Stymied Hopes isn't really seeing play and that's the closes comparison I can think of. Mana TIthe is also much more mana efficient at only W and doesn't see much play and that card is literally Force Spike in Modern. I'd say Remand is going to be in most cases the better cantrip/counter at the 2 mana slot since it hits anything. If only Arcane Denial was playable....
Do you have a more specific grievance? I am all for incorporating sections written by members into the primer. If there is specific content that you desire then let me know.
Otherwise keep the conversation focused and polite.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
There is not anything pathetic about this primer. If you buy all of the suggested cards like I did and just make decks out of those cards alone, you'll have a competitive deck; then, if you want you could make minor variations with adding some cards not suggested in the primer and it would still be competitive to some degree, depending upon what the other cards do in your deck.
Although I think that the only valid criticism of the primer is that maybe a typical Cruel Control deck should have minimum 2 to 3 Kolaghan's Command instead of the stated 3 minimum with the emphasis that one of the 3 should be cut at times for something like Fatal Push, but otherwise everything is there that should be there, I think.
I believe mjg94 wasn't referring to the deck we all play, but instead Thebes people who populate the primer. While I disagree with him, we do tend to get off track quite a lot
Well, joke or not ... competitive cruel control is mostly a red and blue mechanic based thing due to people playing grixis with Lightning Bolt and Cryptic Command over the years; meanwhile, wizards of the coast acts like cruel control is mostly a black mana mechanic.
In comparison, the card Wit's End with the typo is a blue and black mechanic with the whole hand discard thing going on. Considering that competitive cruel control would mostly be dealing with other aggro-control decks, a black blue mana plan isn't going to work unless you go full out mill and that's not the style of cruel control being promoted here.
More like this primer is the anti-controlaggro style of cruel control.
A bad tasted joke was made and I dealt with it. Thats all that matters. Please go back to talking about cruel control. I really dont want to hand out cards for spam.
Ok, so getting back on track. I have the option to pick up some Ancestral Visions, but I don't know if it would be advantageous for my budget at the moment. I'm feeling like Serum Visions has the edge, but I'm thinking about a split. I know you really want 4 Ancestral Visions because you need it turn 1, but I'm still considering it. What do you guys think?
Even if you did buy Ancestral Vision, you would still have to side it out sometimes maybe for the same reasons you would side out Serum Vision and it doesn't do anything until something 4 upkeeps later. Also, since there is nothing between those turns you would probably be more restricted to having to play counter-spells to protect yourself.
It just depends what you want to do with your deck.
3/3 split of Ancestral and Serum is the best bet. You're still likely to draw Ancestral on t1 and you're less likely to draw into it late game when you need other spells or threats. It's also better to just get the set out of the way now so you won't need it later on when they're even more expensive.
I highly doubt it will ever be reprinted so if you are able to get them please do.
I've found the 3/3 split to be the best for my deck.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I'm glad to announce that we now have a Discord server up and running specifically for our deck type. It's not meant to replace the thread we have here at all, but it's got different channels for different aspects of the deck like matchup advice, card and build tests, tournament results, as well as some general purpose and off topic chats as well as a text channel and voice channels specifically meant for setting up online games for practice with each other. You can reach the server by following this link, just be sure to read the rules and choose a role once you're done doing so. It's late now, so I can't choose any mods right now, but we'll hopefully get that settled over the next day or so along with working out whatever kinks might be left over with the channels.
If anyone has trouble with the link or with the server itself, leave me a message and I'll be sure to respond as soon as I check in here tomorrow.
Gonna be testing censor too. The counter effect is definitely a bit weak, but the cycling attached to it might be enough to redeem it. I'm also personally going to test Pull from Tomorrow as like a Sphinx's Revelation impression for our deck and see what comes of it.
First I went up against Abzan; totally cleaned house with casting Jace, Architect of Thought against 1/1 tokens, copying and killing Siege Rhino with Evil Twin and I stalled with Cryptic Command until I could get a Pithing Needle or Dreadbore for Liliana of the Veil. The opponent mainboarded discard already and did not have any direct answers for me in his sideboard, so I rinsed and repeated second round and won.
