A slight addition to this point, yes you will sometimes lose after playing our trump card, and that sucks. But then you have to ask yourself what card would have saved you in that situation.
The real difference between us and Delver/Burkhart style Grixis is that we are even more reactive. We plan to sit back and not even try to win until we've locked things down. In those kinds of situations Cruel can make the difference between a tentative grasp on the game and gaining full control.
Yes it is very fun. No complaints I'm that deparment. I was just thinking if it was just a fun deck why is it under the competitive section? Now the response of not winning until things are locked in approach that's what I was doing wrong I think. I need to take a step back and control the game until drop 7 or 8 and then start dropping bombs not count on the bomb to save my skin
I'm actually looking into testing Thing in the Ice sometime. Seems like a good threat after people board out removal.
This deck is in developing competitive as it does not really belong in the others.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
TBH I think the deck is much more competitive than you are giving it credit for. This is the control deck that actually plays like a, you know, CONTROL DECK instead of just being a tempo deck with better removal. With the ban of G Probe, this deck actually gets a lot better as the format slows down. You can kill a t1 birds, a t2 goyf, a turn 3 lili, and a turn 4 rhino with slot of consistiencey, and a lot of control decks focus so much on the early game tempo that they miss out on this critical mass of removal and counters. As long as Afro is on the decline, this deck is great.
Nice looking list mate. Don't feel too bad at laughter; just plot your revenge as lord Bolas would demand
Anyone else getting hyped for Amonkhet? It seems wizards finally realized that printing busted creatures with no answers is bad. I hope we get some nice spells.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Welcome back! I've also got an FNM report (decklist to follow when not on my phone):
Round 1: Affinity; Favourable Matchup; 0-2
This was a bit of a feel bad for me. I thought I recognised my opponent as a guy I've occasionally seen playing Esper control, and so kept a game 1 hand with a bunch of counters but almost no removal. He vomited his hand onto the table and beat me quickly. Game 2 I overvalued my life total early and thus used my mana for removal rather than holding up counters which wasn't great, I ended up dying to 4 lands in a row on top of my deck.
Round 2: Bant Spirits; Unfavourable Matchup; 0-2
I hadn't played this matchup before but I think its pretty bad for us. Cavern of Souls plus disruptive flash threats is pretty good against us. I didn't draw any sweepers, or that much removal, but I still don't see this being good for us.
Round 3: Goblins; Close Matchup, 2-0
I've been beaten down incredibly quickly by goblins before, but if you have removal and sweepers (which I actually drew this round!) then you have a reasonable chance of getting back into a game.
Round 4: BW Tokens; Unfavourable Matchup; 2-0
This is a matchup I had been hoping to dodge, but there are too many players in the meta. Both games were close and apparently my opponent made some misplays, but I'm also much happier with my play than I have been.
B-b-b-bonus rounds: Goryo's Expertise and Eternal Command.
These were casual games I played before we got started on FNM proper. Goryo's Expertise feels like a much better matchup that they're running more sorceries, but Boseju (I'll look it up when not on my phone) was pretty brutal, as was Defense Grid out of the board. Eternal Command feels close. I think they've got the threats to be problematic, but we do have the answers, I'd need to play more to get a better idea. All in all, not too unhappy with my performance (although I do feel a bit bummed by Affinity)
I updated the primer a bit. Expect regular updates every set release.
Also each set release I will foster a discussion on potential cards we can play from those sets.
To start off I have been playing 2-3 Fatal Push and I love it. What does everyone else think?
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I kind of like push as a two-of rather than a threefer, it's nice but it doesn't feel as safe to me as Terminate does in large numbers. I've been running a 3/2 Terminate/Push split since AER came out and it's been working well.
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-Modern- UUBBBRR Cruel Control BRG BRgBurn BR URStorm
-Commander- B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired] GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
I'm on a 3/2 split right now as well. There are many eldrazi decks in my meta so Terminate is a must.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I am also on a 3/2 split favoring terminate. I've been loving it. There are less aggressive decks in my meta, so I wouldn't really consider going to 3 push but 2 is just fine.
As a side note, I've added a very light Mystical Teachings package, the Izzet Staticaster which came in over second Torrential Gearhulk, and Jace's Ingenuity over third Think Twice, as well as the ability to tutor for any of my other instants. I'm not sure whether this will stay, and if so then the Pushes could come in here?
I also think I'm going to drop a Creeping Tar Pit to go back to Reflecting Pool, I've been finding the tapped lands hurting me more than I'd like with only 24 lands.
