It’s fetchable, unlike glacial fortress. And if we have two basics there is no reason to not fetch a dual. It gives us more colored mana. Plains plains island let’s us snap path. Plains stream island let’s us snap path or snap opt. In a deck with so many basics I see no treason to not run it over the second hallowed fountain.
Because it plays way more strange with Celestial Collonade than Hallowed Fountain. There is a non-zero number of games where your 7 contains something like Collonade, Hallowed Fountain, 5 spells... which is a good keep, if you have an Opt or a Search for Azcanta. With Prairie Stream this hand is so much worse that you might just lose because you can't curve out well enough.
I think it does a way better Tundra impression than it does an Hallowed Fountain. Meaning that I'd rather budget my deck into Prarie Stream in legacy than try to get all cute and trade a Fountain for it in Modern.
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I just noticed that spirits meta % is going way down since it has a bad match-up with phoenix. This is really good for us since spirits can be pretty tough from the U/W side. It also seems like humans has been creeping back up a bit. We should likely pay a little less respect to selfless spirit and plan for more meddling mage.
It’s fetchable, unlike glacial fortress. And if we have two basics there is no reason to not fetch a dual. It gives us more colored mana. Plains plains island let’s us snap path. Plains stream island let’s us snap path or snap opt. In a deck with so many basics I see no treason to not run it over the second hallowed fountain.
That fact that it is fetchable isn't highly relevant because 99% of the time when you already have two basics in play fetching another basic will unlock all of your colored needs; Island Island Plains lets you have both snap-opt, snap-path as well.
The main downside is that it always ETB tapped before turn 3 and often even later considering most lists will be running a minimum of 9 non-fetch non-basics. This is a huge downside considering that UW's major weakness is the early game.
If you don't want to run a second Hallowed Fountain then just run 1 fetchable dual - I played that configuration for almost a year and it was completely fine, I think I missed having a second fetchable dual less than half a dozen times in a year's worth of games.
The maindeck relic of progenitus' seem to be the new tech online. Pretty sure I still like the 2 snaps and 1 clique in the main along with 3 or 4 relics. It's a crappy cantrip that makes snap worse, logic knot and Azcanta not worth playing, but it can really wreck a lot of the other decks that you usually lose game 1's to. UW is moving up on the list of % of the meta pretty fast lately.
Went 4-0 last week at FNM with UW, made from a slightly modified list off of MTGGoldfish. Me and a friend were looking over my list, and neither one of us could figure out what MU causes the 1 of Ancestral to come in from the side.
Any tips on when I should be boarding in the AV?
My MU were as follows, btw : Round 1- soulflayer surprise, went 1-0-1, sencond game went to time since g1 took so long, boarded in 3 RiP and 2 surgical, boarded out some counters and timely.
Round 2 - jank build of living end, went 2-0-0, same boarding plan as above, but left in timely and only brought in 2 RiP and 2 surgical.
Round 3 - UW mill, went 2-1-0, lost g2 due to mill, opp scooped g1 to t4 GoT emblem, boarded out some card draw and brought in more counters.
Round 4 - UR phoenix, 1-0-1, g1 got grindy and my card advantage plus seeing 2 or 3 terminus let me power through with CC beats. Game 2 went to turns, and had I had 1 more turn I would've won with CC again. Boarded in 2 RiP and 2 surgicals, boarded out GQ, negate, clique, and I think an opt. Probably should've left in the clique to have another clock, but I figured it doesn't trade well with their threats. I also had a RiP in hand most of g2, since I got his pheonixes on his t4 when he tapped out to flashback looting, and I had surgical at the ready.
In all the matches where I left it in, timely reinforcements was a powerhouse, usually giving me both effects.
In all, the deck performed exceedingly well for me, especially as it was my first outing with it, having gotten the final pieces on Thursday.
Just not sure when the AV comes in, but I put it in the side since a lot of lists have it as a 1 of, either main or side.
@slowgod - The maindeck gravehate has been interesting to test and watch develop. Nassif has been running a single Surgical Extraction in the main because he says he hates Relic of Progenitus and it allows him to still run snapcaster, logic knot and azcanta. It looked pretty good every time he cast it but it doesn't feel right to me. I wonder if it might be worthwhile to test out Nihil Spellbomb; a light black splash to facilitate the cantrip effect would be very easy to include and the fact that you don't have to have mana open to activate it will make it much harder for the opponent to play around versus Relic. The most obvious upside is that it doesn't effect our own yard either which allows the ability to still run Azcanta and Logic knot. My guess is that it's not worth it, but I would consider testing it.