Second I went up against an artifact deck. I lost first game because I was slightly mana screwed putting me behind a turn. I didn't have Ancestral Vision to cast first turn to maybe save me later and instead drew into Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver when I needed Damnation most and got crushed to death by manlands, Signal Pest, and a Cranial Plating attached to an Etched Champion. After losing first game I sided in all of my artifact hate, namely Vandalblast, Anger of the Gods, Izzet Staticaster and won the last two games easily even though he sideboarded in Relic of Progenitus, hitting me with it at least once along with Stain the Mind to try to disable me. Jace, Architect of Thought saved the game for me by disabling the manlands during second game. I won the next game by throwing a Pithing Needle straight at Cranial Plating before it had a chance to hit the board. After that I boardwiped to death his creatures with Vandalblast, Anger of the Gods, Izzet Staticaster and Damnation until he was topdecking only and by that time I had two Ancestral Vision pop out of suspend which won me the game with pure card advantage. I think I may have won theses games easily only because he didn't understand my deck enough versus what I sided into to, to in turn fully disable me with the discards he sided into; otherwise, it may have been closer game.
The third game was Jeskai Control using Restoration Angel as a bouncer for extra effects. This game went on forever, as he wouldn't ever seem to play anything except to wait to counterspell me. All I did to beat him first game after going "WTF?" for a few turns was wait until I had enough mana to do anything. That was fairly easy, since my opponent was mostly doing nothing except looking at his hand and passing the turn. Finally he tried to hit me with a Lightning Bolt and then Snapcastered it back which I let him do, except that I threw a lightning bolt at him which he casted remand against and then responded again by trying to put down a Restoration Angel to rebounce his Snapcaster Mage out to cast something out of his graveyard. I hit him with the counter spell option on my Cryptic Command and drew a card. He didn't seem to have any further answers the first game and I hit him with a Cruel Ultimatum which began to win the game for me and I did. Second game I sided in Collective Brutality, Dispel, Inquisition of Kozilek, Surgical Extraction and To the Slaughter. He appeared to have sided in at-least a Batterskull and an Aven mindcensor, but again he basically did the same thing with trying to wait and counter-spell me the whole time. I still won the second game and the round.
Last round was someone I played against before and he always plays these weird custom brew zoo decks with Dungrove Elder, red haste creatures and land destruction combos. He usually beat me first game by blowing up lands starting 2nd turn and then basically just sits there pinging you to death with fast creatures while you are mana screwed . If I had known that he would have been there I may have side-boarded something like Orb of Dreams to at least stop him from running over me each time his turn comes around. I lost this whole round and it has not been the first time.
3 out of 4 isn't bad at all and I am totally satisfied with my decks performance now.
What did you find yourself taking out? Looking at your second and third MUs you had to make a fair bit of space, was there any card you just found to be constantly under-performing?
The only cards that which I think underperform sometimes are Serum Visions and Kolaghan's Command only against fast and swarming creature decks or against Planeswalker decks. I usually take those out either or all of those for either/or Vandalblast,Dispel,To the Slaughter depending.
The last game was just frustrating and ended fast. There was not much I could do no matter what I played. Again, the only answer I have for his deck that would work is maybe side-boarding Orb of Dreams; that is because he tends to mainboard Hellrider and Thundermaw Hellkite which basically is instant win for him unless you have an immediate answer in removal or can stop them from having haste.
Otherwise keep the conversation focused and polite.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
UUBBBRR Cruel Control
BRG BRgBurn
BR URStorm
-Commander-
B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator
U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired]
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
Although I think that the only valid criticism of the primer is that maybe a typical Cruel Control deck should have minimum 2 to 3 Kolaghan's Command instead of the stated 3 minimum with the emphasis that one of the 3 should be cut at times for something like Fatal Push, but otherwise everything is there that should be there, I think.
Food for thought.
In comparison, the card Wit's End with the typo is a blue and black mechanic with the whole hand discard thing going on. Considering that competitive cruel control would mostly be dealing with other aggro-control decks, a black blue mana plan isn't going to work unless you go full out mill and that's not the style of cruel control being promoted here.
More like this primer is the anti-controlaggro style of cruel control.
It just depends what you want to do with your deck.
