I think this is looking pretty good. My only residual concerns are these:
1. Mana-hate in the SB, not sure if Crumble to Dust or Spreading Seas is superior. Ingram runs 2 each, I've got one each. I dropped one of them down to a singleton to include a space for Rest in Peace.
2. Not sure if there is enough Blue mana in the landbase to justify Cryptic Command. It might be good to drop it for another Mana Leak.
You have 7 lands that can't produce colored mana on T1. 3 colonnade, 3 check lands and a utility land. You also aren't taking advantage of any of the fastlands.
Just thought I'd pop in to share a list that's been doing pretty well for me (in admittedly somewhat casual testing, but against what I consider to be good players), and then ask a couple of questions. Here's what I've played so far:
1. I've noticed a large amount of people run Ancestral Vision alongside Serum Visions. I somewhat understand why (card advantage = good, and this deck isn't afraid to go long), but this seems like an alarming amount of air to have in a deck, especially given that we have access to several cantrips already, as well as a combo-esque win condition that can take over the midgame. Furthermore, the amount of air reduces the overall card quality, which in turn makes the cantrips (including Vision) weaker. Why bother with it given the construction of the deck?
2. How are we feeling about fastlands? I'm debating whether to swap out the Sulfur Falls for Spirebluff Canals, but given the importance of landing Nahiri as readily as possible, I'm somewhat skeptical they're the best fit. Any thoughts?
3. Rest in Peace strikes me as more objectively powerful than Relic of Progenitus, but shutting off my own Snapcasters makes it narrower. I've seen some compelling arguments in its favor, but I'd like to read some more opinions on the matter before I pull the trigger one way or the other.
I like Relic of Progenitus more because it can be used as a cantrip, and exiling a card just from their graveyard is really good. I managed to keep my Grixis control opponent off of delving for Tasigur just by exiling a card each turn. With Rest in Peace you only get to use Snapcaster as an Ambush Viper, and if you draw Emrakul then you can never get it back AND you can't cheat it into play with Nahiri.
By the way guys I decided to take out Tamiyo and replace it with another Stony Silence.
I like Relic of Progenitus more because it can be used as a cantrip, and exiling a card just from their graveyard is really good. I managed to keep my Grixis control opponent off of delving for Tasigur just by exiling a card each turn. With Rest in Peace you only get to use Snapcaster as an Ambush Viper, and if you draw Emrakul then you can never get it back AND you can't cheat it into play with Nahiri.
By the way guys I decided to take out Tamiyo and replace it with another Stony Silence.
That's actually not true. We just exile the RIP with Nahiri if we need to. It's not that big a deal. Also one of the most erroneous judgements that goes around the Jeskai thread is that RIP hurts Snapcaster (and that's somehow a big deal). As we've said many times, RIP only comes in against decks that it completely hoses. If you have out RIP against Dredge are you at all concerned that you can't snap back a bolt? The people that keep making these statements over and over should actually play with cards before they judge them. This kind of misinformation keeps spreading and it's hurting our Jeskai player base and making certain players massively misevaluate cards like Snapcaster, RIP and Relic, just to name a few.
This is where I'll be at when Kaladesh comes out. I have tested this extensively since spoilers. With the ban list bringing nothing, I like where this is at for fighting the same albeit more consistent meta.
I know there will be some back and forth on this, but the mana has felt near perfect. I have not missed sulfur falls and 98% sure going forward fastlands will be the way to go. Having red or blue early is extremely important and mitigating the damage we take off fetch+shock really helps against an aggressive format. I think people are significantly underestimating the significance of this.
Anyway, these are all just my thoughts based on the games I have played. I'd really like to hear some input on the deck moving forward. As always, I appreciate you all and constructive criticism is always welcome.
That's actually not true. We just exile the RIP with Nahiri if we need to. It's not that big a deal. Also one of the most erroneous judgements that goes around the Jeskai thread is that RIP hurts Snapcaster (and that's somehow a big deal). As we've said many times, RIP only comes in against decks that it completely hoses. If you have out RIP against Dredge are you at all concerned that you can't snap back a bolt? The people that keep making these statements over and over should actually play with cards before they judge them. This kind of misinformation keeps spreading and it's hurting our Jeskai player base and making certain players massively misevaluate cards like Snapcaster, RIP and Relic, just to name a few.
For the love of god...there has to be a way to sticky a note at the top of each page detailing why RIP weakening Snapcaster isn't actually the end of the world. You and I can't be the only ones getting tired of repeating, "RIP > Relic/Cage; RIP's dis-synergy with Snapcaster is workable. Nahiri can remove RIP if it actually comes down to that."
I mean, it's not even a hard concept to understand. You lose some of the power of your deck, but you completely neuter and invalidate their entire deck. If you ruin their entire strategy right off the bat, you won't even need Snapcaster to flashback Bolts, let alone Nahiri ult. Punching them in the face over and over with Colonnade and "Ambush Vipers" beats should be more than enough. Hell, you can control the board entirely -- then at your own convenience, get rid of RIP and ult with Nahiri.
If they use their own sideboard tech to remove RIP then one of two things happen:
>If done early, hey you get your precious Snap+Bolt back.
>If done late (after RIP screws them over), then you should be in a winning position already (Hell, your Nahiri is probably on 8+ counters now; just ult Nahiri -- saves you the trouble of having to -2 remove RIP, then +2 again).
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Just thought I'd pop in to share a list that's been doing pretty well for me (in admittedly somewhat casual testing, but against what I consider to be good players), and then ask a couple of questions. Here's what I've played so far:
1. I've noticed a large amount of people run Ancestral Vision alongside Serum Visions. I somewhat understand why (card advantage = good, and this deck isn't afraid to go long), but this seems like an alarming amount of air to have in a deck, especially given that we have access to several cantrips already, as well as a combo-esque win condition that can take over the midgame. Furthermore, the amount of air reduces the overall card quality, which in turn makes the cantrips (including Vision) weaker. Why bother with it given the construction of the deck?
2. How are we feeling about fastlands? I'm debating whether to swap out the Sulfur Falls for Spirebluff Canals, but given the importance of landing Nahiri as readily as possible, I'm somewhat skeptical they're the best fit. Any thoughts?
3. Rest in Peace strikes me as more objectively powerful than Relic of Progenitus, but shutting off my own Snapcasters makes it narrower. I've seen some compelling arguments in its favor, but I'd like to read some more opinions on the matter before I pull the trigger one way or the other.
Thanks for any help!
I'm currently sideboarding my visions, because I think they're fairly weak against a lot of the decks I expect to see.
I view this deck as more of a combo deck than a control deck, atleast compared to other people though, meaning I don't rely on card advantage to the same extent.
However, the raw power of AV in matchups like jund, or against decks like eldrazi where lots of cards need to come out, means it should almost certainly be played in some number.
There is some back and forth about fastlands. I have not yet been able to play any meaningful amount of games with the u/r fastland (I very much did not like seachrome coast here, as I have enough u/w sources with colonnade.) That being said, my instinct is to agree with you here. I think anyone playing cryptics main is not going to want fastlands what so ever. If you don't play cryptic, I'm still a bit undecided.
Rest in peace is better than relic. I personally do not see dredge enough to bother playing hard grave hate (I am willing to accept being an underdog here, but with path, nahiri, anger, etc, its not totally hopeless) Living end, abzan coco, etc, are generally favorable enough matchups I wouldn't devote sideboard space on rip just for them, but if you want something for dredge, just play rest in peace. There isn't really any point in playing something weaker.
I'm curious as to why so many people are still playing stony silence? I've dropped mine a long time ago, as between wraths, angers, timely, helix, bolt, path, wear/tear, nahiri, basically half of our deck, we tend to be able to crush affinity without it, and against tron, negates, molten rain, spreading seas, crumble, etc, are all much stronger. I feel we can better use the space.
Truth be told, I haven't had much trouble against BGX. I'll be the first to admit that my sample size is small, but my current configuration handled the matchup pretty convincingly. And I agree with you in that I see the deck more as combo-control than pure control, given that I've finished almost every game with a Nahiri, the Harbinger ultimate (which has prompted a concession even when it wasn't quite lethal). I don't feel like I need the Visions, but maybe that will change with more testing (especially against Eldrazi, which I know is a bad matchup).