@anubis1369 - AV is for matchups where card quantity matters - You bring it in against decks that are casting Cryptic Command or Thoughtseize mostly. There are some other random midrange decks that you might want to bring it in against as well like variants on Taxes
I apologize if this belongs in the Esper Control thread, but if baleful strix were to get printed in modern horizons would we want to become Esper Control?
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I apologize if this belongs in the Esper Control thread, but if baleful strix were to get printed in modern horizons would we want to become Esper Control?
They are different decks - people will still play UW and people will play esper. Seems like the thing you really want to know is if Strix makes Esper better, and that question definitely belongs in the esper forum. It's kind of like going into the Esper forum and asking them if they become Dimir Control if strix is printed. They are all different decks.
I was really hoping the UW countersquall was just going to be gain 2 life rather than can't be countered.
As is, the double color requirement is a real downside over negate and the can't be countered clause isn't going to be relevant in 90% of matchups. This card is basically at it's best in the mirror where veto has an edge if one player is on negate.
I'm more excited and out the new teferi if the leaks are real: 1UW 4 loyalty. static ability: opponents can only cast spells at sorcery speed. +1 you can cast sorceries as though they had flash until your next turn -3 bounce a creature, artifact or enchantment and draw a card. It seems more tempo-ish than control but it's strong enough I think that we can definitely play a copy or two.
The Veto is really good for the mirrors and against Ux decks. This card probably makes Dispel worse and makes Remand better. It's a strict upgrade over Negate and there's no reason to not play it over Negate. UW is pretty much the same as U1 for strict UW... With that being said, playing with FoR makes that there's a bigger than zero chance for us to be color screwed but those hands probably shouldn't be a keep in the first place.
The new Teferi fills the role of GoTrials... It's great against spell based combo decks and it's fine on the Mirror. IMHO I think it's too cute and it doesn't answer a problem we currently have.
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I see Teferi replacing ancestral visions in my sideboard. It’s control hate as well as combo hate that can buy back snappy and clique and do shenanigans with detention sphere. Veto is just going to replace negate
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Interesting that you guys find the new teferi (which is now confirmed) to be better vs control and combo. I think it's actually better vs creature decks; the -3 is absolutely absurd against creatures - the Hallmark of good walkers have always been that they have the ability to protect themselves and the ability to draw cards this does both on the same turn. For 3 Mana. The +1 and the static ability are mediocre against creature decks but still nice to have and that initial tempo boost from the -3 is exactly what we want.
Vs control and combo it's more of an easier to kill enchantment than a planeswalker since you won't really be drawing cards off of it.
I think it does actually solve problems for us,it gives us an early game proactive plan, which is something we don't have outside of Azcanta and Azcanta doesn't impact the board.
Interesting that you guys find the new teferi (which is now confirmed) to be better vs control and combo. I think it's actually better vs creature decks; the -3 is absolutely absurd against creatures - the Hallmark of good walkers have always been that they have the ability to protect themselves and the ability to draw cards this does both on the same turn. For 3 Mana. The +1 and the static ability are mediocre against creature decks but still nice to have and that initial tempo boost from the -3 is exactly what we want.
Vs control and combo it's more of an easier to kill enchantment than a planeswalker since you won't really be drawing cards off of it.
I think it does actually solve problems for us,it gives us an early game proactive plan, which is something we don't have outside of Azcanta and Azcanta doesn't impact the board.
The way modern is... if you drop it on 3 and minus it will just die to a sneeze. You won't get to untap with it. If you want a 3 mana bounce with cycle that gains you 2/3 life it's fine. I don't think we're in the market for that. Against Combo/Control is when he shines because you really tax their ability to answer your gameplan. If you resolve this Teferi and untap with it against Combo/Control you'll hardly lose that match. The issue is that he does nothing against Aggro/Creature Combo, he just instantly melts.
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Liliana of the veil also goes down to 1 loyalty, dying to a sneeze as you put it. Both walkers deal with a threat and get a cards worth of value. And both of them are very good against opposing control and combo decks using their non-minus abilities. The difference between them is that teferi hits more permanent types the turn it enters whereas Lilly has an actual ultimate. However I think the fact that teferi doesn't have a real ultimate isn't a huge deal because UW generally has inevitably going late over most decks.
Another reason why Tef is really good in creature matchups is that it curves into verdict.
It also has a lot of nice synergies if you wanted to switch off terminus and opt to serum and verdict. Which is nice.