UUBBBRR Cruel Control
BRG BRgBurn
BR URStorm
-Commander-
B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator
U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired]
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
I've found the 3/3 split to be the best for my deck.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Okay thank you all. The advice is much appreciated.
If anyone has trouble with the link or with the server itself, leave me a message and I'll be sure to respond as soon as I check in here tomorrow.
UUBBBRR Cruel Control
BRG BRgBurn
BR URStorm
-Commander-
B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator
U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired]
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
Edit: Ninja'd by Grimble
UUBBBRR Cruel Control
BRG BRgBurn
BR URStorm
-Commander-
B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator
U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired]
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
1x Reflecting Pool
4x Smoldering Marsh
1x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
4x Sunken Hollow
1x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Artifact (3)
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Pithing Needle
Instant (12)
3x Cryptic Command
1x Fatal Push
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
3x Ancestral Vision
2x Cruel Ultimatum
2x Damnation
2x Dreadbore
3x Serum Visions
Creature (5)
1x Evil Twin
1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalker (4)
1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Collective Brutality
2x Dispel
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Kiora's Dismissal
1x Surgical Extraction
2x To the Slaughter
2x Vandalblast
Second I went up against an artifact deck. I lost first game because I was slightly mana screwed putting me behind a turn. I didn't have Ancestral Vision to cast first turn to maybe save me later and instead drew into Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver when I needed Damnation most and got crushed to death by manlands, Signal Pest, and a Cranial Plating attached to an Etched Champion. After losing first game I sided in all of my artifact hate, namely Vandalblast, Anger of the Gods, Izzet Staticaster and won the last two games easily even though he sideboarded in Relic of Progenitus, hitting me with it at least once along with Stain the Mind to try to disable me. Jace, Architect of Thought saved the game for me by disabling the manlands during second game. I won the next game by throwing a Pithing Needle straight at Cranial Plating before it had a chance to hit the board. After that I boardwiped to death his creatures with Vandalblast, Anger of the Gods, Izzet Staticaster and Damnation until he was topdecking only and by that time I had two Ancestral Vision pop out of suspend which won me the game with pure card advantage. I think I may have won theses games easily only because he didn't understand my deck enough versus what I sided into to, to in turn fully disable me with the discards he sided into; otherwise, it may have been closer game.
The third game was Jeskai Control using Restoration Angel as a bouncer for extra effects. This game went on forever, as he wouldn't ever seem to play anything except to wait to counterspell me. All I did to beat him first game after going "WTF?" for a few turns was wait until I had enough mana to do anything. That was fairly easy, since my opponent was mostly doing nothing except looking at his hand and passing the turn. Finally he tried to hit me with a Lightning Bolt and then Snapcastered it back which I let him do, except that I threw a lightning bolt at him which he casted remand against and then responded again by trying to put down a Restoration Angel to rebounce his Snapcaster Mage out to cast something out of his graveyard. I hit him with the counter spell option on my Cryptic Command and drew a card. He didn't seem to have any further answers the first game and I hit him with a Cruel Ultimatum which began to win the game for me and I did. Second game I sided in Collective Brutality, Dispel, Inquisition of Kozilek, Surgical Extraction and To the Slaughter. He appeared to have sided in at-least a Batterskull and an Aven mindcensor, but again he basically did the same thing with trying to wait and counter-spell me the whole time. I still won the second game and the round.
Last round was someone I played against before and he always plays these weird custom brew zoo decks with Dungrove Elder, red haste creatures and land destruction combos. He usually beat me first game by blowing up lands starting 2nd turn and then basically just sits there pinging you to death with fast creatures while you are mana screwed . If I had known that he would have been there I may have side-boarded something like Orb of Dreams to at least stop him from running over me each time his turn comes around. I lost this whole round and it has not been the first time.
3 out of 4 isn't bad at all and I am totally satisfied with my decks performance now.
The last game was just frustrating and ended fast. There was not much I could do no matter what I played. Again, the only answer I have for his deck that would work is maybe side-boarding Orb of Dreams; that is because he tends to mainboard Hellrider and Thundermaw Hellkite which basically is instant win for him unless you have an immediate answer in removal or can stop them from having haste.