I just made this list putting in "8-rack" meta cards to make the deck more "anti-meta" synergistic with the entirely non-synergetic Cryptic Command and other cards that may just be good by themselves. Hopefully that would correct the issue of "Cruel Control" itself being majorly black mana based and requiring something that is black mana to complement it, where as Snapcaster Mage and Cryptic Command do not so much even though they are good cards in themselves.
Here it is; this is only theory right now and has not been tested (I did not make a sideboard):
I am going to be getting new cards to experiment with and I am redesigning my deck again. I can probably record some footage of me playing against an an actual human opponent though X-Mage or the AI on Forge (which might play like an incompetent opponent) to rule out that people may be playing the deck lists I create wrong and then blaming the deck afterwards. For example, people wondering why I have Squee, Goblin Nabob without first realizing that I have him in there specifically with Kolaghan's Command to annul her (Liliana of the Veil) discard and kill her. If someone doesn't realize that you can do that with those two cards together they may not attempt even when they have those cards in hand.
Eeehhh.... People (me included) DO realize how you want to use Squee to combat Liliana. We just say that it is an ineffective way to do it. I will try to explain, although I have a feeling that you are not gonna consider my arguments against the card, despite the fact that they are pretty obvious.
Decks with Liliana play 4 copies of the PW. You are playing 1 copy of Squee in a 67 (!) card deck. The probability of having a T3 Squee on their T3 Liliana is not in your favor. More likely than not you will NOT have the card.
Now, before you say that you are gonna get him with Gifts, that already gives them at least 2 activation with Lili if you are on the draw, meaning you are already 2 cards down, and then you spend 1 card to fetch an effect that has already hurt you too much. Up to that point they don't care what you discard anymore since you will need 2+ cards to kill lili and Squee doesn't kill her. If you had an instant speed tutor to react to their lili by getting squee in your hand I would say ok, maybe, but you don't.
Even when you do actually have Squee in you hand, the will +1 the lili, you discard it getting it to 4 loyalty. You will still need 2 cards to kill it, meaning a bolt and a K. Command, which you will use to discard one of their cards. Sure, that is a half decent 2 for 2 trade. Next turn you will be getting back Squee which still is a 1/1 for 3 mana, practically a dead card in your hand which does nothing to advance your game plan.
Additionally, even if they are, for whatever reason, so afraid of Squee, which is unlikely, GBx decks (the ones with lili) play scavenging ooze, so they basically get a free counter and a life before you can do anything about it (because of how priority works).
Now let's say you do draw Squee in your opening hand but they don't play lili. You practically have a dead card and start the game with 6 cards. If you are playing against an opponent with no lili then you basically play a 66 card deck with 1 extremely dead draw.
So all in all, Squee is either a liability or completely irrelevant and at best can blank 1 activation from lili which will translate into getting back a dead card (so still not that awesome). Again, we (I, if not everyone else) DO realize and understand your argument and we just try to explain why said argument is bad. Please, try to see it.
The only way I can have a better argument is to literally suggest running Squee, Goblin Nabob with Liliana of the Veil in the same deck. The reason being that the same energy that breaks up an opponents usage of Liliana of the Veil has the same synastry with helping you overcome the discard effect that she has on you. Both players have to discard a card. You can just keep discarding him and you won't lose any cards.
Dlanze...the only reason 8-rack works is because it runs all 8 copies of The Rack and Shrieking Affliction along with the rest of the spells either being discard spells, Lilis, alt win cons or removal, and a playset of Ensnaring Bridge. You can't just ram two racks, a lone Shrieking Affliction, and Keranos in and expect it to work, you have so few cards that the odds of getting all of the parts you need AND surviving to casting them are low. Like people used to be like "jam the Twin combo in any URx deck", but that actually kind of worked for the most part because those 12 cards could win you the game with or without the rest of your deck. This is like taking two or three different deck types and trying to slam them together, maybe some of the cards have "synastry", whatever that is, but you're trading in and crippling your ability to follow up after Cruel for some synergy between certain cards you run as dualies or singletons and it doesn't really make any sense how adding in like 1/6th of the 8rack build would make your deck more consistent.
You also still haven't answered if you've gotten around to playing your build against actual people at an FNM, I'd really like to know what paper magic tournaments are doing for your build since the rest of us are using these decks in paper. Please do respond to this instead of picking one thing to respond to.
