Thanks for the replies. I played some more with that list and the other problem I've been having is how horrible sphinx's revelation is. I understand it can get brought back with Jace but tapping out on my turn for no board presence seems like the last thing I want to be doing. Having an AV seems better almost every time. I swapped them out and the deck feels quite a bit smoother.
Thank you for the warm welcome! I would be glad to answer all of your questions below:
1)Deprive is working well for you? I think is a bad counter for control decks.
That is why I am only playing 1 Deprive. It feels disastrous to need to bounce a land in the early game, but what I have learned from this deck is that you lean on your Supreme Verdicts to accrue value against the creature decks, so you are more willing to allow early creatures to resolve, just to catch them with the Verdict. The Deprive is only for very specific things, or to help tempo your opponent out of the game after stopping the initial rush.
2)In my test jace beleren isn´t worth the slot and crucible is most a SB card, how you feel them?.
They are both crucial to the mana curve and the way this deck generates card advantage. Many times I see players play this deck with Ancestral Vision and Sphinx's Revelation. The issue with AV is the time factor. You may get 3 cards 4 turns later, but you don't always have 4 turns to wait, plus in the late game you can't start getting your card advantage investment back immediately. Instead I erred to playing these various planeswalkers (Jace B, Jace AoT, Tamiyo) and the Crucible to create incremental card advantage. You will draw 3 cards over the course of the number of turns it would take to draw those cards from an ancestral. This deck wants to hit its land drops. You could either play Serum Visions (which takes up valuable slots, and makes you trim on interaction and finishers), or utilize these incremental card advantage engines. I chose to do the latter.
3)I want play Tamiyo... I want play her sooooooo much... how you feel her?
Wonderful. Nothing but positive things to say about this card. It can serve multiple functions. You can combine it with Crucible of Worlds and GQ to disrupt manabases, lock down large threats, and gain minor card advantage. It is also very good at tangoing with the Achilles Heel of many control decks: Man Lands. Having a GQ and a Tamiyo beats 2 Man Lands. Then moving your way to ultimate and ultimating ends the game. Straight up. I do think the card works well in tandem with the design of the deck, but you couldn't just shoehorn her into anything. You are playing her with Gideon to lock down and assassinate large threats, or protect Gideon as he tries to get larger, etc.
Why dissolve? Is slow against a lot of tier one decks, you dont prefer Logic Knot x2, mana leak or negate?
Dissolve is a touch slow against the tier 1 decks, but it is a card I play because of the deck's main removal spell. Path to exile provides all of your opponents additional lands, which you can not afford to be doing in a mana leak deck. Mana Leak is a much beter counter in a Grixis or Jeskai deck, because you have Bolt, Terminate, etc to kill early creatures, and aren't ramping your opponent past the most critical counterspell in your deck. I am actively avoiding Mana Leak like the plague, and having a nonconditional counterspell that also provides a small touch of card filtering has fit nicely in the deck.
5)Secure the wastes is great in a more instant speed list, but if you are in a tap and go strategy i prefer another threat. 5 Planeswalkers + 2 Sphinx + Secure isn´t too much? Same question with 4 snapcasters.
Secure the Wastes is just a great card. No qualifiers. It can be a midnight haunting on turn 3 when you need some 1/1 blockers, and can provide you a good midgame threat to combine with your planeswalkers as blockers or for pressure. The issue a deck like this has is closing the game. This card ends the game. I don't ever feel like that stuff is too much, look at it from this perspective: you can easily curve out on 3, 4, 5, and 6 with the walkers, but each one of them serves a different purpose, and gains you card advantage in a different way, which is very useful for the way this deck operates.
4 Snapcaster is great. If you look at this deck, you have quite a few 1 for 1s, just like Jund, but the thing is you have many many more 2+ for 1s, which is how Jund used to be, but now Jund is basically a tempo deck, trying to play a 2 drop of choice and ride it to victory behind discard and removal. Snapcaster is the beginning of your snowball of incremental card advantage. You get to get a Spell Snare, a condemn, a blessed alliance, or whatever useful spell you have drawn and a block out of it. Which lets you live to verdict, which lets you live to your walkers.
6)I like elixir tech, but how work with all your graveyard interaction (4 snapcatser, 1 crucible, 1 Logic Knot). How is your experience with this card.
Elixir has been alright. Occasionally it does get awkward with Snapcaster (because you may strand a Snapcaster without a spell) but the Crucible isn't a big deal. You can just play your GQ, Colonnade, Fetch, whatever you want out of your yard, then use the Elixir and fetch/GQ, and have access to it still. If you don't play carefully and aware of the situations you are sculpting, you will lose, just like any other deck. The Logic Knot is in there because of the Elixir. Once you figure out what your opponent is playing, you can Logic Knot a spell, and delve away all of the low impact cards for the given matchup, which will then raise the density of relevant cards in your deck when go through the next pass of your deck with Elixir. Playing with Elixir is all about reading and recognizing what is going on, and what end game situations you are sculpting.
Thanks for the replies. I played some more with that list and the other problem I've been having is how horrible sphinx's revelation is. I understand it can get brought back with Jace but tapping out on my turn for no board presence seems like the last thing I want to be doing. Having an AV seems better almost every time. I swapped them out and the deck feels quite a bit smoother.
