Thanks for the report ! Man that was painful to read how hosed you've been regarding this Thought Knot scenario. I mean, he must have known... TKS is super strong but it has this one drawback that makes it ok and that's really shocking if your opponent wasnt aware of it.
I'm bringing the deck for the first time to my LGS on Wednesday. Can't wait to try it out. There are so many Junds out there I want to blood moon away.
I agree with you that Eternal Scourge is not super exciting, but I'll try it in my vanilla list on Wednesday. If it doesn't convince me I'll go with the reckoner next time, which would be quite interesting in my meta I think (there are some Affinity, Burn and Goblins roaming around).
I play Bogles occasionnally (although not very often these days), and I assure you that Bogles is super scared of Blood Moon. When it's out you simply stop casting spells and must win with what's already on board. It's a coin flip, but Bogles is terrified by Skred too
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
Hangarback has seen a lot of past play, especially alongside PnKN. It's powerful, but slow.
Against Jund, you have Relic against Tarmogoyf, and once that's gone usually Karn or a Dragon immediately takes out Lili. Reckoner halts their attack unless they have Push, and PnKN stalls well while threatening Lili also. Finally, an early Blood Moon can severely limit their options.
Mixed. If they land something big, it can be tough to remove it, especially early. That said, a Blood Moon will often prevent them from casting anything important from there on out.
Hi all just joined mtg salvation the other day after lurking for many years. I recently finished picking up most of the pieces to this deck over the last month or so I've got to play it quite a bit and am loving it my list is pretty stock except I have no snow lands or skred instead my mana base is 23 mountains and I have upped the sweeper count to 5 2 anger 2 sweltwering suns and 1 pyroclasm. Also my flex threat spot is godo bandit warlord and batterskull. Which has won me at least 5 or 6 games alone thanks
I'll post a list soon
Creatures:
2 eternal scourge
2 pia and Kiran naalar
3 stormbreath dragon
1 Godo bandit warlord
Instant;
4 lightning bolt
Sorcery:
2 anger of the gods
2 sweltering suns
2 pyroclasm
Enchantment:
3 blood moon
Planeswalker;
4 koth of the hammer
2 chandra torch of defiance
I know this is the skred thread and I used to play the snow lands and skred but whenever my opponent saw turn one snow covered mountain they would instantly begin fetching basics rendering blood moon almost useless also while I liked skred it didn't seem to do enough in the early game on the draw. it would almost be dead removal because my bolts took care of most things then I would find I would miss a land drop and have no way to deal with tasigur, gurmag angler and reality smasher thanks for looking any recomendations or critisism welcome i also have quite a few fnm reports as well if anyone is interested thanks
Welp, I'm back from my first small tournament at my LGS with Skred. It was... a disaster. I ended up going 1-3 but got very close from the 0-4. The deck didn't feel good, but maybe it's my meta, or I was unlucky, or I played badly because it was the first time, or a combination of all of the above. It felt too slow, I suffered plenty of mana deaths, and had to mulligan a lot.
Match 1 (1-2) 4c Saheeli
Kitchen Finks and Voices of Resurgence were super hard to handle. With only two Sweltering Suns MD I got very quickly overrun. Anyway 3 damage were not always enough to kill a Tarmogoyf, Felidar Guardians and Sigarda so I had to cumulate. Blood moons were okay but not game breaking for my opponent because as soon as they saw a Snow Covered Mountain they started fetching basics. They also had mana dorks and somehow I never got to bolt them quick enough.
Koth's ultimate won me game 2, but I had to struggle a little.
Game 3 (on the draw), I do T1 land, T2 Mind Stone, T3 "well it's already a bit too late isn't it ?".
Match 2 (1-2)
Hardened Scale Affinity (similar to this but without the snakes)
This deck is probably worse than "normal" affinity for us. Arcbound Workers and Ravagers are so hard to kill because they can just move their counters upon death, so pinpoint removal like Bolt or Skred are horribly unefficient. You need to kill everything at once, including Blinkmoth Nexuses, but even then our 3dmg wrath aren't often enough. Game 1 opponent had the nuts and I conceeded on turn 4 because the board was already unbeatable. I managed to steal Game 2 that was about to go awry with a surprise Return of Kozilek which swiped both his Etched Champion and several small artifact creatures. But then game 3 I lost in response to a Shattering Spree with a Ravager sacking everything with a Hardened Scale on the field and then dumping all the counters on a ballista who proceeded to deal me 14 damage for lethal.
