I don't see why not... You also run 4x Delve counterspells, and your spells all basically do the same thing. Who cares what you bin? The card velocity, Snap targets, and potential mana you gain to feed into a Logic Knot seems totally worth it.
Thought Scour is a cheap cantrip so it's rarely incorrect to play it, but the payoff is very small. If I'd play a Quelle rburn list, I'd just run a 2-2 split of Knot/Leak.
The issue I have with the burn queller list is that, from my experience with this kind of deck, it is often a guessing game whether you should go to the face or kill creatures. You're not gonna have the full 20 points of damage in hand so you'll have to guess whether your topdecks beat their clock or whether you should aim your burn at their creatures. Burn can do this because two thirds of their deck basically reads the same. Burn Queller makes up for that with card advantage, but burn spells are poor removal against many decks right now so you often end up using cryptic as a fog to try and draw into lethal burn.
Personally I'm following what Harlan Firer is doing in the last couple months he has had really impressive results with his Geist-Control version (in the last event, he swapped Geist for Quellers). He is playing something very similar to Tamada but usually he runs Geist over Queller. I think that's a correct choice 'cause Queller being our only creature other than Snap means it's usually just going to die while Geist protects itself. Queller really shines in decks like Bant CoCo where there's an overabundance of targets for removals. But I guess regardless of whether you chose to play Queller or Geist, that's the best Jeskai Control list. 4x of everything, no Ancestral Vision, no maindeck Spreading Seas, no Nahiri. Like I said, it's the best Jeskai Control list. But I don't know whether it's the best Jeskai list. 'Cause Copycat is for real. It requires a different playstyle but I think that in many regards, it's a better deck than UR Twin was.
You think that Jeskai Copycat is better than Twin was? That's a bold statement, and I honestly have a hard time believing it. Twin warped the format by forcing everyone to have specific answers. Jeskai copycat seems like a fun deck, and I'd like it to be good, but I doubt that it's great right now.
The reason I don't like spell queller tempo builds of Jeskai right now is that (in my amateur opinion; I've only played about 80 games with Jeskai Nahiri so far) it doesn't deal with big creature decks super well right now. Two of the top decks, Eldrazi tron and grixis death's shadow, are both big creature decks. I think that the main reason to be playing neither of these decks right now is supreme verdict. It kills all of the threats out of GDS and most of the creatures from Eldrazi tron outright. Can't be chaliced, can't be stubbornly denied. It's bad against the Karn draws, but we have counterspells for that. Indeed, I presently have 2x Ceremonious rejection. Verdict can be thoughtseized, but that goes for most every answer in the format. Geist and Queller just don't go well with Supreme verdict.
I grant that every version of jeskai has path to exile, which unconditionally kills stuff, but having an additional 3-4 cards that sweep up any mess just puts it over the top for me.
So I'm only really comfortable cosigning Jeskai Nahiri and draw-go at this point.
I have been having really good luck with the old Jeskai Nahiri style of this deck in my local tournaments. All of these death shadow decks and a lot of the current metagame is so focused on building their board presence that supreme verdicts and well timed creature removal seems to close games for me. I tried the Geist lists but often they are just able to block him and either just take 4 off the angel or fatal push the token leaving me with nothing.
I will say that I still run the geist in the sideboard to race combo decks and that works but I feel like Nahiri & Emrakul are still effective
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I agree about the Queller list not being good enough. To me it works as a subpar burn deck in which you simply don't have enough burn spells. Not to mention Queller is extremely weak in this strategy.
Bearscape: Do you run the full four quellers main with Nahiri? If so, how does that affect your density of Snapcaster targets?
Zcowan: Could I get your list? If not, could you tell me what your removal/burn packages look like?
On Queller, I'd like to trade into some at some point to try them out against tron and valakut. Seems great against GB tron, since brutality doesn't deal with it and you can queller their sylvan scrying or map.
