For anyone who is currently building Skred, I noticed CoolStuffInc has Scrying Sheets and Snow-Covered Mountains on sale. Even though the basics are only 50 cents off (USD), that adds up pretty fast when you need 20+ of them. Of you still need a few Mountains or your Sheets, you can save some money for things that aren't overpriced basic lands.
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Got to play my first post-unban Modern last night. Thinking that everyone would be packing their Jaces, I ran my usual list with this board:
3 Rabblemaster (at this point, I consider this a sideboard staple)
3 Molten Rain (ditto, especially if you're expecting control)
2 Ricochet Trap (haven't played it in a year or so, but thought there'd be a spike in blue)
3 Shattering Spree (I've been liking 3, given how many applications it has)
4 Dragon's Claw (since I'm not on Reckoner, I want the full 4 for Burn)
Wound up going 2-2; I beat Vizier Combo and UW Control, and lost to 5C Humans and Shadow. Thoughts:
- I consider Shadow to be 50:50, or maybe slightly in our favor. I lost game 3 to him going T1 Inquisition, T2 Thoughtseize + Shadow, T3 Angler. Not much you can do about that.
- The Richochet Traps weren't necessary. Jace hasn't made that matchup any better for UW, and our maindeck + Molten Rain is already pretty favored.
- I hate losing to decks like 5C, because they're our bread and butter. As such, I think I'll turn the Richochets into Kozilek's Returns.
In short: I don't think we need to commit extra slots of Jace decks, especially if those slots come at the expense of other matchups.
I agree, the decks that want to play JtMS we aleady have good matchups against. If Shadow isn't running battlerage I find we are favored, however if they are, it gets a lot harder for us. Have you considered going down 1 dragons claw and 1 shattering spree and testing out witchbane orb? It's done wonders for me on many occasions while adding more utility to our board (but still hosing burn). Just some thoughts.
and we for sure lose to ad naues. 2 times i've beat it it's because i got the t3 moon and they had no mana rocks, followed up with a koth
I sure am interested by your lists. I was dead sure this deck wasn't affordable for me because I still pictured it playing 4x Ensnaring Bridge (and maybe Chalice) which was definitely out of my price range.
Plus it's obvious the mono R Challenger deck is a godsend to deflate the price of both Chandra and Hazoreth.
In response to TexasGoyf regarding Kozilek's Return : are you sure this is the best sideboard card againts human ? They can grow pretty fast out of the 2Dmg range, and some humans are already naturally 3 toughness (reflector). I don't see how instant speed makes it better than Anger of the Gods, could you explain ? :
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
I bought a foil Hez and altered my Chandra’s and then they announced the pre-con standard decks lol. I’m not too upset as the price of these cards was sure to drop when the rotations hit them. It’s cool that it can help others get into this archetype, though Hez is best as a one of, in my opinion.
I’ve found kozilek’s return to be best for infect and affinity. Against humans it’s okay, but honestly once they start growing rapidly the wipes we have access to usually don’t cut it. It’s here where we bring in roast and dismember.
I’ve traded up Anger of the Gods for Sweltering Suns. Anger does offer us a slightly better game against dredge and Abzan coco and yeah it synergizes with scourge a bit better, but there have been so many game ones where I drew a wipe and it was useless. Eldrazi Tron, Tron, u/w/x Control, Burn, Ad Naus, Storm, B/g/x midrange. The ability to cycle a dead card in game ones has been fantastic, and for the most part it still handles the majority of creature decks the way we want it to.
I’m currently using the list Trevor May topped with back in January, with the only changes being -2 AotG +2 Sweltering Suns. I’ve been crushing many other midrange and control decks. Infect and affinity aren’t too hard. Blood moon honestly just hoses some decks altogether. Ds is 50/50. Etron and tron can be a bit tough, but an early blood moon can sometimes allow us to race them. A Koth and Hez/stormy can kill quick. Molten rain is good stuff. Skreding a land is hilarious. Burn can be a *****, but dragons claw is real good.
Anyways, this is just my .02
Have a 1k today at MTGfirst in MD, so we will see how that goes. Wish me luck dudes!
The Chalice/Bridge deck your referring to is called "Free Win Red." They also frequently pack Blood Moon, and rituals, and rely on powering out a fast, highly-disruptive permanent. The deck can auto-win a lot (hence the name), but it is much less stable against decks that can remove the permanent.
As for anti-Humans tech, I agree that Return is a bit too weak. Anger or Suns is okay, but not ideal either. You can get some mileage with Ratchet Bomb on the play, though. Otherwise, you kill what they cast one-by-one until Stormbreath comes down and simply ends the game.
I still vacillate between Anger and Fallout, personally. The fact that Fallout damage players and punches through countermagic has often been relevant, but seems less important these days. Anger has the advantage of killing several decks on the spot (Elves, Dredge, etc.), which Suns or Return are less impressive against. Ultimately, I think the sweeper of choice remains a metagame call.
I think Sweltering Suns is the way to go for the maindeck sweeper for the obvious ability to cycle it when it is not needed. I also like it post-board versus storm where you might need to clean up tokens but may need to cycle it for a more relevant card. I think whether to go with Anger or Return for sideboard sweepers depends on the rest of your 75. If you are short on graveyard hate from things like Relic and Cage, you may want to dedicate these slots to Anger. If you are short on anti-Protection-from-Red cards like Eternal Scourge or Pyrite Spellbomb, you may want to dedicate the slots to Kozilek's Return.
I haven't personally tried Fallout but I can't think of decks that have a lot of small creatures as well as countermagic (except for Spell Queller, which doesn't counter.).
I find that Kozilek's return is still good versus Humans. Your other early interaction can often keep them from growing too big and really even if Return only hits one Human, I am happy to slow them down and reduce some of their synergy while I have time to draw into Stormbreath. Of course, 3 damage would be better here to get Mantis Rider, but Return is still a card I want in the matchup.
Have you considered going down 1 dragons claw and 1 shattering spree and testing out witchbane orb? It's done wonders for me on many occasions while adding more utility to our board (but still hosing burn). Just some thoughts.
Witchbane's an interesting thought - maybe I'll give that a try!
In response to TexasGoyf regarding Kozilek's Return : are you sure this is the best sideboard card againts human ? They can grow pretty fast out of the 2Dmg range, and some humans are already naturally 3 toughness (reflector). I don't see how instant speed makes it better than Anger of the Gods, could you explain ? :
Kozilek's Return is absolutely not the best card against 5C Humans, but it's OK against them and very good in some other matchups (Elves, Affinity, Infect, etc). Almost every Skred list runs 3 maindeck Anger, so Kozilek's Return is just added insurance against go-wide decks. You could also play Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout, Ratchet Bomb, or Sweltering Suns in the board; I personally value instant speed + getting around pro Red, but that's up to you. Alternatively, some extra spot removal like Roast or Pyrite Spellbomb would also be a fine use of sideboard slots.
I’m also on Sweltering Suns, but only as a two of. I find that between that, skred, and bolt, there is plenty of main deck removal.
It seems that 22 lands is the consensus. In my own experience this deck has flooded out s few times, and going above 22 lands with 4 mana rocks in the deck seems excessive.
Spitebellows at best is 3 mana for 6 damage and at worst a six drop that doesn’t immedialty impact the board and whose effect may not even prove useful. I would personally cut it from the main for another Chandra, Torch of Defiance. She can hit a critter for 4 and still leave up a permenat for the opponent to contended with. She can burn the opponent, “draw” us into play, or ramp us.
I would really try to find room for the fourth maindeck blood moon. It’s never good to draw multiples, but it’s so good in so many match ups that I want to see it in the first few draws as often as I can. It’s just that powerful.
The scourges have been just OK for me too, but I’ve yet to test anything else in their place. I would try to find room for a third Nalaar couple. They’re so good at grinding and can have some reach with their ability.
Slitebellows->Chandra
Land->Bloodmoon
Commune with Lava-> Pkn
1 Sweltering Suns-> Ratchet Bomb
Rachet bomb has some reach still that out other removal doesn’t.
The Chalice/Bridge deck your referring to is called "Free Win Red." They also frequently pack Blood Moon, and rituals, and rely on powering out a fast, highly-disruptive permanent. The deck can auto-win a lot (hence the name), but it is much less stable against decks that can remove the permanent.
Thanks for the explanation
I also get the point of Kozilek's Return better. In my LGS I've yet to see a single infect, but there are some affinity decks playing the occasionnal Etched Champion. I don't know if it's enough to dedicate one board slot for this but I'll adjust to the meta.
Funnily enough, I also play a rogue Mono W Prison deck that (I think) is the worst ennemy of Skred Red x)
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French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
22 lands feels pretty low, imo. We play a ton of four drops, and need to cast them to win. I've actually been on 24 for a while but I'm about to drop to 23 because I also find myself flooding out a little bit. The truly awkward thing about 22 lands is our mulligan plan: two lands, no mana rock is one of the worst openers. I have never done well when I kept a seven like that. Even being on the draw, it's still pretty bad. I would play 23 at a minimum. You really need to hit your lands drops, and we need to have plenty of mana anyway, so a few extra lands aren't bad.