I am going to be getting new cards to experiment with and I am redesigning my deck again. I can probably record some footage of me playing against an an actual human opponent though X-Mage or the AI on Forge (which might play like an incompetent opponent) to rule out that people may be playing the deck lists I create wrong and then blaming the deck afterwards. For example, people wondering why I have Squee, Goblin Nabob without first realizing that I have him in there specifically with Kolaghan's Command to annul her (Liliana of the Veil) discard and kill her. If someone doesn't realize that you can do that with those two cards together they may not attempt even when they have those cards in hand.
Eeehhh.... People (me included) DO realize how you want to use Squee to combat Liliana. We just say that it is an ineffective way to do it. I will try to explain, although I have a feeling that you are not gonna consider my arguments against the card, despite the fact that they are pretty obvious.
Decks with Liliana play 4 copies of the PW. You are playing 1 copy of Squee in a 67 (!) card deck. The probability of having a T3 Squee on their T3 Liliana is not in your favor. More likely than not you will NOT have the card.
Now, before you say that you are gonna get him with Gifts, that already gives them at least 2 activation with Lili if you are on the draw, meaning you are already 2 cards down, and then you spend 1 card to fetch an effect that has already hurt you too much. Up to that point they don't care what you discard anymore since you will need 2+ cards to kill lili and Squee doesn't kill her. If you had an instant speed tutor to react to their lili by getting squee in your hand I would say ok, maybe, but you don't.
Even when you do actually have Squee in you hand, the will +1 the lili, you discard it getting it to 4 loyalty. You will still need 2 cards to kill it, meaning a bolt and a K. Command, which you will use to discard one of their cards. Sure, that is a half decent 2 for 2 trade. Next turn you will be getting back Squee which still is a 1/1 for 3 mana, practically a dead card in your hand which does nothing to advance your game plan.
Additionally, even if they are, for whatever reason, so afraid of Squee, which is unlikely, GBx decks (the ones with lili) play scavenging ooze, so they basically get a free counter and a life before you can do anything about it (because of how priority works).
Now let's say you do draw Squee in your opening hand but they don't play lili. You practically have a dead card and start the game with 6 cards. If you are playing against an opponent with no lili then you basically play a 66 card deck with 1 extremely dead draw.
So all in all, Squee is either a liability or completely irrelevant and at best can blank 1 activation from lili which will translate into getting back a dead card (so still not that awesome). Again, we (I, if not everyone else) DO realize and understand your argument and we just try to explain why said argument is bad. Please, try to see it.
The only way I can have a better argument is to literally suggest running Squee, Goblin Nabob with Liliana of the Veil in the same deck. The reason being that the same energy that breaks up an opponents usage of Liliana of the Veil has the same synastry with helping you overcome the discard effect that she has on you. Both players have to discard a card. You can just keep discarding him and you won't lose any cards.
See, this is the problem, you give no arguments. People try to explain you things and you just don't care. You just say the same thing over and over with no real arguments. That is impolite and please, show some respect for other people's arguments.
@Communist Manatee I've been using Countersquall since my entry into Modern, I have to vouch for it every single time at least as a SB card just because it puts the work in if your deck plays a little more aggressively. Like against decks with really heavy fetch-shock bases, the 2 damage you get in off of keeping them off a high-value noncreature spell like Nahiri, the Harbinger or Scapeshift goes a long way. The mana cost is rarely, if ever, a problem if you fetch right.
@Grimble My username on Cockatrice is Spastik2D2, my usual name was registered somehow when I signed on . I've also built a weirdo rogue list using Demonic Pact, but it focuses more on controlling the board and flickering the pact and some other value ETB cards like Blade Splicer to get value out of it. I was close to proxying that one up until I found ObliteRock and went with that instead, but that's another story.
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-Modern- UUBBBRR Cruel Control BRG BRgBurn BR URStorm
-Commander- B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired] GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
I totally see why Counterquall is a fine card, I guess I never play aggressive enough builds to warrant it
@Grimble having tried out a dedicated Harmless Pact deck, I'm sorry to say I was disappointing. I really wanted it to work and I built this whole Rakdos control shell for it, the problem was that taking the combo out just made the deck better
A new suggestion, for anyone who wishes to join me, I'm no longer going to respond to comments saying things like "Cryptic Command has anti-synergy with your control deck" and I am instead just going to focus on responding to people who might listen/provide some compelling argument's for their case/not just jump to assuming I'm stupid for not thinking their combo is amazing. I want nothing but to keep this thread friendly and polite, but there really isn't a good way of doing that and responding to some of the stuff that is being posted.
@Spastik: It's a very recent addition. I used to run it way back when it was released but decided to give it another shot now and see how it does, I'll be sure to let you know!