I would cut one Anger and a Countersquall for two pushes. You could also drop Tar Pit for Drowned Catacomb.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I can see the argument for that, I don't like the idea of cutting Counter squall but it is almost certainly correct to do so. Anger of the Gods I'm less sold on, if you look back at my FNM I'm played against Affinity, Spirits, Goblins and Tokens, all matchups where Anger is excellent. I'm also expecting Abzan Company decks to continue to gain popularity, and maindeck Anger is great there as well. I'm wondering about going back to two Kolaghan's Command instead. I really like the card, and it is obviously great with Snapcaster Mage but I'm not sure it has been so good as to warrent all three.
Drowned Catacomb verses Reflecting Pool is a tough call. Whilst obviously neither is as good as Creeping Tar Pit in the late game, Pool is better than. Catacomb from the mid game onwards. That said, Catacomb is probably the better card in most of my openers, which is when I've been finding Tar Pit problematic.
I see your point on Anger. Reflecting Pool will lose you some games if it produces the wrong type of mana early.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
In an unrelated note I've been collecting together results from my XMage matches and paper tournaments. Whilst I don't feel like my data is good enough to talk about any given matchup in depth I did just want to share some trends that are emerging by macro-archetype. I would also like to add that my list hasn't been static in this time, so this data is only to give a very general overview. The following are match win percentages:
Aggro: 44%
Combo: 67%
Control: 67%
Midrange: 56%
The problem I have here is that over half my matches have been against decks that I've lumped into aggro, and as such I'm losing ground. This analysis has convinced me (even more than before) that what I really need is to get some Fatal Pushes in the deck, and suggests Bolas might be right that shaving counter magic is the way forward. The other thing I'm considering is returning to a maindeck Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. I'm not yet sure how I would adjust my deck, but having a way to gain life would undoubtedly help these struggling MUs.
The meta is trending towards hyper aggro and eldrazi decks. Thus we need cards like Fatal Push, but it is important to keep your negates and dispels in the board to deal with the combo decks that can blank aggro and eldrazi decks.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Going a bit more removal heavy is definitely a good call right now. Until control and combo are a major threat again, we won't need as much counter magic in the main. I'm looking to pick up another Kolaghan's at some point down the road myself, might even bump my pushes up to three if burn picks back up in my meta.
Also Snap reprint, but at mythic. The circle worked, but at what cost?
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-Modern- UUBBBRR Cruel Control BRG BRgBurn BR URStorm
-Commander- B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired] GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
Hey so I've been wanting to play cruel control for a while. I'm a long time esper player and I love it, with MM17 coming out tarns are getting cheaper so I figure I'll start working on a list.
I haven't read through the thread very much yet so I don't know what most people are running but here's my current thought into grixis. The sideboard is trash i didn't know what to put in yet so i just filled it up with stuff. Let me know what you think. I expect to see some tron, affinity, bant eldrazi, esper and grixis control and merfolk, sideboard advice is welcome!
The real difference between us and Delver/Burkhart style Grixis is that we are even more reactive. We plan to sit back and not even try to win until we've locked things down. In those kinds of situations Cruel can make the difference between a tentative grasp on the game and gaining full control.
Plus it feels cool as hell
2 Torrential Gearhulk
//Creature (4)
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Snapcaster Mage
//Instant (19)
1 Consume the Meek
4 Cryptic Command
1 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Logic Knot
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
3 Terminate
//Planeswalker (1)
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
//Sorcery (9)
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Damnation
3 Serum Visions
1 Yahenni's Expertise
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Mountain
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Seems to be doing good things for me in testing and at my last FNM (got 1st place with it).
Looking forward to Amonkhet for some Bolas goodness.
I really want to test Thing in the Ice. How's it worked for others?
This deck is in developing competitive as it does not really belong in the others.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/770827-primer-legacy-pili-pala
Anyone else getting hyped for Amonkhet? It seems wizards finally realized that printing busted creatures with no answers is bad. I hope we get some nice spells.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Round 1: Affinity; Favourable Matchup; 0-2
This was a bit of a feel bad for me. I thought I recognised my opponent as a guy I've occasionally seen playing Esper control, and so kept a game 1 hand with a bunch of counters but almost no removal. He vomited his hand onto the table and beat me quickly. Game 2 I overvalued my life total early and thus used my mana for removal rather than holding up counters which wasn't great, I ended up dying to 4 lands in a row on top of my deck.
