Oh I didn't intend to attack anyone with that comment, I simply think jeskai is the best color combination for control now because UW is strong now and a splash for bolt is basically free
How's the counter package feel in the main? I too am currently playing a "lower" amount of counters (3 knot, 3 cryptic) in the main compared to the average draw go amount of around 8+. Has 7 counters (not counting Clique here) felt solid enough for you when you come up against combo decks? I personally don't feel too unsafe with only 6 maindeck counters and It'd be nice to have a couple more but tbh I prefer playing a bit more cheap removal spells to combat decks like Zoo and Mefolk.
I haven't been happy with Logic Knot recently so I've been playing Mana Leaks and its been so much better. Mana Leak is just better early in the game and that's what my deck needs.
About the paths and helixes, we have a very agressive meta at our lgs and the lifegain is pretty important, i started with all paths main and the helixes in the board biti switched them arround since I always boarded in the helixes and sometimes i rook out there paths for them because i didn't want to give a deck full of cheap creatures extra land and thin their deck, Well mostly all removal goes in against such decks.
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Modern UWG Spirits
Standard UW Control RBU Midrange
Commander UBG Tasigur
Pauper GW Slivers
There are several changes since my last GP. I've removed 2 Sulfur Falls and the Seachrome Coast and added in 2 Spirebluff Canal and an Irrigated Farmland. This adds potential tapped lands but increases my number of T1 blue sources from the previous list.
I've swapped an Anger of the Gods for a Supreme Verdict as I expect much less low to the ground zoo type decks than before. I've cut a Remand to go up to the full 4 Mana Leak as I think the card is slightly worse right now than before but still fills a crucial spot for T2 tempo/disruption. I've cut the 3rd Lightning Helix in place of Castout. This card is very good. Cycle it when the match-up is incorrect, otherwise this sidesteps Abrupt Decay and Inquisition and lets you hold mana up and avoid tapping out. In the sideboard I'm leaning more heavily on Geist as I anticipate more unfair matchups in Kobe and it also works fine against control. Upped the EE count as it's not only a versatile sideboard all-star but it cleans up Death's shadows and Tarmogoyfs, affinity, elves, etc quite well. Added Ajani Vengeant. I wanted to keep my life gain spells at the same 4 count I had previously and this card also can come in for a lot of matchups.
Overall, I like the list and feel good about playing it in a couple weeks.
I think Gideon ot Trials is a bit overrated. He protects himself from only 1 creature, and as a wincon he only beats for 4, his emblem is meh according to me, if you're ahead it's win more, if behind then they just nug the Gideon first before killing you. I like Nahiri alot more because she's gives you card filtering and an awesome endgame, Gideon's endgame is beat you for 4 and maybe colonnade.
But that's just my opinion, please try him out and let us know what you find!
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Modern UWG Spirits
Standard UW Control RBU Midrange
Commander UBG Tasigur
Pauper GW Slivers
There are several changes since my last GP. I've removed 2 Sulfur Falls and the Seachrome Coast and added in 2 Spirebluff Canal and an Irrigated Farmland. This adds potential tapped lands but increases my number of T1 blue sources from the previous list.
I've swapped an Anger of the Gods for a Supreme Verdict as I expect much less low to the ground zoo type decks than before. I've cut a Remand to go up to the full 4 Mana Leak as I think the card is slightly worse right now than before but still fills a crucial spot for T2 tempo/disruption. I've cut the 3rd Lightning Helix in place of Castout. This card is very good. Cycle it when the match-up is incorrect, otherwise this sidesteps Abrupt Decay and Inquisition and lets you hold mana up and avoid tapping out. In the sideboard I'm leaning more heavily on Geist as I anticipate more unfair matchups in Kobe and it also works fine against control. Upped the EE count as it's not only a versatile sideboard all-star but it cleans up Death's shadows and Tarmogoyfs, affinity, elves, etc quite well. Added Ajani Vengeant. I wanted to keep my life gain spells at the same 4 count I had previously and this card also can come in for a lot of matchups.
Overall, I like the list and feel good about playing it in a couple weeks.
Feel free to PM me any questions.
Uhm... Aren't you soft to big-mana decks? I can't remove mine 2SpreadingSeas+1CrumbleToDust from the SB (I also have 2 Geist to speed up the clock)...
