JtMS only costs 4, and Teferi costs 5. If JtMS is too slow to effect the game and/or too vulnerable to survive against aggro decks, then surely the same applies to Teferi.
Teferi isn't going to help with the aggro match up. At 5cmc you shouldn't be hoping he can help against aggro because it's unlikely you'll get to cast him in many games. Teferi is better against midrange which isn't what most control decks need right now in the format.
Another comparison for Teferi is Ob Nixilis Reignited. Though not in UW he sees some fringe play and I play him in my UB control deck. I think Teferi is better than Ob at just about everything. Tucking can be worse than Destroying but it also can be way better. 1 less starting loyalty hurts when you want to minus it away the turn he comes down, but if I could choose between the two, I would play Teferi (though he isn't in my colors).
Ob has been great against Midrange decks that only have one or two creatures leftover in the end game. Jace on the other hand gets into trouble here since he can't deal with threats for very long. While Tucking their best card can come back to bite you, I think 3 turns is plenty of time to find another answer.
The problem with Teferi is that there are already good options in the "Big planeswalker" slot in UW. And he doesn't necessarily win the game on his own so it's not like he's replacing Elspeth. I think the question is, is he better than big Gideon? And that will depend on the meta. And in our aggro meta he likely is worse.
Missed that one about StW : I'm not running it, I've played it in the very begining of my experience with the deck, but cut it for more counterspell. It seems a flex spot to me for sure.
After just reading a great article on UW in Standard I came here to note with excitement the revelation of using Teferi to tuck himself or one of your own permanents which though it might come up however infrequently could lead to interesting and unique play patterns that are likely the reason we all like these decks in the first place.
Now I'm wondering if you wrote that article?! Guessing based on your Screen-name.
After just reading a great article on UW in Standard I came here to note with excitement the revelation of using Teferi to tuck himself or one of your own permanents which though it might come up however infrequently could lead to interesting and unique play patterns that are likely the reason we all like these decks in the first place.
Now I'm wondering if you wrote that article?! Guessing based on your Screen-name.
Hahaha no not at all. I am just getting back into MTG and just play casually really. Not a Pro or a Writer of any kind just a Student.
Hey all,
I am getting back into mtg and would like to play UW control, here is my deck list, help would be appreciated. (I do not have the money to buy the more expensive cards such as Snapcaster Mage or Celestial Colonnade)
@horatio13, that looks like a fairly good start for a budget build. The optimal version of this deck leans much more heavily on Colonnades than Snapcasters, just in case you planned on acquiring the pricy pieces bit by bit.
Three Sphinx’s Revelation is too many. I would cut down to one, two at the most—but I’d rather see a Secure the Wastes before the second Rev, as your deck sorely lacks cards that will actually win the game. To that end, I would also suggest 2x Gideon of the Trials and 1x Gideon Jura as immediate upgrades that will take your deck to a whole new level. The Gid squad is fantastic at forcing opponents to overextend into sweepers, prolonging the game, and ending it in a hurry once you’ve stabilized.
Another effective budget win condition is Dragonlord Ojutai, which should be paired with Minamo, School at Water’s Edge if you want to commit to the Dragonlord (although spending money on Minamo may not be great if you’re saving toward Colonnades).
Speaking of lands, you need at least two more. 24 is probably sufficient, but 25 is more common.
As for cuts, the UW shell struggles to support more than 1-2 Logic Knots due to how slowly we fill the graveyard. Ojutai’s Command is pretty underpowered as well. Augur of Bolas is a fun card, but gets worse as you include more permanents, which are some of the best cards in UW (compared with the card pools in Grixis or Jeskai, which lean more on Instants and Sorceries).
Either way, I think having 4 sweepers is the way to be. Either ones that can be cast for 1 mana, or slower ones while hiding behind walls.
