How would you explain to someone the huge dominance of Teferi over Jace?
During the time DOM came out I was very much away from Magic and it really took me by surprise to see that Teferi was overwhelmingly favored over Jace. You know, the "omg jace op wotc y unban".
I just wanna what I missed because I have not been following Magic for a while.
the short version is that prior to the unban jace was feared and overrated. after the unban jace was quickly dismissed and underrated. enough time has passed where reality and perception have equalized and jace is real good in control, and better yet if you are playing with the miracle mechanic.
the period where jace was being underrated coincided with the release of teferi. when people realized teferi was not only modern playable but an upgrade for jeskai control; the absence of jace led to the natural assumption that teferi is better than jace. fast forward a couple of months and the question of which walker is objectively better is debatable, but the gap in perception has closed significantly; so you see the tag team working together in UW control.
teferi is a damn powerful card. being able to tick up AND draw a card AND untap mana is just huge in a deck with enough instant speed action. the fact that it can deal with any problem permanent, and doubles as a win-condition on its own is just gravy.
another part of it is that people are still getting over that a planeswalker on the level of jace the mind sculptor has recently been printed, when in general most of the community scoffs at the low power level of standard. teferi has played a big role in boosting jeskai and UW, but so have cards like Field of Ruin, Search for Azcanta, and Opt.
so sure teferi may be more powerful that jace, but i dont think 'huge dominance' is an accurate description for the difference.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Teferi is very powerful, but it isn't better than Jace. "Dominance over Jace" is a completely unjustified sentence. Dominant in what regard? Copies played? Nope. Presence across archetypes? Nope. Presence across fomats? What do you mean by dominance?
The only metric by which Teferi dominates Jace is mind share. Teferi is the new hotness, everyone wants to play with it and talk about it.
So what effect does Assassin's Trophy have on us? It definitely makes Spell Snare more desirable for us. I hadn't been playing them, but I think I'll start playing at least 1 now.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
assassin's trophy makes us want to play more basics and entreat the angels is now more appealing
I don't think it would make us play anymore basics, were already prepped for UW mirrors which run 4x Path and 4x Field and sometimes 1 GQ. Any 3 color BGx deck is going to run less 'basics matter' cards than UW and even straight GB would run the same number as UW or less.
Why so you say entreat is interesting? It doesn't seem anymore appealing than secure the wastes insofar as making multiple bodies reducing the effectiveness of spot removal, or insofar as capitalizing on the extra Mana. I don't think Entreat is a particularly good card personally.
I don't think Trophy is a big deal vs UW. It's a very good card, but I'm much more afraid of Bob, Tireless Tracker or an unchecked Lilly out or GBx than I am of a split card Hero's Downfall/Sinkhole/Disenchant with the PTE downside tacked on.
Edit** unless GBx morphs into ramunap excavator style deck focusing on Mana denial maybe with fulminator or something. Then we might need to include more basics and be very afraid lol
assassin's trophy makes us want to play more basics and entreat the angels is now more appealing
I don't think it would make us play anymore basics, were already prepped for UW mirrors which run 4x Path and 4x Field and sometimes 1 GQ. Any 3 color BGx deck is going to run less 'basics matter' cards than UW and even straight GB would run the same number as UW or less.
Why so you say entreat is interesting? It doesn't seem anymore appealing than secure the wastes insofar as making multiple bodies reducing the effectiveness of spot removal, or insofar as capitalizing on the extra Mana. I don't think Entreat is a particularly good card personally.
I don't think Trophy is a big deal vs UW. It's a very good card, but I'm much more afraid of Bob, Tireless Tracker or an unchecked Lilly out or GBx than I am of a split card Hero's Downfall/Sinkhole/Disenchant with the PTE downside tacked on.
Edit** unless GBx morphs into ramunap excavator style deck focusing on Mana denial maybe with fulminator or something. Then we might need to include more basics and be very afraid lol
I could see playing 9 basics, most lists play 8, it might be worth it to run the 3rd plains. I could have worded it better.
Im pretty sure Entreat is just a better card vs rock decks than secure. Entreat let's you beat the cards they drew off Bob and tracker. I assume there will be an increase in rock decks which makes Entreat better. I currently don't play Entreat(I think it's too clunky though I've never played it in modern), but now there might be a reason to as it's going to be harder to win with planeswalkers.
I guess another side effect is that assassins trophy doesn't hurt graveyard decks, which crush rock decks. So it seems like there shouldn't be big changes made to the deck other than basic land count and a slight variation of condition/card advantage. Well I guess snare goes up in value too, just to counter bob on the draw.
Entreat is certainly better off the top than secure the wastes in a topdeck war against BGx but it just feels clunky against the rest of the field. One of the reasons why I would prefer secure the wastes is how cheap you can play it in the early game before they have a chance to empty your hand out via LoTV or hand disruption. Secure is also a good way to flash threaten Lilly and it's also much cheaper to flashback with Snapcaster should they get it out of your hand early. Drawing Entreat in the opener or the first 10 cards against BGx (or any deck really) feels absolutely miserable.
imo its not worth getting too far ahead on making adjustments without seeing where trophy will ultimately land. straight GB is mostly theoretical at this point.
two cards that rise in stock are spell snare and AV. snare for the obvious reasons, but AV is something of a flex inclusion in UW that competes with azcanta; and this may tip it in its favor.
with the first copy of a card providing the largest effect, i think the first copy of azcanta is a given. in a format with a higher GBx representation i could see 1 azcanta/1 AV becoming the default. of course there can be more draw spells on top, but just for the baseline.
the card that loses the most stock imo is d-sphere. unlike walkers or an azcanta getting tagged, it has significant blowout potential.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
the card that loses the most stock imo is d-sphere. unlike walkers or an azcanta getting tagged, it has significant blowout potential.
Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay both already hit sphere. I think it's likely that Trophy replaces most of these, so it shouldn't be anymore of a blow out than it has been historically.
Basically reiterating what I've said before, but I don't think we have to adapt to the card. It doesn't do anything new. The only effect it might have is increasing BGx decks in the meta. most UW decks are fine against BGx.
What are the opinions on Chemister's Insight? Could this potentially replace some of the cantrips/draw spells in this deck?
It's cool to see a new mechaninc, but I think we're good with 2 SfA and Ancestral Vision too. Even, we have Glimmer of Genius to have extra card advantage and selection. So I don't dismiss it, but Think Twice is better IMO at 1U and 2U (so 3UU in total) by drawing 2 cards and thus netting 1. Just my 2 cents.
What are the opinions on Chemister's Insight? Could this potentially replace some of the cantrips/draw spells in this deck?
cantrips? no.
draw spells? probably still no.
hieroglyphic illumination is seeing increased play, but that is primarily because the versatility of the cheap cycling. chemister's insight is more lategame value, but only marginally. its also competing with cards like sphinx's rev and glimmer of genius. the frontloaded scry 2 on glimmer is comparable to jump-start.
or you might just run the first/additional copies of AV. think twice also offers that 'something to do with your mana later' aspect if you are looking for it.
thats a lot of competition on all fronts, and i dont think chem insight is winning those head-to-heads.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
What are the opinions on Chemister's Insight? Could this potentially replace some of the cantrips/draw spells in this deck?
I think it's slightly better than Glimmer of Genius, but probably not good enough for modern. I think heiroglyphic illumination is better than both simply because of cycle, but not sure that's good enough either. Makes some sense in the jeskai lists it's been popping up in, but I'm not fully convinced.
The only way I could see chemisters insight being any good is with a discard outlet, maybe Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, value gifts ungiven, or more likely in Esper or UB for lilliana, collective brutality synergies.
What we really wanted was Radical Idea to be a single blue Mana. That would be a very good card rather than a watered down think twice.
One thing Trophy does do is force us to change our play patterns with Teferi. We can't necessarily play him on 5 against a GB deck and think we're going to get to protect him with the two lands that untap at end of turn. That means we probably have to wait to cast Teferi until we can cast him and hold up mana to protect him before our end step, if the GB opponent is representing Trophy.
In terms of deck building, yeah, it probably has no effect. Maybe we play an extra Spell Snare, but GBx isn't that much of the meta anyway, and the card doesn't really do anything new besides giving them a Pulse effect at instant speed.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Cutting SFA seems wrong because it helps finding the Miracles spells.