I'm not sure that Sphinx is worse than AV here. Sphinx is a better topdeck for sure. And requires less slots.
Personally i think Sphinx is way better than AV in UW builds. I love 1-2 MD copies and i think is an underrated card generally.
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Modern: Jeskai control / Jeskai Geist
Death and taxes / UW control
I've got a a few matches in and it seems pretty reasonable, though I'm going to eventually put serum visions in it...that's the way it often goes anyway.
So, I made top 8 in a 95-people WMCQ with the following list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13569&d=279860&f=MO. On the previous day, I got 9th in a 75 people PPTQ in the same store. Reading bigdeezyrider's comments, it's amazing how we've come to very similar conclusions about the archtype but wound up with very different lists. In my case, I abandoned slow, pure card advantage cards like AV and Sphinx Revelation because the format is simply too fast for them to matter in many matchups; instead, by playing value creatures that generate incremental card advantage, we can survive the early game and them outgrind our opponents in the late game.
I purposely decided to focus on beating the hyper aggro decks (suicide zoo, burn, infect, go wide decks) as I felt those were the most popular in the brazilian metagame; however, I got it a bit wrong, as the meta was extremely varied. In the PPTQ, I went 5-2, losing to Mardu Planeswalkers (0-2) and RW Moon (1-2; dude had blood moon turn 2 on the first game and turn 1 on the third, both times on the play) and beating Burning-Tree Zoo twice (both times 2-0), Infect (2-0), Dredge (2-1) and Jund. On the WMCQ, I went 5-1-1, losing to Titanshift (1-2) and drawing with Grixis Delver to top 8. I beat Infect (2-1), RW Moon (2-0, no godhands from him this time), UW Control Mirror (1-0), Merfolk (2-0) and Jund (2-1). In the quarterfinals, I lost two quick games to Bant Eldrazi - a good matchup, but sometimes they can start on turn 2 with Thought-Knot and curve from there in a way that feels like Eldrazi Winter never really left.
After the events, I gotta say that I found Serum Visions to be the best card in the deck, followed closely by Path and Snap. Jace is great against non-interactive decks, but if you want him to be a relible card advantage engine, you have to couple him with Ojutai's (or Kolaghan's) command; the best surprise of the weekend was just how strong Blessed Alliance was, both working as a way to recover life and dealing with hard to remove creatures. Overall, I feel like UW is a deck that can be tuned to beat anything, but doesn't really have the objective power level to simply "jund 'em out" in an unknown metagame. That's why I think there's so much variance on well placing lists - we don't have tarmogoyfs and lilianas, but we do have a ton of flexible, powerful options of disruption and many card advantage engines. This way, if a UW player can accurately predict the broadstrokes of a metagame, he can tune his list to great success.
Thoughts on 1-2x Blessed Alliance on the Biava's build? It lets us swing + pseudo protect our ojutai dragon lord, it may help us loot with Jace, its nuts against burn and help against things like bogles/grindy matchups with the sacrifice clause.
Thoughts on 1-2x Blessed Alliance on the Biava's build? It lets us swing + pseudo protect our ojutai dragon lord, it may help us loot with Jace, its nuts against burn and help against things like bogles/grindy matchups with the sacrifice clause.
I definitely think blessed alliance has a place in the list. That card has been nothing but gas for me. At the minimum it just kills an attacking creature. At best it blows boggles and infect out of the game, let's you three for one off the sac and fogs a fourth creature you let through. That card single handedly turned my boggle and infect matchup into heavily favored.
Plus like you said with ojutai you can just counter a removal spell which is cool.
How you feel baby jace without O. Command? you want cut them in your next list or put an Command.
I think I'm taking out Jace VP. I also feel the metagame will get slightly less linear, so I'm thinking of replacing him with a Jace Beleren and maybe a think twice or another card draw spell.
So I ran Biavas list at a local tournament last night. I went 3-1 but I think the list is really really bad. Baby Jace was a strictly worse mefolk looter every time I had him out. He stuck around for ten turns one game and generated no value. The only thing he managed to do was soak up a couple points of damage when I was in no danger of dying.
Ojutais command was pretty lackluster as well. I counter-drew a couple times which is always nice but otherwise it was a dead card pretty frequently.
Dragonlord ojutai was the bomb. I rode the Dragonlord train to victory every game I won. Sphinx's revelation was decent. I'm not sure if I like it more than ancestral vision but it wasn't bad.
I definitely think a list of two Dragonlords, finks, resto, clique and walls is a much smoother and more resilient threat base.
I've played quite a bit more online with the list. Jace is actively bad. Running the threat base I mentioned makes your combo matchups much better. Biavas list takes forever to close the game out. Against combo you want disruption in the form of cliques and counters and a fast clock. Resto and clique in particular are exactly what you want to be doing in combo matchups. They clock in well, are instant speed and constantly disrupt their hand.
I don't know how running a two mana bad looter that synergizes terribly with counters and a four mana spell that can't hit combos is supposed to improve your combo matchups. You could just run clocks and better counters instead.
Speaking of which geist of saint traft has been really clutch out of the sideboard against combo decks and controlish deck that don't have a lot of crap to throw in front of him.