I managed to 5-0 my FNM with a fairly stock list, though only 4 matches were competitive. About 18 players. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1081537#paper
2-0 v. noob budget Minotaur deck. Poor guy was playing ixalan uncommon tap lands...guy could’ve at least played Khans life gain lands. Sided in purge, timely, and wrath, out with negate and spell snare
2-1 v. Merfolk (using trickster) game 1 mull to five and keep 5 lands. Scryed land down and showed him flooded strand before drawing land and scooping. Opponent wasn’t sure though what I was on. Took out 4 Seas, relying on Field for mutavaults (thoughts on this?), -2 spell snare and brought in timely, blessed alliance, wrath of god, 2 vendilion Clique and runed halo (which did name mutavault).
2-1 v. Bant value with Ramunap excavator, Knight of the Reliquary, E witness. Took out negate, one Jace, and one Spreading seas. Brought in dispel (opponent told me it was bad because of only 4 CC...I disagreed. Thoughts?) and two RIP.
2-1 v. Bogles. Brought in Elspeth, Runed Halo, Wrath of God, BLessed Alliance, timely reinforcements, 2 v Clique. Brought out condemn, 2paths, 1 search, 2 Jace, and negate.
2-1 v. Affinity. Still easy post board. Brought in the obvious hate.
Never used Damping sphere though Tron and storm were no-shows. Always wanted that extra wrath to draw towards... Only g1 I ever won was against poor noob
Greetings Everyone!
I've playing control for a while now (around a year) i started playing esper control, and now im in UW and loving it.
Despite loving control and the deck, i have yet to win any interesting tournament... (I have won in a few LGS but i can't get consistent results)
So i come to you guys for help, any tips/card changes/recommendations are welcome. I have a (tiny) pool of U/W cards so i'm open to suggestions.
This is the current deck im running:
(I'm missing some decks on plce 2 and 3 because i can't remember them, if i do i'll add them)
I don't mind changing cards in the deck for each place i go because i go on different days of the week, so fine tuning is OK.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks!
The guy who made this list spent quite a bit of time tuning it. It ran pretty well for me the entire night and felt very strong.
I think I would start with something similar to this and see what happens. I don't think this is the strongest version of the deck but it felt like it was very playable and very powerful.
I am super high on Gideon of the Trials right now too. That card was gas for me all night the other night. I just kept letting my Infect opponent attack me as much as he or she wanted too as long as they left Gideon alone.
Hey Kerrick. Long time stalker of you and a couple other mtgo-control heroes. Didn't know you were on here. Built the same miracles list that you recently 5-0d with last week and also 5-0d in paper. List feels really good. Only thought was trying to fit 1 more celestial purge in the board
I don't think this chart really makes a whole lot of sense.
You've noticed that by quantifying things this way, teferi makes much less sense, but you really like aetherling, despite common wisdom saying that teferi is appealing, and aetherling is unplayable.
Glittering wish isn't an actual wincon, so knowing what you expect to be fetching with it could be useful. Depending on whats in your deck/board, wish could in theory just be the best in every category, which like the above example, grossly misrepresents the cards (which you're likely going to be doing anyways given that how these cards/games play out isn't quantifiable in this way).
Your "style" category doesn't really work. I get what you're going for, but your categories need to just be something like "is an instant" "is capable of winning the game" and "has utility" or something to that effect. Telling me that elspeth knight errant is a "midrange/bomb hybrid" is meaningless.
Wurmcoil and batterskull are not particularly good against hyper aggro decks, but for cards that are actually win cons, being good in these matchups isn't something that should be heavily considered. Those matchups are not about wincons.
I also don't fully understand your "resistance against removal spells" category. Batterskull under the "semi-fail" category despite only really being weak to kolaghan's command while tapped out/low is notoriously difficult to fully deal with.
Gearhulk is also very vulnerable to removal spells. It probably provides value first, but thats not the same thing.
Elspeth and 4 mana gideon are also in different categories, why? Sure, turning gideon into a creature can leave him vulnerable, but you can just make 2/2s every turn, in which case he's comparable to elspeth. But then elspeth is more resistant to removal spells than jace, ignoring the fact that jace has a +2 making him better vs burn spells?
Or teferi being somehow better vs removal spells than most of these walkers? Being able to untap lands to counter removal spells shouldn't factor in here, because even a squire is immune to removal if you just counter all of it.
Finks is also inherently resistant to removal on some level (thats half the point).
Applicable against storm is also basically just the same as flash, with a slight change. Of course, how good a kitchen finks or gideon is against storm matters greatly if you're on the play/draw. Teferi is also not that strong vs storm since they can gifts in response to you casting him.
And the "ability to out-muscle..." category seems highly irrelevant. I'm also not totally sure what you mean with it. Gideon jura is very capable of ruining plenty of decks, and I would say 4mana gideon is more capable of it than 4 mana elspeth.
Some decks can't effectively beat baby gideon either.
And white sun's zenith is a fail despite being one of the most capable cards on this list in actually out muscling an entire deck.
I don't think this idea is totally unreasonable, but just picking wincons based on what scores higher is never going to be a good choice.
I think it might be worth trying to focus on what matchups different cards are better than others in, but that also depends a lot on your own deck construction.
Something like crucible of worlds or teferi are reasonable cards to play, but they're not actually wincons. You still need something else to actually win the game with. Even baby gideon is something I'd feel worried about playing as my only wincon.
On the other hand, if the only card in my deck capable of dealing damage or decking my opponent is white sun's zenith, thats fine. Its now freeing up deck space for other things, which is worth something.
Or jace the mind sculptor is more of a card advantage engine that is a wincon if you need it, which also takes a bit of pressure off your other wincons, but also attacks on a different axis.
While I get that in theory, applicable against combo and flash aren't the same thing, in practice they basically are.
Glittering wish is nice, but its not exactly the wincon. Wish for sigarda is, or wish for DLO or DLD is, but I think you're better off making that clear in the chart.
You also don't have spell queller or geist in the chart, which are both more relevant than finks, aetherling, etc. BSA has been making a comeback primarily in jeskai, but its also playable in UW.
Kitchen finks being a dog to tarmogoyf is fair, but you can't classify it as "resistance to removal" when you actually mean "resistance to larger creatures".
I would honestly just take each win con and rate it 1-5 in every matchup instead of doing anything else. Maybe you could explain your reasoning in such a chart, maybe not.
That being said, wincons have a lot to do with your own deck construction as opposed to what you expect your opponents to be playing.
Hey guys, been awhile since I've been able to pay attention to magic, had a lot on my plate.
Has Dominaria affected anything other than people trying out Teferi? Not just in our deck, but in others?
Teferi does look interesting, especially in UWx...looks like it would be great in a deck like Jeskai. I don't think we have the instant count to justify Teferi over other walkers, and would probably require us to shift a lot of things around. Has anybody experimented with this? The only draw I see to keeping Teferi in UW specifically is Field of Ruin, but last I recall we were discussing FoR's relevance in the meta. Are we still seeing a ton of decks that justify the Seas/FoR package?
Sorry for the rapidfire questions lol. I'm just excited to have some time and the focus to get back on track. Any consensus on a stock list starting point?
I kinda gave up on Seas for now and I'm sticking to Miracles. Seems better positioned against Hollow one, Boggles and Humans. It got kinda worst against Tron and we're still a dog to any Steam Vents deck but I'm really liking it so far. On 2 Teferi and 3 Jace for now.
One thing I have wondered is whether or not this deck could play Blood Moon. Coming from Legacy Miracles, I only had a Volcanic Island and a lone Mountain to splash for moon/REB. While REB is not a thing in Modern, would splashing red for moon be worthwhile? UW runs plenty of basics to facilitate clean mana and Blood Moon would lock out a number of other decks, including Humans. Any thoughts?
I have actually thought about playing ~red sources for helix + moon in the 75, but I've never actually played it.
Realistically, helix is the major draw to playing red in jeskai, IMO, as well as some sideboard stuff I guess.
You could do it (probably with tec edge over field of ruin), but path to exile + moon is just not a combo. I'd be more inclined to try UB + moon, but you don't get helix at that point, and its likely that full grixis is better, since kolaghan's command + lighting bolt add a lot to that deck.
I have actually thought about playing ~red sources for helix + moon in the 75, but I've never actually played it.
Realistically, helix is the major draw to playing red in jeskai, IMO, as well as some sideboard stuff I guess.
You could do it (probably with tec edge over field of ruin), but path to exile + moon is just not a combo. I'd be more inclined to try UB + moon, but you don't get helix at that point, and its likely that full grixis is better, since kolaghan's command + lighting bolt add a lot to that deck.
I had forgotten about Path + Blood Moon. Swords to Plowshares needs to be modern legal
I've been splashing a few red sources in my control builds to facilitate 2x Helix + 2x Electrolyze + 1x Desolate Lighthouse, and the package has proven very powerful for minimal investment: even without Moon, those cards manage to preserve either tempo or card advantage against a diverse enough number of decks and matchups. Otherwise, UW control is hard-pressed to find efficient removal that's not completely dead in non-creature matchups (e.g. Electrolyze cycles).
Teferi isn't going to help with the aggro match up. At 5cmc you shouldn't be hoping he can help against aggro because it's unlikely you'll get to cast him in many games. Teferi is better against midrange which isn't what most control decks need right now in the format.
Another comparison for Teferi is Ob Nixilis Reignited. Though not in UW he sees some fringe play and I play him in my UB control deck. I think Teferi is better than Ob at just about everything. Tucking can be worse than Destroying but it also can be way better. 1 less starting loyalty hurts when you want to minus it away the turn he comes down, but if I could choose between the two, I would play Teferi (though he isn't in my colors).
Ob has been great against Midrange decks that only have one or two creatures leftover in the end game. Jace on the other hand gets into trouble here since he can't deal with threats for very long. While Tucking their best card can come back to bite you, I think 3 turns is plenty of time to find another answer.
The problem with Teferi is that there are already good options in the "Big planeswalker" slot in UW. And he doesn't necessarily win the game on his own so it's not like he's replacing Elspeth. I think the question is, is he better than big Gideon? And that will depend on the meta. And in our aggro meta he likely is worse.
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Now I'm wondering if you wrote that article?! Guessing based on your Screen-name.
Hahaha no not at all. I am just getting back into MTG and just play casually really. Not a Pro or a Writer of any kind just a Student.
I am getting back into mtg and would like to play UW control, here is my deck list, help would be appreciated. (I do not have the money to buy the more expensive cards such as Snapcaster Mage or Celestial Colonnade)
4 Path to Exile
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
2 Condemn
2 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
1 Dispel
1 Remand
2 Ojutai's Command
3 Logic Knot
2 Mana Leak
2 Augur of Bolas
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Opt
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
6 Plains
Three Sphinx’s Revelation is too many. I would cut down to one, two at the most—but I’d rather see a Secure the Wastes before the second Rev, as your deck sorely lacks cards that will actually win the game. To that end, I would also suggest 2x Gideon of the Trials and 1x Gideon Jura as immediate upgrades that will take your deck to a whole new level. The Gid squad is fantastic at forcing opponents to overextend into sweepers, prolonging the game, and ending it in a hurry once you’ve stabilized.
Another effective budget win condition is Dragonlord Ojutai, which should be paired with Minamo, School at Water’s Edge if you want to commit to the Dragonlord (although spending money on Minamo may not be great if you’re saving toward Colonnades).
Speaking of lands, you need at least two more. 24 is probably sufficient, but 25 is more common.
As for cuts, the UW shell struggles to support more than 1-2 Logic Knots due to how slowly we fill the graveyard. Ojutai’s Command is pretty underpowered as well. Augur of Bolas is a fun card, but gets worse as you include more permanents, which are some of the best cards in UW (compared with the card pools in Grixis or Jeskai, which lean more on Instants and Sorceries).
Good luck to you, and let us know how it goes!