If there is a resurgence of BGx, Spell Snare is a clear addition to the MD but I am not sure what to cut.
What about a singleton Torrential Gearhulk? I've been testing one out now that I've replaced AV with HI, and so far I think it's been great. When Assassin's Trophy starts seeing play, Gearhulk might be even better because it will be easier to cast due to all the free ramp we'll be getting.
Fatcaster Mage as been great in 2016, it could see some more play now I think. The effect is great, provides a good body too.
@ Planeswalker : I'm on 2/1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor / Gideon Jura, but I've been thinking about unplayed planeswalker maybe in the recent days : Jace Beleren and Jace, Memory Adept. I know these look subpar when compared to the Mind Sculptor and even Teferi, but is anyone playing or toying with one of them ?
What about a singleton Torrential Gearhulk? I've been testing one out now that I've replaced AV with HI, and so far I think it's been great. When Assassin's Trophy starts seeing play, Gearhulk might be even better because it will be easier to cast due to all the free ramp we'll be getting.
Fatcaster Mage as been great in 2016, it could see some more play now I think. The effect is great, provides a good body too.
@ Planeswalker : I'm on 2/1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor / Gideon Jura, but I've been thinking about unplayed planeswalker maybe in the recent days : Jace Beleren and Jace, Memory Adept. I know these look subpar when compared to the Mind Sculptor and even Teferi, but is anyone playing or toying with one of them ?
Cheers !
Thats DadCaster Mage good sir; He says "Get back THIS instant!"
but in all seriousness, i think one or two in the sideboard is where Id go if I needed power to close the game
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
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During the time DOM came out I was very much away from Magic and it really took me by surprise to see that Teferi was overwhelmingly favored over Jace. You know, the "omg jace op wotc y unban".
I just wanna what I missed because I have not been following Magic for a while.
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
GUSimic MerfolkUG
WUUW ControlUW
RBUGrixis ControlUBR
BUUB MillUB
Colorless Eldrazi Tron
WRBurnRW
GUSimic MerfolkUG
UMono U TurnsU
WGGenesis Wave EnchantressGW
the period where jace was being underrated coincided with the release of teferi. when people realized teferi was not only modern playable but an upgrade for jeskai control; the absence of jace led to the natural assumption that teferi is better than jace. fast forward a couple of months and the question of which walker is objectively better is debatable, but the gap in perception has closed significantly; so you see the tag team working together in UW control.
teferi is a damn powerful card. being able to tick up AND draw a card AND untap mana is just huge in a deck with enough instant speed action. the fact that it can deal with any problem permanent, and doubles as a win-condition on its own is just gravy.
another part of it is that people are still getting over that a planeswalker on the level of jace the mind sculptor has recently been printed, when in general most of the community scoffs at the low power level of standard. teferi has played a big role in boosting jeskai and UW, but so have cards like Field of Ruin, Search for Azcanta, and Opt.
so sure teferi may be more powerful that jace, but i dont think 'huge dominance' is an accurate description for the difference.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)The only metric by which Teferi dominates Jace is mind share. Teferi is the new hotness, everyone wants to play with it and talk about it.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I don't think it would make us play anymore basics, were already prepped for UW mirrors which run 4x Path and 4x Field and sometimes 1 GQ. Any 3 color BGx deck is going to run less 'basics matter' cards than UW and even straight GB would run the same number as UW or less.
Why so you say entreat is interesting? It doesn't seem anymore appealing than secure the wastes insofar as making multiple bodies reducing the effectiveness of spot removal, or insofar as capitalizing on the extra Mana. I don't think Entreat is a particularly good card personally.
I don't think Trophy is a big deal vs UW. It's a very good card, but I'm much more afraid of Bob, Tireless Tracker or an unchecked Lilly out or GBx than I am of a split card Hero's Downfall/Sinkhole/Disenchant with the PTE downside tacked on.
Edit** unless GBx morphs into ramunap excavator style deck focusing on Mana denial maybe with fulminator or something. Then we might need to include more basics and be very afraid lol
I could see playing 9 basics, most lists play 8, it might be worth it to run the 3rd plains. I could have worded it better.