Round 2: Bant Spirits; Unfavourable Matchup; 0-2
I hadn't played this matchup before but I think its pretty bad for us. Cavern of Souls plus disruptive flash threats is pretty good against us. I didn't draw any sweepers, or that much removal, but I still don't see this being good for us.
Round 3: Goblins; Close Matchup, 2-0
I've been beaten down incredibly quickly by goblins before, but if you have removal and sweepers (which I actually drew this round!) then you have a reasonable chance of getting back into a game.
Round 4: BW Tokens; Unfavourable Matchup; 2-0
This is a matchup I had been hoping to dodge, but there are too many players in the meta. Both games were close and apparently my opponent made some misplays, but I'm also much happier with my play than I have been.
B-b-b-bonus rounds: Goryo's Expertise and Eternal Command.
These were casual games I played before we got started on FNM proper. Goryo's Expertise feels like a much better matchup that they're running more sorceries, but Boseju (I'll look it up when not on my phone) was pretty brutal, as was Defense Grid out of the board. Eternal Command feels close. I think they've got the threats to be problematic, but we do have the answers, I'd need to play more to get a better idea. All in all, not too unhappy with my performance (although I do feel a bit bummed by Affinity)
Also each set release I will foster a discussion on potential cards we can play from those sets.
To start off I have been playing 2-3 Fatal Push and I love it. What does everyone else think?
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
UUBBBRR Cruel Control
BRG BRgBurn
BR URStorm
-Commander-
B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator
U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired]
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Torrential Gearhulk
Sorceries
3 Serum Visions
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Languish
2 Cruel Ultimatum
Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
3 Countersquall
3 Terminate
2 Think Twice
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Cryptic Command
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Jace's Ingenuity
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Wandering Fumarole
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Slaughter Games
1 Keranos, God of Storms
As a side note, I've added a very light Mystical Teachings package, the Izzet Staticaster which came in over second Torrential Gearhulk, and Jace's Ingenuity over third Think Twice, as well as the ability to tutor for any of my other instants. I'm not sure whether this will stay, and if so then the Pushes could come in here?
I also think I'm going to drop a Creeping Tar Pit to go back to Reflecting Pool, I've been finding the tapped lands hurting me more than I'd like with only 24 lands.
Any other comments/thoughts very welcome.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Drowned Catacomb verses Reflecting Pool is a tough call. Whilst obviously neither is as good as Creeping Tar Pit in the late game, Pool is better than. Catacomb from the mid game onwards. That said, Catacomb is probably the better card in most of my openers, which is when I've been finding Tar Pit problematic.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
I'VE GOT THE SUMMONING CIRCLE READY FOR OUR FRIEND, SNAPCASTER MAGE.
UUBBBRR Cruel Control
BRG BRgBurn
BR URStorm
-Commander-
B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator
U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired]
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
In an unrelated note I've been collecting together results from my XMage matches and paper tournaments. Whilst I don't feel like my data is good enough to talk about any given matchup in depth I did just want to share some trends that are emerging by macro-archetype. I would also like to add that my list hasn't been static in this time, so this data is only to give a very general overview. The following are match win percentages:
Aggro: 44%
Combo: 67%
Control: 67%
Midrange: 56%
The problem I have here is that over half my matches have been against decks that I've lumped into aggro, and as such I'm losing ground. This analysis has convinced me (even more than before) that what I really need is to get some Fatal Pushes in the deck, and suggests Bolas might be right that shaving counter magic is the way forward. The other thing I'm considering is returning to a maindeck Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. I'm not yet sure how I would adjust my deck, but having a way to gain life would undoubtedly help these struggling MUs.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Also Snap reprint, but at mythic. The circle worked, but at what cost?
UUBBBRR Cruel Control
BRG BRgBurn
BR URStorm
-Commander-
B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator
U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired]
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
I haven't read through the thread very much yet so I don't know what most people are running but here's my current thought into grixis. The sideboard is trash i didn't know what to put in yet so i just filled it up with stuff. Let me know what you think. I expect to see some tron, affinity, bant eldrazi, esper and grixis control and merfolk, sideboard advice is welcome!
3x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Drowned Catacomb
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
3x Sulfur Falls
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
2x Countersquall
4x Cryptic Command
3x Fatal Push
3x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Logic Knot
3x Terminate
4x Think Twice
Creature (6)
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (2)
2x Cruel Ultimatum
1x Batterskull
2x Collective Brutality
2x Dispel
1x Dreadbore
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Extirpate
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Spell Snare
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir