tempo (i.e. a spell plus a 2/1 body), others see him as pure utility (a way to flashback any spell from you graveyard). In UW, the only spells worth flashing back tend to be Path, Blessed Alliance, or Cryptic. Occasionally, you'll have the ability to flashback a Leak or Knot, and it'll be good, but it's not really a huge play; and flashing back Serum is pretty lackluster in UW. In addition, a 2/1 body means next to nothing to UW -- the best thing Snappy does is block and trade unless you Cryptic him back to hand somehow. Thus, UW is only playing Snappy for the second school of thought -- pure utility, which is why they play 2 as a sort of catch-all, since it otherwise gets redundant.
Jeskai, on the other hand, takes full advantage of both schools of thought. Not only can a 2/1 body be very relevant in Jeskai, but we have access to a glut of spells that make redundant Snapcasters more effective -- 4 Bolt, 2-4 Helix, possibly Electrolyze or Cryptic depending on the list, in addition to the cheap counterspells and 4 Path that are present in any other control deck. Even flsahing back Serum is a lot better in Jeskai since the tempo is just as relevant as the impact of the card being cast. This is why Jeskai tends to play 3-4 Snapcasters -- he will basically always be relevant, and never too redundant.
No, man. You wrote something *totally* different: alias, that most of the UW decklists run/should run 3-4 Snapcaster Mage. This is simply false, and you're just refusing to admit your mistake. Calling yourself an "high-level pilot" also doesn't add much to the debate, sorry. I already said that there are lists with a more tiny manacurve, but that doesn't really justify playing four Snappy. Nor those decklists are competitive in the current metagame, as results indicate.
Your "I know what I'm doing, you're all wrong" attitude is kind of annoying, tbh.
You're better off ignoring him/her and/or consulting a moderator.
Here's a low to the ground Jeskai Nahiri list I've been sculpting for a while now. The deck is favored against Death's Shadow and all the normal aggro decks but has major game against Eldrazi Tron as well with multiple main deck wraths and a stacked sideboard.
I'm happy to see you also playing Queller; I think that card solves a lot of Jeskai's problems. Why did you go for 4 Remands?
Snaps are just very reliant on deck construction.
Most of the more drawgo jeskai lists do not really get all that much out of snap.
In lists built to take advantage of him, hes clearly amazing.
If I were allowed to play 8, I might, but I wouldnt be playing nahiri, I wouldnt be playing drawgo, I wouldnt be playing saheeli, I would be playing a list to maximize snapcaster.
There is so much undervaluing happening here. I love flashing back Serum Visions and Mana Leaks. You don't even need to run cards like Condemn or Spell Snare to justify more than 2. The only reason for cutting Snapercaster Mage is, in my opinion, that the deck becomes overly susceptible to Chalice of the Void set on 1.
I don't know man. Yeah, flashing back Leaks is good when it happens, but there's only 2 Leaks on average in UW (and a Negate). So it doesn't happen very often. As far as Serum is concerned, I'm not sure a control deck want to toss away a Snapcaster for a Serum Visions rebuy... I mean, sure Serum's a good card, but it's not THAT good. Like I said, the mindset that highly values Snapping back Serum is usually backed by the tempo of it, not the utility. You don't Snap-Serum unless it's gonna give you a clock (or unless you'll lose without a Verdict/Cryptic). I'll remind you that this is from a UW mindset.
In Jeskai, Snap-Serum is far more defensible because Jeskai actively wants to start pressuring the opponent with Snapmage (something that doesn't typically happen in UW unless vs. Combo) and plays extra Snapcasters for that purpose -- you don't necessarily care what you're flashing back. Personally, I have no faith in Snap-beats in this meta, which is why I've moved away from both playing 4 Snapcasters and from Jeskai in general.
As a side note, I also have become increasingly impressed with Queller. It may be the real deal in Jeskai.
No, man. You wrote something *totally* different: alias, that most of the UW decklists run/should run 3-4 Snapcaster Mage. This is simply false, and you're just refusing to admit your mistake. Calling yourself an "high-level pilot" also doesn't add much to the debate, sorry. I already said that there are lists with a more tiny manacurve, but that doesn't really justify playing four Snappy. Nor those decklists are competitive in the current metagame, as results indicate.
Your "I know what I'm doing, you're all wrong" attitude is kind of annoying, tbh.