As I said when I last posted this list, Quellers greatly overperform. I put two geists back in the side again, and split the spreading seas 2 main 2 side as they were often mediocre game 1 but I do still want to run all 4; 2 main is still randomly good versus manlands, township et al. without a playset to clog up your hand you can hold onto them to actually use them on relevant targets
My mainboard is:
4x Nahiri, the Harbinger
1x Emrakul
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Electrolyze
3x Lightning Helix
2x Cryptic Command
2x Remand
2x Supreme Verdict
4x Serum Visions
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Mana Leak
1x Logic Knot
2x Faithless Looting
1x Sphinx's Revelation
Then Lands
And My Sideboard:
4x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Stony Silence
2x Dispel
1x Counterflux
1x Rest in Peace
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Crumble to Dust
1x Negate
1x Wear/Tear
I went 3-1 in tonight with the list with strong success of 2-0 against Grixis Death Shadow, UB Faeries, and Grixis Control. My only though matchup was Affinity which came down to a close game three.
If anyone has any questions on my deckbuild, I know it seems all over the place in writing but there are reasonings behind what I run. I've owned and played the deck for over two years now so this has been tweaked many times
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You seem to only be playing 22 lands, that seems quite low given that you're playing verdicts, cryptics, nahiris, and snap is likely casting a lot of two+ cmc spells.
Faithless looting is also very out of place. It does fuel delve and lets you ditch emrakul, but do you think its better than izzet charm and/or sleight of hand? Why?
You seem a bit low on dredge hate (I'm guessing its a hard matchup?)
Keranos has always felt so bad in jeskai nahiri, IMO. Is he really doing things for you that gideon jura/of the trials, or big elspeth wouldn't do better?
Crumble has also fallen out of favor as the anti-big mana card.
Spreading seas comes down earlier, as does molten rain.
Against eldrazi tron, rejection seems great (and splashes over vs affinity, letting you ditch stonys if you aren't scared of lantern).
You do miss out some against titanshift, but cutting the stonys and crumble for rejection/seas could do some work.
Many people also like a split between clique and geist. I personally have always liked clique better in our bad matchups. Given that you have 4 slots devoted, why no split? Do you want to be able to do full jeskai-geist post board? Does clique's disruption (on an axis that we don't normally get) not appeal to you enough?
My mainboard is:
4x Nahiri, the Harbinger
1x Emrakul
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Electrolyze
3x Lightning Helix
2x Cryptic Command
2x Remand
2x Supreme Verdict
4x Serum Visions
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Mana Leak
1x Logic Knot
2x Faithless Looting
1x Sphinx's Revelation
Then Lands
And My Sideboard:
4x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Stony Silence
2x Dispel
1x Counterflux
1x Rest in Peace
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Crumble to Dust
1x Negate
1x Wear/Tear
I went 3-1 in tonight with the list with strong success of 2-0 against Grixis Death Shadow, UB Faeries, and Grixis Control. My only though matchup was Affinity which came down to a close game three.
If anyone has any questions on my deckbuild, I know it seems all over the place in writing but there are reasonings behind what I run. I've owned and played the deck for over two years now so this has been tweaked many times
Why remand? I've been consistently unimpressed by the card, especially against burn, affinity, and death's shadow.
Sphinx's rev with Nahiri? Please explain.
Electrolyze? It's a sweet card, but is it truly good?
Hey guys to tackle a few of the things.. I actually run 61 cards.. so 23 lands.. I think that I will end up cutting Sphinx's revelation as it has started to underperform with things like Stubborn Denial being a thing now. As for faithless looting: It has the added perks you mentioned however it also works as a better 5th and 6th serum visions for opening hands.. It allows you to keep a good hand low on mana and dig far enough on turn one. It also helps late game as an additional resource to dig your deck for a response to their end game.
Dredge is a tough matchup but something not really seen in my local area so I cut back on it. Other modern decks I run are much better at graveyard hate however the rest in peace in there usually does the trick because I see more of living end. As for your mentions about Keranos and Crumble to Dust, you are absolutely right. They are two cards that need to come out haha I noticed that tonight. The reason I have been hesitant against Keranos is because of decks like Lantern Control. It gives you a way to win despite their top- deck disruption and ensnaring bridges.
With the clique.. I ran him for a really long time and realized that he was dying far too often as opposed to Geist which when resolved is nearly impossible to get rid of. At only 1 toughness, Clique's ability is cute in acting like a Thoughtseize for our color but he dies to literally every creature removal in modern lol.
Now for @JohnSwift:
With remand, I just added it back a month ago and still like it in the deck. With my version of the Nahiri list I'm not trying to be full lock down control. The idea is to allow Nahiri to ultimate or get enough burn in through spells and snap caster to win. With remand it buys you a turn on their big plays and the card draw keeps you going. (Between 4 serum visions, 2 electrolyze, Sphinx's Revelation, 2 Faithless Looting, etc.. I wanted to have enough utility spells that allowed me to continue drawing into more answers)
As mentioned above, I think the Sphinx's Revelation has to come out. Now that I am seeing more control builds and whatnot and Stubborn Denial/Logic Knot are so good at countering, it isn't as safe as it used to be. A while back I would find myself with a board full of lands but my hand would be dry so I added it then as a way of resetting the life total and the hand, and it sort of became a pet card of mine since I loved it in standard lol.
And electrolyze is still amazing! I was so against it, and I remember a while back in this forum people debated about how good it was. I find that there are so many matches when two damage divided goes a long way. Just tonight at Super FNM it killed too 1/1 Death Shadow put on the board too early with nothing to protect them, destroyed affinity, and went to work on Vendillion Cliques when the guy was tapped out. It isn't effective as a burn spell directed entirely at them but it does remove a lot of threats on the board in the current metagame and the "draw a card" is also very helpful!
Hope these insights helped.. typing it all up, I am going to drop Sphinx's Revelation and will probably adjust my sideboard slightly. I definitely think I'll keep the stony silences because they save you from Relic and other sideboard hate your opponent may bring in but I may add ceremonious rejection since early chalice of the void can be dangerous with the amount of one drop spells in our decks.
One of electrolyze's strengths is against x/4s and x/5s. We normally would have to 2 for 1 ourselves to kill these with bolt, but electrolyze is card neutral, so we can 2 for 2 instead.
@ax92, yeah I think the general principles stay the same for the deck but in my area there are too many people running decks with one drop counterspells that shut off my sphinx's revelation and you end up waiting too many turns to have an opportunity to cast it. I am experimenting right now with Geists in the mainboard and Nahiri in the side and I think it could actually fit into that play style since I have extra space with dropping one supreme verdict.
Also, to go in further about the electrolyze. I feel like with the fast pace of the modern metagame right now, having one for one answers doesn't cut it anymore. Path of exile and lightning bolt are excellent cards and I obviously will continue using them... however, these other decks in the format are able to bounce back from a creature removal spell or counter way too quickly. That's why the "draw a card" mechanic is so important in how I tweaked the deck. I feel like you need to be able to counter and draw or bolt and draw. That way you keep the engine going and always have a hand full of responses. It's funny because the other day I played against Grixis Control and I had him so out of options that he kept delving his entire graveyard to cast the same Tasigur several times. I know remand seems like a dead card but in these situations it is incredible because it A)Keeps you drawing and B)Leaves him with the option of giving up on the Tasigur or having to continue sinking mana and graveyard resources.
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Hi all, I just wanted to state that the Queller version still feels strong. I placed 1st in a small PPTQ yesterday (only 27) using a list essentially the same as this one: UWR Flash. The only differences were -1 Spirebluff for +1 Desolate Lighthouse and -1 Logic Knot for 1 Remand. I was a little worried about the addition of a colorless land, but it never caused a problem in the matches that day. I played against Grixis Shadow, UR Storm, Knightfall, Burn, UR Storm, and GR Tron. All matches were 2-0 with the exception of Burn (which is always close!).