Match 3 (2-1)
Jund delirium
Opponent was playing a very singular list, Delirium-focused (playing Traverse, Whispers of Emrakul, baubles, street wraith, etc...). Game 1 is pretty rough for me, with Tarmogoyfs and BBE lowering my life real fast. I manage to handle them and we both go into topdeck mode, but my life is very low. Koth is pretty good at pounding Lilianas. I topdeck an Hazoret to block the last remaining Scavenging Ooze, but in response my opponent topdecks a BBE. Gg. Game 2 Blood Moon cuts him from black so I manage to get there eventually with a very brave Eternal Scourge. Game 3 he keeps a "discard" hand, so he's not applying enough pressure and by turn 4 I manage to stick a Dragon, then a Koth. Somehow he didn't draw removal and it's enough to win the match.
Match 4 (1-2)
Bogles
I got pretty lucky in the sense there was not any super big Bogles at any point. Opponent drew his auras rather poorly, thus all hope was not lost. I win game 1 by drawing my 2 only Sweltering Suns and swiping the board clean. Game 2 I don't draw any wipe effect and I simply die with 2 useless blood moons on the battlefield because opponent had fetched basics. Game 3 I have another useless blood moon, I don't draw any wipe effect nor the Bolts I haven't sided out, and I die to a small bogles alongside a Gaddock Teeg that prevented me from playing the planeswalkers I had in hand.
Conclusion : not at all satisfied by the deck so far, although I know I mustn't judge it too harshly for what's nothing else than a one-off experience.
I was very much looking forward to play it, it's a shame
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
Were you running Sweltering Sun or Anger of the Gods? Your account and decklist differ. Generally, with 3 Angers and 4 Relics, neither Voice nor Finks should be a problem.
I'd also run some more "destroy target artifact" SB cards. My list runs 2 Shattering Spree, 2 Vandalblast, and 2 Ratchet Bomb in the board. Affinity, Lantern, and other decks can be really hard otherwise.
Surprised you had issues with graveyard-based Jund. Usually, they fold to Relic.
Hello sorry to hear of your bad luck with the deck I have had a lot of good results switching to more sweepers and dropping the snow lands in favor of all mountains I know the deck is called skred but when blood moon starts becoming a dead card against 3 color decks something has to change also hazoret and lava axe play well together you can pitch those eternal scourge no one likes til the late game when you crack a relic and draw into some gas idk it has worked for me I got 3rd last week at my local fnm with my list posted above I beat bant coco with wolf run 2_0. 8 whack goblins 2_1.i lost to hollow one by not knowing his deck and getting stuck on 2 lands 0_2 and beat BW eldrazi 2_0 I hope this helps don't give up it's a great deck
Were you running Sweltering Sun or Anger of the Gods? Your account and decklist differ. Generally, with 3 Angers and 4 Relics, neither Voice nor Finks should be a problem.
I had 2 Sweltering Suns MD, 1 Anger and 1 Return of Kozilek in the SB (you're right, I switched a Roast for the Anger in the side at the last minute).
Two wipes MD is definitely too few, since I was almost always hoping to draw one. And the fact they were Sweltering Suns didn't help against Voices and Finks ; the cycling was never useful but the exile effect was sorely missed. I'll definitely drop them next time for more Angers main deck ^^
I'd also run some more "destroy target artifact" SB cards. My list runs 2 Shattering Spree, 2 Vandalblast, and 2 Ratchet Bomb in the board. Affinity, Lantern, and other decks can be really hard otherwise.
I can probably add some artifact removals in place of Ricochet Trap and 1 Rabblemaster =)
Surprised you had issues with graveyard-based Jund. Usually, they fold to Relic.
The thing is, Relic is not a permanent solution and I've never seen an opponent fold to it even when I played it in BW Eldrazi Processor. Case in point, in a game yesterday I nuked graveyards twice but it didn't take long before Tarmogoyfs were 5/6 again. Only the third relic finally brought him to an halt.
Boggles is always rough.
Yeah, it's a weird matchup. You kinda want to board out your removal spells but you still need them against Spiritdancers and Gaddock Teeg. I had a Ratchet Bomb at one point which would have done a great job if opponent hadn't drawn a Seal of Primordium.
Hello sorry to hear of your bad luck with the deck I have had a lot of good results switching to more sweepers and dropping the snow lands in favor of all mountains I know the deck is called skred but when blood moon starts becoming a dead card against 3 color decks something has to change also hazoret and lava axe play well together you can pitch those eternal scourge no one likes til the late game when you crack a relic and draw into some gas idk it has worked for me I got 3rd last week at my local fnm with my list posted above I beat bant coco with wolf run 2_0. 8 whack goblins 2_1.i lost to hollow one by not knowing his deck and getting stuck on 2 lands 0_2 and beat BW eldrazi 2_0 I hope this helps don't give up it's a great deck
Can I see your list ? =)
That's exactly like I felt yesterday : not enough sweepers, and dead-because-obvious blood moons against multicolored decks. Also I need to up the land count by at least 1 because the deaths were disheartening. Stormbreath Dragons were often dead cards because too expensive.
I only draw one Scourge last night but it felt better than I thought in this instance.
