Serum Visions is just as good at setting up miracles as Opt, and even better if you're running it in addition to Opt/Illumination. Serum visions has the benefit of giving you information about how your next turn or 2 looks in advance, which is such a massive upside over opt in a deck that runs 10-13 sorcery speed cards and when you don't find the terminus, which is the vast majority of the time. Serum is also better at finding sideboard cards and digging for specific answers.
Opt is only better in very limited spots - when you have an active Jace because it doesn't allow you the powerful line of setting up miracles on the opponents turn. Or when you keep a 2 land hand and draw into opt on turn 3.
I know it's not a popular opinion, but imo Serum is actually just way better than Opt. If you select for lists that are winning events higher in profile than competitive 5-0 lists, you will see that 2-3 serum visions is stock. I personally err the other way with 4 Serum and 2-3 Opt.
Hm my list might just have too much spice.. I'm running Entreat, Crucible, Settle, and Timely main. Do people not run sweepers main anymore?
I ocasionally run those as well... Not Entreat, I've decided to cut it for the 2nd Vendilion Clique. I still play the 5th sweeper on the maindeck. I change between Supreme and Settle depending on the expected metagame.
Serum Visions is just as good at setting up miracles as Opt, and even better if you're running it in addition to Opt/Illumination. Serum visions has the benefit of giving you information about how your next turn or 2 looks in advance, which is such a massive upside over opt in a deck that runs 10-13 sorcery speed cards and when you don't find the terminus, which is the vast majority of the time. Serum is also better at finding sideboard cards and digging for specific answers.
Opt is only better in very limited spots - when you have an active Jace because it doesn't allow you the powerful line of setting up miracles on the opponents turn. Or when you keep a 2 land hand and draw into opt on turn 3.
I know it's not a popular opinion, but imo Serum is actually just way better than Opt. If you select for lists that are winning events higher in profile than competitive 5-0 lists, you will see that 2-3 serum visions is stock. I personally err the other way with 4 Serum and 2-3 Opt.
If you look at the "most successful" people you'll also see that mamy players are flocking to UWR (Brad Nelson's and friends school of thought) which I don't think there's an incentive for and it's objectively wrong.
Hi guys! What do you think right now of the old classic UW control list (non miracles)? 4 spreading seas, supreme verdict can be quite good in the post-ban meta where grixis shadow is rising back. Any thoughts?
Verdict is good against Shadow for sure, and against Storm and maybe even Burn so it's close in my opinion, and I don't think switching from Verdict to Terminus would make or break the deck.
Seas on the other hand is not good right now, the meta is too fast. Sure it's good against Shadow, but we are already good against Shadow, especially if you end up switching from Terminus to Verdict.
The major problem is that the verdict + seas build is about 0% to beat spirits.
Phoenix, humans, dredge, scales, and hollow one are also not made easier by playing verdict over terminus, or putting cards like spreading seas in your deck.
Jund moving to straight GB is also not very appealing to a seas plan.
DLO doesnt set up terminus. It puts a card into your hand (not draws) and puts the rest on the bottom.
Generally speaking angels are a better choice for sideboard creature since you care less about the hexproof and more about the lifegain.
Is terminus/sweepers even good right now? Looking at the popular decks it's good against what, Dredge? And medium against Humans and Spirits? Should we be running sweepers at all? Could we just run extra Snaps, condemns and a second timely main maybe? I think we'd be giving up the dredge match but we gotta improve everywhere across the board otherwise, right?
Terminus is extremely medium vs humans.
Before terminus solidified itself as the sweeper option of choice, humans had problems because they didn't know what to name with meddling mage. Now, they just slam it on terminus all day, not to mention freebooter ruining terminus's day.
Against spirits, mausoleum wanderer can also be a huge pain for terminus, especially if they have lords in play (the situation in which you want to cast terminus).
Sometimes you get lucky with Terminus vs humans and it's fantastic, other times you get meddling maged and end up with multiple dead terminus in hand, thats like the definition of medium.
I tried playing a few games without terminus and it felt ok, but I realized it's also pretty important for the HS affinity deck, it's probably wrong to play without terminus.