@TheCommunistManatee: I know we've discussed devour flesh over geth's verdict but I just can't seem to get myself to play devour flesh because of the life gain. I know it shouldn't matter but I am just not that keen on the idea of my opponent gaining life while I am ticking them down. The mana cost hasn't really been that much of a factor for me. And with the dreadship reef that I just added I should be okay to cast it, hopefully, it hasn't brought me any trouble yet. And I do find myself lacking on the finishing part which is why I am trying suffer the past, I have thought about using tasigur, the golden fang at one point but never got around to getting some, and I have thought about kalitas too, but I'm kind of budget guy. I'll see if i can trade for some soon. And I'll also let you know how Suffer the past goes!
@Grimble: Draw-Go has been the way for me forever =D. I like the way it feels to play and work out. If I can get the thoughtseize's then I'll play those instead of IOK because I know late game, IOK is pretty much dead to me.
I did some play testing with the "8-Rack" engine and sadly it seems that it won't work unless you dedicate to building around "8-Rack" ... not sure that it is going to work. It seems like the deck would only win against fast decks whenever Keranos, God of Storms was on the board. Some of my other builds had performed better.
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(Lantern):
Infraction for Double Posting ~Lantern
I am going to be getting new cards to experiment with and I am redesigning my deck again. I can probably record some footage of me playing against an an actual human opponent though X-Mage or the AI on Forge (which might play like an incompetent opponent) to rule out that people may be playing the deck lists I create wrong and then blaming the deck afterwards. For example, people wondering why I have Squee, Goblin Nabob without first realizing that I have him in there specifically with Kolaghan's Command to annul her (Liliana of the Veil) discard and kill her. If someone doesn't realize that you can do that with those two cards together they may not attempt even when they have those cards in hand.
Eeehhh.... People (me included) DO realize how you want to use Squee to combat Liliana. We just say that it is an ineffective way to do it. I will try to explain, although I have a feeling that you are not gonna consider my arguments against the card, despite the fact that they are pretty obvious.
Decks with Liliana play 4 copies of the PW. You are playing 1 copy of Squee in a 67 (!) card deck. The probability of having a T3 Squee on their T3 Liliana is not in your favor. More likely than not you will NOT have the card.
Now, before you say that you are gonna get him with Gifts, that already gives them at least 2 activation with Lili if you are on the draw, meaning you are already 2 cards down, and then you spend 1 card to fetch an effect that has already hurt you too much. Up to that point they don't care what you discard anymore since you will need 2+ cards to kill lili and Squee doesn't kill her. If you had an instant speed tutor to react to their lili by getting squee in your hand I would say ok, maybe, but you don't.
Even when you do actually have Squee in you hand, the will +1 the lili, you discard it getting it to 4 loyalty. You will still need 2 cards to kill it, meaning a bolt and a K. Command, which you will use to discard one of their cards. Sure, that is a half decent 2 for 2 trade. Next turn you will be getting back Squee which still is a 1/1 for 3 mana, practically a dead card in your hand which does nothing to advance your game plan.
Additionally, even if they are, for whatever reason, so afraid of Squee, which is unlikely, GBx decks (the ones with lili) play scavenging ooze, so they basically get a free counter and a life before you can do anything about it (because of how priority works).
Now let's say you do draw Squee in your opening hand but they don't play lili. You practically have a dead card and start the game with 6 cards. If you are playing against an opponent with no lili then you basically play a 66 card deck with 1 extremely dead draw.
So all in all, Squee is either a liability or completely irrelevant and at best can blank 1 activation from lili which will translate into getting back a dead card (so still not that awesome). Again, we (I, if not everyone else) DO realize and understand your argument and we just try to explain why said argument is bad. Please, try to see it.
The only way I can have a better argument is to literally suggest running Squee, Goblin Nabob with Liliana of the Veil in the same deck. The reason being that the same energy that breaks up an opponents usage of Liliana of the Veil has the same synastry with helping you overcome the discard effect that she has on you. Both players have to discard a card. You can just keep discarding him and you won't lose any cards.
See, this is the problem, you give no arguments. People try to explain you things and you just don't care. You just say the same thing over and over with no real arguments. That is impolite and please, show some respect for other people's arguments.
You asked for a better argument from me and I gave you what you wanted, at least on paper it was a better argument. I did try out doing some sort of "8-Rack" based engine which did not work that well. Heck, one of the lists I had which included mana-fixers Pilgrim's Eye and Chromatic Lantern performs better against fast decks than using an "8-Rack" sort of engine. I am willing to admit that much.
