Thoughts on Mission Briefing
Cons:
- no body (cannot pressure opponent which can be important against combo & control)
- casting costs: UU (1UUUUU for Cryptic seems rough)
- gets taxed by Thalia
- can be taken by Kitesail
Pros:
- choose vs. target (Surgical & Ooze)
- does not get exiled by Remand
- Surveil helps digging for Terminus
Snappy is the overall better card but Surveil could be really good. I think it should at least see some testing. What are your thoughts?
What about a singleton Torrential Gearhulk? I've been testing one out now that I've replaced AV with HI, and so far I think it's been great. When Assassin's Trophy starts seeing play, Gearhulk might be even better because it will be easier to cast due to all the free ramp we'll be getting.
Fatcaster Mage as been great in 2016, it could see some more play now I think. The effect is great, provides a good body too.
@ Planeswalker : I'm on 2/1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor / Gideon Jura, but I've been thinking about unplayed planeswalker maybe in the recent days : Jace Beleren and Jace, Memory Adept. I know these look subpar when compared to the Mind Sculptor and even Teferi, but is anyone playing or toying with one of them ?
Cheers !
Thats DadCaster Mage good sir; He says "Get back THIS instant!"
but in all seriousness, i think one or two in the sideboard is where Id go if I needed power to close the game
Why did I read this in Riley Knight's voice? Funny all the same lol
Re:Planeswalkers - I don't think I would be messing with other Jace's, and if I was Architect of thought would be higher than those other options mentioned. If I was to be looking at other walkers they would be Elspeth, Knight Errant and the various Gideons. Elspeth KE seems especially good in a meta with UW decks everywhere and where GBx decks got some fancy new toys.
Thoughts on Mission Briefing
Cons:
- no body (cannot pressure opponent which can be important against combo & control)
- casting costs: UU (1UUUUU for Cryptic seems rough)
- gets taxed by Thalia
- can be taken by Kitesail
Pros:
- choose vs. target (Surgical & Ooze)
- does not get exiled by Remand
- Surveil helps digging for Terminus
Snappy is the overall better card but Surveil could be really good. I think it should at least see some testing. What are your thoughts?
i agree that its worthy of some testing. i could see a 1-2 split in either direction being a good.
the UU cost is prohibitive, even for a 2 color deck. however briefings + a cantrip digs you seriously deep towards a terminus. surveil 2 also works exceptionally well with jace brainstorming.
im not sure if im gonna be on UW or jeskai post GRN release, but if im on UW then i think imma try a 2-2 split.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I feel like Gideon Ally is better than Elspeth KE. I've been playing one main for a while and really liking it.
There's a couple reasons why I like Elspeth KE better:
- It ticks up while providing the token, which makes it easier to protect.
- It goes on the offense much sooner in a pinch than Gideon and provides flying to pressure walkers more effectively; Snap/Clique EOT into Elspeth KE is lights out against basically every walker that sees play.
- Has a real ultimate (good against Field of Ruin in the mirror, good against the potential GBx effects in the future like Assasin's Trophy, Abrupt Decay, Pulse etc)
Well yes, 2/2 is much better than 1/1, no argument there.
I will say that the damage out put vs combo decks is not super relevant since it's unlikely we want to tap out for them anyways, they are both bad against those decks.
I disagree about Gid4 protecting itself better, 4 loyalty is not a lot and it's not increasing in loyalty until we've already got the game locked up or feel to be in a dominant position. Not being able to plus against Colonnade decks is also a major disadvantage; if they can ever find a spot, 1 attack will kill your planeswalker. Against path decks it can never plus, and not having the ability to get our of double burn range ever is a downside as well.
I think the reason Gideon 4 doesn't show up in winning lists has nothing to do with how often it gets played; people love the card and try it often in UW. The same can't be said about EKE, no one is really trying it. I don't know if it's great, I haven't been playing it myself for a long time, but I do like it against BGx decks if they get popular.
I've tested Jace, Memory Adept and it felt average. I'm normally playing Gideon Jura, but this time, I added him to my 75 and it was okay-ish. Mathematically, he's a turn slower than Gideon Jura (five turn clock if the opponent never draws extra card other than the draw step). Gideon Jura is a 4 turn clock if the opponent is at 20, 3 turn mostly otherwise. So I'll stick with him for sure.