You are describing the main problem of most control decks: lack of quick finisher. It happens on Grixis, it happens on WUR (unless they run Nahiri + emrakul and are able to swing with it), it happens everywhere.
Jace looks for answers, flips and may stall the board or take huge value recasting spells like ojutai's command or paths.
BTW: you say "Resto and CLIQUE are extaclty what you want to be doing in combo matchups" and this deck is running 2 Cliques main and 1 Side with a Resto.
I dont mean Baby Jace is insane, but I dont think it is as bad as you supose it is. Also, in any moment we were able to know which matchups did you find. There's no surprise on it being actively bad against burn where it dies to searing blaze so badly achieving nothing. (well burn is a good matchup in general for UW, but the value of jace there is pretty low)
The following data is composed of the top 5 most recent UW Midrange decks within the past 6 months that are based off of Yuuya Watanabe and Junichiro Bando's (JB2002) versions of the archetype. The side-by-side comparison is designed to provide an analysis of the deck's most common cards between the main and side. This information can be utilized as a guideline to understand its core design philosophy when developing and optimizing this version of UW Midrange.
Note: The parenthesis indicates the total counters.
This data will also be included in the UW Midrange Control Primer.
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The following data is composed of the top 5 most recent UW Midrange decks within the past 6 months that are based off of Yuuya Watanabe and Junichiro Bando's (JB2002) versions of the archetype. The side-by-side comparison is designed to provide an analysis of the deck's most common cards between the main and side. This information can be utilized as a guideline to understand its core design philosophy when developing and optimizing this version of UW Midrange.
Note: The parenthesis indicates the total counters.
This data will also be included in the UW Midrange Control Primer.
Great job Neo7hinker!!!
Some random apreciation of my experience + this list:
1)Dragonlord Ojutai is the real deal.
2)All the list run 4 finks, my list run 3 and i allways feel that i need one more...
3)Elspeth can be a good card in MB in this meta.
4)Gideon is still great in UW.
5)IDK if Revelation is what we want (i love the card but maybe in this meta elspeth is simply a better big wincon for UW midrange).
6)We don´t need serum visions.
7)Detention sphere is still viable (i cut to 1 after nahiri decks).
8)2 negate in SB is the correct number.
9)Glenn elendra is a great SB card.
10)IMO spreading seas dont worth the slot (MB or SB).
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Modern: Jeskai control / Jeskai Geist
Death and taxes / UW control
Hallowed Burial is an interesting piece of tech I've been playing in my board for the Dredge matchup. Been working well so far.
Been trying out some Kaladesh cards too. Ceremonious Rejection and Fragmentize are awesome sideboard cards, especially with Snapcaster. The tempo you can gain out of them are insane. I'm really high on Filigree Familiar right now too; not sure if it's good enough to replace Finks, but I really like having 7-8 solid cantripping creatures in my list. Torrential Gearhulk I haven't actually played in a match yet, but it seems great in the BGx Midrange matchup as a bigger, badder Snapcaster.
I'm not as high on Ojutai as some of you seem to be. He just doesn't seem to do anything the turn he comes into play, which seems subpar in this meta. Now I could be misguided, but I've been having luck with Baneslayer Angel and some other collection of threats in that slot instead.
Also, Perilous Research is a card I stumbled upon and has been doing well in testing. Turns into a 2 mana draw 3 with Familiar, and has cool synergy with Detention Sphere and Finks, random chaff like Wall of Omens, and not to mention gives us extra usage for times when we are flooding. I've been running it as a 2-of and prolly wouldn't go higher.
EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
The following data is composed of the top 5 most recent UW Midrange decks within the past 6 months that are based off of Yuuya Watanabe and Junichiro Bando's (JB2002) versions of the archetype. The side-by-side comparison is designed to provide an analysis of the deck's most common cards between the main and side. This information can be utilized as a guideline to understand its core design philosophy when developing and optimizing this version of UW Midrange.
Note: The parenthesis indicates the total counters.
This data will also be included in the UW Midrange Control Primer.
Great job Neo7hinker!!!
Some random apreciation of my experience + this list:
1)Dragonlord Ojutai is the real deal.
2)All the list run 4 finks, my list run 3 and i allways feel that i need one more...
3)Elspeth can be a good card in MB in this meta.
4)Gideon is still great in UW.
5)IDK if Revelation is what we want (i love the card but maybe in this meta elspeth is simply a better big wincon for UW midrange).
6)We don´t need serum visions.
7)Detention sphere is still viable (i cut to 1 after nahiri decks).
8)2 negate in SB is the correct number.
9)Glenn elendra is a great SB card.
10)IMO spreading seas dont worth the slot (MB or SB).
I agree on most of your points. Ojutai is absolute gas. Having an ojutai and minamo on the field feels unlosable. Even connecting once with him puts you so far ahead. To the guy who said ojutai never does anything: are you waiting to swing with him until you have protection? The power of him is that if you can't protect him from removal you can just not attack.
As for your point about two negates sideboard, how many do you run main deck? I've been running two in the main and I never struggle to find targets. They get cut maybe a third of the time but I've been super happy with them main deck.
I've been trying revelation and it's been okay. I think I like AV better as a card draw spell, but you can run two sphinx's in place of three AV and I really value having more slots main board. I'm terms of what I want to be doing with six mana Elspeth is definitely better. I still leave her in the side due to her slowness but when she is good she wins the game outright.
Also shoutout to Gideon being the man. One of main board is definitely the right amount but there are so many games where he hits the board and there's no losing from that point.
Been trying a fun of moorland haunt in place of a ghost quarter. I only played a few games but I've been happy with it so far. Buys so much time against aggro.
Top 5 Options as of 10/12/16 -
1-2 Engineered Explosives
2-3 Ancestral Vision/Serum Visions
2 Runed Halo
1-2 Surgical Extraction
1-2 Condemn
- Maindeck Updates: 10/11/16 -
10/11/16: 2 Negate > 2 Remand
Remand has performed well, as it's also been a supplement for -1 Omens, but I'm also a big fan of Negate in the main. Non-creature spells are this deck's biggest threats and having a hard counter like Negate allows you to take your opponent by surprise when they think they've played around Leak. I also like that it serves another role, like Blessed Alliance, in protecting Ojutai if you don't have Minamo in play.
2 Snapcaster Mage over 4th Wall of Omens/Kitchen Finks
This has been one of the most difficult angles to tailor, but I felt as though the additional utility via Snap was more valuable than a 4th Omens/Finks. The addition of Blessed Alliance in the main provides additional life gain support, if needed.
As for Snap, I'm testing the waters with 1-2 since I don't want to deviate too far from the formula that works.
2 Mana Leak over 2 Spell Snare
I'm not a big fan of 4 Snares, but I understand why JB and Yuuya have stuck to them in this deck. They serve multiple purposes, such as countering numerous 2 cmc threats (Tarmogoyf, Blighted Agent, Snapcaster Mage), counters (Remand, Mana Leak, Negate), and others (Terminate, Cranial Plating, Sylvan Scrying). Without Snap or draw power, 4 Snares makes sense. In UW, it's a versatile, efficient, and powerful spell.
That being said, I think having 2 Snap allows me to play 1-2 less Snare, which gave me the opportunity to include 2 Mana Leak. Mana Leak is solid for countering problematic creatures and spells between T2 to 5 or so and is better alongside Remand and Snap. It's also solid at stressing mana and forcing tap-out. 2 feels just right in a list that doesn't want to see it beyond T6.
1 Jace, Architect of Thought over 3rd Cryptic Command
I think 2-3 CC is where you want to be here, but with the meta being more aggressive and Lingering Souls seeing play across more decks, I think Jace, AoT earns a spot over 3rd CC. Because I play 2 Snaps, I find 3rd CC less necessary. Jace, AoT curves beautifully after Omens/Finks, stabilizes, and allows me to dig. He's basically like my 3rd Dragonlord Ojutai in regards to his -2 ability.
1 Gideon Jura over 1 Sun Titan
I love Sun Titan, but this is a more aggressive and unforgiving meta than the one Yuuya and JB played in. I basically cut it to include Gideon Jura, which is what JB2002's lists have had alongside Ojutai and Titan. Gideon Jura is exceptional post-Verdict. In this meta filled with many creature decks, Gideon Jura is powerful and can even cause issues for Infect.
1 Cavern of Souls over 4th Celestial Colonnade
This deck has a high curve and having mana open by T4 and 5 is important for Resto/CC/Verdict/Ojutai/Gideon. Since this deck has high threat density, I don't think 4 Colonnade is necessary. Also important to note is that Colonnade is a T6+ play. Having a variety of threats actually works in Colonnade's favor as there will likely be less removal for them when they're ready to block or swing.
I chose to go with 1 Cavern of Souls over 4th Colonnade and it's been fantastic. Even hitting a Caverned T3 Finks can cause issues for Jeskai/Nahiri or U Moon. Its main purpose is to get Resto, Ojutai, and Geist through counters and apply game-winning pressure.
- Sideboard Updates -
The most notable change is Geist of Saint Traft. I tried Aven Mindcensor, but its best MU's were Tron (but not as good as when it played Eye of Ugin), Scapeshift, and Eldritch Moon/Chord of Calling decks. Overall, it's felt a bit underwhelming as it usually dies soon after it resolves.
That's why I decided to do away with Aven and switch to Geist of Saint Traft vs Control/Combo and other decks with minimal creatures or without sweepers. I've brought Geist in vs Suicide Zoo, Burn, and even Infect. Post-Verdict, resolving a Geist can put you in a very good position.
I know Threads of Disloyalty has been a staple for JB2002 and Yuuya, but I don't think I'd run more than 2 if I decided to play it. Vs BGx, even though they play Decay, it forces them to deal with the threat you stole, which means it's one less Decay to RiP, Clique, Finks, Sphere, etc. It's solid, but I'm not going to utilize it for the time being.
- Other Thoughts -
I'm considering some other MD/SB options, which are displayed below the deck list in the link. Overall, I'm proud of its design (the most balanced between Midrange and Control to date) and performance.
I have the same feelings of you in some of your conclusion:
-I like -1 finks +1 blessed alliance.
-Aven mindscensor is underperformed when i test him.
-Negate is a great MB option
-I love that Jace AoT... i want try him... but i love 3 cryptic in our deck
-I dont like mana leak in UW midrange... but i try some copies in my next test.