Highlight of the day was against the burn deck in the T8. I'm at 4 with a Spell Queller that has a Boros Charm under it and the burn opponent is at 8. My opponent's hand is all gas, but he has only had two lands to work with. Instead of going for the kill on his turn on which I only have a Steam Vents and Flooded Strand up, he let's me untap and draw. I draw an Electrolyze to match with my two bolts and go to attacks. He casts Lightning Helix on the Queller to go for the kill, and I'm able to Lyze+Bolt+Bolt for the win!
I think in this version of the deck Electrolyze is very important. It not only lets you gain incremental advantage when killing small creatures, it also chips away at your opponent's lifetotal without costing you a card. That's extremely relevant for a deck that wants to enable a bolt-snap-bolt finish. If you're playing a slower build with more powerful win-cons, then I could see the card being less useful (though I still think it's good).
There's a UWR build I'm curious about though that seems to be doing well online in the hands of habakiri: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/716363#online . It's built very similarly to the UW decks that have been successful lately, with red being added only for Helix, Electrolyze, and sideboard cards. It seems crazy to play red without lightning bolt, but it's hard to argue with his/her results. What do you all think?
Hi all, I just wanted to state that the Queller version still feels strong. I placed 1st in a small PPTQ yesterday (only 27) using a list essentially the same as this one: UWR Flash. The only differences were -1 Spirebluff for +1 Desolate Lighthouse and -1 Logic Knot for 1 Remand. I was a little worried about the addition of a colorless land, but it never caused a problem in the matches that day. I played against Grixis Shadow, UR Storm, Knightfall, Burn, UR Storm, and GR Tron. All matches were 2-0 with the exception of Burn (which is always close!).
Highlight of the day was against the burn deck in the T8. I'm at 4 with a Spell Queller that has a Boros Charm under it and the burn opponent is at 8. My opponent's hand is all gas, but he has only had two lands to work with. Instead of going for the kill on his turn on which I only have a Steam Vents and Flooded Strand up, he let's me untap and draw. I draw an Electrolyze to match with my two bolts and go to attacks. He casts Lightning Helix on the Queller to go for the kill, and I'm able to Lyze+Bolt+Bolt for the win!
I think in this version of the deck Electrolyze is very important. It not only lets you gain incremental advantage when killing small creatures, it also chips away at your opponent's lifetotal without costing you a card. That's extremely relevant for a deck that wants to enable a bolt-snap-bolt finish. If you're playing a slower build with more powerful win-cons, then I could see the card being less useful (though I still think it's good).
There's a UWR build I'm curious about though that seems to be doing well online in the hands of habakiri: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/716363#online . It's built very similarly to the UW decks that have been successful lately, with red being added only for Helix, Electrolyze, and sideboard cards. It seems crazy to play red without lightning bolt, but it's hard to argue with his/her results. What do you all think?
Deck looks great. I want to try it.
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The issue I have with the burn queller list is that, from my experience with this kind of deck, it is often a guessing game whether you should go to the face or kill creatures. You're not gonna have the full 20 points of damage in hand so you'll have to guess whether your topdecks beat their clock or whether you should aim your burn at their creatures. Burn can do this because two thirds of their deck basically reads the same. Burn Queller makes up for that with card advantage, but burn spells are poor removal against many decks right now so you often end up using cryptic as a fog to try and draw into lethal burn.
You cannot be serious. UR Twin was miles ahead of Saheeli. Not even in the same realm.
Spirits
You think that Jeskai Copycat is better than Twin was? That's a bold statement, and I honestly have a hard time believing it. Twin warped the format by forcing everyone to have specific answers. Jeskai copycat seems like a fun deck, and I'd like it to be good, but I doubt that it's great right now.
The reason I don't like spell queller tempo builds of Jeskai right now is that (in my amateur opinion; I've only played about 80 games with Jeskai Nahiri so far) it doesn't deal with big creature decks super well right now. Two of the top decks, Eldrazi tron and grixis death's shadow, are both big creature decks. I think that the main reason to be playing neither of these decks right now is supreme verdict. It kills all of the threats out of GDS and most of the creatures from Eldrazi tron outright. Can't be chaliced, can't be stubbornly denied. It's bad against the Karn draws, but we have counterspells for that. Indeed, I presently have 2x Ceremonious rejection. Verdict can be thoughtseized, but that goes for most every answer in the format. Geist and Queller just don't go well with Supreme verdict.