There's also this list that 5-0'd yesterday : https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1019145#paper
They kept the Snow Lands / Skred package but dropped all but 1 Blood Moon in favor of MD Molten Rain. Also dropped Dragons for Bedlam Revelers. Koth was pretty good though, I'm not sure I can get behind removing them all...
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
Creatures:
2 eternal scourge
2 pia and Kiran naalar
3 stormbreath dragon
1 Godo bandit warlord
Instant;
4 lightning bolt
Sorcery:
2 anger of the gods
2 sweltering suns
2 pyroclasm
Enchantment:
3 blood moon
Planeswalker;
4 koth of the hammer
2 chandra torch of defiance
Here is my list it has worked well there is another skred player in my meta playing snow lands and skred and I have got to watch games that he plays and everyone knows he's on a blood moon deck as soon as he plays a land most people unless they have played me before think I'm just a bad burn deck or some home brew jank until i drop blood moon or koth or some other monster beater usually I get to board wipe one occasionally twice and get to hold lightning bolt for high priority targets or to bun out the last few points of damage to win
Hi @semoreh if you need more spot removal id opt for lightning axe and drop godo in favor of hazoret they play well together also playing 6 sweepwers md works well against most decks that want to win fast i laso like the split of anger and suns because sometime I want to draw a lot of cards other time I need to kill a wurmcoil the split give me options. give it a try your meta might need more spot removal just some suggestions hope it helps
So, I've been playing Skred for a while. I must mention first that I came to this deck because I wanted to play with Koth. I've always loved that card and had them in my binder and wanted to get some use out of him again.
That being said, I have ultimately dropped Koth from my list. I'm surprised to see that everyone on Skred is still 100% on Koth. I started with a 4/2 split of Koth/Torch Chandra because she is insane. My split went to 3/3 then 2/4 as she was winning me more games, or getting me out of bad situations where Koth just couldn't. I've now dropped Koth completely since I find him to be too situational. I actually run 6 Chandras, the other two being Pyromasters.
I found with Koth, he was the best when the game was already under control, and he never got you out of a sticky situation. He had to stay in your hand until you got the board under control. Top decking Koth when you need something to help you stay alive is always a feel bad draw. Chandra on the other hand can get you back in the game.
And another reason I don't like Koth is Push. Losing a mountain to Push always feel horrible. Both can win games on their own, but she just brings more to the table overall. She also plays with Scourge a lot better.
Has anyone else tried to move away from Koth? I'm not sure 2 Pyromasters over 2 Koths is the right call, but I find that the Chandras give me more overall control with all of the extra drawing. And having two of them on the board at the same time is quite fun. I'll probably try Jaya once she's out as she seems to be a fun fit to the deck.
edit: Also, has anyone tried Walking Balista in the flex spot? I find a 1-of can be decent.
Koth is a core part of the build. But it is important to remember that Skred Red was originally a metagame choice--a reaction to the dominance if Splinter Twin combo years ago. That is the reason for the use of Skred (a card that can theoretically kill 4-toughness creatures at instant speed) and the choice of threats that were tough for control decks to answer. Dragons and Blood Moon were also devastating to Rhino and friends.
It is fair to ask if the deck needs to evolve. Koth and the Dragons are great against the predominant control archetype (UW), but less good against things like Jund. Lowering Koth count seems reasonable in that field. The introduction of Damping Spheres is likely to have pronounced effects on the metagame, which may cause UW Control to either increase or decrease relative to Jund as a secondary effect of the impact on Storm and Tron.
Turn 3 or 4 koth after a board wipe or bolting their t2 creature always feels good to me especially if you use his minus ability to drop a pia and Kiran or a blood moon and lock someone out for a couple turns I usually try to ult him as soon as possible even if that means losing koth. the benefit to have all your mountains be able to keep the board clear or apply pressure is really hard for most decks to deal with I have the 4/2 split in my deck but I would be will ing to drop a koth for a pyromaster because late game koth does feel bad when you want a dragon or somthing else
I think my issue with Koth is that he's more of an aggro card, and this is essentially a control deck. Both Chandras are more control than Koth, so I find his value situational. Early drop is great. Drop on a clean board is great, but there are situations where he's a dead draw. This being a control deck, I don't like his inconsistency. He's great or he's bad. No middle ground. I guess I see the Dragons as my main win condition with Chandra as my secondary win con (and yes, she wins games on her own).
Anyway, thanks guys for your comments/opinions
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Modern: RG Ponza / Some Number of Racks / Skred / Dredgevine
Legacy: UB Reanimator / LEDless Dredge
I do agree that he isn't always what we want to see. What he can do when we're behind is very situational. He can remove or cripple a planeswalker if the board is empty, force some damage through, or eat a couple points of damage. The fact that more lists are moving towards a 3/3 split of Koth and Chandra ToD says something about Chandra's power. I can easily see a version of Skred that doesn't want Koth and would gladly take seeing more cards than a 4/4 beater, especially if you want the game to go long. However, the fact that many people are playing large haymakers like Wurmcoil Engine or even stuff like Obliterate makes Koth the better choice. If you're going big, you want that minus ability more than anything. This doesn't mean he can't be phased out (I can see a lot of reasons why perhaps he should be), but in the most common shell he's a powerhouse. I'm actually rather curious about your list, DarthFrog. I've thought about Kothless Skred in the past but never put a list together. Do you mind sharing it?