Maybe you're right though, maybe I should be on Jeskai right now, some of the pros think it's better positioned. I've gotta make up my mind before next weekend though for GP toronto, and I haven't had much experience with Jeskai in the last year.
I really don't know what to play. UW with main deck grave hate (probably a surgical and a Relic), Jeskai, bant or Electro-End are my top choices right now.
You guys think 1 surgical, 1 relic could be feasible alongside 2 snaps, 0 logic knot and 0 Azcanta could be ok?
If that's how you really feel, I have no idea how UW would ever be good.
I'm not sure it is right now, that's my point. There are plenty of times when UW is good and it's not dependent on whether Terminus is great or not, in fact usually UW is better when Terminus doesn't need to be your sweeper of choice - it means that some of your worst matchups (like dredge) are not prominent in the meta. Usually UW is good when Tron and Dredge are on the decline or when fair decks are holding a large share of the meta. Some of those times Supreme Verdict is going to better than Terminus (say in a meta where dredge is low and Shadow is high). UW's strength is not Terminus, UWs strength is Path to Exile, Field of Ruins, Teferi and Celestial Colonnade.
What do you guys think of Faerie Macabre as a sideboard card? I saw it in a sideboard of Pheonix and I got to thinking about it in light of some recent experience of mine where Surgical Extraction turned out to be a mediocre choice against Pheonix; They can often Surgical their own threats in response and so our own Surgicals end up essentially being a spot removal spell. Well, Macabre does the same thing except it's always a 2 for 1 instead of a 1 for 1 and doesn't cost any life.
To be clear, I believe RIP is better against Pheonix than both macabre and surgical since it also hits the flashback on looting as well as the odd snapcaster target, but it can be too slow on the draw or if your 2nd land etbs tapped. I also think macabre is probably better vs Dredge (again, worse than RIP) in the early game since it can hit cards with different names and your opponent is more likely to have two different named relevant cards in the graveyard than 2 of the same name. In the late game this may or may not be the case since you will have hopefully landed a RIP or terminus'd a board away once or twice.
So upside over surgical:
- doesn't cost life
- better early against pheonix and dredge
Downside over surgical:
-worse going deep into a game
-Worse VS Titanshift and storm
Maybe we play all 3 GY hate since they are good against different style of decks. Surgical for Combo with splash damage on Dredge and Pheonix, Macabre for Pheonix and drege, and RIP for all 3. Maybe 2 RIP, 1 Macabre, 2 Surgical? That should really cement up the GY matchups, which are traditionally bad for us.
As a sidenote for my Bant enthusiasts, Macabre is another target for Pulse of Murasa.
It was one of the few ways that UW had to generate card advantage now we have much better options: Teferi, Azcanta and in Miracle versions, Jace.
The only thing the deck misses about Sphinx's Rev is that it gave Snapcaster Mage a round about way to be proactive in the late game. In current UW lists a Snapcaster Mage off the top when both players are in top-deck mode is basically an expensive counterspell or removal spell. It's actually for this reason that I've been playing a 1-of Depose // Deploy; it gives Snapcaster the potential to be a proactive spell while being servicable on it's own. Depose is extremely mediocre but it cycles, and Deploy is actually pretty decent. I find it's pretty good at helping setup a planeswalker since it's 2 instant speed blockers.
Anyone have any thoughts on the Faerie Macabre post above?
Hieroglyphic illumination is worth mentioning too.
Its a cantrip, its card advantage, its reasonable lategame with snapcaster mage. It doesn't gain life, but it fills a similar slot to rev.
Faerie macabre doesn't seem better than surgical in the general sense. If you're playing cards like traverse or pulse of murasa, where it specifically being a creature is relevant, thats a different story, but I wouldn't play macabre in this type of deck.
If you wanted an effect like that, tormod's crypt is probably better.
Hell, even remorseful cleric is an option.
Revelation was great when people were playing rock decks with slow clocks and trying to combo with kitchen finks, now it's too slow. The UW decks do play some top end, but it's probably just a bad teferi.