As for the fastlands... yeah, that's what I figured. The deck has enough ways to absorb damage (Helix, Nahiri diverting attackers, Timely Reinforcements if you really want to spring for them) that I'm not worried about the life loss from fetch + shock as much as I am having my 4th land come in tapped and delay my 4-drop for a turn.
Duly noted on Rest in Peace. I'll make that switch. As for Stony Silence... my thoughts are that against Tron, we need fast hate cards. The goal is to prevent T3 Tron so that you stand a chance of slapping down a Nahiri and ticking her up to win via her ult, and I feel that Stony does that better than anything else, while also putting in lots of work against Affinity (which we do not struggle against, but it doesn't hurt to have it).
Fastlands have to be a mistake for UWR control decks - we never ran seachrome coast. Admittedly Spirebluff is more palatable then Seachrome due to its ability to cast bolt or visions - however checklands is where you want to be in a slow deck (to hit 4 plus mana and cast your 4 cmc cards on curve) - leave the fastlands for UR delver decks (that dont really ever want to see 4 plus mana).
Good to see people have finally seen the light on 4 cmc sweepers - this is how you will beat Eldrazi - good luck..
Fastlands have to be a mistake for UWR control decks - we never ran seachrome coast. Admittedly Spirebluff is more palatable then Seachrome due to its ability to cast bolt or visions - however checklands is where you want to be in a slow deck (to hit 4 plus mana and cast your 4 cmc cards on curve) - leave the fastlands for UR delver decks (that dont really ever want to see 4 plus mana).
Good to see people have finally seen the light on 4 cmc sweepers - this is how you will beat Eldrazi - good luck..
Some of us have run Seachrome Coast. It's a fine card. It isn't a "slowdeck". Almost all of the cards in the deck are 1-2 mana. There is a Planeswalker at 4 mana, other than that the entire maindeck is 1-3 mana. That's not slow. 4 CMC sweepers don't change your Eldrazi match-up all that much. If you happen to topdeck your 1-2 of sweeper and kill an Eldrazi plus a mana dork it's fine but nothing amazing.
Fastlands will be incredible for this deck! People are underestimating how much they improve your aggro match-ups. It will be very rare that it stops you from casting a spell, unless you are running one of the weaker versions with a bunch of sweepers and cryptics.
I'm very on-board with Rest in Peace because you bring it in against the decks that it wins the game on the spot for. You're not taking it in vs Jund, you bring it in against Dredge where you instantly win. I'm not running grave hate in current testing, but I think it's a good idea.
Anyone with a little bit of Jund experience can tell you how great the fastlands are; Jund can get away with one of the greediest manabases in modern (turn 1 BR turn 2 BRG turn 3 BBRRG) whilst also playing Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant AND wanting to fetch as many green sources as possible for Scavenging Ooze. They can do this because of Blackcleave Cliffs. We actually have a very similar manacurve (turn 1 UR turn 2 WUR turn 3 WUURR) and although we don't play lifetaxing cards like they do we also can't put a big fat Tarmogoyf in front of anything to stop aggro until we draw the answer.
Seachrome Coast wasn't that great because you don't want to cast Path to Exile early but painless early Lightning Bolt is a significant upgrade to our deck; I'm betting every single person in this thread has stories of winning or losing by 1-2 life short.
Anyone with a little bit of Jund experience can tell you how great the fastlands are; Jund can get away with one of the greediest manabases in modern (turn 1 BR turn 2 BRG turn 3 BBRRG) whilst also playing Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant AND wanting to fetch as many green sources as possible for Scavenging Ooze. They can do this because of Blackcleave Cliffs. We actually have a very similar manacurve (turn 1 UR turn 2 WUR turn 3 WUURR) and although we don't play lifetaxing cards like they do we also can't put a big fat Tarmogoyf in front of anything to stop aggro until we draw the answer.
Seachrome Coast wasn't that great because you don't want to cast Path to Exile early but painless early Lightning Bolt is a significant upgrade to our deck; I'm betting every single person in this thread has stories of winning or losing by 1-2 life short.