Dlanze...the only reason 8-rack works is because it runs all 8 copies of The Rack and Shrieking Affliction along with the rest of the spells either being discard spells, Lilis, alt win cons or removal, and a playset of Ensnaring Bridge. You can't just ram two racks, a lone Shrieking Affliction, and Keranos in and expect it to work, you have so few cards that the odds of getting all of the parts you need AND surviving to casting them are low. Like people used to be like "jam the Twin combo in any URx deck", but that actually kind of worked for the most part because those 12 cards could win you the game with or without the rest of your deck. This is like taking two or three different deck types and trying to slam them together, maybe some of the cards have "synastry", whatever that is, but you're trading in and crippling your ability to follow up after Cruel for some synergy between certain cards you run as dualies or singletons and it doesn't really make any sense how adding in like 1/6th of the 8rack build would make your deck more consistent.
You also still haven't answered if you've gotten around to playing your build against actual people at an FNM, I'd really like to know what paper magic tournaments are doing for your build since the rest of us are using these decks in paper. Please do respond to this instead of picking one thing to respond to.
Adding parts of "8-Rack" actually did not make my deck consistent. The last time I was at my locals I went 2-2. I won against some weird homebrew deck playing Kitchen Finks and some Red-Green-Black deck which was based around a Garruk card, I believe Garruk Relentless. I lost against an Archangel of Thune lifegain deck and a Mono-Green deck playing mostly hex-proof creatures with Dungrove Elder and some sort of land destruction.
A new suggestion, for anyone who wishes to join me, I'm no longer going to respond to comments saying things like "Cryptic Command has anti-synergy with your control deck" and I am instead just going to focus on responding to people who might listen/provide some compelling argument's for their case/not just jump to assuming I'm stupid for not thinking their combo is amazing. I want nothing but to keep this thread friendly and polite, but there really isn't a good way of doing that and responding to some of the stuff that is being posted.
Saying "This card it Amazing!!! Everyone should play it, because every thinks it is good" isn't exactly a good argument either, in fact it is a textbook example of a logical fallacy associated with bad arguments.
And also, I never said that my combo was amazing, I wouldn't go around saying any card is amazing and I don't expect everyone to jump on the "Bandwagon" effect to play my combo.
It is true that cards like Snapcaster Mage and Cryptic Command can fit into any deck that plays blue and make it seemingly better, but you have to make your mana base to pump consistent blue. But again, my argument remains that Cruel Ultimatum as a card is designed to run primarily black and Cryptic Command mono-blue. You'll find no logical fallacies in this argument like "this card is awesome you should play because everyone plays it!" ... it just simply is this, that you are not really playing "Cruel Control" by playing a Cryptic Command based engine.
No one here has really given sufficient arguments except for pointing out that "Jeskai Control" has been ranking well lately, runs Cryptic Command and has too many answers against this archetype without also running it and a blue mana base for counterspells. That makes sense, but Cruel Ultimatum is still intended to be mostly black. That is why I have been saying things like "only unethical fights unethical" and every ones takes it personal when I am actually agreeing with the concept of fighting a deck by taking what is strong about it and throwing it back at it; but, while its unethical to play this card out of context, its probably justified. I never said not to do it.
Last night I went to the shop and made some trades for some cards. I managed to get 2 tasigur, the golden fang and 1 consume the meek. While not the best sweeper, it's all he had and I figured it's better than nothing.
I was thinking I would try 4 IOK with tasigur and see how it goes. It might be able to work out. I was thinking of kalitas and when I do get one or two I'll swap out IOK for thoughtseize because of lifelink so it should work out a bit better and not be scary to cast thoughtseize.
Jace actually has won me quite a few games and one matchup entirely. The draw is nice and I love to scry because it helps me filter and dig for potentially what I need. I've managed to plus him to his ultimate twice and have my opponent scoop before I cast it. I like this Jace because of the ultimate. A free counter which saves you resources. Worst case scenario you draw a card or two while you have it.
I am going to try tasigur tonight and see how he helps me out, if it doesn't go too well then I'll be swapping him for kalitas.
@Blud I'm interested to see where your build goes in terms of results, it's definitely giving me a Blue Jund vibe by trading out card draw for discard spells. Hell, if you end up getting room and you want to get early Tasigur action going, you could probably jam in a three of Thought Scour to get earlier delve creatures out or to fuel Suffer. Also if you end up finding that Consume the Meek doesn't get there as a sweeper, I'd recommend Crux of Fate and Languish if you can't dive straight into Damnation. They're more expensive or only kill stuff with four toughness respectively, but they still get the job done and when are you ever going to see dragons in modern anyways?
@Grimble My ObliteRock deck doesn't really do fight spells at all, it's more or less just Red-less Jund with much more removal and with Obliterator as an inevitable finisher. I'm still ironing out the kinks since it loses life even more than Cruel does and my own Bobs have been killing me off a ton recently, but Kitchen Finks might be enough to offset it along with Scooze and the new golgari fast land replacing my Quagmires.
@Dlanze I've lost all motivation to try and work with you. I had some glimmer of hope reading through this after you actually managed to post results figuring we could take it from there, but after seeing you say "No one here has really given sufficient arguments" when that's all we've been stuck doing with you AND telling us that we're not playing Cruel Control because we're not adhering to your stupid rules, I've lost all hope. You keep doing your thing, I'm done and want no part of it.
So tonight's modern night. I might not be running Cruel tonight just because one of my meta's been really anti-control recently and I've been loaned GR Tron, but I'm still going to try and fit in some Cruel testing with people there in between rounds, I'll let everyone know what happens tomorrow.
A new suggestion, for anyone who wishes to join me, I'm no longer going to respond to comments saying things like "Cryptic Command has anti-synergy with your control deck" and I am instead just going to focus on responding to people who might listen/provide some compelling argument's for their case/not just jump to assuming I'm stupid for not thinking their combo is amazing. I want nothing but to keep this thread friendly and polite, but there really isn't a good way of doing that and responding to some of the stuff that is being posted.
Saying "This card it Amazing!!! Everyone should play it, because every thinks it is good" isn't exactly a good argument either, in fact it is a textbook example of a logical fallacy associated with bad arguments.
And also, I never said that my combo was amazing, I wouldn't go around saying any card is amazing and I don't expect everyone to jump on the "Bandwagon" effect to play my combo.
It is true that cards like Snapcaster Mage and Cryptic Command can fit into any deck that plays blue and make it seemingly better, but you have to make your mana base to pump consistent blue. But again, my argument remains that Cruel Ultimatum as a card is designed to run primarily black and Cryptic Command mono-blue. You'll find no logical fallacies in this argument like "this card is awesome you should play because everyone plays it!" ... it just simply is this, that you are not really playing "Cruel Control" by playing a Cryptic Command based engine.
No one here has really given sufficient arguments except for pointing out that "Jeskai Control" has been ranking well lately, runs Cryptic Command and has too many answers against this archetype without also running it and a blue mana base for counterspells. That makes sense, but Cruel Ultimatum is still intended to be mostly black. That is why I have been saying things like "only unethical fights unethical" and every ones takes it personal when I am actually agreeing with the concept of fighting a deck by taking what is strong about it and throwing it back at it; but, while its unethical to play this card out of context, its probably justified. I never said not to do it.
I can't say I agree not having cryptic in a cruel list. I've been running one to 3-1 and 4-0 results (decklist I believe is a few pages back) you can make it blue based, you just need a greedy mana base, hope no main deck blood moon, and. Be prepared if there is.
On the note of Blood Moon, I am just quickly going to drop my 2 cents on IoK and Thoughtseize. I think playing some amount of discard spells is a good plan in our deck as there are some thing that are best dealt with as soon as possible. Blood Moon and Liliana of the Veil are the two cards I would generally consider to be the biggest threat to us, and both IoK and Thoughtseize grab them. I currently play 2 IoK in a flex slot, my reasoning being that the meta I play in is generally pretty aggressive and the 2 life can matter, and given that the cards I care most about are 3 cmc IoK does a fine job.
I would also say that Duress actually does a pretty good impersonation of most of what I want from my discard spells. The non-creature clause is a real drawback, but if you are packing loads of removal it probably isn't that big of a deal.
I'll be playing in my first FNM in aaaaaaaages tomorrow. I can't promise a full report, but I'll try and make sure I bring back some headlines (total result, any cards I liked or hated etc.)
A new suggestion, for anyone who wishes to join me, I'm no longer going to respond to comments saying things like "Cryptic Command has anti-synergy with your control deck" and I am instead just going to focus on responding to people who might listen/provide some compelling argument's for their case/not just jump to assuming I'm stupid for not thinking their combo is amazing. I want nothing but to keep this thread friendly and polite, but there really isn't a good way of doing that and responding to some of the stuff that is being posted.
Saying "This card it Amazing!!! Everyone should play it, because every thinks it is good" isn't exactly a good argument either, in fact it is a textbook example of a logical fallacy associated with bad arguments.
And also, I never said that my combo was amazing, I wouldn't go around saying any card is amazing and I don't expect everyone to jump on the "Bandwagon" effect to play my combo.