I've wondered about Scourge for a while too. I don't know if we should move away from it or not. On one hand, it can be insane against fair decks, which will be the majority of the meta for the next few weeks while everyone jams BBE and JTMS. On the other hand, when it's bad, it's a dumpster fire. It can be one of the least impactful cards in the deck. While the fair decks have plenty of ways to get rid of it, they can never answer it permanently. With the rise of Jund, maybe we go back to Reckoner? I think it's worth trying again.
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I like Reckoner a lot. Fatal Push can be annoying, but it's surprising just how many decks this guy beats on his own.
Going back to Earthquake is interesting, but seems a bit slow usually. How often do we need more than X=3?
As for land count, 22 + 4 Stones seems to work for me. At one point, I played 23 + Jets instead, which was also pretty decent. It's a lot less good when Jet is rarely handy as creature removal.
Would removing Eternal Scourge for Reckoner also implie we go down on Relics or is this not related ?
Scourge never had anything to do with MB relics. Skred has played MB relics almost since it's inception. It's just that creature just happened to have good synergy at the time. I personally think MB relics are still awesome and Eternal Scourge is borderline unplayable right now.
I'm not sure about Reckoner either. The format has switched heavily towards creatures with almost all decks looking to never lose to JTMS. With more creatures you would think Reckoner would be a slam dunk card. The only problem is all the creature decks are on red and Lightning Bolt is back in the format with business. Sure, it pings the player but nobody really cares. A 3cmc card is not worth just 3 dmg which is what Reckoner ends up doing most of the time. Skred plays so few creatures he's just a magnet for removal immediately. I feel like we would need more creatures than usual if you wanted to play him. Also he energizes with Volcanic Fallout.
I originally started doing the 2/3 split with Eternal Scourge and Boros Reckoner because I liked them both and wanted to lower my curve. Since I never found a reason to change it, and had a pretty good win rate (I however have not been keeping very good track, so I have no percentages for you), I never had a reason to change it.
The higher creature count and the fact that my local meta is light on the creature decks makes it better to only have one sweeper main with the rest in the side. Along with lowering the count, having the mainboard sweeper be Sweltering Suns instead of Anger of the Gods means that you never have a dead sweeper in hand.
The Dismembers are to bolster the Eldrazi Tron matchup, of which there are multiple in meta. If I did not expect to be playing against Eldrazi 2 out of 3 weeks, It would probably only be one or two in the board instead of one main, one side.</p>
I literally just got the Obliterate and 4th Blood Moon for the sideboard, so I have not played with them yet and cannot justify them.
Overall, it feels closer to the midrange end of the spectrum than control.
Separate from my card choices, I saw a list that got 6th at a SCG IQ that had a one of Treasure Map mainboard. What do you guys think of it?
Has anyone else been on Hazoret? I have one of her in my main and she’s been an absolute house. She’s blatant target for path to exile, but outside of that not too much can get ride of her. She can hit hard, block for days, and can pitch useless cards for some damage. She’s one of the reasons I don’t mind running my 4th maindeck bloodmoon.
Scourge is still a card I don’t know what to do with. Honestly at this point it feels like I’m playing him just to fill two spots up. I know the argument is that reckoner sucks it to removal, but so does scourge, and there have been so many times on my following turn I rather cast something else than recast scourge, though if you’re top decking lands or happen to have the mana a reoccurring blocker/creature can be good. Idk.
I’ve been rocking a maindeck rachet bomb and it has also done wonders. It has used against nearly all decks and forces your opponent to play around it often.
3 Rabblemaster (at this point, I consider this a sideboard staple)
3 Molten Rain (ditto, especially if you're expecting control)
2 Ricochet Trap (haven't played it in a year or so, but thought there'd be a spike in blue)
3 Shattering Spree (I've been liking 3, given how many applications it has)
4 Dragon's Claw (since I'm not on Reckoner, I want the full 4 for Burn)
Wound up going 2-2; I beat Vizier Combo and UW Control, and lost to 5C Humans and Shadow. Thoughts:
- I consider Shadow to be 50:50, or maybe slightly in our favor. I lost game 3 to him going T1 Inquisition, T2 Thoughtseize + Shadow, T3 Angler. Not much you can do about that.
- The Richochet Traps weren't necessary. Jace hasn't made that matchup any better for UW, and our maindeck + Molten Rain is already pretty favored.
- I hate losing to decks like 5C, because they're our bread and butter. As such, I think I'll turn the Richochets into Kozilek's Returns.
In short: I don't think we need to commit extra slots of Jace decks, especially if those slots come at the expense of other matchups.
and we for sure lose to ad naues. 2 times i've beat it it's because i got the t3 moon and they had no mana rocks, followed up with a koth
Plus it's obvious the mono R Challenger deck is a godsend to deflate the price of both Chandra and Hazoreth.
In response to TexasGoyf regarding Kozilek's Return : are you sure this is the best sideboard card againts human ? They can grow pretty fast out of the 2Dmg range, and some humans are already naturally 3 toughness (reflector). I don't see how instant speed makes it better than Anger of the Gods, could you explain ? :
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
I’ve found kozilek’s return to be best for infect and affinity. Against humans it’s okay, but honestly once they start growing rapidly the wipes we have access to usually don’t cut it. It’s here where we bring in roast and dismember.
I’ve traded up Anger of the Gods for Sweltering Suns. Anger does offer us a slightly better game against dredge and Abzan coco and yeah it synergizes with scourge a bit better, but there have been so many game ones where I drew a wipe and it was useless. Eldrazi Tron, Tron, u/w/x Control, Burn, Ad Naus, Storm, B/g/x midrange. The ability to cycle a dead card in game ones has been fantastic, and for the most part it still handles the majority of creature decks the way we want it to.
I’m currently using the list Trevor May topped with back in January, with the only changes being -2 AotG +2 Sweltering Suns. I’ve been crushing many other midrange and control decks. Infect and affinity aren’t too hard. Blood moon honestly just hoses some decks altogether. Ds is 50/50. Etron and tron can be a bit tough, but an early blood moon can sometimes allow us to race them. A Koth and Hez/stormy can kill quick. Molten rain is good stuff. Skreding a land is hilarious. Burn can be a *****, but dragons claw is real good.
Anyways, this is just my .02
Have a 1k today at MTGfirst in MD, so we will see how that goes. Wish me luck dudes!
The Chalice/Bridge deck your referring to is called "Free Win Red." They also frequently pack Blood Moon, and rituals, and rely on powering out a fast, highly-disruptive permanent. The deck can auto-win a lot (hence the name), but it is much less stable against decks that can remove the permanent.
As for anti-Humans tech, I agree that Return is a bit too weak. Anger or Suns is okay, but not ideal either. You can get some mileage with Ratchet Bomb on the play, though. Otherwise, you kill what they cast one-by-one until Stormbreath comes down and simply ends the game.
I still vacillate between Anger and Fallout, personally. The fact that Fallout damage players and punches through countermagic has often been relevant, but seems less important these days. Anger has the advantage of killing several decks on the spot (Elves, Dredge, etc.), which Suns or Return are less impressive against. Ultimately, I think the sweeper of choice remains a metagame call.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I think Sweltering Suns is the way to go for the maindeck sweeper for the obvious ability to cycle it when it is not needed. I also like it post-board versus storm where you might need to clean up tokens but may need to cycle it for a more relevant card. I think whether to go with Anger or Return for sideboard sweepers depends on the rest of your 75. If you are short on graveyard hate from things like Relic and Cage, you may want to dedicate these slots to Anger. If you are short on anti-Protection-from-Red cards like Eternal Scourge or Pyrite Spellbomb, you may want to dedicate the slots to Kozilek's Return.
I haven't personally tried Fallout but I can't think of decks that have a lot of small creatures as well as countermagic (except for Spell Queller, which doesn't counter.).
I find that Kozilek's return is still good versus Humans. Your other early interaction can often keep them from growing too big and really even if Return only hits one Human, I am happy to slow them down and reduce some of their synergy while I have time to draw into Stormbreath. Of course, 3 damage would be better here to get Mantis Rider, but Return is still a card I want in the matchup.
Witchbane's an interesting thought - maybe I'll give that a try!
Kozilek's Return is absolutely not the best card against 5C Humans, but it's OK against them and very good in some other matchups (Elves, Affinity, Infect, etc). Almost every Skred list runs 3 maindeck Anger, so Kozilek's Return is just added insurance against go-wide decks. You could also play Pyroclasm, Volcanic Fallout, Ratchet Bomb, or Sweltering Suns in the board; I personally value instant speed + getting around pro Red, but that's up to you. Alternatively, some extra spot removal like Roast or Pyrite Spellbomb would also be a fine use of sideboard slots.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
It seems that 22 lands is the consensus. In my own experience this deck has flooded out s few times, and going above 22 lands with 4 mana rocks in the deck seems excessive.