On roughly the same topic, I've gone back to playing Magma Jet over Mind Stone. If GBx is going to be a major part of the metagame, being able to consistently kill their turn 2 creatures is one of the best plays we have. When I first picked up the deck in September, just a few months before the Twin ban, Magma Jet was surprisingly powerful. Additionally, it gives us better game ones against some of our worst matchups. Extra burn against Tron, Ad Nauseam, and Storm is a nice bonus. Plus, it scries, which in my opinion and testing has proven to be surprisingly more beneficial than the card draw. While this may be counterintuitive, let me breakdown Mind Stone and Magma Jet before you write this off.
Mind Stone is a mana rock, plain and simple. It's great for putting out our four drops on turn two and smooths out our mana. It also gives us the ability to play giant spells, like Wurmcoil Engine, and some more hilarious options like Sundering Titan and Form of the Dragon (I see you oko!). In a pinch, we can cycle it. However, that's all this card does. It only let's us play marginally faster, and if we draw it when it's dead it costs three mana to turn it into something else that may also be dead. Three mana for one card is a terrible rate, and while this only applies when we cannot utilize the mana, if we're playing the full four copies this will come up every few matches. Mind Stone can function as a banked Shock with P&K, but it doesn't also costs two or three mana -- depending on if we tap the sacrificed Stone to pay the mana for the ability -- to punch even deal damage. once you factor in the cost of actually casting Mind Stone, it become four to five mana to deal two damage. That's just terrible at best. Furthermore, the influence that it has on our mulligan decisions is very important. I've found that two-mana hands (hands with only two mana sources) are almost always unkeepable because we really need four mana to come online and need to guarantee ourselves at least three mana without needing to draw another mana source. Two lands plus a Stone is actually fine because it gets us where we want to be while allowing us to cast our removal. Enter Kolaghan's Command. This card sees play in just about every RB deck in the format, and with good reason. That Shatter ability becomes a Stone Rain with extra value stapled on. It can, and has, won games simply because we can be too reliant on a mana rock to get us to three and four mana. Kommand is downright deadly for us if we're jamming Mind Stone, and the fact that they can attack our mana with it makes us needlessly vulnerable to it.
Magma Jet is also a two mana play, giving us action on an otherwise bare spot on the curve. Instead of being mana acceleration, it gives us yet another answer to early game creatures. because it isn't an additional mana source, we have to chop down the curve a bit; we can't jam our 6+ mana cards. True, it only deals two damage, but when you think about it most of the low-casting cost creatures we decide to hurl a Bolt at don't have three toughness, but rather two or less. We can answer a turn two creature and save our more potent removal for larger creatures. While a two mana Shock is pretty bad, this one comes with scry 2. Scrying allows us to dig for what we need, be it lands, more removal, or extra threats, and while we aren't guaranteed to see what we want in our top two cards, we can help find it by bottoming the chaff. This adds up to three cards (two from scrying, one from our draw step). The general consensus is that a single scry is worth half a card, so this can effectively be considered a card plus a shock. For two mana, we get to kill something and then fix our draw a little bit. That's already great. However, Magma Jet bears one more characteristic that Mind Stone doesn't: It's never a dead draw. While drawing a burn spell may seem irrelevant on certain board states, it always does something. We can pick of a small creature, or in the absence of one use it as a pseudo combat trick and pair it with blocking to answer a larger one. It can at the very least keep an opposing planeswalker off of their ult, or put it below the necessary loyalty needed to use an ability (such as putting Liliana of the Veil to one loyalty, removing the edict ability as an option). We can even just through it at our opponent's face. At the very least, it's two less damage that we need to deal and we get some digging. In our worst matchups, we have to be as aggressive as possible, an aspect Mind Stone in no way helps us in unless we have something to ramp in to. Magma Jet makes those first games better while also finding us what we need. While some players may be concerned about losing their massive top end finishers, Jet removes that necessity by making our draws better in general.