-You dont miss 3 or 4 spell snare in a meta full of jund, affinity and burn?
-Agree with gideon vs titan
-I like the geist plan in SB... testing...
-If abzan becomes more popular, i was testing some sower of temptation in SB, its a nice card against them, eldrazi and toolbox decks.
I try this list in the next days.
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Modern: Jeskai control / Jeskai Geist
Death and taxes / UW control
Neo7Thinker arent you missing something to get some Cardadventege? My List is very similar to yours but i would never cut the three Ancestral Vision. Havent you any Problems with running out of Gas? You neither play Sphinx Revelation. Your only way to get Cardedvantage is with Ojutai but in my tests this was way to late.
Can you explain this to me pleas
As someone who plays the more midrange style of UW, I can take a stab at this too.
These kinds of UW lists don't try to sit back behind counters and resolve giant Sphinx's Revelations. It's all about one-for-one card advantage or using Supreme Verdict to put us ahead. In that respect, it's similar to BGx Midrange lists that try to just eek out advantage every step of the way. With things like Resto-blinking Walls, or cantripping with Cryptic, we usually have more cards than our opponent anyways.
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EDH GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG UBRNicol Bolas and his SuperfriendsPawnsUBR
Modern UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW WUBRGHumansWUBRG BGMidrangeBG
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That is why I am only playing 1 Deprive. It feels disastrous to need to bounce a land in the early game, but what I have learned from this deck is that you lean on your Supreme Verdicts to accrue value against the creature decks, so you are more willing to allow early creatures to resolve, just to catch them with the Verdict. The Deprive is only for very specific things, or to help tempo your opponent out of the game after stopping the initial rush.
They are both crucial to the mana curve and the way this deck generates card advantage. Many times I see players play this deck with Ancestral Vision and Sphinx's Revelation. The issue with AV is the time factor. You may get 3 cards 4 turns later, but you don't always have 4 turns to wait, plus in the late game you can't start getting your card advantage investment back immediately. Instead I erred to playing these various planeswalkers (Jace B, Jace AoT, Tamiyo) and the Crucible to create incremental card advantage. You will draw 3 cards over the course of the number of turns it would take to draw those cards from an ancestral. This deck wants to hit its land drops. You could either play Serum Visions (which takes up valuable slots, and makes you trim on interaction and finishers), or utilize these incremental card advantage engines. I chose to do the latter.
Wonderful. Nothing but positive things to say about this card. It can serve multiple functions. You can combine it with Crucible of Worlds and GQ to disrupt manabases, lock down large threats, and gain minor card advantage. It is also very good at tangoing with the Achilles Heel of many control decks: Man Lands. Having a GQ and a Tamiyo beats 2 Man Lands. Then moving your way to ultimate and ultimating ends the game. Straight up. I do think the card works well in tandem with the design of the deck, but you couldn't just shoehorn her into anything. You are playing her with Gideon to lock down and assassinate large threats, or protect Gideon as he tries to get larger, etc.
Dissolve is a touch slow against the tier 1 decks, but it is a card I play because of the deck's main removal spell. Path to exile provides all of your opponents additional lands, which you can not afford to be doing in a mana leak deck. Mana Leak is a much beter counter in a Grixis or Jeskai deck, because you have Bolt, Terminate, etc to kill early creatures, and aren't ramping your opponent past the most critical counterspell in your deck. I am actively avoiding Mana Leak like the plague, and having a nonconditional counterspell that also provides a small touch of card filtering has fit nicely in the deck.
Secure the Wastes is just a great card. No qualifiers. It can be a midnight haunting on turn 3 when you need some 1/1 blockers, and can provide you a good midgame threat to combine with your planeswalkers as blockers or for pressure. The issue a deck like this has is closing the game. This card ends the game. I don't ever feel like that stuff is too much, look at it from this perspective: you can easily curve out on 3, 4, 5, and 6 with the walkers, but each one of them serves a different purpose, and gains you card advantage in a different way, which is very useful for the way this deck operates.
4 Snapcaster is great. If you look at this deck, you have quite a few 1 for 1s, just like Jund, but the thing is you have many many more 2+ for 1s, which is how Jund used to be, but now Jund is basically a tempo deck, trying to play a 2 drop of choice and ride it to victory behind discard and removal. Snapcaster is the beginning of your snowball of incremental card advantage. You get to get a Spell Snare, a condemn, a blessed alliance, or whatever useful spell you have drawn and a block out of it. Which lets you live to verdict, which lets you live to your walkers.
Elixir has been alright. Occasionally it does get awkward with Snapcaster (because you may strand a Snapcaster without a spell) but the Crucible isn't a big deal. You can just play your GQ, Colonnade, Fetch, whatever you want out of your yard, then use the Elixir and fetch/GQ, and have access to it still. If you don't play carefully and aware of the situations you are sculpting, you will lose, just like any other deck. The Logic Knot is in there because of the Elixir. Once you figure out what your opponent is playing, you can Logic Knot a spell, and delve away all of the low impact cards for the given matchup, which will then raise the density of relevant cards in your deck when go through the next pass of your deck with Elixir. Playing with Elixir is all about reading and recognizing what is going on, and what end game situations you are sculpting.
I hope that helped!
HAve a good day!
Personally i think Sphinx is way better than AV in UW builds. I love 1-2 MD copies and i think is an underrated card generally.
Death and taxes / UW control
Has anyone been successful with uw build resembling this one, which 5-0'd league a few days ago?
xuder (5-0)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Restoration Angel
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spell Queller
2 Spellskite
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wall of Omens
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Condemn
2 Cryptic Command
1 Deprive
1 Negate
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
4 Flooded Strand
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tectonic Edge
60 Cards
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Celestial Purge
2 Dispel
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Timely Reinforcements
I've got a a few matches in and it seems pretty reasonable, though I'm going to eventually put serum visions in it...that's the way it often goes anyway.
I purposely decided to focus on beating the hyper aggro decks (suicide zoo, burn, infect, go wide decks) as I felt those were the most popular in the brazilian metagame; however, I got it a bit wrong, as the meta was extremely varied. In the PPTQ, I went 5-2, losing to Mardu Planeswalkers (0-2) and RW Moon (1-2; dude had blood moon turn 2 on the first game and turn 1 on the third, both times on the play) and beating Burning-Tree Zoo twice (both times 2-0), Infect (2-0), Dredge (2-1) and Jund. On the WMCQ, I went 5-1-1, losing to Titanshift (1-2) and drawing with Grixis Delver to top 8. I beat Infect (2-1), RW Moon (2-0, no godhands from him this time), UW Control Mirror (1-0), Merfolk (2-0) and Jund (2-1). In the quarterfinals, I lost two quick games to Bant Eldrazi - a good matchup, but sometimes they can start on turn 2 with Thought-Knot and curve from there in a way that feels like Eldrazi Winter never really left.
After the events, I gotta say that I found Serum Visions to be the best card in the deck, followed closely by Path and Snap. Jace is great against non-interactive decks, but if you want him to be a relible card advantage engine, you have to couple him with Ojutai's (or Kolaghan's) command; the best surprise of the weekend was just how strong Blessed Alliance was, both working as a way to recover life and dealing with hard to remove creatures. Overall, I feel like UW is a deck that can be tuned to beat anything, but doesn't really have the objective power level to simply "jund 'em out" in an unknown metagame. That's why I think there's so much variance on well placing lists - we don't have tarmogoyfs and lilianas, but we do have a ton of flexible, powerful options of disruption and many card advantage engines. This way, if a UW player can accurately predict the broadstrokes of a metagame, he can tune his list to great success.
BURGrixis ControlBUR
BURGrixis DelverBUR (RIP)
UWBEsper GiftsUWB
UWUW Jace ControlUW
GUBSultai ControlGUB
UBTezzeret Agent of BolasUB
How you feel baby jace without O. Command? you want cut them in your next list or put an Command.
Death and taxes / UW control
I definitely think blessed alliance has a place in the list. That card has been nothing but gas for me. At the minimum it just kills an attacking creature. At best it blows boggles and infect out of the game, let's you three for one off the sac and fogs a fourth creature you let through. That card single handedly turned my boggle and infect matchup into heavily favored.
Plus like you said with ojutai you can just counter a removal spell which is cool.
I think I'm taking out Jace VP. I also feel the metagame will get slightly less linear, so I'm thinking of replacing him with a Jace Beleren and maybe a think twice or another card draw spell.
Ojutais command was pretty lackluster as well. I counter-drew a couple times which is always nice but otherwise it was a dead card pretty frequently.
Dragonlord ojutai was the bomb. I rode the Dragonlord train to victory every game I won. Sphinx's revelation was decent. I'm not sure if I like it more than ancestral vision but it wasn't bad.
I definitely think a list of two Dragonlords, finks, resto, clique and walls is a much smoother and more resilient threat base.
I don't know how running a two mana bad looter that synergizes terribly with counters and a four mana spell that can't hit combos is supposed to improve your combo matchups. You could just run clocks and better counters instead.
Speaking of which geist of saint traft has been really clutch out of the sideboard against combo decks and controlish deck that don't have a lot of crap to throw in front of him.
Jace looks for answers, flips and may stall the board or take huge value recasting spells like ojutai's command or paths.
BTW: you say "Resto and CLIQUE are extaclty what you want to be doing in combo matchups" and this deck is running 2 Cliques main and 1 Side with a Resto.
I dont mean Baby Jace is insane, but I dont think it is as bad as you supose it is. Also, in any moment we were able to know which matchups did you find. There's no surprise on it being actively bad against burn where it dies to searing blaze so badly achieving nothing. (well burn is a good matchup in general for UW, but the value of jace there is pretty low)
BURGrixis ControlBUR
BURGrixis DelverBUR (RIP)
UWBEsper GiftsUWB
UWUW Jace ControlUW
GUBSultai ControlGUB
UBTezzeret Agent of BolasUB
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BiBs4qfq2Y8MqZrHTfANF_b3FPfulp1IMPiPHdTsD0E
The following data is composed of the top 5 most recent UW Midrange decks within the past 6 months that are based off of Yuuya Watanabe and Junichiro Bando's (JB2002) versions of the archetype. The side-by-side comparison is designed to provide an analysis of the deck's most common cards between the main and side. This information can be utilized as a guideline to understand its core design philosophy when developing and optimizing this version of UW Midrange.
Note: The parenthesis indicates the total counters.
This data will also be included in the UW Midrange Control Primer.
MTG Modern - Competitive: UWx Midrange/Control
Facebook.com/ModernUWxControl
MTG Modern - Competitive: UWx Midrange/Control Community
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Great job Neo7hinker!!!
Some random apreciation of my experience + this list:
1)Dragonlord Ojutai is the real deal.
2)All the list run 4 finks, my list run 3 and i allways feel that i need one more...
3)Elspeth can be a good card in MB in this meta.
4)Gideon is still great in UW.
5)IDK if Revelation is what we want (i love the card but maybe in this meta elspeth is simply a better big wincon for UW midrange).
6)We don´t need serum visions.
7)Detention sphere is still viable (i cut to 1 after nahiri decks).
8)2 negate in SB is the correct number.
9)Glenn elendra is a great SB card.
10)IMO spreading seas dont worth the slot (MB or SB).
Death and taxes / UW control
3 Restoration Angel
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
3 Wall of Omens
Planeswalkers: 2
1 Gideon Jura
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Enchantments: 2
2 Detention Sphere
Spells: 16
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
2 Negate
2 Cryptic Command
4 Path to Exile
1 Blessed Alliance
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Flooded Strand
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Eiganjo Castle
3 Island
3 Plains
1 Mystic Gate
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Celestial Purge
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Rest in Peace
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
MTG Modern - Competitive: UWx Midrange/Control
Facebook.com/ModernUWxControl
MTG Modern - Competitive: UWx Midrange/Control Community
Facebook.com/Groups/MTGModernUWx
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Magic the Gathering: Modern Meta Masters
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Been trying out some Kaladesh cards too. Ceremonious Rejection and Fragmentize are awesome sideboard cards, especially with Snapcaster. The tempo you can gain out of them are insane. I'm really high on Filigree Familiar right now too; not sure if it's good enough to replace Finks, but I really like having 7-8 solid cantripping creatures in my list. Torrential Gearhulk I haven't actually played in a match yet, but it seems great in the BGx Midrange matchup as a bigger, badder Snapcaster.
I'm not as high on Ojutai as some of you seem to be. He just doesn't seem to do anything the turn he comes into play, which seems subpar in this meta. Now I could be misguided, but I've been having luck with Baneslayer Angel and some other collection of threats in that slot instead.
Also, Perilous Research is a card I stumbled upon and has been doing well in testing. Turns into a 2 mana draw 3 with Familiar, and has cool synergy with Detention Sphere and Finks, random chaff like Wall of Omens, and not to mention gives us extra usage for times when we are flooding. I've been running it as a 2-of and prolly wouldn't go higher.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG
I agree on most of your points. Ojutai is absolute gas. Having an ojutai and minamo on the field feels unlosable. Even connecting once with him puts you so far ahead. To the guy who said ojutai never does anything: are you waiting to swing with him until you have protection? The power of him is that if you can't protect him from removal you can just not attack.
As for your point about two negates sideboard, how many do you run main deck? I've been running two in the main and I never struggle to find targets. They get cut maybe a third of the time but I've been super happy with them main deck.
I've been trying revelation and it's been okay. I think I like AV better as a card draw spell, but you can run two sphinx's in place of three AV and I really value having more slots main board. I'm terms of what I want to be doing with six mana Elspeth is definitely better. I still leave her in the side due to her slowness but when she is good she wins the game outright.
Also shoutout to Gideon being the man. One of main board is definitely the right amount but there are so many games where he hits the board and there's no losing from that point.
Been trying a fun of moorland haunt in place of a ghost quarter. I only played a few games but I've been happy with it so far. Buys so much time against aggro.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/476197#paper
Updates: 10/12/16
MD:
SB:
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Timely Reinforcements
Testing Results: 10/11/16
Record: 3-2
Bant Eldrazi: 0-2
G Stompy: 2-1
Jund: 2-1
Zooicide: 2-0
CoCo Elves: 1-2
Testing Results: 10/10/16
Record: 5-0
Bant Eldrazi: 2-0
Infect: 2-1
Jeskai Nahiri: 2-0
Jeskai Moon: 2-1
RG Eldrazi Ramp: 2-1
Top 5 Options as of 10/12/16 -
1-2 Engineered Explosives
2-3 Ancestral Vision/Serum Visions
2 Runed Halo
1-2 Surgical Extraction
1-2 Condemn
- Maindeck Updates: 10/11/16 -
10/11/16: 2 Negate > 2 Remand
Remand has performed well, as it's also been a supplement for -1 Omens, but I'm also a big fan of Negate in the main. Non-creature spells are this deck's biggest threats and having a hard counter like Negate allows you to take your opponent by surprise when they think they've played around Leak. I also like that it serves another role, like Blessed Alliance, in protecting Ojutai if you don't have Minamo in play.
2 Snapcaster Mage over 4th Wall of Omens/Kitchen Finks
This has been one of the most difficult angles to tailor, but I felt as though the additional utility via Snap was more valuable than a 4th Omens/Finks. The addition of Blessed Alliance in the main provides additional life gain support, if needed.
As for Snap, I'm testing the waters with 1-2 since I don't want to deviate too far from the formula that works.
2 Mana Leak over 2 Spell Snare
I'm not a big fan of 4 Snares, but I understand why JB and Yuuya have stuck to them in this deck. They serve multiple purposes, such as countering numerous 2 cmc threats (Tarmogoyf, Blighted Agent, Snapcaster Mage), counters (Remand, Mana Leak, Negate), and others (Terminate, Cranial Plating, Sylvan Scrying). Without Snap or draw power, 4 Snares makes sense. In UW, it's a versatile, efficient, and powerful spell.
That being said, I think having 2 Snap allows me to play 1-2 less Snare, which gave me the opportunity to include 2 Mana Leak. Mana Leak is solid for countering problematic creatures and spells between T2 to 5 or so and is better alongside Remand and Snap. It's also solid at stressing mana and forcing tap-out. 2 feels just right in a list that doesn't want to see it beyond T6.
1 Jace, Architect of Thought over 3rd Cryptic Command
I think 2-3 CC is where you want to be here, but with the meta being more aggressive and Lingering Souls seeing play across more decks, I think Jace, AoT earns a spot over 3rd CC. Because I play 2 Snaps, I find 3rd CC less necessary. Jace, AoT curves beautifully after Omens/Finks, stabilizes, and allows me to dig. He's basically like my 3rd Dragonlord Ojutai in regards to his -2 ability.
1 Gideon Jura over 1 Sun Titan
I love Sun Titan, but this is a more aggressive and unforgiving meta than the one Yuuya and JB played in. I basically cut it to include Gideon Jura, which is what JB2002's lists have had alongside Ojutai and Titan. Gideon Jura is exceptional post-Verdict. In this meta filled with many creature decks, Gideon Jura is powerful and can even cause issues for Infect.
1 Cavern of Souls over 4th Celestial Colonnade
This deck has a high curve and having mana open by T4 and 5 is important for Resto/CC/Verdict/Ojutai/Gideon. Since this deck has high threat density, I don't think 4 Colonnade is necessary. Also important to note is that Colonnade is a T6+ play. Having a variety of threats actually works in Colonnade's favor as there will likely be less removal for them when they're ready to block or swing.
I chose to go with 1 Cavern of Souls over 4th Colonnade and it's been fantastic. Even hitting a Caverned T3 Finks can cause issues for Jeskai/Nahiri or U Moon. Its main purpose is to get Resto, Ojutai, and Geist through counters and apply game-winning pressure.
- Sideboard Updates -
The most notable change is Geist of Saint Traft. I tried Aven Mindcensor, but its best MU's were Tron (but not as good as when it played Eye of Ugin), Scapeshift, and Eldritch Moon/Chord of Calling decks. Overall, it's felt a bit underwhelming as it usually dies soon after it resolves.
That's why I decided to do away with Aven and switch to Geist of Saint Traft vs Control/Combo and other decks with minimal creatures or without sweepers. I've brought Geist in vs Suicide Zoo, Burn, and even Infect. Post-Verdict, resolving a Geist can put you in a very good position.
I know Threads of Disloyalty has been a staple for JB2002 and Yuuya, but I don't think I'd run more than 2 if I decided to play it. Vs BGx, even though they play Decay, it forces them to deal with the threat you stole, which means it's one less Decay to RiP, Clique, Finks, Sphere, etc. It's solid, but I'm not going to utilize it for the time being.
- Other Thoughts -
I'm considering some other MD/SB options, which are displayed below the deck list in the link. Overall, I'm proud of its design (the most balanced between Midrange and Control to date) and performance.
Feedback and suggestions are appreciated.
Thank you!
3 Restoration Angel
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
3 Wall of Omens
Planeswalkers: 2
1 Gideon Jura
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Enchantments: 2
2 Detention Sphere
Spells: 16
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
2 Negate
2 Cryptic Command
4 Path to Exile
1 Blessed Alliance
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Flooded Strand
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Eiganjo Castle
3 Island
3 Plains
1 Mystic Gate
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Celestial Purge
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Rest in Peace
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
MTG Modern - Competitive: UWx Midrange/Control
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I have the same feelings of you in some of your conclusion:
-I like -1 finks +1 blessed alliance.
-Aven mindscensor is underperformed when i test him.
-Negate is a great MB option
-I love that Jace AoT... i want try him... but i love 3 cryptic in our deck
-I dont like mana leak in UW midrange... but i try some copies in my next test.
-You dont miss 3 or 4 spell snare in a meta full of jund, affinity and burn?
-Agree with gideon vs titan
-I like the geist plan in SB... testing...
-If abzan becomes more popular, i was testing some sower of temptation in SB, its a nice card against them, eldrazi and toolbox decks.
I try this list in the next days.
Death and taxes / UW control
As someone who plays the more midrange style of UW, I can take a stab at this too.
These kinds of UW lists don't try to sit back behind counters and resolve giant Sphinx's Revelations. It's all about one-for-one card advantage or using Supreme Verdict to put us ahead. In that respect, it's similar to BGx Midrange lists that try to just eek out advantage every step of the way. With things like Resto-blinking Walls, or cantripping with Cryptic, we usually have more cards than our opponent anyways.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
UWUW Control/Midrange/Bad JundUW
WUBRGHumansWUBRG
BGMidrangeBG