Even in the case of auriok champion, kor firewalker (outside of burn) and master of waves. I find we can just ignore the creature and clear the rest of their board. From there we can outrace them pretty easily.
Processor Assault seems sweet but I worry that we can't turn it on reliably enough.
Thinking along similar lines, I've recently been testing out a 1 of Shrapnel Blast. I figure with 4x Relic, 4x Mind Stone, 3x P&K, it should be easy enough to turn on. Being able to deal 5 to face is a pretty huge bonus and has already come in handy.
Frank seems like... Not the best skred player. What really stood out to me was how aggressively he threw away his relics. Even when he had a scourge he'd want to recur.
I noticed a ton of other issues in play as well.
Also not a fan of the list, though the list is much better than the play.
A card I would like to try in the deck is Collective Defiance which can be a good mana sink and works well with Boros Reckoner (can potentially deal 7 damage by itself).
As a 1x-of I would go with Blasphemous Act as a wrath/finisher.
I was also thinking about the 3-drop slot in the deck which is mostly Eternal Scourge/Boros Reckoner.
What about Chandra's Phoenix as another option ? The haste+recursion seem decent and flying can be relevant.
Fallout is a perfectly reasonable choice, especially if you run reckoners.
Agreed, obliterate is cool, but not worth the effort.
As a HUGE fan of sarkhan, I think you should only run him once you already have 2-3 stormbreaths (franks list runs only 1... In the SB) AND 2-3 Chandra ToD's.
I don't like collective defiance at all. The only mode id consistently want is flame slash. And 3 mana flame slashes are bad. It's not even that flexible, lava spike mode isn't all that useful tbh. Wheel mode less so. I'd just run banefire in it's place.
Or even searing blaze if that's really what you're trying to do.
Phoenix is a worse scourge.
It's more difficult to infinitely recur.
It non-Bo's with our own relics.
It can't block pro-red.
The difference in p/t is largely irrelevant.
All for haste and flying? I love both abilities, but the phoenix lacks the stats needed to make those abilities threatening.
I actually discussed Chandra's Phoenix here: https://soundcloud.com/camden-paolucci/skred-red-hidden-gems Pardon the poor quality, I had to do it all without editing. It's also the first card I discuss, so you don't have listen to my horrible voice for too long.
My basic logic was if you need a recursive threat, it's going to get the job done. However, two important things to note are a) I believe this was recorded in October, so a lot has changed since then, including my familiarity with the deck and b) I myself was still not sold on Eternal Scourge, and a few were still testing it. Scourge is just the better card now, but I played Phoenix a few times and I was fine with it. If I did another one of these would you guys listen to it? I do really enjoy this kind of thing.
Searing Blaze isn't reliable here without fetches anyway (Draconic Roar might be decent with multiple Stormbreath + Thunderbreak in the deck)
and the "wheel mode" might have some fringe application like cycling your hand of lands and relics/m.stones or targeting an opposing combo deck to discard their combo cards.
Collective brutality is entirely on a different level.
Duress, disfigure, and drain 2 are all 1 mana effects.
This means your only overpaying by 1 mana when you cast brutality for 1 effect.
If you cast it for all three, your actually getting an incredibly mana efficient spell, at the cost of some card advantage.
This is a part of its strength. You can cast it at either a tempo cost OR a slight card cost.
Further, it's modes are actually flexible. Drain 2 gives both reach and life gain, where's lava spike only gives reach. Disfigure gives removal similar to flame slash, but duress gives you hand attack. There are far, faaaaar more realistic scenarios where brutality isn't just better than defiance, it's better than just having all it's constituent cards.
Let's compare this to defiance. Flame slash and lava spike are both 1 mana effects, so casting defiance for either mode means you're overpaying by twice as much mana. Wheel is reasonably priced, but it's not something we want, trust me I played with flamecaller long enough to tell that.
Even when combining all modes, all your doing is paying an appropriate price. And anything less is bad.
And this assumes they have an x/(<=4) and you have a hand you want to wheel.
So if this is the card you want, then just play draconic roar.
As a side note, I was so disappointed in draconic roar, imagine if the bonus was to do another 3 damage to a target creature instead of a player.
i'd rather play pithing needle.
name lightning storm vs ad nauseum
against tron, name karn, o-stone, w/e.
infect and control are already really good MU's
i'd rather play pithing needle.
name lightning storm vs ad nauseum
against tron, name karn, o-stone, w/e.
infect and control are already really good MU's
it is cute as hell tho
Pretty sure you're right. To be fair, I think it sets Ad Nauseum back a bit further, but in general you're right that Pithing Needle is just better.
i'd like to respectfully disagree with the underlined bit.
with the pith naming lightning storm their only three options to kill us become
A) remove the needle
B) laboratory maniac
C) conflagrate
with hope of ghirapur they have the following options
A) prevent hope from dealing combat damage
B) wait/survive one more turn and combo out anyway
B part 2) combo off on your upkeep after the turn you silence them, the combo is instant speed, thusyou've not actually slowed them down whatsoever.
C) combo off before hope can attack/before you decide to pop it
i just scoured the last 10 or so pages of the ad nauseum primer and here's what i found.
ad nauseum doesn't run conflagrate anymore, or at least, if anyone in that primer was running it (or even linking performing lists) i missed it
ad nauseum runs 2-3 ways to remove artifacts, and notably they all seem to be at the 2 CMC spot. (hurkyl's recall, echoing truth, wear // tear with the former two being the most common)
ad nauseum often runs similar numbers of fog effects
hurkyl's, e-truth, and co. all work against both hope and needle. however, ethereal haze, darkness, and holy dayonly work against hope.
already, you've given your opponent more options by running hope over needle.
hope is also a 1-turn silence. meaning you have to know exactly when to pop it or you lose, additionally, you need to be able to capitalize on that one turn (assuming they can't just kill you at upkeep, which they should) both of these points put additional pressure on you that needle doesn't. needle solely asks that you get it into play and protect it.
of course, needle doesn't stop maniac. but volcanic fallout does. and all the pact of negations in the world can't stop it.
in any case, the maniac is a moot point. maniac is their backup plan, it's what they resort to if lightning storm can't do the job. which hope doesn't adequately prevent as i mentioned above.
if you're running pithing needle in conjunction with a chalice on 2, they've got no way to kill you. unless they still run conflagrate, which seems to have fallen out of favor.
pithing needle > chalice on 2 > find a relic of progenitus (for when they discard conflagrate at EoT, if they run it, which they likely wont) & a volcanic fallout.
if you do all that, they cannot win. period. well, in the case of the vast majority of their lists anyway.
i know that's easier said than done (to say the very least), but it's at least a real line of play.
compare that to
play hope > connect with hope and pop it on just the right turn with the correct reads > hope they don't play lightning storm (???) > kill them from likely 10-15 life.
maybe mix in some chalice's for added security.
doesn't seem reasonable.
Haven't had much practice against Ad Nauseam... would it also be valid to name Lotus Bloom as a preventative measure and lock them out with Blood Moon?
Haven't had much practice against Ad Nauseam... would it also be valid to name Lotus Bloom as a preventative measure and lock them out with Blood Moon?
Sadly it can't name mana abilities, but Phyrexian Revoker can. I think the creature is a valid option since it can add a bit to the clock against AdNaus/Tron, played 2x in the board before.
However nowdays I find 1-of Needle more flexible since it can deal with manlands (notably Inkmoth), which the Revoker can't. Also some Tron players started using Bolt over Clasm, which is sided out way less making Revoker more vurnerable against them.
Very sorry, you'd think with all that energy I put into it I could've just scrolled back up a couple posts and refreshed myself on your actual position.
Whoops
Anyway, still prefer needle + fallout plan, I don't feel we have the pressure needed to kill them in the time gained by stopping bloom. Maybe if you're already running SSG and rabblemasters. Otherwise something more long term like needle is the stronger option.
I've been looking for an effecient way to improve our MUs against Tron and combo after scrubbing out of my last open. Day 1 was actually all combo and Tron.
Pithing Needle does nothing against Laboratory Maniac (which they always have) so the plan should be disrupting their mana by LD and killing their mana artifacts while trying to kill them before they can can recover imho.
Or just plop a scourge in front of them
Thinking along similar lines, I've recently been testing out a 1 of Shrapnel Blast. I figure with 4x Relic, 4x Mind Stone, 3x P&K, it should be easy enough to turn on. Being able to deal 5 to face is a pretty huge bonus and has already come in handy.
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/modern-monday-skred-red/
I noticed a ton of other issues in play as well.
Also not a fan of the list, though the list is much better than the play.
The list seems not bad, I would definetely not play Volcanic Fallout and Obliterate though.
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker might be better than the 3rd Stormbreath Dragon.
A card I would like to try in the deck is Collective Defiance which can be a good mana sink and works well with Boros Reckoner (can potentially deal 7 damage by itself).
As a 1x-of I would go with Blasphemous Act as a wrath/finisher.
I was also thinking about the 3-drop slot in the deck which is mostly Eternal Scourge/Boros Reckoner.
What about Chandra's Phoenix as another option ? The haste+recursion seem decent and flying can be relevant.
Agreed, obliterate is cool, but not worth the effort.
As a HUGE fan of sarkhan, I think you should only run him once you already have 2-3 stormbreaths (franks list runs only 1... In the SB) AND 2-3 Chandra ToD's.
I don't like collective defiance at all. The only mode id consistently want is flame slash. And 3 mana flame slashes are bad. It's not even that flexible, lava spike mode isn't all that useful tbh. Wheel mode less so. I'd just run banefire in it's place.
Or even searing blaze if that's really what you're trying to do.
Phoenix is a worse scourge.
It's more difficult to infinitely recur.
It non-Bo's with our own relics.
It can't block pro-red.
The difference in p/t is largely irrelevant.
All for haste and flying? I love both abilities, but the phoenix lacks the stats needed to make those abilities threatening.
My basic logic was if you need a recursive threat, it's going to get the job done. However, two important things to note are a) I believe this was recorded in October, so a lot has changed since then, including my familiarity with the deck and b) I myself was still not sold on Eternal Scourge, and a few were still testing it. Scourge is just the better card now, but I played Phoenix a few times and I was fine with it. If I did another one of these would you guys listen to it? I do really enjoy this kind of thing.
(like Collective Brutality which isn't great as a 2-mana (bad) Duress/Dead Weight/Brush with Death but having the options make it playable).
It reminds me of a more playable version of Incendiary Command and the deck could use a modal spell.
Searing Blaze isn't reliable here without fetches anyway (Draconic Roar might be decent with multiple Stormbreath + Thunderbreak in the deck)
and the "wheel mode" might have some fringe application like cycling your hand of lands and relics/m.stones or targeting an opposing combo deck to discard their combo cards.
19 snow-covered mountain
3 scrying sheets
enchantment
3 blood moon
creature
4 pia and kiran nalaar
1 stormbreath dragon
2 eternal scourge
planeswalker
4 koth of the hammer
2 chandra, torch of defiance
1 sarkhan, the dragonspeaker
4 skred
4 lightning bolt
1 magma jet
sorcery
4 anger of the gods
1 roast
enchantment
4 blood moon
artifact
4 relic of progenitus
4 mind stone
1 pyrite spellbomb
3 Dragon's Claw
3 Molten Rain
2 goblin rabblemaster
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Shattering Spree
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Sudden Shock
1 Vandalblast
I'm thinking of cutting a magma jet or the roast for batterskull... Any thoughts?
The list is for GP Vancouver this weekend.
Really though, I don't think you need Magma Jet I'd your running Mind Stone.
Also, I never liked Sarkan, another Stormbreath would be best as it avoids Path and can be played in multiples.
Duress, disfigure, and drain 2 are all 1 mana effects.
This means your only overpaying by 1 mana when you cast brutality for 1 effect.
If you cast it for all three, your actually getting an incredibly mana efficient spell, at the cost of some card advantage.
This is a part of its strength. You can cast it at either a tempo cost OR a slight card cost.
Further, it's modes are actually flexible. Drain 2 gives both reach and life gain, where's lava spike only gives reach. Disfigure gives removal similar to flame slash, but duress gives you hand attack. There are far, faaaaar more realistic scenarios where brutality isn't just better than defiance, it's better than just having all it's constituent cards.
Let's compare this to defiance. Flame slash and lava spike are both 1 mana effects, so casting defiance for either mode means you're overpaying by twice as much mana. Wheel is reasonably priced, but it's not something we want, trust me I played with flamecaller long enough to tell that.
Even when combining all modes, all your doing is paying an appropriate price. And anything less is bad.
And this assumes they have an x/(<=4) and you have a hand you want to wheel.
So if this is the card you want, then just play draconic roar.
As a side note, I was so disappointed in draconic roar, imagine if the bonus was to do another 3 damage to a target creature instead of a player.
name lightning storm vs ad nauseum
against tron, name karn, o-stone, w/e.
infect and control are already really good MU's
it is cute as hell tho
i'd like to respectfully disagree with the underlined bit.
with the pith naming lightning storm their only three options to kill us become
A) remove the needle
B) laboratory maniac
C) conflagrate
with hope of ghirapur they have the following options
A) prevent hope from dealing combat damage
B) wait/survive one more turn and combo out anyway
B part 2) combo off on your upkeep after the turn you silence them, the combo is instant speed, thus you've not actually slowed them down whatsoever.
C) combo off before hope can attack/before you decide to pop it
i just scoured the last 10 or so pages of the ad nauseum primer and here's what i found.
ad nauseum doesn't run conflagrate anymore, or at least, if anyone in that primer was running it (or even linking performing lists) i missed it
ad nauseum runs 2-3 ways to remove artifacts, and notably they all seem to be at the 2 CMC spot. (hurkyl's recall, echoing truth, wear // tear with the former two being the most common)
ad nauseum often runs similar numbers of fog effects
hurkyl's, e-truth, and co. all work against both hope and needle. however, ethereal haze, darkness, and holy day only work against hope.
already, you've given your opponent more options by running hope over needle.
hope is also a 1-turn silence. meaning you have to know exactly when to pop it or you lose, additionally, you need to be able to capitalize on that one turn (assuming they can't just kill you at upkeep, which they should) both of these points put additional pressure on you that needle doesn't. needle solely asks that you get it into play and protect it.
of course, needle doesn't stop maniac. but volcanic fallout does. and all the pact of negations in the world can't stop it.
in any case, the maniac is a moot point. maniac is their backup plan, it's what they resort to if lightning storm can't do the job. which hope doesn't adequately prevent as i mentioned above.
if you're running pithing needle in conjunction with a chalice on 2, they've got no way to kill you. unless they still run conflagrate, which seems to have fallen out of favor.
pithing needle > chalice on 2 > find a relic of progenitus (for when they discard conflagrate at EoT, if they run it, which they likely wont) & a volcanic fallout.
if you do all that, they cannot win. period. well, in the case of the vast majority of their lists anyway.
i know that's easier said than done (to say the very least), but it's at least a real line of play.
compare that to
play hope > connect with hope and pop it on just the right turn with the correct reads > hope they don't play lightning storm (???) > kill them from likely 10-15 life.
maybe mix in some chalice's for added security.
doesn't seem reasonable.
However nowdays I find 1-of Needle more flexible since it can deal with manlands (notably Inkmoth), which the Revoker can't. Also some Tron players started using Bolt over Clasm, which is sided out way less making Revoker more vurnerable against them.
Legacy: Death'n'Taxes
Whoops
Anyway, still prefer needle + fallout plan, I don't feel we have the pressure needed to kill them in the time gained by stopping bloom. Maybe if you're already running SSG and rabblemasters. Otherwise something more long term like needle is the stronger option.
I've been looking for an effecient way to improve our MUs against Tron and combo after scrubbing out of my last open. Day 1 was actually all combo and Tron.