TLDR:
Mind Stone is three mana for one card: Magma Jet is two mana to dig two or three cards deep, depending on if you count your next draw step in addition to dealing damage to something
Mind Stone will almost always be dead lategame: Magma Jet can always hit something, even if it's just our opponent's face
Mind Stone smooths out our mana: Magma Jet helps us find whatever we need
Mind Stone needs other cards to make us faster in our bad matchups: Magma Jet does it one its own and then scries
Due to all of these reasons, I don't think Mind Stone is anywhere near good enough for our deck at this time. Magma Jet offers so much utility, and frankly I found cutting down the curve made me win more. We don't need Wurmcoil Engines and the like if we can set up better draws. Stormbreath Dragons, Koths (because I'm still playing them), Chandra ToF, and the one-of Hazoret I'm trying have been enough. While it may be a metagame choice, you don't really need Mind Stone against things like Control anyway because our threats are just that good. Plus, you generally start throwing Bolts at the face early when you know you're against Control, so why Magma Jet wouldn't be treated the same way makes no sense.
I started on Magma Jet, and think I may end up back there, for all the reasons you said. I'd rather have Mind Stone if turn 3 Koth, turn 4 Stormbreath is a reliable attack path, but that's not true in a meta dominated by ground-aggro. Magma Jet isn't ideal (2 damage is a bit small) but it's not nothing, and smoothing draws early is bigger than the late game replacement effect. The only other significant loss is the inevitable to use it with PnKN as a Shock, and I'm not sure conditional, 5-mana shocks are good enough.
I'm actually rather curious about your list, DarthFrog. I've thought about Kothless Skred in the past but never put a list together. Do you mind sharing it?
My list keeps changing here and there, but here is the list as I remember it in the last solo tourney I played (finished one win away from top 8 due to a horrible play mistake on my part where I took action before realizing I had not placed my PnKN thopter tokens and my opp did not allow me to backtrack which cost me the match against a favourable matchup)
Sideboard had a few of the usual including the 4th Blood Moon, but also contained two Ensnaring Bridge which won me a couple of games.
I agree with you in a way with Magma Jet, but because this deck is conrol, I like the 27 mana sources. I found the two damage was not enough to make a real impact. I've since switched to 2 Abrades as I find the ability to kill an Aether Vial on turn 2 when they keep a one land one vial hand are free wins. That it doesn't hit players sucks, but the ability to Lightning Strike or Shatter on one card is pretty sweet. I'm heading to a tournament this coming weekend and will be running Glorybringer and dropping a PnKN. Been testing it online and find he's come through on a number of occasions, but still not 100% sold on it. Same goes for Walking Balista. I've liked him enough to keep one around, but he would be an easy cut if a better T2 threat was to come around.
I'll post my final deck list and results post tournament.
As for Koth, he still lives in the deck. People see snow-covered mountains and they play around the Koth probabilities that never come around. I had a few people ask me curiously if I run him as they don't see him in three games, but see two different Chandras
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Standard: N/A
Modern: RG Ponza / Some Number of Racks / Skred / Dredgevine
Legacy: UB Reanimator / LEDless Dredge
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I'm bringing the deck for the first time to my LGS on Wednesday. Can't wait to try it out. There are so many Junds out there I want to blood moon away.
I agree with you that Eternal Scourge is not super exciting, but I'll try it in my vanilla list on Wednesday. If it doesn't convince me I'll go with the reckoner next time, which would be quite interesting in my meta I think (there are some Affinity, Burn and Goblins roaming around).
I play Bogles occasionnally (although not very often these days), and I assure you that Bogles is super scared of Blood Moon. When it's out you simply stop casting spells and must win with what's already on board. It's a coin flip, but Bogles is terrified by Skred too
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
Against Jund, you have Relic against Tarmogoyf, and once that's gone usually Karn or a Dragon immediately takes out Lili. Reckoner halts their attack unless they have Push, and PnKN stalls well while threatening Lili also. Finally, an early Blood Moon can severely limit their options.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I'll post a list soon
Land:
23 mountain
Artifacts:
1 pyrite spellbomb
1 batterskull
4 relic of progenitus
4 mindstone
Creatures:
2 eternal scourge
2 pia and Kiran naalar
3 stormbreath dragon
1 Godo bandit warlord
Instant;
4 lightning bolt
Sorcery:
2 anger of the gods
2 sweltering suns
2 pyroclasm
Enchantment:
3 blood moon
Planeswalker;
4 koth of the hammer
2 chandra torch of defiance
I know this is the skred thread and I used to play the snow lands and skred but whenever my opponent saw turn one snow covered mountain they would instantly begin fetching basics rendering blood moon almost useless also while I liked skred it didn't seem to do enough in the early game on the draw. it would almost be dead removal because my bolts took care of most things then I would find I would miss a land drop and have no way to deal with tasigur, gurmag angler and reality smasher thanks for looking any recomendations or critisism welcome i also have quite a few fnm reports as well if anyone is interested thanks
I was playing the following list :
2x Eternal Scourge
1x Hazoret the Fervent
3x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3x Stormbreath Dragon
Instant (8)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Skred
Planeswalker (6)
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Koth of the Hammer
4x Mind Stone
1x Ratchet Bomb
4x Relic of Progenitus
Land (22)
1x Mouth of Ronom
2x Scrying Sheets
19x Snow-Covered Mountain
Sorcery (2)
2x Anger of the Gods
Enchantment (4)
4x Blood Moon
1x Dismember
3x Dragon's Claw
2x Goblin Rabblemaster
1x Kozilek's Return
4x Molten Rain
1x Ricochet Trap
1x Roast
2x Shattering Spree
Match 1 (1-2)
4c Saheeli
Kitchen Finks and Voices of Resurgence were super hard to handle. With only two Sweltering Suns MD I got very quickly overrun. Anyway 3 damage were not always enough to kill a Tarmogoyf, Felidar Guardians and Sigarda so I had to cumulate. Blood moons were okay but not game breaking for my opponent because as soon as they saw a Snow Covered Mountain they started fetching basics. They also had mana dorks and somehow I never got to bolt them quick enough.