I have been saying this from the get go. I can probably count on two hands the the games I lost where if I had the extra one, two or three extra points of life I wouldn't have. I can also count on two hands the games I won where I was more patient with Nahiri and played her on turn 5 or 6 with. We are a deck full of permission and burn spells, this allows us to be patient. Do people not realize we don't have to play her on turn four every time?
Maybe I'm the only one, or maybe I'm just really bad at Magic, but I'd rather have a mana base that's more effective against an aggressive field than play a 4 mana walker on curve all the time. This especially if we are controlling the game early and not taking as much life from our own lands.
Bearscape, TappingStones and I can't really be the only ones who see the significance of Spirebluff. Can we?
Sure, I bring in Clique in almost every match-up. Affinity, Tron, Scapeshift, Valukut/Titan, Ad Nauseum, Boggles, Storm, Jeskai Nahiri, Delver decks, Grixis control decks, Eldrazi, Merfolk, Burn, Infect and some other lower tiered decks.
Hello TappingStones, i'm learning how to play nahiri jeskai based on list very similar to yours and your posts are very helpfull. Played two small events recently and mostly losing but each match learned me some new things. For example in one game versus merfolk my opponent has something like 17 life and i ultimated nahiri and put emrakul into play beacause i thought that he can't survive thise anyways but he took emrakul hit and put Phantasmal Image with vial end of my turn to copy emrakul and kill me with it next turn. This spot realized me how much things you have to consider when playing deck like this.
Anyways, i have little trouble sideboarding sometimes but based on this topic and other content i am able to recognize my bad sideboarding most of the time. However i always have trouble in understanding role of vendilion clicque in different matchups and playing with it, could you write down some more tips about this card? For example i don't understand why You bring it in versus Affinity. Also in guide to jeskai nahiri by Jim Davis he bring it out in this matchup. The same goes for burn and infect (Jim Davis in infect matchup bring second clicque in like you, but still i don't understand why - in my thinking this card seems not efficient for this matchups).
One more question about metagaming - How would you change your list for aggro/combo metagame with very little midrange/control decks. Decks which i'm facing mostly in my local metagame: Affinity, Burn, Dredge, Tron, Storm, Suicide, Merfolk, Living End, Eldrazi, Elfs, Eldrazi & Taxes.
Anyone with a little bit of Jund experience can tell you how great the fastlands are; Jund can get away with one of the greediest manabases in modern (turn 1 BR turn 2 BRG turn 3 BBRRG) whilst also playing Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant AND wanting to fetch as many green sources as possible for Scavenging Ooze. They can do this because of Blackcleave Cliffs. We actually have a very similar manacurve (turn 1 UR turn 2 WUR turn 3 WUURR) and although we don't play lifetaxing cards like they do we also can't put a big fat Tarmogoyf in front of anything to stop aggro until we draw the answer.
Seachrome Coast wasn't that great because you don't want to cast Path to Exile early but painless early Lightning Bolt is a significant upgrade to our deck; I'm betting every single person in this thread has stories of winning or losing by 1-2 life short.
I have been saying this from the get go. I can probably count on two hands the the games I lost where if I had the extra one, two or three extra points of life I wouldn't have. I can also count on two hands the games I won where I was more patient with Nahiri and played her on turn 5 or 6 with. We are a deck full of permission and burn spells, this allows us to be patient. Do people not realize we don't have to play her on turn four every time?
Maybe I'm the only one, or maybe I'm just really bad at Magic, but I'd rather have a mana base that's more effective against an aggressive field than play a 4 mana walker on curve all the time. This especially if we are controlling the game early and not taking as much life from our own lands.
Bearscape, TappingStones and I can't really be the only ones who see the significance of Spirebluff. Can we?
One more question about metagaming - How would you change your list for aggro/combo metagame with very little midrange/control decks. Decks which i'm facing mostly in my local metagame: Affinity, Burn, Dredge, Tron, Storm, Suicide, Merfolk, Living End, Eldrazi, Elfs, Eldrazi & Taxes.