On really not sold on Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. Jace does everything I want in a planeswalker and at 5 CMC, Teferi is a bit more prohibitive. I add one copy for the Summer and it felt okay, never great other than on the turn it lands. I felt that Teferi was a good supporting planeswalker to Jace : when both were on the field, the card draw was real! But I'm not sure If I should add 1 copy to my 75. So far with 3 planeswalker (2 Jace / 1 Gideon), it's fine. But I don't think I should get the 3rd Jace (1st Teferi should add more value than the 3rd Jace). Thoughts on Teferi again ? ( I've read the last 10 pages and it was good having some thoughts about him through Chromium and all that stuff also )
You’re only thinking about grindy matchups, though, we’re we should already have the edge. Gideon is fairly good vs Combo, unless the Combo it’s named Storm or AdNauseam, and against Aggro or Control is usually a better choice. Not dismissing the idea, if you think otherwise it’s fine, but I played my fair share of games with both, and never enjoyed Elspeth without the assistance of multiples Geist or Vendilion.
@TomCourtenay
Again, I feel like Jace#3 before Teferi#2 is the correct choice... IF you also are on double DSphere. Otherwise, the other way around (2-2). I’m not into playing more than four walkers, because of the natural slowness of them.
Thanks Rabbit ! I'm very strong on Jace too, and I'm not that impressed by Teferi. I don't own any Teferi right now, but having 3 Jace / 1 Gideon, 2 Jace / 2 Teferi and 3 Jace / 1 Teferi are my options. I'm running 1 D-Sphere and 2 SfA and 4 Seas (not on miracles). In Seas' lists, I feel that 2 Jace / 1 Gideon is strong and 3 walkers seems enough because of the land destruction package. But I don't see many classic lists anymore though (everyone is on Miracles).
I'm very strong on Jace too, and I'm not that impressed by Teferi. I don't own any Teferi right now, but having 3 Jace / 1 Gideon, 2 Jace / 2 Teferi and 3 Jace / 1 Teferi are my options. I'm running 1 D-Sphere and 2 SfA and 4 Seas (not on miracles). In Seas' lists, I feel that 2 Jace / 1 Gideon is strong and 3 walkers seems enough because of the land destruction package. But I don't see many classic lists anymore though (everyone is on Miracles).
Everyone is on Miracles because Seas are not very good right now and Terminus' effect is strong right now; the format is too fast and Tron lands are more scarce and creatures are too resilient to "destroy" effects. I personally don't like miracles version because it makes a strong case for playing Opt over Serum visions which in turn incentivizes additional snapcasters. In general I think Opt is inferior to Serum (and most people on Opt are on 1 too few lands) and Snapcaster is subpar, so I don't particularly like the version but I will probably continue to play it until the meta shifts a bit. I would agree that in a Seas list with no miracles, both teferi and jace are less important, but still deserving of slots.
Ultimately, I think any of your planeswalker option choices are fine for your build, but your build is not situated to perform well over all. You should switch to miracles and enjoy the best deck in modern while it lasts, who knows what the future holds.
Speaking of the future, I think Miracles versions get a massive boon with Mission Briefing over snapcaster mage. It will fix some of the disincentive issues I mentioned previously. I think we can go back to Serum over opt, continue playing 25 lands (which i believe is 1 short for most builds on 4 opt and 1-2 search as the only "cantrips")and enjoy additional ways to set up miracles. Although I'm pretty sure that Sultai is where I will want to be when mission briefing and assassins trophy enter the card pool.
Opt won't get pushed out by Briefing. Briefing does not help trigger the Miracle mechanic. Briefing may replace Snappy in the Miracles build but not Opt.
Opt won't get pushed out by Briefing. Briefing does not help trigger the Miracle mechanic. Briefing may replace Snappy in the Miracles build but not Opt.
Briefing doesn't replace opt, Serum Visions does if briefing replaces snap. Briefing doesn't directly trigger miracles, but it certainly facilitates it by setting up for next draw.
Imo, the reason why Opt replaced Serum in the first place is because it plays better with snapcaster, not because it triggers miracles. Without a way to set up the top the deck Opt finding a miracle blind is not a strategy to build your deck around.
You could say that Opt plays better with briefing as well, and to an extent that's true. But the added flexibility of being able to cast briefing naked as a half decent spell, means you don't need to run a subpar cantrip in order to increase the flexibility the way you would with snapcaster.