This one, with only snaps for creatures and a playset of Terminus for sweepers. http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/120642
And this one, heavy on the walls, with a diversity of sweepers. http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/120667
Either way, I think having 4 sweepers is the way to be. Either ones that can be cast for 1 mana, or slower ones while hiding behind walls.
I managed to 5-0 my FNM with a fairly stock list, though only 4 matches were competitive. About 18 players. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1081537#paper
2-0 v. noob budget Minotaur deck. Poor guy was playing ixalan uncommon tap lands...guy could’ve at least played Khans life gain lands. Sided in purge, timely, and wrath, out with negate and spell snare
2-1 v. Merfolk (using trickster) game 1 mull to five and keep 5 lands. Scryed land down and showed him flooded strand before drawing land and scooping. Opponent wasn’t sure though what I was on. Took out 4 Seas, relying on Field for mutavaults (thoughts on this?), -2 spell snare and brought in timely, blessed alliance, wrath of god, 2 vendilion Clique and runed halo (which did name mutavault).
2-1 v. Bant value with Ramunap excavator, Knight of the Reliquary, E witness. Took out negate, one Jace, and one Spreading seas. Brought in dispel (opponent told me it was bad because of only 4 CC...I disagreed. Thoughts?) and two RIP.
2-1 v. Bogles. Brought in Elspeth, Runed Halo, Wrath of God, BLessed Alliance, timely reinforcements, 2 v Clique. Brought out condemn, 2paths, 1 search, 2 Jace, and negate.
2-1 v. Affinity. Still easy post board. Brought in the obvious hate.
Never used Damping sphere though Tron and storm were no-shows. Always wanted that extra wrath to draw towards... Only g1 I ever won was against poor noob
I've playing control for a while now (around a year) i started playing esper control, and now im in UW and loving it.
Despite loving control and the deck, i have yet to win any interesting tournament... (I have won in a few LGS but i can't get consistent results)
So i come to you guys for help, any tips/card changes/recommendations are welcome. I have a (tiny) pool of U/W cards so i'm open to suggestions.
This is the current deck im running:
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Enchantment
1 Runed Halo
2 Detention Sphere
1 Search for Azcanta
Land
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Prairie Stream
1 Irrigated Farmland
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Field of Ruin
3 Plains
5 Island
1 Condemn
1 Logic Knot
1 Spell Snare
1 Secure the Wastes
3 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Disallow
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Settle the Wreckage
4 Path to Exile
Sorcery
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Supreme Verdict
Planeswalker
1 Gideon Jura
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Damping Sphere
2 Celestial Purge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
I play mostly on 3 places
Place A) Meta is:
Place 2) Meta Is:
Place 3) (Where i usually end up better) Meta is:
(I'm missing some decks on plce 2 and 3 because i can't remember them, if i do i'll add them)
I don't mind changing cards in the deck for each place i go because i go on different days of the week, so fine tuning is OK.
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks!
The guy who made this list spent quite a bit of time tuning it. It ran pretty well for me the entire night and felt very strong.
I think I would start with something similar to this and see what happens. I don't think this is the strongest version of the deck but it felt like it was very playable and very powerful.
You've noticed that by quantifying things this way, teferi makes much less sense, but you really like aetherling, despite common wisdom saying that teferi is appealing, and aetherling is unplayable.
Glittering wish isn't an actual wincon, so knowing what you expect to be fetching with it could be useful. Depending on whats in your deck/board, wish could in theory just be the best in every category, which like the above example, grossly misrepresents the cards (which you're likely going to be doing anyways given that how these cards/games play out isn't quantifiable in this way).
Your "style" category doesn't really work. I get what you're going for, but your categories need to just be something like "is an instant" "is capable of winning the game" and "has utility" or something to that effect. Telling me that elspeth knight errant is a "midrange/bomb hybrid" is meaningless.
Wurmcoil and batterskull are not particularly good against hyper aggro decks, but for cards that are actually win cons, being good in these matchups isn't something that should be heavily considered. Those matchups are not about wincons.