It is true that cards like Snapcaster Mage and Cryptic Command can fit into any deck that plays blue and make it seemingly better, but you have to make your mana base to pump consistent blue. But again, my argument remains that Cruel Ultimatum as a card is designed to run primarily black and Cryptic Command mono-blue. You'll find no logical fallacies in this argument like "this card is awesome you should play because everyone plays it!" ... it just simply is this, that you are not really playing "Cruel Control" by playing a Cryptic Command based engine.
No one here has really given sufficient arguments except for pointing out that "Jeskai Control" has been ranking well lately, runs Cryptic Command and has too many answers against this archetype without also running it and a blue mana base for counterspells. That makes sense, but Cruel Ultimatum is still intended to be mostly black. That is why I have been saying things like "only unethical fights unethical" and every ones takes it personal when I am actually agreeing with the concept of fighting a deck by taking what is strong about it and throwing it back at it; but, while its unethical to play this card out of context, its probably justified. I never said not to do it.
I can't say I agree not having cryptic in a cruel list. I've been running one to 3-1 and 4-0 results (decklist I believe is a few pages back) you can make it blue based, you just need a greedy mana base, hope no main deck blood moon, and. Be prepared if there is.
You could sideboard Blood Moon yourself, have yourself prepared to go mostly monored and do an insane land mutilation/destruction strategy. The only problem is that you'll also need your whole sideboard to switch cards out which means that you'll have to do this against every other deck, too. You won't have much room for sideboard cards against other decks. Somewhat risky. But I suppose if people think its a good idea to put a card like Cryptic Command in a "Cruel Control" deck, I say basing a "Cruel Control" deck around sideboarding Blood Moon in is totally fair game.
I went to my shop but I didn't play this week. Decided to save my pennies for kaladesh draft but I played against RG tron and it's honestly one matchup I play against a lot. Tron is all around not a favorable matchup for us unless game 2 and 3 we manage to stop the tron from coming online. Which is doable but difficult. I think thoughtseize is better for us in this case although I like IOK and it's ability to stop sylvan scrying ans expedition map. I speak strictly on RG tron. I haven't played against many other tron variantions.
I am going to try a more disrupt game play style with my list. Just adding 4 IOK mb and see how it goes until I can get some kalitas and switch over to thoughtseize.
On the note of blood moon, me personally, I would absolutely not play it myself. Not even put it in the sb. That's just me.
I definitely try to stop sylvan scrying and expedition map. Ancient stirrings is a good deep draw but sometimes I'll let it pass and save the counters for what comes after.
I did want to try condescend again for the nice X factor it brings late game with dreadship reef and plus the scry. I love scry lolol.
@Grimble That's actually an ancient strategy that previous Rock players had. Like they ran a two-of Pit Fight for the immediate forced sacrifice. I WOULD run it, but as previously mentioned my Meta is insanely diverse and a lot of times I get stuck against combo decks with no way of making fight spells work.
On Tron, I played it last night to good results (3-1) and I can absolutely say that if you're looking to disrupt tron, ALWAYS. HIT. MAP. STIRRINGS. SCRYING. AND THE EGGS IF YOU CAN. Counter them, force the discard on them, do whatever you can to stop them from happening. I can't tell how many times one single well placed Chromatic Star or Chromatic Sphere let me go straight into the land I needed to turn on Tron. We need to be as aggressive as humanly possible against Tron. If you've got Bolts, throw them out, snap them back, do whatever you can to keep pressure going. Tron's in topdeck mode is horrifying to play against, but it's also horrifying for whoever's piloting it because they have no idea if they're going to hit a land they don't need or if they'll get gas.
On Blood moon...why would you run it in a deck that wants to cast a spell for UUBBBRR? You might as well play Blue Moon at that point and drop Cruel in its entirety.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Modern- UUBBBRR Cruel Control BRG BRgBurn BR URStorm
-Commander- B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired] GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
Honestly I've never found a consistent way of beating Tron.Obviously IoK isn't as good there, but to be honest nothing I do really seems to work. I have 2 crumbles in my board but even that doesn't seem to be enough. I think with my build it might just be a matchup I give up on
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Here it is; this is only theory right now and has not been tested (I did not make a sideboard):
1x Archaeomancer
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Grave Titan
1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Keranos, God of Storms
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Torrential Gearhulk
1x Liliana of the Veil
Land (24)
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Island
1x Lavaclaw Reaches
2x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Smoldering Marsh
4x Sunken Hollow
1x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Cryptic Command
4x Devour Flesh
3x Dismember
2x Gifts Ungiven
1x Kolaghan's Command
Sorcery (8)
2x Cruel Ultimatum
2x Damnation
4x Rise // Fall
Enchantment (1)
1x Shrieking Affliction
Artifact (2)
2x The Rack
The only way I can have a better argument is to literally suggest running Squee, Goblin Nabob with Liliana of the Veil in the same deck. The reason being that the same energy that breaks up an opponents usage of Liliana of the Veil has the same synastry with helping you overcome the discard effect that she has on you. Both players have to discard a card. You can just keep discarding him and you won't lose any cards.