I am. I don't know of any Jeskai decks that aren't. I have three Geists and a Crumble in the sideboard. Stony Silence and Ajani can also do work against Tron.
Have reverted back to one of the more original builds of nahiri and find by cutting ancestrals to accomodate the burn strategy with remand and cryptic for tempo to make the deck smoother and the results have been good! Few minor issues I'd like thoughts on.
Dropping the anger from the main for a second electrolyze? Dredge has dropped off but electrolyze fits the burn strategy
Dropping the 3rd island going to 23 land to accomodate 1x sleight of hand? But may be awkward knowing I must hit 4 land
Would 2 logic knott main be better then the mana leaks? Relevant late, can't be snared, filters the grave only downside is it has to have uu and a card in grave to counter on t2
Are the sideboard dispel and wear / tear really that necessary now? Thinking ee and purge with the cryptic bounce mode is relevant enough
1 emrakul the aeons torn
1 vendillion clique
4 snapcaster mage
4 nahiri the harbinger
2 cryptic command
1 anger of the gods
1 electrolyze
2 mana leak
3 remand
3 lightning helix
4 lightning bolt
4 path to exile
4 serum visions
2 spell snare
I think Gideon ot Trials is a bit overrated. He protects himself from only 1 creature, and as a wincon he only beats for 4, his emblem is meh according to me, if you're ahead it's win more, if behind then they just nug the Gideon first before killing you. I like Nahiri alot more because she's gives you card filtering and an awesome endgame, Gideon's endgame is beat you for 4 and maybe colonnade.
But that's just my opinion, please try him out and let us know what you find!
Although I still play Nahiri, I'd be reluctant to bring her to an unknown meta as her costing 4 mana is a big downside right now. Not only are there the obvious risks of playing a 4 mana sorcery, but she also fills up our high end a lot; the Nahiri package already gives you 5 cmc4+ spells (Emrakul does count) which leaves very little room for Cryptic Commands and Supreme Verdicts. Nahiri builds have always been relatively midrangey because of this and going bigger has proven to be better in the current meta if you look at the success of UW builds.
As for your criticisms of Trials Gideon; you are right that the emblem is vastly overrated. It is still very strong against a ton of decks, especially burn and infect, but I see a lot of builds doing silly things with Pacts which are very high risk with not much reward. Your criticism of Gideon's +1 locking out "just one creature" is a little silly though; I dare you to find another cmc3 or even cmc4 planeswalker that can protect itself that well while plussing. You can tap out for gideon into a threat to lock it down, then untap to kill that threat. He's essentially an Oblivion Ring that you can reassign each turn and can help you wait out an AV to draw into answers. The 4 damage clock is also plenty strong enough with how difficult he is to remove and in combination with snapcasters, bolts and colonnades.
I think Gideon ot Trials is a bit overrated. He protects himself from only 1 creature, and as a wincon he only beats for 4, his emblem is meh according to me, if you're ahead it's win more, if behind then they just nug the Gideon first before killing you. I like Nahiri alot more because she's gives you card filtering and an awesome endgame, Gideon's endgame is beat you for 4 and maybe colonnade.
But that's just my opinion, please try him out and let us know what you find!
Well... a planeswalker who protect himself from only one creature... its amazing for me... he cost 3 mana. In a midrange build, your creature can ignore blocker damage. A 4/4 indestructible beater for 3 mana in white is very good IMO. About the emblem...has been great for me in a lot of fair MU (burn, infect, jund, etc), and Ok in te rest. Pact interactions are overrated, but i play 1 pact of negation and was great in a lot of games.
I was testing him in DaT build too, because he run great in midrange list.
Maybe im wrong.... but i buy my playset of GoT for 20 each one.
Sorry for my english
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Modern: Jeskai control / Jeskai Geist
Death and taxes / UW control
I'm also interested in how strong Gideon of the Trials is. Before playing Nahiri I was playing the standard Jeskai planeswalker control deck with Ajani Vengant and Gideon Jura. Gideon was very good against creature decks and was often the final nail in the coffin. With the current Nahiri setup it's much more difficult to fit a 5 mana planeswalker in the deck, but Gideon of the Trials curves nicely into Nahiri while providing reasonable protection. I'm going to playtest with some number of them - probably 1 in main and 1 in side and see how he does. The current list I'm playing runs 3 Supreme Verdicts and less counter magic. Gideon of the Trials would fit nicely into this shell as he forces more commitment to the board for my wraths, and tapping out doesn't hurt me as much as more instant heavy versions of Nahiri.
Before testing I think Gideon would be good against:
-Burn: Preventing damage and stopping Eidolon
-Affinity: good against Master and creature lands as long as they don't have a Plating to move around
-Jund: turning off a Tarmogoyf and making them extend into Supreme Verdict while being a proactive play against Liliana seems good. Of course they also have Abrupt Decay
-Merfolk: Again, forcing them to over extend seems perfect with Wrath effects.
-Eldrazi: Would play a similar role as Liliana in Jund where its great as stopping their giant monsters but a well timed Reality Smasher can end him.
-Ad Nauseum: Basically makes it so they can't win.
I imagine he would be poor against Control and Tron. Can anyone confirm or deny the above from experience?
I think Gideon of the Trials is cute. I don't see how it shores up any matches against this deck's weaknesses. The only match where I want it is against Ad Nauseam.
Against control deck he is not bad 4/4 indestructible and ignore wraths. Against tron is a beater 4/4 indestructible in turn 3, its better than a lot of our cards and if you go for the burn plan he can help you with clique and snapy, and can shut down wurmcoil, so you can remove path in game 2. He dont shine in any MU, but is very good in a lot.
I dont play the Nahiri build now. More clasic Jeskai builds 4 Guideon of Trials 1 Big Gideon.
Maybe he is cute... but worth the test. I love hear more opinions and test.
Sorry for my english
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Modern: Jeskai control / Jeskai Geist
Death and taxes / UW control
So against control, I'm more worried it catches Path to Exile than a wrath effect. Gideon Jura can at least play board control while he's twiddling his thumbs. Against Tron, Karn and Ugin will still exile it.
So against control, I'm more worried it catches Path to Exile than a wrath effect. Gideon Jura can at least play board control while he's twiddling his thumbs. Against Tron, Karn and Ugin will still exile it.
True... but is the die with bolt argument. The only 1 mana removal who can beat him is path. I like the card, but maybe you are correct in your apreciation, i think he deserves more testing, but im sure you know a lot more than me about Jeskai control, so glad to hear your opinions!
I have been playing Jeskai Nahiri for months and here are a few thoughts about it (my list here)
I feel that Jeskai is not the best control shell in modern anymore.
I also play UW (classical and As Foretold version) with better results. Being 2 colors only allows powerfull mana denial strategies (Spreading seas / GC).
And Bolt isn't as powerfull as it used to be (as a removal spell).
But I still love Nahiri, for her ability to close games quickly, and I think As Foretold may improve the AV build.
T3 As Foretold + AV / Restore Balance, T4 Nahiri + Bolt / Path on your turn + Spell Pierce / Spell Snare on opponent turn... that seems super strong.
And a late As Foretold draw isn't a big issue thanks to Nahiri's +2.
Any thoughts about that ?
Concerning Gideon, I was extremely enthouisast at first, but very disappointed after testing (in a UW control shell). Every time I had it in hand, I wished I had something else. His +1 is only good versus big creatures deck, DSJ for instance. It forces the opponent to overplay, allowing you to gain CA with a wrath. His "ult" is totally overrated, even against Combo.
I think that Jeskai Nahiri is definitively not a good shell for him. You don't need him as a wincon, and you don't want your opponent to overplay since most of our answers are 1-1. There are many better moves for a T3 than a Gideon in a Jeskai Nahiri shell.
I dont play him in Jeskai Nahiri, i use a more traditional Jeskai control build. Totally agree with your statement, he is not good in a Jeskai Nahiri. I test him and was useless, he dont contribute to our game plan. In Jeskai Control he give me the opportuniti to make better my burn gameplan against our bad MU, and is a good cards in the others, helping Verdict, Electrlolyze, Bolt, etc, to be more effective.
IMO the best build for Gideon is UW Midrange, 4 Gideons of Trials, 2 Big Gideons or 1 Big Gideon 1 Sun Titan. Gideon is great with more Gideons, Titan, Wall, Resto, etc.
But guys... this are my test... im an average player, if you test and have others results great!!! share them. Im only talk about this because i was testing him, but you know more than I about the archetype.
Sorry for my english
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Modern: Jeskai control / Jeskai Geist
Death and taxes / UW control
It's actually not the "does to bolt" argument. I'm specifically saying Gideon Jura does more of what this shell would want on top of the new Gideon not fixing any match we care about. New Gideon is basically shiny fluff imo.