I grant that every version of jeskai has path to exile, which unconditionally kills stuff, but having an additional 3-4 cards that sweep up any mess just puts it over the top for me.
So I'm only really comfortable cosigning Jeskai Nahiri and draw-go at this point.
I will say that I still run the geist in the sideboard to race combo decks and that works but I feel like Nahiri & Emrakul are still effective
I agree about the Queller list not being good enough. To me it works as a subpar burn deck in which you simply don't have enough burn spells. Not to mention Queller is extremely weak in this strategy.
Zcowan: Could I get your list? If not, could you tell me what your removal/burn packages look like?
On Queller, I'd like to trade into some at some point to try them out against tron and valakut. Seems great against GB tron, since brutality doesn't deal with it and you can queller their sylvan scrying or map.
// 10 Creature
4 Spell Queller
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Vendilion Clique
// 3 Enchantment
2 Spreading Seas
1 Cast Out
// 16 Instant
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
1 Negate
1 Spell Snare
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Tectonic Edge
// 4 Planeswalker
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Serum Visions
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Rest in Peace
2 Spreading Seas
1 Negate
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Dispel
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Anger of the Gods
As I said when I last posted this list, Quellers greatly overperform. I put two geists back in the side again, and split the spreading seas 2 main 2 side as they were often mediocre game 1 but I do still want to run all 4; 2 main is still randomly good versus manlands, township et al. without a playset to clog up your hand you can hold onto them to actually use them on relevant targets
My mainboard is:
4x Nahiri, the Harbinger
1x Emrakul
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Electrolyze
3x Lightning Helix
2x Cryptic Command
2x Remand
2x Supreme Verdict
4x Serum Visions
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Mana Leak
1x Logic Knot
2x Faithless Looting
1x Sphinx's Revelation
Then Lands
And My Sideboard:
4x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Stony Silence
2x Dispel
1x Counterflux
1x Rest in Peace
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Crumble to Dust
1x Negate
1x Wear/Tear
I went 3-1 in tonight with the list with strong success of 2-0 against Grixis Death Shadow, UB Faeries, and Grixis Control. My only though matchup was Affinity which came down to a close game three.
If anyone has any questions on my deckbuild, I know it seems all over the place in writing but there are reasonings behind what I run. I've owned and played the deck for over two years now so this has been tweaked many times
Spirits
Faithless looting is also very out of place. It does fuel delve and lets you ditch emrakul, but do you think its better than izzet charm and/or sleight of hand? Why?
You seem a bit low on dredge hate (I'm guessing its a hard matchup?)
Keranos has always felt so bad in jeskai nahiri, IMO. Is he really doing things for you that gideon jura/of the trials, or big elspeth wouldn't do better?
Crumble has also fallen out of favor as the anti-big mana card.
Spreading seas comes down earlier, as does molten rain.
Against eldrazi tron, rejection seems great (and splashes over vs affinity, letting you ditch stonys if you aren't scared of lantern).
You do miss out some against titanshift, but cutting the stonys and crumble for rejection/seas could do some work.
Many people also like a split between clique and geist. I personally have always liked clique better in our bad matchups. Given that you have 4 slots devoted, why no split? Do you want to be able to do full jeskai-geist post board? Does clique's disruption (on an axis that we don't normally get) not appeal to you enough?
Why remand? I've been consistently unimpressed by the card, especially against burn, affinity, and death's shadow.
Sphinx's rev with Nahiri? Please explain.
Electrolyze? It's a sweet card, but is it truly good?
Dredge is a tough matchup but something not really seen in my local area so I cut back on it. Other modern decks I run are much better at graveyard hate however the rest in peace in there usually does the trick because I see more of living end. As for your mentions about Keranos and Crumble to Dust, you are absolutely right. They are two cards that need to come out haha I noticed that tonight. The reason I have been hesitant against Keranos is because of decks like Lantern Control. It gives you a way to win despite their top- deck disruption and ensnaring bridges.