You seem to think just because people are doing something right now that it's correct. Last I checked the Death Shadow deck could have been beating people up for many years but people failed to see that it was a good card. It's a bit annoying that you think the small sample size of current UW decks somehow have found the perfect list.
Here's a low to the ground Jeskai Nahiri list I've been sculpting for a while now. The deck is favored against Death's Shadow and all the normal aggro decks but has major game against Eldrazi Tron as well with multiple main deck wraths and a stacked sideboard.
I'm happy to see you also playing Queller; I think that card solves a lot of Jeskai's problems. Why did you go for 4 Remands?
The deck is more focused on the Nahiri plan. Delaying the opponent, cycling and filling the yard for Snap and Logic Knot ends up working well here. And there is the added bonus of being an easy sideout.
On the snapcaster debate, I really like Esper Control's primer, and I think all arguments are applicable to UW Control (even more so than to Esper now that we have Fatal Push):
This is the main point of contention among people developing esper control, how many snapcaster mages is correct? Snapcaster is the best blue card in modern so why wouldn't we want to run a full set of four? There are two reasons. Firstly, we don't run enough copies of lightning bolt. I mean this in both the literal and figurative sense; snapcaster mage is at its best when you're able to abuse it in the early game to get ahead on value and tempo; lightning bolt is the marquee card to pair with it. Not only does esper control not play lightning bolt, we don't have enough other "cheap" (one or two mana) interactive spells to reliably abuse snapcaster mage in the early game; Tiago exists in our deck primarily as a flexible value tool for the midgame, not a way to lock down the early game the same way delver, twin, and UWR control use it.
The second reason is that we already tax our graveyard heavily. White Sun's Zenith shuffles itself back in on resolution, logic knot demands a healthy graveyard to remain live for the entire game, think twice already has flashback, and we tend to not play as many fetches as the UR decks. All of this leads to esper having much greater constraints on its graveyard, constraints that are hard to work around with more snapcaster mages.
1. The first one is virtually a freebie to run, but each one that you add in is worse than the first. This also includes making logic knot worse and snapcster mages not as good with such heavy competition for the same resource.
2. If you want to run multiples of them you must build your deck to support it. This means trimming your flashback spells and snapcaster mages, or increasing the number of cheap disruption spells you run.
3. You'll want to run the full set of 8 fetchlands to help enable multiple copies. As many lists already run that many, this might not be a large concern.
Ultimatums don't get you very far in deck design so I won't say that 4 snap is a 100% MUST have, but in Jeskai if my list runs too few relevant spells to play all 4 snapcasters, I don't remove snapcasters, I add more spells.
Ultimatums don't get you very far in deck design so I won't say that 4 snap is a 100% MUST have, but in Jeskai if my list runs too few relevant spells to play all 4 snapcasters, I don't remove snapcasters, I add more spells.
Yes, but this is only particularly viable for Jeskai decks because the extra spells you're adding to support Snappy also give you a heavy tempo gameplan (Helixes, Electrolyze). In most other decks, since you're not able to throw your removal spells at the opponent's face, there's no real point to trying to maximize Snapcasters -- a 2/1 isn't going to win the game by itself without burn in the deck.
Yes absolutely, I was exclusively talking about Jeskai. The same could arguably be said for Grixis, but for esper and UW 4 snaps probably get in the way as you do not have enough relevant spells to flashback for creaturelight matchups
I got the first post back, so I'll be adding bits and pieces to the old OP. What would people here like to see added?
As of now the primer is mostly Nahiri based, given how broad of a term Jeskai Control has become I will not go that in depth on all subtypes. Right now I'm writing up some paragraphs on why to choose which subtype
All suggestions are appreciated, although with my own limited time I can't guarantee everything will be added
With Jonathan Rosum's great finish at SCG Syracuse this past weekend, I decided to give his sweet Jeskai "fusion" build a try on MTGO and recorded them for your enjoyment. You can find the first of 3 matches here: Jeskai Control w/ Geist and Queller Videos.
The list performed splendidly, with only minor changes made the manabase and sideboard. I faced up against UR Gifts Storm, RG Titanshift, and KCI Combo, all of which are not the ideal matchups for Jeskai Control, but the deck showed its strength and versatility in playing multiple different roles based on the matchup. I urge you guys to check it out as I think the deck tackles some unexplored territory for Jeskai!
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Check out some Magic Gameplay and Commentary videos here, including Modern Grixis, Jeskai, and Esper videos as well as some Standard and Drafts too: My YouTube Channel!