Im pretty sure Entreat is just a better card vs rock decks than secure. Entreat let's you beat the cards they drew off Bob and tracker. I assume there will be an increase in rock decks which makes Entreat better. I currently don't play Entreat(I think it's too clunky though I've never played it in modern), but now there might be a reason to as it's going to be harder to win with planeswalkers.
I guess another side effect is that assassins trophy doesn't hurt graveyard decks, which crush rock decks. So it seems like there shouldn't be big changes made to the deck other than basic land count and a slight variation of condition/card advantage. Well I guess snare goes up in value too, just to counter bob on the draw.
two cards that rise in stock are spell snare and AV. snare for the obvious reasons, but AV is something of a flex inclusion in UW that competes with azcanta; and this may tip it in its favor.
with the first copy of a card providing the largest effect, i think the first copy of azcanta is a given. in a format with a higher GBx representation i could see 1 azcanta/1 AV becoming the default. of course there can be more draw spells on top, but just for the baseline.
the card that loses the most stock imo is d-sphere. unlike walkers or an azcanta getting tagged, it has significant blowout potential.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay both already hit sphere. I think it's likely that Trophy replaces most of these, so it shouldn't be anymore of a blow out than it has been historically.
Basically reiterating what I've said before, but I don't think we have to adapt to the card. It doesn't do anything new. The only effect it might have is increasing BGx decks in the meta. most UW decks are fine against BGx.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/mtgo-pauper/developing/647850-primer-angler-delver
Modern: Sultai Death's Shadow
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
Legacy: Snake&Show
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217-Deck-Sneak-and-Show
Discuss my Cube @ MTGsalvation:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=207309
It's cool to see a new mechaninc, but I think we're good with 2 SfA and Ancestral Vision too. Even, we have Glimmer of Genius to have extra card advantage and selection. So I don't dismiss it, but Think Twice is better IMO at 1U and 2U (so 3UU in total) by drawing 2 cards and thus netting 1. Just my 2 cents.
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
cantrips? no.
draw spells? probably still no.
hieroglyphic illumination is seeing increased play, but that is primarily because the versatility of the cheap cycling. chemister's insight is more lategame value, but only marginally. its also competing with cards like sphinx's rev and glimmer of genius. the frontloaded scry 2 on glimmer is comparable to jump-start.
or you might just run the first/additional copies of AV. think twice also offers that 'something to do with your mana later' aspect if you are looking for it.
thats a lot of competition on all fronts, and i dont think chem insight is winning those head-to-heads.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I think it's slightly better than Glimmer of Genius, but probably not good enough for modern. I think heiroglyphic illumination is better than both simply because of cycle, but not sure that's good enough either. Makes some sense in the jeskai lists it's been popping up in, but I'm not fully convinced.
The only way I could see chemisters insight being any good is with a discard outlet, maybe Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, value gifts ungiven, or more likely in Esper or UB for lilliana, collective brutality synergies.
What we really wanted was Radical Idea to be a single blue Mana. That would be a very good card rather than a watered down think twice.
In terms of deck building, yeah, it probably has no effect. Maybe we play an extra Spell Snare, but GBx isn't that much of the meta anyway, and the card doesn't really do anything new besides giving them a Pulse effect at instant speed.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
What do you think that the new Assassins trophy can affect the current UW lists?
As you have already commented, I thought about including 2 snare, which can also improve the pairing of burn (I can not win that match).
As for permanent reductions, would you continue with 2 Snap and 2 Vendilion? No SfA no Dtsphere?
Regards
If there is a resurgence of BGx, Spell Snare is a clear addition to the MD but I am not sure what to cut.
Legacy: UWR Miracles [https://deckstats.net/decks/44442/1092831-uwr-miracles-2]
Fatcaster Mage as been great in 2016, it could see some more play now I think. The effect is great, provides a good body too.
@ Planeswalker : I'm on 2/1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor / Gideon Jura, but I've been thinking about unplayed planeswalker maybe in the recent days : Jace Beleren and Jace, Memory Adept. I know these look subpar when compared to the Mind Sculptor and even Teferi, but is anyone playing or toying with one of them ?
Cheers !
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Thats DadCaster Mage good sir; He says "Get back THIS instant!"
but in all seriousness, i think one or two in the sideboard is where Id go if I needed power to close the game
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control