My gut is that faerie macabre is a budget version of surgical for most people, it's comically cheaper in both paper and on mtgo. Surgical is the most expensive modern card on mtgo per some goatbot's metric (not counting special/low supply cards). I could see playing it to diversify your grave hate package, so it'd be your 4th or 5th graveyard hate card, but if you need that many graveyard hate cards, UW is probably not the deck you should be playing. Snapcaster is also really strong with surgical, when you don't have RIP.
Budget isn't a factor for my considerations of Macabre and I agree with the general statement that surgical is better since it has application across more matchups.
Mostly considering it as a SB card for UR Pheonix, it's basically a double removal spell. Tormod's crypt is similar, but it gets telegraphed so you're never going to get more than 1 bird, maybe one bird and the back half of a looting if you're lucky. But maybe macabre is too narrow since it doesn't hit other GY decks as hard as it hits Pheonix.
Remorseful Cleric is probably not good enough, it's the same cost as RIP and not nearly has powerful.
What about Grafdigger's cage? Probably better vs Pheonix than Macabre while still being serviceable against dredge and Chord of Calling decks. Downside would be that it turns off Snapcaster, but that's no different than RIP I guess.
How about:
2 Surgical
2 RIP
1 Cage
Or is that too many slots for gravehate?
On other sideboard considerations, are BSA and Lyra still the powerhouses they were? Humans and Spirits are both on the decline and humans is a close match up anyways and not sure that spirits are really worth sideboarding for since the matchup is so awful anyways - hope to get lucky or dodge the match. They seem like they would be fine against Pheonix variants but I think they are just too slow there.
What do you guys think of a SB like this for a fairly stock list for GP Toronto?
Opt is only better in very limited spots - when you have an active Jace because it doesn't allow you the powerful line of setting up miracles on the opponents turn. Or when you keep a 2 land hand and draw into opt on turn 3.
I know it's not a popular opinion, but imo Serum is actually just way better than Opt. If you select for lists that are winning events higher in profile than competitive 5-0 lists, you will see that 2-3 serum visions is stock. I personally err the other way with 4 Serum and 2-3 Opt.
If you look at the "most successful" people you'll also see that mamy players are flocking to UWR (Brad Nelson's and friends school of thought) which I don't think there's an incentive for and it's objectively wrong.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
Seas on the other hand is not good right now, the meta is too fast. Sure it's good against Shadow, but we are already good against Shadow, especially if you end up switching from Terminus to Verdict.
Phoenix, humans, dredge, scales, and hollow one are also not made easier by playing verdict over terminus, or putting cards like spreading seas in your deck.
Jund moving to straight GB is also not very appealing to a seas plan.
Generally speaking angels are a better choice for sideboard creature since you care less about the hexproof and more about the lifegain.
Before terminus solidified itself as the sweeper option of choice, humans had problems because they didn't know what to name with meddling mage. Now, they just slam it on terminus all day, not to mention freebooter ruining terminus's day.
Against spirits, mausoleum wanderer can also be a huge pain for terminus, especially if they have lords in play (the situation in which you want to cast terminus).
I tried playing a few games without terminus and it felt ok, but I realized it's also pretty important for the HS affinity deck, it's probably wrong to play without terminus.
Maybe you're right though, maybe I should be on Jeskai right now, some of the pros think it's better positioned. I've gotta make up my mind before next weekend though for GP toronto, and I haven't had much experience with Jeskai in the last year.
I really don't know what to play. UW with main deck grave hate (probably a surgical and a Relic), Jeskai, bant or Electro-End are my top choices right now.
You guys think 1 surgical, 1 relic could be feasible alongside 2 snaps, 0 logic knot and 0 Azcanta could be ok?
I'm not sure it is right now, that's my point. There are plenty of times when UW is good and it's not dependent on whether Terminus is great or not, in fact usually UW is better when Terminus doesn't need to be your sweeper of choice - it means that some of your worst matchups (like dredge) are not prominent in the meta. Usually UW is good when Tron and Dredge are on the decline or when fair decks are holding a large share of the meta. Some of those times Supreme Verdict is going to better than Terminus (say in a meta where dredge is low and Shadow is high). UW's strength is not Terminus, UWs strength is Path to Exile, Field of Ruins, Teferi and Celestial Colonnade.