Koth's ultimate won me game 2, but I had to struggle a little.
Game 3 (on the draw), I do T1 land, T2 Mind Stone, T3 "well it's already a bit too late isn't it ?".
Match 2 (1-2)
Hardened Scale Affinity (similar to this but without the snakes)
This deck is probably worse than "normal" affinity for us. Arcbound Workers and Ravagers are so hard to kill because they can just move their counters upon death, so pinpoint removal like Bolt or Skred are horribly unefficient. You need to kill everything at once, including Blinkmoth Nexuses, but even then our 3dmg wrath aren't often enough. Game 1 opponent had the nuts and I conceeded on turn 4 because the board was already unbeatable. I managed to steal Game 2 that was about to go awry with a surprise Return of Kozilek which swiped both his Etched Champion and several small artifact creatures. But then game 3 I lost in response to a Shattering Spree with a Ravager sacking everything with a Hardened Scale on the field and then dumping all the counters on a ballista who proceeded to deal me 14 damage for lethal.
Match 3 (2-1)
Jund delirium
Opponent was playing a very singular list, Delirium-focused (playing Traverse, Whispers of Emrakul, baubles, street wraith, etc...). Game 1 is pretty rough for me, with Tarmogoyfs and BBE lowering my life real fast. I manage to handle them and we both go into topdeck mode, but my life is very low. Koth is pretty good at pounding Lilianas. I topdeck an Hazoret to block the last remaining Scavenging Ooze, but in response my opponent topdecks a BBE. Gg. Game 2 Blood Moon cuts him from black so I manage to get there eventually with a very brave Eternal Scourge. Game 3 he keeps a "discard" hand, so he's not applying enough pressure and by turn 4 I manage to stick a Dragon, then a Koth. Somehow he didn't draw removal and it's enough to win the match.
Match 4 (1-2)
Bogles
I got pretty lucky in the sense there was not any super big Bogles at any point. Opponent drew his auras rather poorly, thus all hope was not lost. I win game 1 by drawing my 2 only Sweltering Suns and swiping the board clean. Game 2 I don't draw any wipe effect and I simply die with 2 useless blood moons on the battlefield because opponent had fetched basics. Game 3 I have another useless blood moon, I don't draw any wipe effect nor the Bolts I haven't sided out, and I die to a small bogles alongside a Gaddock Teeg that prevented me from playing the planeswalkers I had in hand.
Conclusion : not at all satisfied by the deck so far, although I know I mustn't judge it too harshly for what's nothing else than a one-off experience.
I was very much looking forward to play it, it's a shame
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
I'd also run some more "destroy target artifact" SB cards. My list runs 2 Shattering Spree, 2 Vandalblast, and 2 Ratchet Bomb in the board. Affinity, Lantern, and other decks can be really hard otherwise.
Surprised you had issues with graveyard-based Jund. Usually, they fold to Relic.
Boggles is always rough.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I had 2 Sweltering Suns MD, 1 Anger and 1 Return of Kozilek in the SB (you're right, I switched a Roast for the Anger in the side at the last minute).
Two wipes MD is definitely too few, since I was almost always hoping to draw one. And the fact they were Sweltering Suns didn't help against Voices and Finks ; the cycling was never useful but the exile effect was sorely missed. I'll definitely drop them next time for more Angers main deck ^^
I can probably add some artifact removals in place of Ricochet Trap and 1 Rabblemaster =)
The thing is, Relic is not a permanent solution and I've never seen an opponent fold to it even when I played it in BW Eldrazi Processor. Case in point, in a game yesterday I nuked graveyards twice but it didn't take long before Tarmogoyfs were 5/6 again. Only the third relic finally brought him to an halt.
Yeah, it's a weird matchup. You kinda want to board out your removal spells but you still need them against Spiritdancers and Gaddock Teeg. I had a Ratchet Bomb at one point which would have done a great job if opponent hadn't drawn a Seal of Primordium.