I also don't fully understand your "resistance against removal spells" category. Batterskull under the "semi-fail" category despite only really being weak to kolaghan's command while tapped out/low is notoriously difficult to fully deal with.
Gearhulk is also very vulnerable to removal spells. It probably provides value first, but thats not the same thing.
Elspeth and 4 mana gideon are also in different categories, why? Sure, turning gideon into a creature can leave him vulnerable, but you can just make 2/2s every turn, in which case he's comparable to elspeth. But then elspeth is more resistant to removal spells than jace, ignoring the fact that jace has a +2 making him better vs burn spells?
Or teferi being somehow better vs removal spells than most of these walkers? Being able to untap lands to counter removal spells shouldn't factor in here, because even a squire is immune to removal if you just counter all of it.
Finks is also inherently resistant to removal on some level (thats half the point).
Applicable against storm is also basically just the same as flash, with a slight change. Of course, how good a kitchen finks or gideon is against storm matters greatly if you're on the play/draw. Teferi is also not that strong vs storm since they can gifts in response to you casting him.
And the "ability to out-muscle..." category seems highly irrelevant. I'm also not totally sure what you mean with it. Gideon jura is very capable of ruining plenty of decks, and I would say 4mana gideon is more capable of it than 4 mana elspeth.
Some decks can't effectively beat baby gideon either.
And white sun's zenith is a fail despite being one of the most capable cards on this list in actually out muscling an entire deck.
I don't think this idea is totally unreasonable, but just picking wincons based on what scores higher is never going to be a good choice.
I think it might be worth trying to focus on what matchups different cards are better than others in, but that also depends a lot on your own deck construction.
Something like crucible of worlds or teferi are reasonable cards to play, but they're not actually wincons. You still need something else to actually win the game with. Even baby gideon is something I'd feel worried about playing as my only wincon.
On the other hand, if the only card in my deck capable of dealing damage or decking my opponent is white sun's zenith, thats fine. Its now freeing up deck space for other things, which is worth something.
Or jace the mind sculptor is more of a card advantage engine that is a wincon if you need it, which also takes a bit of pressure off your other wincons, but also attacks on a different axis.
Glittering wish is nice, but its not exactly the wincon. Wish for sigarda is, or wish for DLO or DLD is, but I think you're better off making that clear in the chart.
You also don't have spell queller or geist in the chart, which are both more relevant than finks, aetherling, etc. BSA has been making a comeback primarily in jeskai, but its also playable in UW.
Kitchen finks being a dog to tarmogoyf is fair, but you can't classify it as "resistance to removal" when you actually mean "resistance to larger creatures".
I would honestly just take each win con and rate it 1-5 in every matchup instead of doing anything else. Maybe you could explain your reasoning in such a chart, maybe not.
That being said, wincons have a lot to do with your own deck construction as opposed to what you expect your opponents to be playing.
Has Dominaria affected anything other than people trying out Teferi? Not just in our deck, but in others?
Teferi does look interesting, especially in UWx...looks like it would be great in a deck like Jeskai. I don't think we have the instant count to justify Teferi over other walkers, and would probably require us to shift a lot of things around. Has anybody experimented with this? The only draw I see to keeping Teferi in UW specifically is Field of Ruin, but last I recall we were discussing FoR's relevance in the meta. Are we still seeing a ton of decks that justify the Seas/FoR package?
Sorry for the rapidfire questions lol. I'm just excited to have some time and the focus to get back on track. Any consensus on a stock list starting point?
Cheers
Realistically, helix is the major draw to playing red in jeskai, IMO, as well as some sideboard stuff I guess.
You could do it (probably with tec edge over field of ruin), but path to exile + moon is just not a combo. I'd be more inclined to try UB + moon, but you don't get helix at that point, and its likely that full grixis is better, since kolaghan's command + lighting bolt add a lot to that deck.
I had forgotten about Path + Blood Moon. Swords to Plowshares needs to be modern legal
Any lists for such a splash?
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R