Spitebellows at best is 3 mana for 6 damage and at worst a six drop that doesn’t immedialty impact the board and whose effect may not even prove useful. I would personally cut it from the main for another Chandra, Torch of Defiance. She can hit a critter for 4 and still leave up a permenat for the opponent to contended with. She can burn the opponent, “draw” us into play, or ramp us.
I would really try to find room for the fourth maindeck blood moon. It’s never good to draw multiples, but it’s so good in so many match ups that I want to see it in the first few draws as often as I can. It’s just that powerful.
The scourges have been just OK for me too, but I’ve yet to test anything else in their place. I would try to find room for a third Nalaar couple. They’re so good at grinding and can have some reach with their ability.
Slitebellows->Chandra
Land->Bloodmoon
Commune with Lava-> Pkn
1 Sweltering Suns-> Ratchet Bomb
Rachet bomb has some reach still that out other removal doesn’t.
Thanks for the explanation
I also get the point of Kozilek's Return better. In my LGS I've yet to see a single infect, but there are some affinity decks playing the occasionnal Etched Champion. I don't know if it's enough to dedicate one board slot for this but I'll adjust to the meta.
Funnily enough, I also play a rogue Mono W Prison deck that (I think) is the worst ennemy of Skred Red x)
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
I've wondered about Scourge for a while too. I don't know if we should move away from it or not. On one hand, it can be insane against fair decks, which will be the majority of the meta for the next few weeks while everyone jams BBE and JTMS. On the other hand, when it's bad, it's a dumpster fire. It can be one of the least impactful cards in the deck. While the fair decks have plenty of ways to get rid of it, they can never answer it permanently. With the rise of Jund, maybe we go back to Reckoner? I think it's worth trying again.
I remember playing 1of this with tons of dragons and reckoners
Going back to Earthquake is interesting, but seems a bit slow usually. How often do we need more than X=3?
As for land count, 22 + 4 Stones seems to work for me. At one point, I played 23 + Jets instead, which was also pretty decent. It's a lot less good when Jet is rarely handy as creature removal.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
Scourge never had anything to do with MB relics. Skred has played MB relics almost since it's inception. It's just that creature just happened to have good synergy at the time. I personally think MB relics are still awesome and Eternal Scourge is borderline unplayable right now.
I'm not sure about Reckoner either. The format has switched heavily towards creatures with almost all decks looking to never lose to JTMS. With more creatures you would think Reckoner would be a slam dunk card. The only problem is all the creature decks are on red and Lightning Bolt is back in the format with business. Sure, it pings the player but nobody really cares. A 3cmc card is not worth just 3 dmg which is what Reckoner ends up doing most of the time. Skred plays so few creatures he's just a magnet for removal immediately. I feel like we would need more creatures than usual if you wanted to play him. Also he energizes with Volcanic Fallout.
2 Eternal Scourge
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Stormbreath Dragon
Planeswalkers
4 Koth of the Hammer
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
1 Sweltering Suns
1 Dismember
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Mind Stone
Blood Moons
3 Blood Moon
Lands
20 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Scrying Sheets
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Dismember
2 Molten Rain
3 Dragon's Claw
2 Shattering Spree
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Obliterate
1 Blood Moon
I originally started doing the 2/3 split with Eternal Scourge and Boros Reckoner because I liked them both and wanted to lower my curve. Since I never found a reason to change it, and had a pretty good win rate (I however have not been keeping very good track, so I have no percentages for you), I never had a reason to change it.
The higher creature count and the fact that my local meta is light on the creature decks makes it better to only have one sweeper main with the rest in the side. Along with lowering the count, having the mainboard sweeper be Sweltering Suns instead of Anger of the Gods means that you never have a dead sweeper in hand.
The Dismembers are to bolster the Eldrazi Tron matchup, of which there are multiple in meta. If I did not expect to be playing against Eldrazi 2 out of 3 weeks, It would probably only be one or two in the board instead of one main, one side.</p>
I literally just got the Obliterate and 4th Blood Moon for the sideboard, so I have not played with them yet and cannot justify them.
Overall, it feels closer to the midrange end of the spectrum than control.
Separate from my card choices, I saw a list that got 6th at a SCG IQ that had a one of Treasure Map mainboard. What do you guys think of it?
Scourge is still a card I don’t know what to do with. Honestly at this point it feels like I’m playing him just to fill two spots up. I know the argument is that reckoner sucks it to removal, but so does scourge, and there have been so many times on my following turn I rather cast something else than recast scourge, though if you’re top decking lands or happen to have the mana a reoccurring blocker/creature can be good. Idk.
I’ve been rocking a maindeck rachet bomb and it has also done wonders. It has used against nearly all decks and forces your opponent to play around it often.