With the clique.. I ran him for a really long time and realized that he was dying far too often as opposed to Geist which when resolved is nearly impossible to get rid of. At only 1 toughness, Clique's ability is cute in acting like a Thoughtseize for our color but he dies to literally every creature removal in modern lol.
Now for @JohnSwift:
With remand, I just added it back a month ago and still like it in the deck. With my version of the Nahiri list I'm not trying to be full lock down control. The idea is to allow Nahiri to ultimate or get enough burn in through spells and snap caster to win. With remand it buys you a turn on their big plays and the card draw keeps you going. (Between 4 serum visions, 2 electrolyze, Sphinx's Revelation, 2 Faithless Looting, etc.. I wanted to have enough utility spells that allowed me to continue drawing into more answers)
As mentioned above, I think the Sphinx's Revelation has to come out. Now that I am seeing more control builds and whatnot and Stubborn Denial/Logic Knot are so good at countering, it isn't as safe as it used to be. A while back I would find myself with a board full of lands but my hand would be dry so I added it then as a way of resetting the life total and the hand, and it sort of became a pet card of mine since I loved it in standard lol.
And electrolyze is still amazing! I was so against it, and I remember a while back in this forum people debated about how good it was. I find that there are so many matches when two damage divided goes a long way. Just tonight at Super FNM it killed too 1/1 Death Shadow put on the board too early with nothing to protect them, destroyed affinity, and went to work on Vendillion Cliques when the guy was tapped out. It isn't effective as a burn spell directed entirely at them but it does remove a lot of threats on the board in the current metagame and the "draw a card" is also very helpful!
Hope these insights helped.. typing it all up, I am going to drop Sphinx's Revelation and will probably adjust my sideboard slightly. I definitely think I'll keep the stony silences because they save you from Relic and other sideboard hate your opponent may bring in but I may add ceremonious rejection since early chalice of the void can be dangerous with the amount of one drop spells in our decks.
Also, to go in further about the electrolyze. I feel like with the fast pace of the modern metagame right now, having one for one answers doesn't cut it anymore. Path of exile and lightning bolt are excellent cards and I obviously will continue using them... however, these other decks in the format are able to bounce back from a creature removal spell or counter way too quickly. That's why the "draw a card" mechanic is so important in how I tweaked the deck. I feel like you need to be able to counter and draw or bolt and draw. That way you keep the engine going and always have a hand full of responses. It's funny because the other day I played against Grixis Control and I had him so out of options that he kept delving his entire graveyard to cast the same Tasigur several times. I know remand seems like a dead card but in these situations it is incredible because it A)Keeps you drawing and B)Leaves him with the option of giving up on the Tasigur or having to continue sinking mana and graveyard resources.
Highlight of the day was against the burn deck in the T8. I'm at 4 with a Spell Queller that has a Boros Charm under it and the burn opponent is at 8. My opponent's hand is all gas, but he has only had two lands to work with. Instead of going for the kill on his turn on which I only have a Steam Vents and Flooded Strand up, he let's me untap and draw. I draw an Electrolyze to match with my two bolts and go to attacks. He casts Lightning Helix on the Queller to go for the kill, and I'm able to Lyze+Bolt+Bolt for the win!
I think in this version of the deck Electrolyze is very important. It not only lets you gain incremental advantage when killing small creatures, it also chips away at your opponent's lifetotal without costing you a card. That's extremely relevant for a deck that wants to enable a bolt-snap-bolt finish. If you're playing a slower build with more powerful win-cons, then I could see the card being less useful (though I still think it's good).
There's a UWR build I'm curious about though that seems to be doing well online in the hands of habakiri: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/716363#online . It's built very similarly to the UW decks that have been successful lately, with red being added only for Helix, Electrolyze, and sideboard cards. It seems crazy to play red without lightning bolt, but it's hard to argue with his/her results. What do you all think?
Deck looks great. I want to try it.