To be clear, I believe RIP is better against Pheonix than both macabre and surgical since it also hits the flashback on looting as well as the odd snapcaster target, but it can be too slow on the draw or if your 2nd land etbs tapped. I also think macabre is probably better vs Dredge (again, worse than RIP) in the early game since it can hit cards with different names and your opponent is more likely to have two different named relevant cards in the graveyard than 2 of the same name. In the late game this may or may not be the case since you will have hopefully landed a RIP or terminus'd a board away once or twice.
So upside over surgical:
- doesn't cost life
- better early against pheonix and dredge
Downside over surgical:
-worse going deep into a game
-Worse VS Titanshift and storm
Maybe we play all 3 GY hate since they are good against different style of decks. Surgical for Combo with splash damage on Dredge and Pheonix, Macabre for Pheonix and drege, and RIP for all 3. Maybe 2 RIP, 1 Macabre, 2 Surgical? That should really cement up the GY matchups, which are traditionally bad for us.
As a sidenote for my Bant enthusiasts, Macabre is another target for Pulse of Murasa.
It was one of the few ways that UW had to generate card advantage now we have much better options: Teferi, Azcanta and in Miracle versions, Jace.
The only thing the deck misses about Sphinx's Rev is that it gave Snapcaster Mage a round about way to be proactive in the late game. In current UW lists a Snapcaster Mage off the top when both players are in top-deck mode is basically an expensive counterspell or removal spell. It's actually for this reason that I've been playing a 1-of Depose // Deploy; it gives Snapcaster the potential to be a proactive spell while being servicable on it's own. Depose is extremely mediocre but it cycles, and Deploy is actually pretty decent. I find it's pretty good at helping setup a planeswalker since it's 2 instant speed blockers.
Anyone have any thoughts on the Faerie Macabre post above?
Its a cantrip, its card advantage, its reasonable lategame with snapcaster mage. It doesn't gain life, but it fills a similar slot to rev.
Faerie macabre doesn't seem better than surgical in the general sense. If you're playing cards like traverse or pulse of murasa, where it specifically being a creature is relevant, thats a different story, but I wouldn't play macabre in this type of deck.
If you wanted an effect like that, tormod's crypt is probably better.
Hell, even remorseful cleric is an option.
This 4 color deck went 5-2 in the modern challenge(it has 1 rev), but it just seems super greedy and could never beat a turn 1 goblin guide.
My gut is that faerie macabre is a budget version of surgical for most people, it's comically cheaper in both paper and on mtgo. Surgical is the most expensive modern card on mtgo per some goatbot's metric (not counting special/low supply cards). I could see playing it to diversify your grave hate package, so it'd be your 4th or 5th graveyard hate card, but if you need that many graveyard hate cards, UW is probably not the deck you should be playing. Snapcaster is also really strong with surgical, when you don't have RIP.
Mostly considering it as a SB card for UR Pheonix, it's basically a double removal spell. Tormod's crypt is similar, but it gets telegraphed so you're never going to get more than 1 bird, maybe one bird and the back half of a looting if you're lucky. But maybe macabre is too narrow since it doesn't hit other GY decks as hard as it hits Pheonix.
Remorseful Cleric is probably not good enough, it's the same cost as RIP and not nearly has powerful.
What about Grafdigger's cage? Probably better vs Pheonix than Macabre while still being serviceable against dredge and Chord of Calling decks. Downside would be that it turns off Snapcaster, but that's no different than RIP I guess.
How about:
2 Surgical
2 RIP
1 Cage
Or is that too many slots for gravehate?
On other sideboard considerations, are BSA and Lyra still the powerhouses they were? Humans and Spirits are both on the decline and humans is a close match up anyways and not sure that spirits are really worth sideboarding for since the matchup is so awful anyways - hope to get lucky or dodge the match. They seem like they would be fine against Pheonix variants but I think they are just too slow there.
What do you guys think of a SB like this for a fairly stock list for GP Toronto?
1 Grafdigger's cage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Stony Silence
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Condemn
1 Timely Reinforcements