I played almost Rossum's exact 75 (had to guess a few cards, I was off by 3) at a PPTQ on Sunday and made it to the finals. I'll gladly share my report here if anyone's interested.
As someone considering moving that direction, I'd definitely be interested. I especially need someone to sell me on the Spell Quellers. They've always seemed so fragile and seem to "turn on" an opponent's otherwise impotent removal.
As someone considering moving that direction, I'd definitely be interested. I especially need someone to sell me on the Spell Quellers. They've always seemed so fragile and seem to "turn on" an opponent's otherwise impotent removal.
I'll address this fully when I do my writeup tonight, but I felt just like you for a long time. I basically always played them in a 4 Geist, 2ish Queller list, and I think that was actually incorrect. They were far better than I anticipated.
Queller is great, I've been advocating it for a while now. The card does take a little finesse though, and you have to consider what would happen if your opponent kills it. Ideally, you counter something that makes them tap out, so queller is at least a timewalk.
A little queller trick that has won me some games; if you MUST counter a spell and fear your opponent has removal, you can cast queller, target the spell you need to counter, and then kill queller with its ability on the stack. This leaves the spell in permanent exile. You have to 2 for 1 yourself, but it's won me games I would've lost otherwise (exiling a scapeshift when I knew my opponent had a lightning bolt in hand etc).
I've tinkered with Quellers before, just never in Jeskai Control. They're on my list of things to try, but it'd also be helpful to see details on how someone has (successfully) used them.
That's part of a bigger question that's been bouncing around my head from seeing Rossum's list -- isn't it very tempo-ish? I'm not asking because I'm worried about the "purity" of control; I'm wondering if I'm leaving percentage points on the table by playing Jeskai too much like UW. That influences deck choices (valuing Remand, Hellkite, ETB tapped lands, etc.) but also a lot of in-game decisions.
Let me pose that as a couple of hypotheticals. In most matches are you:
Using an early Snapcaster for value (flashback Bolt to face EOT3) to start chipping away or holding for a higher ceiling play (flashback Cryptic T6+)?
Flashing in Spell Queller to snag something you may have another answer for already in hand (Goyf when holding Path) to similarly chip away or hold for a higher ceiling?
Throwing burn at a somewhat creature-heavy opponent's face or saving for use as removal?
Playing Celestial Colonnade as your last land (T3+) to stay on early curve or playing immediately to ensure full mana availability on T3/4?
My instinct has been to go with the latter in all three. That's definitely the UW mentality, but is it how I should be playing a Jeskai list like Rossum's?
I just watched the top 8 Jeskai match from SCG Syracuse where Rossum got eaten by Eldrazi Tron. Question for the Jeskai Queller pilots: how bad is the matchup exactly? It looks pretty disgusting. What Karn doesn't hit, All is Dust does. They have Thought-Knot Seer as a better Vendilion Clique to eat answers for the big threats--either by being countered or by taking something with its ability--and Reality Smasher and Matter Reshaper to grind. Queller certainly seems great against the lower part of the curve, but the higher part--ballista, all is dust, karn--seems to disregard it. I have thought about giving the deck a shot, but seeing it crumple on camera like that gives me misgivings.
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I can attest to this as far as UW is concerned. The vast majority of UW decks play 2 Snapcasters.
The issue is that there are 2 different schools of thought on Snapcaster -- some lean on him as a form of tempo (i.e. a spell plus a 2/1 body), others see him as pure utility (a way to flashback any spell from you graveyard). In UW, the only spells worth flashing back tend to be Path, Blessed Alliance, or Cryptic. Occasionally, you'll have the ability to flashback a Leak or Knot, and it'll be good, but it's not really a huge play; and flashing back Serum is pretty lackluster in UW. In addition, a 2/1 body means next to nothing to UW -- the best thing Snappy does is block and trade unless you Cryptic him back to hand somehow. Thus, UW is only playing Snappy for the second school of thought -- pure utility, which is why they play 2 as a sort of catch-all, since it otherwise gets redundant.
Jeskai, on the other hand, takes full advantage of both schools of thought. Not only can a 2/1 body be very relevant in Jeskai, but we have access to a glut of spells that make redundant Snapcasters more effective -- 4 Bolt, 2-4 Helix, possibly Electrolyze or Cryptic depending on the list, in addition to the cheap counterspells and 4 Path that are present in any other control deck. Even flsahing back Serum is a lot better in Jeskai since the tempo is just as relevant as the impact of the card being cast. This is why Jeskai tends to play 3-4 Snapcasters -- he will basically always be relevant, and never too redundant.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
You're better off ignoring him/her and/or consulting a moderator.