I don't know if UW can utilize it quite as well as Esper though. Thoughtseize/Inquisition in the draw step is pretty absurd. So is instant speed lingering souls.
That's the reason why LoTV isn't that widely played right now. It's on an all time low. I play GDS as well and I don't ever consider playing it unless there's Bogles in the meta. (With the new Edict I'll play the Edict before playing LoTV).
LoTV is still played on BGx because of the way the deck operates. It deals with the hand and the board with discard and removal on turns 1/2 and then deploys Liliana. UW Control, plays a tap land into a path. It's not really the same as BGx.
UW on turn 3 usually faces a more developed board than BGx decks, that's why Teferi -2 leaves him way more vulnerable than LoTV does.
On the vacuum it looks like it's the same but the way the decks actually operate really changes the way the card ends up positioned.
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I definitely agree that the way the deck operates changes the way it's positioned, but I think that's fine based off the sheer power level of the card alone. I just don't think Teferi needs to survive very often against creature decks to make it a good play because of how much tempo it gains. UWs problems have always revolved around the mana-spent disadvantage in the early game and the bounce+draw really helps there.
I also agree that UW decks face more developed boards on T3 than BGx, Fatal Push and Discard definitely help that a lot, which is why I think Esper can utilize Teferi better. There are ways to combat that though, Tef3 makes cards like Oust so much better, not just because it helps develop that ideal board state for a turn 3 walker but because of the synergies with Tef3's +1 as well.
What do you guys think of Gideon's Triumph as well? 1W Instant - target opponent sacs a creature that attacked or blocked this turn. If you control a gideon they sac 2 instead. It's just a variant on Blessed Alliance I guess, which doesn't see a ton of play. You give up the ability to gain life for the ability to hit a blocker. Probably the life gain is more relevant. I think if you're playing gideon and snapcaster the 2nd creature sac may come up in rare instances as well.
I definitely agree that the way the deck operates changes the way it's positioned, but I think that's fine based off the sheer power level of the card alone. I just don't think Teferi needs to survive very often against creature decks to make it a good play because of how much tempo it gains. UWs problems have always revolved around the mana-spent disadvantage in the early game and the bounce+draw really helps there.
I also agree that UW decks face more developed boards on T3 than BGx, Fatal Push and Discard definitely help that a lot, which is why I think Esper can utilize Teferi better. There are ways to combat that though, Tef3 makes cards like Oust so much better, not just because it helps develop that ideal board state for a turn 3 walker but because of the synergies with Tef3's +1 as well.
What do you guys think of Gideon's Triumph as well? 1W Instant - target opponent sacs a creature that attacked or blocked this turn. If you control a gideon they sac 2 instead. It's just a variant on Blessed Alliance I guess, which doesn't see a ton of play. You give up the ability to gain life for the ability to hit a blocker. Probably the life gain is more relevant. I think if you're playing gideon and snapcaster the 2nd creature sac may come up in rare instances as well.
The real gem of Gid's Triump is letting you cast it after combat damage is dealt (like eot) instead of during combat. With the others, you have to commit during combat (you can always Condemn, for example, in end of combat against Infect after damage has been dealt to avoid getting blown out by protection spell/Dispel/Pierce), but this will let you cast the effect eot to hold up counter.
I think it does a way better Tundra impression than it does an Hallowed Fountain. Meaning that I'd rather budget my deck into Prarie Stream in legacy than try to get all cute and trade a Fountain for it in Modern.
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I saw another U/W list top 8 a pretty big SCG event with 0X terminus, 2X settle the wreckage, 2X supreme verdict, and 3Xrelic of progenitus maindeck. I like where this list is going and seems like a good fit for the meta.
That fact that it is fetchable isn't highly relevant because 99% of the time when you already have two basics in play fetching another basic will unlock all of your colored needs; Island Island Plains lets you have both snap-opt, snap-path as well.
The main downside is that it always ETB tapped before turn 3 and often even later considering most lists will be running a minimum of 9 non-fetch non-basics. This is a huge downside considering that UW's major weakness is the early game.
If you don't want to run a second Hallowed Fountain then just run 1 fetchable dual - I played that configuration for almost a year and it was completely fine, I think I missed having a second fetchable dual less than half a dozen times in a year's worth of games.
Any tips on when I should be boarding in the AV?
My MU were as follows, btw : Round 1- soulflayer surprise, went 1-0-1, sencond game went to time since g1 took so long, boarded in 3 RiP and 2 surgical, boarded out some counters and timely.
Round 2 - jank build of living end, went 2-0-0, same boarding plan as above, but left in timely and only brought in 2 RiP and 2 surgical.
Round 3 - UW mill, went 2-1-0, lost g2 due to mill, opp scooped g1 to t4 GoT emblem, boarded out some card draw and brought in more counters.
Round 4 - UR phoenix, 1-0-1, g1 got grindy and my card advantage plus seeing 2 or 3 terminus let me power through with CC beats. Game 2 went to turns, and had I had 1 more turn I would've won with CC again. Boarded in 2 RiP and 2 surgicals, boarded out GQ, negate, clique, and I think an opt. Probably should've left in the clique to have another clock, but I figured it doesn't trade well with their threats. I also had a RiP in hand most of g2, since I got his pheonixes on his t4 when he tapped out to flashback looting, and I had surgical at the ready.
In all the matches where I left it in, timely reinforcements was a powerhouse, usually giving me both effects.
In all, the deck performed exceedingly well for me, especially as it was my first outing with it, having gotten the final pieces on Thursday.
Just not sure when the AV comes in, but I put it in the side since a lot of lists have it as a 1 of, either main or side.
@anubis1369 - AV is for matchups where card quantity matters - You bring it in against decks that are casting Cryptic Command or Thoughtseize mostly. There are some other random midrange decks that you might want to bring it in against as well like variants on Taxes
They are different decks - people will still play UW and people will play esper. Seems like the thing you really want to know is if Strix makes Esper better, and that question definitely belongs in the esper forum. It's kind of like going into the Esper forum and asking them if they become Dimir Control if strix is printed. They are all different decks.
As is, the double color requirement is a real downside over negate and the can't be countered clause isn't going to be relevant in 90% of matchups. This card is basically at it's best in the mirror where veto has an edge if one player is on negate.
I'm more excited and out the new teferi if the leaks are real: 1UW 4 loyalty. static ability: opponents can only cast spells at sorcery speed. +1 you can cast sorceries as though they had flash until your next turn -3 bounce a creature, artifact or enchantment and draw a card. It seems more tempo-ish than control but it's strong enough I think that we can definitely play a copy or two.
The new Teferi fills the role of GoTrials... It's great against spell based combo decks and it's fine on the Mirror. IMHO I think it's too cute and it doesn't answer a problem we currently have.
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RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
Vs control and combo it's more of an easier to kill enchantment than a planeswalker since you won't really be drawing cards off of it.
I think it does actually solve problems for us,it gives us an early game proactive plan, which is something we don't have outside of Azcanta and Azcanta doesn't impact the board.
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RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
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Another reason why Tef is really good in creature matchups is that it curves into verdict.
It also has a lot of nice synergies if you wanted to switch off terminus and opt to serum and verdict. Which is nice.
I don't know if UW can utilize it quite as well as Esper though. Thoughtseize/Inquisition in the draw step is pretty absurd. So is instant speed lingering souls.
I think the new teferi has a lot of potential.
LoTV is still played on BGx because of the way the deck operates. It deals with the hand and the board with discard and removal on turns 1/2 and then deploys Liliana. UW Control, plays a tap land into a path. It's not really the same as BGx.
UW on turn 3 usually faces a more developed board than BGx decks, that's why Teferi -2 leaves him way more vulnerable than LoTV does.
On the vacuum it looks like it's the same but the way the decks actually operate really changes the way the card ends up positioned.
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RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
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EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I also agree that UW decks face more developed boards on T3 than BGx, Fatal Push and Discard definitely help that a lot, which is why I think Esper can utilize Teferi better. There are ways to combat that though, Tef3 makes cards like Oust so much better, not just because it helps develop that ideal board state for a turn 3 walker but because of the synergies with Tef3's +1 as well.
What do you guys think of Gideon's Triumph as well? 1W Instant - target opponent sacs a creature that attacked or blocked this turn. If you control a gideon they sac 2 instead. It's just a variant on Blessed Alliance I guess, which doesn't see a ton of play. You give up the ability to gain life for the ability to hit a blocker. Probably the life gain is more relevant. I think if you're playing gideon and snapcaster the 2nd creature sac may come up in rare instances as well.
The real gem of Gid's Triump is letting you cast it after combat damage is dealt (like eot) instead of during combat. With the others, you have to commit during combat (you can always Condemn, for example, in end of combat against Infect after damage has been dealt to avoid getting blown out by protection spell/Dispel/Pierce), but this will let you cast the effect eot to hold up counter.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.