Can I see your list ? =)
That's exactly like I felt yesterday : not enough sweepers, and dead-because-obvious blood moons against multicolored decks. Also I need to up the land count by at least 1 because the deaths were disheartening. Stormbreath Dragons were often dead cards because too expensive.
I only draw one Scourge last night but it felt better than I thought in this instance.
There's also this list that 5-0'd yesterday : https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1019145#paper
They kept the Snow Lands / Skred package but dropped all but 1 Blood Moon in favor of MD Molten Rain. Also dropped Dragons for Bedlam Revelers. Koth was pretty good though, I'm not sure I can get behind removing them all...
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
23 mountain
Artifacts:
1 pyrite spellbomb
1 batterskull
4 relic of progenitus
4 mindstone
Creatures:
2 eternal scourge
2 pia and Kiran naalar
3 stormbreath dragon
1 Godo bandit warlord
Instant;
4 lightning bolt
Sorcery:
2 anger of the gods
2 sweltering suns
2 pyroclasm
Enchantment:
3 blood moon
Planeswalker;
4 koth of the hammer
2 chandra torch of defiance
Here is my list it has worked well there is another skred player in my meta playing snow lands and skred and I have got to watch games that he plays and everyone knows he's on a blood moon deck as soon as he plays a land most people unless they have played me before think I'm just a bad burn deck or some home brew jank until i drop blood moon or koth or some other monster beater usually I get to board wipe one occasionally twice and get to hold lightning bolt for high priority targets or to bun out the last few points of damage to win
That being said, I have ultimately dropped Koth from my list. I'm surprised to see that everyone on Skred is still 100% on Koth. I started with a 4/2 split of Koth/Torch Chandra because she is insane. My split went to 3/3 then 2/4 as she was winning me more games, or getting me out of bad situations where Koth just couldn't. I've now dropped Koth completely since I find him to be too situational. I actually run 6 Chandras, the other two being Pyromasters.
I found with Koth, he was the best when the game was already under control, and he never got you out of a sticky situation. He had to stay in your hand until you got the board under control. Top decking Koth when you need something to help you stay alive is always a feel bad draw. Chandra on the other hand can get you back in the game.
And another reason I don't like Koth is Push. Losing a mountain to Push always feel horrible. Both can win games on their own, but she just brings more to the table overall. She also plays with Scourge a lot better.
Has anyone else tried to move away from Koth? I'm not sure 2 Pyromasters over 2 Koths is the right call, but I find that the Chandras give me more overall control with all of the extra drawing. And having two of them on the board at the same time is quite fun. I'll probably try Jaya once she's out as she seems to be a fun fit to the deck.
edit: Also, has anyone tried Walking Balista in the flex spot? I find a 1-of can be decent.
Modern: RG Ponza / Some Number of Racks / Skred / Dredgevine
Legacy: UB Reanimator / LEDless Dredge
It is fair to ask if the deck needs to evolve. Koth and the Dragons are great against the predominant control archetype (UW), but less good against things like Jund. Lowering Koth count seems reasonable in that field. The introduction of Damping Spheres is likely to have pronounced effects on the metagame, which may cause UW Control to either increase or decrease relative to Jund as a secondary effect of the impact on Storm and Tron.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Anyway, thanks guys for your comments/opinions
Modern: RG Ponza / Some Number of Racks / Skred / Dredgevine
Legacy: UB Reanimator / LEDless Dredge
On roughly the same topic, I've gone back to playing Magma Jet over Mind Stone. If GBx is going to be a major part of the metagame, being able to consistently kill their turn 2 creatures is one of the best plays we have. When I first picked up the deck in September, just a few months before the Twin ban, Magma Jet was surprisingly powerful. Additionally, it gives us better game ones against some of our worst matchups. Extra burn against Tron, Ad Nauseam, and Storm is a nice bonus. Plus, it scries, which in my opinion and testing has proven to be surprisingly more beneficial than the card draw. While this may be counterintuitive, let me breakdown Mind Stone and Magma Jet before you write this off.
Mind Stone is a mana rock, plain and simple. It's great for putting out our four drops on turn two and smooths out our mana. It also gives us the ability to play giant spells, like Wurmcoil Engine, and some more hilarious options like Sundering Titan and Form of the Dragon (I see you oko!). In a pinch, we can cycle it. However, that's all this card does. It only let's us play marginally faster, and if we draw it when it's dead it costs three mana to turn it into something else that may also be dead. Three mana for one card is a terrible rate, and while this only applies when we cannot utilize the mana, if we're playing the full four copies this will come up every few matches. Mind Stone can function as a banked Shock with P&K, but it doesn't also costs two or three mana -- depending on if we tap the sacrificed Stone to pay the mana for the ability -- to punch even deal damage. once you factor in the cost of actually casting Mind Stone, it become four to five mana to deal two damage. That's just terrible at best. Furthermore, the influence that it has on our mulligan decisions is very important. I've found that two-mana hands (hands with only two mana sources) are almost always unkeepable because we really need four mana to come online and need to guarantee ourselves at least three mana without needing to draw another mana source. Two lands plus a Stone is actually fine because it gets us where we want to be while allowing us to cast our removal. Enter Kolaghan's Command. This card sees play in just about every RB deck in the format, and with good reason. That Shatter ability becomes a Stone Rain with extra value stapled on. It can, and has, won games simply because we can be too reliant on a mana rock to get us to three and four mana. Kommand is downright deadly for us if we're jamming Mind Stone, and the fact that they can attack our mana with it makes us needlessly vulnerable to it.