You also still haven't answered if you've gotten around to playing your build against actual people at an FNM, I'd really like to know what paper magic tournaments are doing for your build since the rest of us are using these decks in paper. Please do respond to this instead of picking one thing to respond to.
UUBBBRR Cruel Control
BRG BRgBurn
BR URStorm
-Commander-
B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator
U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired]
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
@Grimble My username on Cockatrice is Spastik2D2, my usual name was registered somehow when I signed on . I've also built a weirdo rogue list using Demonic Pact, but it focuses more on controlling the board and flickering the pact and some other value ETB cards like Blade Splicer to get value out of it. I was close to proxying that one up until I found ObliteRock and went with that instead, but that's another story.
UUBBBRR Cruel Control
BRG BRgBurn
BR URStorm
-Commander-
B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator
U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired]
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
@Grimble having tried out a dedicated Harmless Pact deck, I'm sorry to say I was disappointing. I really wanted it to work and I built this whole Rakdos control shell for it, the problem was that taking the combo out just made the deck better
A new suggestion, for anyone who wishes to join me, I'm no longer going to respond to comments saying things like "Cryptic Command has anti-synergy with your control deck" and I am instead just going to focus on responding to people who might listen/provide some compelling argument's for their case/not just jump to assuming I'm stupid for not thinking their combo is amazing. I want nothing but to keep this thread friendly and polite, but there really isn't a good way of doing that and responding to some of the stuff that is being posted.
@TheCommunistManatee: I know we've discussed devour flesh over geth's verdict but I just can't seem to get myself to play devour flesh because of the life gain. I know it shouldn't matter but I am just not that keen on the idea of my opponent gaining life while I am ticking them down. The mana cost hasn't really been that much of a factor for me. And with the dreadship reef that I just added I should be okay to cast it, hopefully, it hasn't brought me any trouble yet. And I do find myself lacking on the finishing part which is why I am trying suffer the past, I have thought about using tasigur, the golden fang at one point but never got around to getting some, and I have thought about kalitas too, but I'm kind of budget guy. I'll see if i can trade for some soon. And I'll also let you know how Suffer the past goes!
@Grimble: Draw-Go has been the way for me forever =D. I like the way it feels to play and work out. If I can get the thoughtseize's then I'll play those instead of IOK because I know late game, IOK is pretty much dead to me.
UUBBBRR
You asked for a better argument from me and I gave you what you wanted, at least on paper it was a better argument. I did try out doing some sort of "8-Rack" based engine which did not work that well. Heck, one of the lists I had which included mana-fixers Pilgrim's Eye and Chromatic Lantern performs better against fast decks than using an "8-Rack" sort of engine. I am willing to admit that much.
Adding parts of "8-Rack" actually did not make my deck consistent. The last time I was at my locals I went 2-2. I won against some weird homebrew deck playing Kitchen Finks and some Red-Green-Black deck which was based around a Garruk card, I believe Garruk Relentless. I lost against an Archangel of Thune lifegain deck and a Mono-Green deck playing mostly hex-proof creatures with Dungrove Elder and some sort of land destruction.
Saying "This card it Amazing!!! Everyone should play it, because every thinks it is good" isn't exactly a good argument either, in fact it is a textbook example of a logical fallacy associated with bad arguments.
And also, I never said that my combo was amazing, I wouldn't go around saying any card is amazing and I don't expect everyone to jump on the "Bandwagon" effect to play my combo.
It is true that cards like Snapcaster Mage and Cryptic Command can fit into any deck that plays blue and make it seemingly better, but you have to make your mana base to pump consistent blue. But again, my argument remains that Cruel Ultimatum as a card is designed to run primarily black and Cryptic Command mono-blue. You'll find no logical fallacies in this argument like "this card is awesome you should play because everyone plays it!" ... it just simply is this, that you are not really playing "Cruel Control" by playing a Cryptic Command based engine.
No one here has really given sufficient arguments except for pointing out that "Jeskai Control" has been ranking well lately, runs Cryptic Command and has too many answers against this archetype without also running it and a blue mana base for counterspells. That makes sense, but Cruel Ultimatum is still intended to be mostly black. That is why I have been saying things like "only unethical fights unethical" and every ones takes it personal when I am actually agreeing with the concept of fighting a deck by taking what is strong about it and throwing it back at it; but, while its unethical to play this card out of context, its probably justified. I never said not to do it.