I'm not TappingStones, but my diagnosis of your metagame is that you have lots of go-wide decks. You would be well served by packing sweepers, and lots of them. We're talking a lineup that probably looks like 2 Anger of the Gods and 2 Electrolyze main plus 2 Engineered Explosives and 2 Supreme Verdict side. X for 1s are how you starch these decks. You'll also need some Crumble to Dust and Stony Silence for Tron, as well as Rest in Peace for Dredge. Given the presence of Affinity, Bant Eldrazi, E&T, and Tron, Ceremonious Rejection may also be an option, but it's pretty hit-or-miss against the Eldrazi decks in particular (great when they don't have an Aether Vial/Cavern of Souls, awful when they do).
I personally don't really see the point of Seachrome Coast if the purpose of fastlands is to access your mana early quickly. The only white spell you want to cast early on is Lightning Helix, Path to Exile should not be cast in the first three turns if it can be avoided. On top of that, I'm a big fan of the plains-centric fetches plan (running arid mesa + flooded strand and less scalding tarns) which should make it easy to acquire white mana very easily anyways. The one reason to run Seachrome Coast is that if you just convert the standard pre-kaladesh manabase by adding 3 spirebluffs to the flex slots, you will have a shortage of white mana. To solve this, you could run a seachrome coast, but I opted to play a second hallowed fountain instead of a second steam vents instead
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So, I think this is it:
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Ghost Quarter
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells (27):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancestral Vision
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Cryptic Command
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Celestial Purge
1 Wear // Tear
1 Spreading Seas
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Stony Silence
2 Negate
1 Wrath of God
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Dispel
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Rest in Peace
I think this is looking pretty good. My only residual concerns are these:
1. Mana-hate in the SB, not sure if Crumble to Dust or Spreading Seas is superior. Ingram runs 2 each, I've got one each. I dropped one of them down to a singleton to include a space for Rest in Peace.
2. Not sure if there is enough Blue mana in the landbase to justify Cryptic Command. It might be good to drop it for another Mana Leak.
There are no notes on fast lands in the primer for this thread.
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Creatures (6):
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells (27):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancestral Vision
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Celestial Purge
1 Wear // Tear
1 Spreading Seas
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Stony Silence
2 Negate
1 Wrath of God
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Dispel
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Rest in Peace
Just thought I'd pop in to share a list that's been doing pretty well for me (in admittedly somewhat casual testing, but against what I consider to be good players), and then ask a couple of questions. Here's what I've played so far:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Instants (20)
2 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
2 Remand
2 Spell Snare
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Serum Visions
Lands (24)
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Dispel
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Negate
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Stony Silence
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Wear // Tear
My questions are as follows:
1. I've noticed a large amount of people run Ancestral Vision alongside Serum Visions. I somewhat understand why (card advantage = good, and this deck isn't afraid to go long), but this seems like an alarming amount of air to have in a deck, especially given that we have access to several cantrips already, as well as a combo-esque win condition that can take over the midgame. Furthermore, the amount of air reduces the overall card quality, which in turn makes the cantrips (including Vision) weaker. Why bother with it given the construction of the deck?
2. How are we feeling about fastlands? I'm debating whether to swap out the Sulfur Falls for Spirebluff Canals, but given the importance of landing Nahiri as readily as possible, I'm somewhat skeptical they're the best fit. Any thoughts?
3. Rest in Peace strikes me as more objectively powerful than Relic of Progenitus, but shutting off my own Snapcasters makes it narrower. I've seen some compelling arguments in its favor, but I'd like to read some more opinions on the matter before I pull the trigger one way or the other.
Thanks for any help!
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
By the way guys I decided to take out Tamiyo and replace it with another Stony Silence.
That's actually not true. We just exile the RIP with Nahiri if we need to. It's not that big a deal. Also one of the most erroneous judgements that goes around the Jeskai thread is that RIP hurts Snapcaster (and that's somehow a big deal). As we've said many times, RIP only comes in against decks that it completely hoses. If you have out RIP against Dredge are you at all concerned that you can't snap back a bolt? The people that keep making these statements over and over should actually play with cards before they judge them. This kind of misinformation keeps spreading and it's hurting our Jeskai player base and making certain players massively misevaluate cards like Snapcaster, RIP and Relic, just to name a few.