I do think its telling that most miracles lists favor opt over serum visions. Serum only digs one card deeper, and if you draw the terminus off the serum, you're SOL. Plus in the mid game, opt is better with jace + terminus, and in general, there is argument that opt is just a better card than serum in decks that play counterspells.
I do think its telling that most miracles lists favor opt over serum visions. Serum only digs one card deeper, and if you draw the terminus off the serum, you're SOL. Plus in the mid game, opt is better with jace + terminus, and in general, there is argument that opt is just a better card than serum in decks that play counterspells.
I agree. Opt is better in current context, I said as much a few post ago. I just think the reasoning why it is better is because of Snapcaster mage, not Terminus, but it's a moot point because it has been solved already. It makes little sense to hash out the pros and cons of Opt vs Serum in current lists; The question I'm posing is, if we drop snapcaster and pick up Briefing, is Opt still better?
I disagree. I think its because of terminus.
I can count on 1 hand how many times i've made the snap > opt play when it wasn't because i was digging for a terminus. Its honestly not that good. Terminus at instant speed is a lot more relevant.
I disagree. I think its because of terminus.
I can count on 1 hand how many times i've made the snap > opt play when it wasn't because i was digging for a terminus. Its honestly not that good. Terminus at instant speed is a lot more relevant.
Terminus at instant speed is amazing, but the odds of hitting it off a single scry + draw are insanely low, it's like 15% at best. If your plan is to pass the turn and hope for a miracle, you're in a real bad spot. It's better to Serum and see if you can set one up for the next turn, and if you can't, then you get to make a game plan for that contingency. With Opt, it's like, pass the turn, hope for a miracle and when you miss 85% of the time, you just lost out on free scry value and you don't get a chance to use the card you just drew unless it's an instant. Not to mention how inferior it is when you Opt and keep the card on top, which I would say is more than half of the time, then you miss out double scry value and you'd be better off having registered Heiroglyphic illumination.
Look at the lists the HOF players are running - Serum Visions and Hieroglyph.
Is it outright wrong to play sets of both opt and serum visions? I have been liking the capacity for deck manipulation with 4 and 4 and 2 search for azcanta personally
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I disagree. I think its because of terminus.
I can count on 1 hand how many times i've made the snap > opt play when it wasn't because i was digging for a terminus. Its honestly not that good. Terminus at instant speed is a lot more relevant.
Terminus at instant speed is amazing, but the odds of hitting it off a single scry + draw are insanely low, it's like 15% at best. If your plan is to pass the turn and hope for a miracle, you're in a real bad spot. It's better to Serum and see if you can set one up for the next turn, and if you can't, then you get to make a game plan for that contingency. With Opt, it's like, pass the turn, hope for a miracle and when you miss 85% of the time, you just lost out on free scry value and you don't get a chance to use the card you just drew unless it's an instant. Not to mention how inferior it is when you Opt and keep the card on top, which I would say is more than half of the time, then you miss out double scry value and you'd be better off having registered Heiroglyphic illumination.
Look at the lists the HOF players are running - Serum Visions and Hieroglyph.
Opt is definitely better in Miracles because of Terminus. You're not evaluating the cards in context. In a vacuum, of course SV is the better card. In a deck with miracle cards, though, that changes. Serum Visions digs 3 deep vs. Opt only digging 2 deep, but Opt also gives you an additional chance to trigger a miracle. That is worth far more than a scry 1 in a deck leaning hard into the Terminus plan. You don't want sorcery speed cantrips in a Miracles build.
I really liked Luis Salvatto's build of Miracles from GP Stockholm. That guy gets it.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Serum Visions digs 3 deep vs. Opt only digging 2 deep, but Opt also gives you an additional chance to trigger a miracle. That is worth far more than a scry 1 in a deck leaning hard into the Terminus plan.
Is it though? Hitting a miracle 15% and less of the time is worth giving up an extra scry 100% of the time? If this was even close to true legacy miracles players have been making a huge mistake for years playing 4 Ponder before 4 Portent. Except they haven't, because even the much higher 22% of hitting a miracle is still an abysmal gamble to build a strategy around. It's better to access the card that is going to be better most of the time. You should play and choose cards based around what they do most of the time, not what they can do a tiny fraction of the time.