I'm happy to see you also playing Queller; I think that card solves a lot of Jeskai's problems. Why did you go for 4 Remands?
Most of the more drawgo jeskai lists do not really get all that much out of snap.
In lists built to take advantage of him, hes clearly amazing.
If I were allowed to play 8, I might, but I wouldnt be playing nahiri, I wouldnt be playing drawgo, I wouldnt be playing saheeli, I would be playing a list to maximize snapcaster.
I don't know man. Yeah, flashing back Leaks is good when it happens, but there's only 2 Leaks on average in UW (and a Negate). So it doesn't happen very often. As far as Serum is concerned, I'm not sure a control deck want to toss away a Snapcaster for a Serum Visions rebuy... I mean, sure Serum's a good card, but it's not THAT good. Like I said, the mindset that highly values Snapping back Serum is usually backed by the tempo of it, not the utility. You don't Snap-Serum unless it's gonna give you a clock (or unless you'll lose without a Verdict/Cryptic). I'll remind you that this is from a UW mindset.
In Jeskai, Snap-Serum is far more defensible because Jeskai actively wants to start pressuring the opponent with Snapmage (something that doesn't typically happen in UW unless vs. Combo) and plays extra Snapcasters for that purpose -- you don't necessarily care what you're flashing back. Personally, I have no faith in Snap-beats in this meta, which is why I've moved away from both playing 4 Snapcasters and from Jeskai in general.
As a side note, I also have become increasingly impressed with Queller. It may be the real deal in Jeskai.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
You seem to think just because people are doing something right now that it's correct. Last I checked the Death Shadow deck could have been beating people up for many years but people failed to see that it was a good card. It's a bit annoying that you think the small sample size of current UW decks somehow have found the perfect list.
The deck is more focused on the Nahiri plan. Delaying the opponent, cycling and filling the yard for Snap and Logic Knot ends up working well here. And there is the added bonus of being an easy sideout.
UWGBant EldraziUWGDecided I don't like Todd Stevens decks.UBRGrixis ControlUBR
UUUAnd anything that plays 4x Cryptic CommandUUU
Yes, but this is only particularly viable for Jeskai decks because the extra spells you're adding to support Snappy also give you a heavy tempo gameplan (Helixes, Electrolyze). In most other decks, since you're not able to throw your removal spells at the opponent's face, there's no real point to trying to maximize Snapcasters -- a 2/1 isn't going to win the game by itself without burn in the deck.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
As of now the primer is mostly Nahiri based, given how broad of a term Jeskai Control has become I will not go that in depth on all subtypes. Right now I'm writing up some paragraphs on why to choose which subtype
All suggestions are appreciated, although with my own limited time I can't guarantee everything will be added
The list performed splendidly, with only minor changes made the manabase and sideboard. I faced up against UR Gifts Storm, RG Titanshift, and KCI Combo, all of which are not the ideal matchups for Jeskai Control, but the deck showed its strength and versatility in playing multiple different roles based on the matchup. I urge you guys to check it out as I think the deck tackles some unexplored territory for Jeskai!
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
I'll address this fully when I do my writeup tonight, but I felt just like you for a long time. I basically always played them in a 4 Geist, 2ish Queller list, and I think that was actually incorrect. They were far better than I anticipated.
UW Control
UWR Geist
UWR Control
A little queller trick that has won me some games; if you MUST counter a spell and fear your opponent has removal, you can cast queller, target the spell you need to counter, and then kill queller with its ability on the stack. This leaves the spell in permanent exile. You have to 2 for 1 yourself, but it's won me games I would've lost otherwise (exiling a scapeshift when I knew my opponent had a lightning bolt in hand etc).
That's part of a bigger question that's been bouncing around my head from seeing Rossum's list -- isn't it very tempo-ish? I'm not asking because I'm worried about the "purity" of control; I'm wondering if I'm leaving percentage points on the table by playing Jeskai too much like UW. That influences deck choices (valuing Remand, Hellkite, ETB tapped lands, etc.) but also a lot of in-game decisions.
Let me pose that as a couple of hypotheticals. In most matches are you:
My instinct has been to go with the latter in all three. That's definitely the UW mentality, but is it how I should be playing a Jeskai list like Rossum's?