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Elspeth, Suns Champion
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
3 Remand
2 Mana Leak
1 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
3 Celestial Colonnade
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Spirebluff Canal
1 Arid Mesa
1 Mystic Gate
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Spreading Seas
2 Ceremonial Dismissal
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Stony Silence
1 Rest In Peace
1 Izzet Staticaster
This is where I'll be at when Kaladesh comes out. I have tested this extensively since spoilers. With the ban list bringing nothing, I like where this is at for fighting the same albeit more consistent meta.
I know there will be some back and forth on this, but the mana has felt near perfect. I have not missed sulfur falls and 98% sure going forward fastlands will be the way to go. Having red or blue early is extremely important and mitigating the damage we take off fetch+shock really helps against an aggressive format. I think people are significantly underestimating the significance of this.
Anyway, these are all just my thoughts based on the games I have played. I'd really like to hear some input on the deck moving forward. As always, I appreciate you all and constructive criticism is always welcome.
Cheers.
For the love of god...there has to be a way to sticky a note at the top of each page detailing why RIP weakening Snapcaster isn't actually the end of the world. You and I can't be the only ones getting tired of repeating, "RIP > Relic/Cage; RIP's dis-synergy with Snapcaster is workable. Nahiri can remove RIP if it actually comes down to that."
I mean, it's not even a hard concept to understand. You lose some of the power of your deck, but you completely neuter and invalidate their entire deck. If you ruin their entire strategy right off the bat, you won't even need Snapcaster to flashback Bolts, let alone Nahiri ult. Punching them in the face over and over with Colonnade and "Ambush Vipers" beats should be more than enough. Hell, you can control the board entirely -- then at your own convenience, get rid of RIP and ult with Nahiri.
If they use their own sideboard tech to remove RIP then one of two things happen:
>If done early, hey you get your precious Snap+Bolt back.
>If done late (after RIP screws them over), then you should be in a winning position already (Hell, your Nahiri is probably on 8+ counters now; just ult Nahiri -- saves you the trouble of having to -2 remove RIP, then +2 again).
I'm currently sideboarding my visions, because I think they're fairly weak against a lot of the decks I expect to see.
I view this deck as more of a combo deck than a control deck, atleast compared to other people though, meaning I don't rely on card advantage to the same extent.
However, the raw power of AV in matchups like jund, or against decks like eldrazi where lots of cards need to come out, means it should almost certainly be played in some number.
There is some back and forth about fastlands. I have not yet been able to play any meaningful amount of games with the u/r fastland (I very much did not like seachrome coast here, as I have enough u/w sources with colonnade.) That being said, my instinct is to agree with you here. I think anyone playing cryptics main is not going to want fastlands what so ever. If you don't play cryptic, I'm still a bit undecided.
Rest in peace is better than relic. I personally do not see dredge enough to bother playing hard grave hate (I am willing to accept being an underdog here, but with path, nahiri, anger, etc, its not totally hopeless) Living end, abzan coco, etc, are generally favorable enough matchups I wouldn't devote sideboard space on rip just for them, but if you want something for dredge, just play rest in peace. There isn't really any point in playing something weaker.
I'm curious as to why so many people are still playing stony silence? I've dropped mine a long time ago, as between wraths, angers, timely, helix, bolt, path, wear/tear, nahiri, basically half of our deck, we tend to be able to crush affinity without it, and against tron, negates, molten rain, spreading seas, crumble, etc, are all much stronger. I feel we can better use the space.
As for the fastlands... yeah, that's what I figured. The deck has enough ways to absorb damage (Helix, Nahiri diverting attackers, Timely Reinforcements if you really want to spring for them) that I'm not worried about the life loss from fetch + shock as much as I am having my 4th land come in tapped and delay my 4-drop for a turn.
Duly noted on Rest in Peace. I'll make that switch. As for Stony Silence... my thoughts are that against Tron, we need fast hate cards. The goal is to prevent T3 Tron so that you stand a chance of slapping down a Nahiri and ticking her up to win via her ult, and I feel that Stony does that better than anything else, while also putting in lots of work against Affinity (which we do not struggle against, but it doesn't hurt to have it).
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Good to see people have finally seen the light on 4 cmc sweepers - this is how you will beat Eldrazi - good luck..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Some of us have run Seachrome Coast. It's a fine card. It isn't a "slowdeck". Almost all of the cards in the deck are 1-2 mana. There is a Planeswalker at 4 mana, other than that the entire maindeck is 1-3 mana. That's not slow. 4 CMC sweepers don't change your Eldrazi match-up all that much. If you happen to topdeck your 1-2 of sweeper and kill an Eldrazi plus a mana dork it's fine but nothing amazing.
Fastlands will be incredible for this deck! People are underestimating how much they improve your aggro match-ups. It will be very rare that it stops you from casting a spell, unless you are running one of the weaker versions with a bunch of sweepers and cryptics.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Seachrome Coast wasn't that great because you don't want to cast Path to Exile early but painless early Lightning Bolt is a significant upgrade to our deck; I'm betting every single person in this thread has stories of winning or losing by 1-2 life short.
I have been saying this from the get go. I can probably count on two hands the the games I lost where if I had the extra one, two or three extra points of life I wouldn't have. I can also count on two hands the games I won where I was more patient with Nahiri and played her on turn 5 or 6 with. We are a deck full of permission and burn spells, this allows us to be patient. Do people not realize we don't have to play her on turn four every time?
Maybe I'm the only one, or maybe I'm just really bad at Magic, but I'd rather have a mana base that's more effective against an aggressive field than play a 4 mana walker on curve all the time. This especially if we are controlling the game early and not taking as much life from our own lands.
Bearscape, TappingStones and I can't really be the only ones who see the significance of Spirebluff. Can we?
Hello TappingStones, i'm learning how to play nahiri jeskai based on list very similar to yours and your posts are very helpfull. Played two small events recently and mostly losing but each match learned me some new things. For example in one game versus merfolk my opponent has something like 17 life and i ultimated nahiri and put emrakul into play beacause i thought that he can't survive thise anyways but he took emrakul hit and put Phantasmal Image with vial end of my turn to copy emrakul and kill me with it next turn. This spot realized me how much things you have to consider when playing deck like this.
Anyways, i have little trouble sideboarding sometimes but based on this topic and other content i am able to recognize my bad sideboarding most of the time. However i always have trouble in understanding role of vendilion clicque in different matchups and playing with it, could you write down some more tips about this card? For example i don't understand why You bring it in versus Affinity. Also in guide to jeskai nahiri by Jim Davis he bring it out in this matchup. The same goes for burn and infect (Jim Davis in infect matchup bring second clicque in like you, but still i don't understand why - in my thinking this card seems not efficient for this matchups).
One more question about metagaming - How would you change your list for aggro/combo metagame with very little midrange/control decks. Decks which i'm facing mostly in my local metagame: Affinity, Burn, Dredge, Tron, Storm, Suicide, Merfolk, Living End, Eldrazi, Elfs, Eldrazi & Taxes.
You're not. My only question is whether to use a 2 Spirebluff Canal + 1 Seachrome Coast split, or 3 Spirebluff Canals.
I'm not TappingStones, but my diagnosis of your metagame is that you have lots of go-wide decks. You would be well served by packing sweepers, and lots of them. We're talking a lineup that probably looks like 2 Anger of the Gods and 2 Electrolyze main plus 2 Engineered Explosives and 2 Supreme Verdict side. X for 1s are how you starch these decks. You'll also need some Crumble to Dust and Stony Silence for Tron, as well as Rest in Peace for Dredge. Given the presence of Affinity, Bant Eldrazi, E&T, and Tron, Ceremonious Rejection may also be an option, but it's pretty hit-or-miss against the Eldrazi decks in particular (great when they don't have an Aether Vial/Cavern of Souls, awful when they do).
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I personally don't really see the point of Seachrome Coast if the purpose of fastlands is to access your mana early quickly. The only white spell you want to cast early on is Lightning Helix, Path to Exile should not be cast in the first three turns if it can be avoided. On top of that, I'm a big fan of the plains-centric fetches plan (running arid mesa + flooded strand and less scalding tarns) which should make it easy to acquire white mana very easily anyways. The one reason to run Seachrome Coast is that if you just convert the standard pre-kaladesh manabase by adding 3 spirebluffs to the flex slots, you will have a shortage of white mana. To solve this, you could run a seachrome coast, but I opted to play a second hallowed fountain instead of a second steam vents instead