The only reason I mentioned Path to Exile is because you said it has uses against control.
Trials Gideon helps a ton in any matchup against creatures that don't die to bolt. Again, he is basically an oblivion ring you can replace every turn, and if you have no important targets you hit them for 4.
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WMMT5dx: Car - RK Coupe Track - Hakone Outbound
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Ancestral Vison
3 Serum Visions
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
1 Negate
3 Mana Leak
3 Lightning Helix
1 Electrolyze
3 Cryptic Command
3 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred foundry
2 Spirebluff Canal
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Wear // Tear
3 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
Deck is a ton of fun. Resolving an Ancestral Vision releases all the dopamine... Rest in Peace is so good right now as well.
My manabase is:
4 scalding tarn
3 flooded strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 steam vents
2 hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 celestial colonnade
1 desolate lighthouse
3 island
2 Plains
1 mountain
About the paths and helixes, we have a very agressive meta at our lgs and the lifegain is pretty important, i started with all paths main and the helixes in the board biti switched them arround since I always boarded in the helixes and sometimes i rook out there paths for them because i didn't want to give a deck full of cheap creatures extra land and thin their deck, Well mostly all removal goes in against such decks.
UWG Spirits
Standard
UW Control
RBU Midrange
Commander
UBG Tasigur
Pauper
GW Slivers
4x Flooded Strand
3x Arid Mesa
1x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Irrigated Farmland
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Mountain
3x Celestial Colonnade
2x Spirebluff Canal
1x Tectonic Edge
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
Planeswalkers
4x Nahiri, The Harbinger
Instants and Sorceries
4x Serum Visions
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Mana Leak
2x Remand
2x Spell Snare
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
4x Path to Exile
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Cast out
3x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Negate
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Rest in Peace
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Stony Silence
1x Crumble to Dust
There are several changes since my last GP. I've removed 2 Sulfur Falls and the Seachrome Coast and added in 2 Spirebluff Canal and an Irrigated Farmland. This adds potential tapped lands but increases my number of T1 blue sources from the previous list.
I've swapped an Anger of the Gods for a Supreme Verdict as I expect much less low to the ground zoo type decks than before. I've cut a Remand to go up to the full 4 Mana Leak as I think the card is slightly worse right now than before but still fills a crucial spot for T2 tempo/disruption. I've cut the 3rd Lightning Helix in place of Castout. This card is very good. Cycle it when the match-up is incorrect, otherwise this sidesteps Abrupt Decay and Inquisition and lets you hold mana up and avoid tapping out. In the sideboard I'm leaning more heavily on Geist as I anticipate more unfair matchups in Kobe and it also works fine against control. Upped the EE count as it's not only a versatile sideboard all-star but it cleans up Death's shadows and Tarmogoyfs, affinity, elves, etc quite well. Added Ajani Vengeant. I wanted to keep my life gain spells at the same 4 count I had previously and this card also can come in for a lot of matchups.
Overall, I like the list and feel good about playing it in a couple weeks.
Feel free to PM me any questions.
Im testing him in UW midrange list... but im tempted to add red...
Yes... i think he is an amazing card for control decks...
Death and taxes / UW control
But that's just my opinion, please try him out and let us know what you find!
UWG Spirits
Standard
UW Control
RBU Midrange
Commander
UBG Tasigur
Pauper
GW Slivers
I am. I don't know of any Jeskai decks that aren't. I have three Geists and a Crumble in the sideboard. Stony Silence and Ajani can also do work against Tron.