I was thinking I would try 4 IOK with tasigur and see how it goes. It might be able to work out. I was thinking of kalitas and when I do get one or two I'll swap out IOK for thoughtseize because of lifelink so it should work out a bit better and not be scary to cast thoughtseize.
Jace actually has won me quite a few games and one matchup entirely. The draw is nice and I love to scry because it helps me filter and dig for potentially what I need. I've managed to plus him to his ultimate twice and have my opponent scoop before I cast it. I like this Jace because of the ultimate. A free counter which saves you resources. Worst case scenario you draw a card or two while you have it.
I am going to try tasigur tonight and see how he helps me out, if it doesn't go too well then I'll be swapping him for kalitas.
UUBBBRR
@Grimble My ObliteRock deck doesn't really do fight spells at all, it's more or less just Red-less Jund with much more removal and with Obliterator as an inevitable finisher. I'm still ironing out the kinks since it loses life even more than Cruel does and my own Bobs have been killing me off a ton recently, but Kitchen Finks might be enough to offset it along with Scooze and the new golgari fast land replacing my Quagmires.
@Dlanze I've lost all motivation to try and work with you. I had some glimmer of hope reading through this after you actually managed to post results figuring we could take it from there, but after seeing you say "No one here has really given sufficient arguments" when that's all we've been stuck doing with you AND telling us that we're not playing Cruel Control because we're not adhering to your stupid rules, I've lost all hope. You keep doing your thing, I'm done and want no part of it.
So tonight's modern night. I might not be running Cruel tonight just because one of my meta's been really anti-control recently and I've been loaned GR Tron, but I'm still going to try and fit in some Cruel testing with people there in between rounds, I'll let everyone know what happens tomorrow.
UUBBBRR Cruel Control
BRG BRgBurn
BR URStorm
-Commander-
B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator
U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired]
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens
I can't say I agree not having cryptic in a cruel list. I've been running one to 3-1 and 4-0 results (decklist I believe is a few pages back) you can make it blue based, you just need a greedy mana base, hope no main deck blood moon, and. Be prepared if there is.
I would also say that Duress actually does a pretty good impersonation of most of what I want from my discard spells. The non-creature clause is a real drawback, but if you are packing loads of removal it probably isn't that big of a deal.
I'll be playing in my first FNM in aaaaaaaages tomorrow. I can't promise a full report, but I'll try and make sure I bring back some headlines (total result, any cards I liked or hated etc.)
You could sideboard Blood Moon yourself, have yourself prepared to go mostly monored and do an insane land mutilation/destruction strategy. The only problem is that you'll also need your whole sideboard to switch cards out which means that you'll have to do this against every other deck, too. You won't have much room for sideboard cards against other decks. Somewhat risky. But I suppose if people think its a good idea to put a card like Cryptic Command in a "Cruel Control" deck, I say basing a "Cruel Control" deck around sideboarding Blood Moon in is totally fair game.
I am going to try a more disrupt game play style with my list. Just adding 4 IOK mb and see how it goes until I can get some kalitas and switch over to thoughtseize.
On the note of blood moon, me personally, I would absolutely not play it myself. Not even put it in the sb. That's just me.
UUBBBRR
I did want to try condescend again for the nice X factor it brings late game with dreadship reef and plus the scry. I love scry lolol.
UUBBBRR
On Tron, I played it last night to good results (3-1) and I can absolutely say that if you're looking to disrupt tron, ALWAYS. HIT. MAP. STIRRINGS. SCRYING. AND THE EGGS IF YOU CAN. Counter them, force the discard on them, do whatever you can to stop them from happening. I can't tell how many times one single well placed Chromatic Star or Chromatic Sphere let me go straight into the land I needed to turn on Tron. We need to be as aggressive as humanly possible against Tron. If you've got Bolts, throw them out, snap them back, do whatever you can to keep pressure going. Tron's in topdeck mode is horrifying to play against, but it's also horrifying for whoever's piloting it because they have no idea if they're going to hit a land they don't need or if they'll get gas.
On Blood moon...why would you run it in a deck that wants to cast a spell for UUBBBRR? You might as well play Blue Moon at that point and drop Cruel in its entirety.
UUBBBRR Cruel Control
BRG BRgBurn
BR URStorm
-Commander-
B Chainer, Dementia Master - Reanimator
U Teferi, Temporal Archmage - Calimari Tribal [Retired]
GB Ishkanah, Grafwidow - Delirium/Tokens