Magma Jet is also a two mana play, giving us action on an otherwise bare spot on the curve. Instead of being mana acceleration, it gives us yet another answer to early game creatures. because it isn't an additional mana source, we have to chop down the curve a bit; we can't jam our 6+ mana cards. True, it only deals two damage, but when you think about it most of the low-casting cost creatures we decide to hurl a Bolt at don't have three toughness, but rather two or less. We can answer a turn two creature and save our more potent removal for larger creatures. While a two mana Shock is pretty bad, this one comes with scry 2. Scrying allows us to dig for what we need, be it lands, more removal, or extra threats, and while we aren't guaranteed to see what we want in our top two cards, we can help find it by bottoming the chaff. This adds up to three cards (two from scrying, one from our draw step). The general consensus is that a single scry is worth half a card, so this can effectively be considered a card plus a shock. For two mana, we get to kill something and then fix our draw a little bit. That's already great. However, Magma Jet bears one more characteristic that Mind Stone doesn't: It's never a dead draw. While drawing a burn spell may seem irrelevant on certain board states, it always does something. We can pick of a small creature, or in the absence of one use it as a pseudo combat trick and pair it with blocking to answer a larger one. It can at the very least keep an opposing planeswalker off of their ult, or put it below the necessary loyalty needed to use an ability (such as putting Liliana of the Veil to one loyalty, removing the edict ability as an option). We can even just through it at our opponent's face. At the very least, it's two less damage that we need to deal and we get some digging. In our worst matchups, we have to be as aggressive as possible, an aspect Mind Stone in no way helps us in unless we have something to ramp in to. Magma Jet makes those first games better while also finding us what we need. While some players may be concerned about losing their massive top end finishers, Jet removes that necessity by making our draws better in general.
TLDR:
Due to all of these reasons, I don't think Mind Stone is anywhere near good enough for our deck at this time. Magma Jet offers so much utility, and frankly I found cutting down the curve made me win more. We don't need Wurmcoil Engines and the like if we can set up better draws. Stormbreath Dragons, Koths (because I'm still playing them), Chandra ToF, and the one-of Hazoret I'm trying have been enough. While it may be a metagame choice, you don't really need Mind Stone against things like Control anyway because our threats are just that good. Plus, you generally start throwing Bolts at the face early when you know you're against Control, so why Magma Jet wouldn't be treated the same way makes no sense.
EDIT: Here's my current list, for reference
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Eternal Scourge
1 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Blood Moon
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
4 Magma Jet
21 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Koth of the Hammer
3 Sweltering Suns
3 Dragon's Claw
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Ricochet Trap
2 Molten Rain
1 Shattering Spree
1 Shatterstorm
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
My list keeps changing here and there, but here is the list as I remember it in the last solo tourney I played (finished one win away from top 8 due to a horrible play mistake on my part where I took action before realizing I had not placed my PnKN thopter tokens and my opp did not allow me to backtrack which cost me the match against a favourable matchup)
1 Magma Jet
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Blood Moon
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Mind Stone
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Skred
2 Eternal Scourge
2 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Walking Ballista
2 Scrying Sheets
21 Snow-Covered Mountain
Sideboard had a few of the usual including the 4th Blood Moon, but also contained two Ensnaring Bridge which won me a couple of games.
I agree with you in a way with Magma Jet, but because this deck is conrol, I like the 27 mana sources. I found the two damage was not enough to make a real impact. I've since switched to 2 Abrades as I find the ability to kill an Aether Vial on turn 2 when they keep a one land one vial hand are free wins. That it doesn't hit players sucks, but the ability to Lightning Strike or Shatter on one card is pretty sweet. I'm heading to a tournament this coming weekend and will be running Glorybringer and dropping a PnKN. Been testing it online and find he's come through on a number of occasions, but still not 100% sold on it. Same goes for Walking Balista. I've liked him enough to keep one around, but he would be an easy cut if a better T2 threat was to come around.
I'll post my final deck list and results post tournament.
As for Koth, he still lives in the deck. People see snow-covered mountains and they play around the Koth probabilities that never come around. I had a few people ask me curiously if I run him as they don't see him in three games, but see two different Chandras
Modern: RG Ponza / Some Number of Racks / Skred / Dredgevine
Legacy: UB Reanimator / LEDless Dredge