Is it though? Hitting a miracle 15% and less of the time is worth giving up an extra scry 100% of the time? If this was even close to true legacy miracles players have been making a huge mistake for years playing 4 Ponder before 4 Portent. Except they haven't, because even the much higher 22% of hitting a miracle is still an abysmal gamble to build a strategy around. It's better to access the card that is going to be better most of the time. You should play and choose cards based around what they do most of the time, not what they can do a tiny fraction of the time.
Ponder is nowhere near the same thing as SV. The problem with SV is the blind draw before you scry. With Ponder, if a Terminus is in the top 3 cards of your library, you can put it second from the top and draw another card with Ponder's draw. Then, on your opponent's turn you used to be able to activate your Top's draw ability, or now you could Brainstorm, or put it 3 down and cast Predict so the first draw on that is Terminus, or put it on top with a Portent so you get the miracle trigger on your opponent's upkeep. Legacy Miracles plays like 7 instant speed cantrips, and Ponder will only blind draw a Terminus if you have to shuffle. Even then, it's not as bad for them because they have Brainstorm in the format to put it back more easily. That is not true of Serum Visions, and is why it is not good in a Modern Miracles deck. You're seeing 3 cards with SV, but one of the cards you're seeing can't miracle, while you're seeing 2 with Opt and they can both miracle. So in terms of potential cards that could miracle, they're the same, but the difference comes when you take into account that SV can reduce the number of successes in the population, while Opt never will.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
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Cons:
- no body (cannot pressure opponent which can be important against combo & control)
- casting costs: UU (1UUUUU for Cryptic seems rough)
- gets taxed by Thalia
- can be taken by Kitesail
Pros:
- choose vs. target (Surgical & Ooze)
- does not get exiled by Remand
- Surveil helps digging for Terminus
Snappy is the overall better card but Surveil could be really good. I think it should at least see some testing. What are your thoughts?
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
Why did I read this in Riley Knight's voice? Funny all the same lol
Re:Planeswalkers - I don't think I would be messing with other Jace's, and if I was Architect of thought would be higher than those other options mentioned. If I was to be looking at other walkers they would be Elspeth, Knight Errant and the various Gideons. Elspeth KE seems especially good in a meta with UW decks everywhere and where GBx decks got some fancy new toys.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
i agree that its worthy of some testing. i could see a 1-2 split in either direction being a good.
the UU cost is prohibitive, even for a 2 color deck. however briefings + a cantrip digs you seriously deep towards a terminus. surveil 2 also works exceptionally well with jace brainstorming.
im not sure if im gonna be on UW or jeskai post GRN release, but if im on UW then i think imma try a 2-2 split.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)There's a couple reasons why I like Elspeth KE better:
- It ticks up while providing the token, which makes it easier to protect.
- It goes on the offense much sooner in a pinch than Gideon and provides flying to pressure walkers more effectively; Snap/Clique EOT into Elspeth KE is lights out against basically every walker that sees play.
- Has a real ultimate (good against Field of Ruin in the mirror, good against the potential GBx effects in the future like Assasin's Trophy, Abrupt Decay, Pulse etc)
I will say that the damage out put vs combo decks is not super relevant since it's unlikely we want to tap out for them anyways, they are both bad against those decks.
I disagree about Gid4 protecting itself better, 4 loyalty is not a lot and it's not increasing in loyalty until we've already got the game locked up or feel to be in a dominant position. Not being able to plus against Colonnade decks is also a major disadvantage; if they can ever find a spot, 1 attack will kill your planeswalker. Against path decks it can never plus, and not having the ability to get our of double burn range ever is a downside as well.
I think the reason Gideon 4 doesn't show up in winning lists has nothing to do with how often it gets played; people love the card and try it often in UW. The same can't be said about EKE, no one is really trying it. I don't know if it's great, I haven't been playing it myself for a long time, but I do like it against BGx decks if they get popular.