Dropping the anger from the main for a second electrolyze? Dredge has dropped off but electrolyze fits the burn strategy
Dropping the 3rd island going to 23 land to accomodate 1x sleight of hand? But may be awkward knowing I must hit 4 land
Would 2 logic knott main be better then the mana leaks? Relevant late, can't be snared, filters the grave only downside is it has to have uu and a card in grave to counter on t2
Are the sideboard dispel and wear / tear really that necessary now? Thinking ee and purge with the cryptic bounce mode is relevant enough
1 emrakul the aeons torn
1 vendillion clique
4 snapcaster mage
4 nahiri the harbinger
2 cryptic command
1 anger of the gods
1 electrolyze
2 mana leak
3 remand
3 lightning helix
4 lightning bolt
4 path to exile
4 serum visions
2 spell snare
1 mountain
1 plains
3 island
1 sacred foundry
2 hallowed fountain
2 steam vents
4 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
3 celestial colonnade
2 sulfur falls
1 desolate lighthouse
Sideboard
1 elspeth suns champion
1 engineered explosives
1 dispel
1 wear / tear
1 stony silence
1 celestial purge
1 logic knot
1 blessed alliance
1 anger of the gods
1 wrath of God
2 relic of progenitus
3 crumble to dust
Although I still play Nahiri, I'd be reluctant to bring her to an unknown meta as her costing 4 mana is a big downside right now. Not only are there the obvious risks of playing a 4 mana sorcery, but she also fills up our high end a lot; the Nahiri package already gives you 5 cmc4+ spells (Emrakul does count) which leaves very little room for Cryptic Commands and Supreme Verdicts. Nahiri builds have always been relatively midrangey because of this and going bigger has proven to be better in the current meta if you look at the success of UW builds.
As for your criticisms of Trials Gideon; you are right that the emblem is vastly overrated. It is still very strong against a ton of decks, especially burn and infect, but I see a lot of builds doing silly things with Pacts which are very high risk with not much reward. Your criticism of Gideon's +1 locking out "just one creature" is a little silly though; I dare you to find another cmc3 or even cmc4 planeswalker that can protect itself that well while plussing. You can tap out for gideon into a threat to lock it down, then untap to kill that threat. He's essentially an Oblivion Ring that you can reassign each turn and can help you wait out an AV to draw into answers. The 4 damage clock is also plenty strong enough with how difficult he is to remove and in combination with snapcasters, bolts and colonnades.
Well... a planeswalker who protect himself from only one creature... its amazing for me... he cost 3 mana. In a midrange build, your creature can ignore blocker damage. A 4/4 indestructible beater for 3 mana in white is very good IMO. About the emblem...has been great for me in a lot of fair MU (burn, infect, jund, etc), and Ok in te rest. Pact interactions are overrated, but i play 1 pact of negation and was great in a lot of games.
I was testing him in DaT build too, because he run great in midrange list.
Maybe im wrong.... but i buy my playset of GoT for 20 each one.
Sorry for my english
Death and taxes / UW control
Before testing I think Gideon would be good against:
-Burn: Preventing damage and stopping Eidolon
-Affinity: good against Master and creature lands as long as they don't have a Plating to move around
-Jund: turning off a Tarmogoyf and making them extend into Supreme Verdict while being a proactive play against Liliana seems good. Of course they also have Abrupt Decay
-Merfolk: Again, forcing them to over extend seems perfect with Wrath effects.
-Eldrazi: Would play a similar role as Liliana in Jund where its great as stopping their giant monsters but a well timed Reality Smasher can end him.
-Ad Nauseum: Basically makes it so they can't win.
I imagine he would be poor against Control and Tron. Can anyone confirm or deny the above from experience?
I dont play the Nahiri build now. More clasic Jeskai builds 4 Guideon of Trials 1 Big Gideon.
Maybe he is cute... but worth the test. I love hear more opinions and test.
Sorry for my english
Death and taxes / UW control
True... but is the die with bolt argument. The only 1 mana removal who can beat him is path. I like the card, but maybe you are correct in your apreciation, i think he deserves more testing, but im sure you know a lot more than me about Jeskai control, so glad to hear your opinions!
[/quote]
I dont play him in Jeskai Nahiri, i use a more traditional Jeskai control build. Totally agree with your statement, he is not good in a Jeskai Nahiri. I test him and was useless, he dont contribute to our game plan. In Jeskai Control he give me the opportuniti to make better my burn gameplan against our bad MU, and is a good cards in the others, helping Verdict, Electrlolyze, Bolt, etc, to be more effective.
IMO the best build for Gideon is UW Midrange, 4 Gideons of Trials, 2 Big Gideons or 1 Big Gideon 1 Sun Titan. Gideon is great with more Gideons, Titan, Wall, Resto, etc.
But guys... this are my test... im an average player, if you test and have others results great!!! share them. Im only talk about this because i was testing him, but you know more than I about the archetype.
Sorry for my english
Death and taxes / UW control
The only reason I mentioned Path to Exile is because you said it has uses against control.
Death and taxes / UW control