On really not sold on Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. Jace does everything I want in a planeswalker and at 5 CMC, Teferi is a bit more prohibitive. I add one copy for the Summer and it felt okay, never great other than on the turn it lands. I felt that Teferi was a good supporting planeswalker to Jace : when both were on the field, the card draw was real! But I'm not sure If I should add 1 copy to my 75. So far with 3 planeswalker (2 Jace / 1 Gideon), it's fine. But I don't think I should get the 3rd Jace (1st Teferi should add more value than the 3rd Jace). Thoughts on Teferi again ? ( I've read the last 10 pages and it was good having some thoughts about him through Chromium and all that stuff also )
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Thanks Rabbit ! I'm very strong on Jace too, and I'm not that impressed by Teferi. I don't own any Teferi right now, but having 3 Jace / 1 Gideon, 2 Jace / 2 Teferi and 3 Jace / 1 Teferi are my options. I'm running 1 D-Sphere and 2 SfA and 4 Seas (not on miracles). In Seas' lists, I feel that 2 Jace / 1 Gideon is strong and 3 walkers seems enough because of the land destruction package. But I don't see many classic lists anymore though (everyone is on Miracles).
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Everyone is on Miracles because Seas are not very good right now and Terminus' effect is strong right now; the format is too fast and Tron lands are more scarce and creatures are too resilient to "destroy" effects. I personally don't like miracles version because it makes a strong case for playing Opt over Serum visions which in turn incentivizes additional snapcasters. In general I think Opt is inferior to Serum (and most people on Opt are on 1 too few lands) and Snapcaster is subpar, so I don't particularly like the version but I will probably continue to play it until the meta shifts a bit. I would agree that in a Seas list with no miracles, both teferi and jace are less important, but still deserving of slots.
Ultimately, I think any of your planeswalker option choices are fine for your build, but your build is not situated to perform well over all. You should switch to miracles and enjoy the best deck in modern while it lasts, who knows what the future holds.
Speaking of the future, I think Miracles versions get a massive boon with Mission Briefing over snapcaster mage. It will fix some of the disincentive issues I mentioned previously. I think we can go back to Serum over opt, continue playing 25 lands (which i believe is 1 short for most builds on 4 opt and 1-2 search as the only "cantrips")and enjoy additional ways to set up miracles. Although I'm pretty sure that Sultai is where I will want to be when mission briefing and assassins trophy enter the card pool.
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
Briefing doesn't replace opt, Serum Visions does if briefing replaces snap. Briefing doesn't directly trigger miracles, but it certainly facilitates it by setting up for next draw.
Imo, the reason why Opt replaced Serum in the first place is because it plays better with snapcaster, not because it triggers miracles. Without a way to set up the top the deck Opt finding a miracle blind is not a strategy to build your deck around.
You could say that Opt plays better with briefing as well, and to an extent that's true. But the added flexibility of being able to cast briefing naked as a half decent spell, means you don't need to run a subpar cantrip in order to increase the flexibility the way you would with snapcaster.
I agree. Opt is better in current context, I said as much a few post ago. I just think the reasoning why it is better is because of Snapcaster mage, not Terminus, but it's a moot point because it has been solved already. It makes little sense to hash out the pros and cons of Opt vs Serum in current lists; The question I'm posing is, if we drop snapcaster and pick up Briefing, is Opt still better?
I can count on 1 hand how many times i've made the snap > opt play when it wasn't because i was digging for a terminus. Its honestly not that good. Terminus at instant speed is a lot more relevant.
Terminus at instant speed is amazing, but the odds of hitting it off a single scry + draw are insanely low, it's like 15% at best. If your plan is to pass the turn and hope for a miracle, you're in a real bad spot. It's better to Serum and see if you can set one up for the next turn, and if you can't, then you get to make a game plan for that contingency. With Opt, it's like, pass the turn, hope for a miracle and when you miss 85% of the time, you just lost out on free scry value and you don't get a chance to use the card you just drew unless it's an instant. Not to mention how inferior it is when you Opt and keep the card on top, which I would say is more than half of the time, then you miss out double scry value and you'd be better off having registered Heiroglyphic illumination.
Look at the lists the HOF players are running - Serum Visions and Hieroglyph.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
I really liked Luis Salvatto's build of Miracles from GP Stockholm. That guy gets it.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
Is it though? Hitting a miracle 15% and less of the time is worth giving up an extra scry 100% of the time? If this was even close to true legacy miracles players have been making a huge mistake for years playing 4 Ponder before 4 Portent. Except they haven't, because even the much higher 22% of hitting a miracle is still an abysmal gamble to build a strategy around. It's better to access the card that is going to be better most of the time. You should play and choose cards based around what they do most of the time, not what they can do a tiny fraction of the time.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW