Its pretty good against Control actually since it gives you a huge time frame to deal with a resolved snap. Decent against jund as it's nice card to topdeck in the late game because it can chump block plus redraws. Abzan it's less good, looks pretty embarrassing against lingering souls, but I haven't seen much Abzan lately. It's actually pretty good against Eldrazi as well, blocks matter reshaper and helps alleviate unexpected smashers.
It's pretty much always medium to good. I noticed you said you didn't like it vs smasher or death shadow, but it's actually great against those cards. Buys a huge chunk of life or loyalty until you can verdict or whatever. It's pretty much only bad against combo decks and big Mana, everywhere else it's pretty decent
I've been playing with UW Control since the unbans with 3 copies of Jace in the main. He's been good, but I'm not entirely sure playing 3 copies is correct. It's pretty clunky playing 3 copies, and usually when he lands the deck is so full of air that the opponent has a few turns to catch up before they are actually just locked out of the game.
I think going down to 2 copies is probably the right thing to do, but it feels weird to be playing so few copies of such a sweet card.
The other "controversial" things in my list are likely 4th Cryptic, and one Remand. Those could easily be replaced by +1 Gideon of the Trials, and +1 Sphinx's Revelation/Glimmer of Genious or a Wall of Omens.
It's possible that going down to 2 JTMS means I'll need something like Revelation in the list.
I've been playing with UW Control since the unbans with 3 copies of Jace in the main. He's been good, but I'm not entirely sure playing 3 copies is correct. It's pretty clunky playing 3 copies, and usually when he lands the deck is so full of air that the opponent has a few turns to catch up before they are actually just locked out of the game.
I think going down to 2 copies is probably the right thing to do, but it feels weird to be playing so few copies of such a sweet card.
The other "controversial" things in my list are likely 4th Cryptic, and one Remand. Those could easily be replaced by +1 Gideon of the Trials, and +1 Sphinx's Revelation/Glimmer of Genious or a Wall of Omens.
It's possible that going down to 2 JTMS means I'll need something like Revelation in the list.
I've been on 2 Jace for a while haha, but the lists popping up online (there aren't many yet) are almost all playing 3 or even 4. I do believe that 2 is the least clunky while still seeing it often enough to justify its inclusion. Cut a Cryptic for a 2nd Azcanta though -- believe me, you'll thank me for it. =D And I'm a sucker for Cryptic Command.
The Remand is pretty nice tho. I think I should test it out again. How do you feel about Gideon Jura vs. Gideon Ally?
I'm not a huge fan of Search for Azcanta. I played two copies for a while I didn't like drawing them early or seeing them in my 7 since they are so low impact early in the game and playing one early in the game is super risky. It is game winning when you've stabilized the board though.
As of now, I prefer Gideon Jura. He's better on defense than AOZ is and can immediately come down and generate meaningful value by eating a Tarmogoyf/Reality Smasher/Dark Confidant or something similar. That being said, he can't generate nearly as much value as Ally of Zendikar can, and in UW mirrors the player with Ally of Zendikar will easily win over a player who has Gideon Jura.
I agree about Jura. I was playing him in a UW midrange deck with a lot more creatures and some main deck Settle the Wreckage. The interaction was sweet but the real all-star was Gideon. Dude is almost impossible to kill and has immediate positive impact for you when he comes down.
I agree about Jura. I was playing him in a UW midrange deck with a lot more creatures and some main deck Settle the Wreckage. The interaction was sweet but the real all-star was Gideon. Dude is almost impossible to kill and has immediate positive impact for you when he comes down.
Personally I love original Gideon, but with having adopted to 2 JTMS, I ended up wanting to pair my curve back a little. 2 Jace, 3 Cryptic, 3+ Wraths, Snapcaster, and Secure just make for a lot of clunk along with Jura. Since then, I've traded my 1-2 Big Gideon in for 2 Gideon 3s. He does work well in the shell, with putting on the brakes before I wrath the board, but I miss Big Pappa Gideon. Maybe I'll just throw him in as a 1-of some day.
Re: the above deck list, I do like the 1/1/1 Mana Leak/Logic Knot/Negate. I lobbied Grixis Control to adopt Knot for years, but in UW, I have a hard time even with 2 in my deck. (Fewer fetches and fewer cantrips, plus ramping my opponent.) Going 2/1 or 1/1 with Leak has been working well for me as a compromise. And while some people are down on the MD Negate, I personally like it. (Grixis Shadow pretty much exists because of Stubborn Denial, so there must be some non-creatures worth countering out there. ) Plus we have a number of good tools for dealing with permanents, so an extra safety valve vs. noncreatures is nice to have around IMO.
I also like the MD Clique and the full Seas/Field package. Actually, we're nearly on the exact same list. The only major changes I'd advocate for are, as Annihilator mentioned, -1 Cryptic for +1 Search (personally I find that to be the best turn-2 play on many board states, but your experience is your experience of course), and finding SB slots for 2-3 Geist of Saint Traft. Being able to field a usually-3-turn-clock can clinch games that you'd never have won otherwise. And it's a lot easier to tap down for him late-game when you have a Teferi giving him flash.
Speaking of which, how's the SB Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir working for you? As mentioned a few days past, I've been trying out one in the board as well. I haven't gotten to an FNM with him yet, but in testing he's been relevant surprisingly often and he's just a house when you get him on the field.
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I agree about Jura. I was playing him in a UW midrange deck with a lot more creatures and some main deck Settle the Wreckage. The interaction was sweet but the real all-star was Gideon. Dude is almost impossible to kill and has immediate positive impact for you when he comes down.
Personally I love original Gideon, but with having adopted to 2 JTMS, I ended up wanting to pair my curve back a little. 2 Jace, 3 Cryptic, 3+ Wraths, Snapcaster, and Secure just make for a lot of clunk along with Jura. Since then, I've traded my 1-2 Big Gideon in for 2 Gideon 3s. He does work well in the shell, with putting on the brakes before I wrath the board, but I miss Big Pappa Gideon. Maybe I'll just throw him in as a 1-of some day.
Re: the above deck list, I do like the 1/1/1 Mana Leak/Logic Knot/Negate. I lobbied Grixis Control to adopt Knot for years, but in UW, I have a hard time even with 2 in my deck. (Fewer fetches and fewer cantrips, plus ramping my opponent.) Going 2/1 or 1/1 with Leak has been working well for me as a compromise. And while some people are down on the MD Negate, I personally like it. (Grixis Shadow pretty much exists because of Stubborn Denial, so there must be some non-creatures worth countering out there. ) Plus we have a number of good tools for dealing with permanents, so an extra safety valve vs. noncreatures is nice to have around IMO.
I also like the MD Clique and the full Seas/Field package. Actually, we're nearly on the exact same list. The only major changes I'd advocate for are, as Annihilator mentioned, -1 Cryptic for +1 Search (personally I find that to be the best turn-2 play on many board states, but your experience is your experience of course), and finding SB slots for 2-3 Geist of Saint Traft. Being able to field a usually-3-turn-clock can clinch games that you'd never have won otherwise. And it's a lot easier to tap down for him late-game when you have a Teferi giving him flash.
Speaking of which, how's the SB Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir working for you? As mentioned a few days past, I've been trying out one in the board as well. I haven't gotten to an FNM with him yet, but in testing he's been relevant surprisingly often and he's just a house when you get him on the field.
I haven't played any games with him yet, but had a sideboard slot to use and want to give him a spin. There's been a big resurgence in my meta of U/R Blue Moon/Through the Breach decks, and some other U based shells as well as Jund so he seems worth a shot.
My fear is that he's going to be too hard to resolve and too hard to cast and will likely get removed for a more versatile card. UW also isn't really a deck that can take great advantage of his abilities. We have no real haymaker to force through with him, and no creatures to flash in so his best trait is guaranteed wins in a counter battle and stopping cascade spells.
Hello guys! I am unsure whether this is the right thread to post this, but as it is UW and the other thread does not seem to advance that much, I post this here. Yep, it's (probably) yet again another Miracles deck.
I am unsure whether this is the usual control shell sans Seas but with Miracles, or exactly what. I am sure many have already tried this idea, but I am trying to find a home for our new overlord JTMS. The 4-of Snapcasters is to make sure I can draw as much as possible on the opponent's turn with Opt and Remand.
On which matchups would we actually need a (multiple?) sweeper that would make pursuing Miracles worthwhile? Or is this already a foregone conclusion?
Seal Away
1W
Enchantment
Flash
When Seal Away enters the battlefield, exile target tapped creature an opponent controls until Seal Away leaves the battlefield.
Healing Grace
W
Instant
Prevent the next 3 damage that would be dealt to any target this turn by a source of your choice. You gain 3 life.
Those both seem very playable! They’re probably pretty low key printings in terms of what people will be talking about in the near future, but I like them both for UWC. Oh, and there’s also this guy...
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
3WU
Legendary Planeswalker - Teferi
4
+1: Draw a card. At the beginning of the next end step, untap two lands.
-3: Put target nonland permanent into its owner’s library third from the top.
-8: You get an emblem with “Whenever you draw a card, exile target permanent an opponent controls.”
He could be quite interesting depending on how our builds shake out after the big meta changes.
Wizard's Retort
1UU
Instant
This spell costs 1 less to cast if you control a Wizard.
Counter target spell.
The condition is almost certainly too much of a stretch for us, but it looks like they’re printing a lot of Wizards in this block, so you never know. T1 Sage of Epityr?
That’s what stood out to me during a quick skim. Looks like there’s some real potential here.
Wizard Retort works very well with Snapcaster, of course!
I can see Teferi being a staple at the top end. The problem with planeswalkers in UW control is that you have to tap out to cast them, leaving you vulnerable on the following turn. This helps prevent that, allowing you to hold up a Logic Knot, Negate, or Path.
Seal Away is also pretty good.
Edit: Honorable mention to Stabilization Orb! Great tech vs. Tron and Storm, two difficult matchups for UW Control. It's about time they printed something like this.
Seal Away is just a lot worse than Condemn and Blessed Alliance.
The tapped clause on this is probably better than the attacking clause on condemn, giving up the ability to hit vigilance creatures is probably a fine trade off in order to hit pro or pseudo pro-spell like Reality Smasher (or emrakul if desperate), ETB tapped creatures, as well as being able to control random mana dorks and combo/value creatures like knight of reliquary, JaceVP, Kiki, lavaman, hangarback, heritage druid etc.
I doubt it's worth the extra mana though, otherwise we would probably see at least some play of Journey to Nowhere, which I have always thought was close to playable, especially in a Bob world (notably Seal Away doesn't hit bob until it's triggered at least once). Though the instant speed is definitely not negligible; haste creatures, playing better with counterspells and the myriad of random interactions could be worth a lot (off the top of my head; creature lands, Cryptic Tap, Chord of Calling, EOT Prized Amalgam, Eldrazi Displacer, Smuggler's Copters etc)
Comparing Seal Away (or Condemn, really) to Blessed Alliance isn't particularly apt in my opinion. Blessed Alliance is high variance; sometimes it's a complete blowout (killing a hexproof/regen creature) other times it's completely anemic (they sac something that doesnt matter) and sometimes it's a mediocre removal spell. Condemn and Seal Away are much less variable; they just kill a good creature. For those reasons I think BA is better suited as a sideboard card while the others have more maindeck potential.
I mean, I've said before that I think jeskai is poorly positioned right now.
In the past jeskai was basically the "beat all the aggro decks, be decent vs midrange/control, lose to all the anti-control decks"
The problem is that some of the aggro decks aren't as good matchups any more (dredge/hollow one, bogles, etc) and midrange isn't as good anymore either.
I think a lot of people are sort of building their decks wrong too, but in general, decks like esper, grixis, or blue moon seem to gain more out of the current meta.
I've been feeling this way as well lately, that having game vs. fair decks but little game vs. unfair decks is a bad place to be at the moment. What do people think about UW's place in this paradigm?
Compared to Jeskai, UW has a weaker removal suite. That's offset a little by the strong/less-painful mana base and sometimes a Wall of Omens or two, but that's off-offset by the lack of Helix. Alongside that, UW has 4-10 maindeck land hate cards to put the opponent off-tempo as we make land drops, which gives us more game versus lots of unfair decks and some fair ones. (Also, I imagine that this will cause Dampening Orb to benefit us once disproportionately DOM hits.) Finally, the other big reason to run Jeskai, the Bolt-Snap-Bolt, we're missing entirely, which means it's harder for us to maindeck tempo beaters like Geist.
Other than that, the grind cards, the stall cards, the board wipes, the planeswalkers, etc. all seem pretty much comparable. Some Jeskai decks have even adopted the Secure the Wastes plan.
Does all that add up to you? Do you think that analysis holds up in terms of our position among control decks and within the meta as a whole?
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I think UW has some problems too, but they're not beyond solving. (Neither are jeskais, for the record).
UW first and foremost needs a more established meta, which sucks because the meta is a mess right now.
I am absolutely not interested in brewing with UW seriously right now. (but unseriously, oh boy...)
In general, yes UW has the "stagger" effect of knocking our opponents off balance.
Interestingly enough, jeskai is the deck with the greatest ability to end a game quickly (you'd think the light disruption would be coupled with the clocking, but its not). Of course, we don't have red for bolt, and they don't have the mana stability to play 4+ ghost quarters nor the deck space to play all of the spreading seas in general.
I've posted a few lists in twitch chat/on discord in the past few days, but I'll post them here as well.
First, heres my take on jeskai. I think most of the people playing jeskai are doing it wrong right now (they're taking the old list and cutting 1 cryptic and 1 4-drop walker for 2 jaces basically and calling it a day, ignoring the fact that the meta changes) and obviously that doesn't work, hence the fact that we have very few results (despite decent representation) and a majority of the games its played on camera its been slaughtered (and the games aren't particularly close).
This is still pretty early, and I'm not totally happy with it, but I'd much prefer to play this than most of the "popular" lists.
The sideboard is still a pile (as most of mine are) as I'm not sure what I need to be focusing on, or which cards feel more valuable than others.
I'm currently likely to cut the gideon for the 4th snap, and move the gideon to the board over one of the counterspells (a counterflux/negate/stroke).
I also still have a love-hate relationship with SFA. I hate having to tap so much mana every turn to get my card advantage, after having to rely on a 2-drop do-nearly-nothing sorcery first, that also relies on the graveyard. That being said, we desperately need card advantages, 4 jaces doesn't work, and theres nothing else I can play that doesn't suck more, so 2 copies stay.
Your first question is almost certainly "1 bolt?" and its a reasonable question. In general, helix is superior. Humans and affinity are on the downswing (and we've got 2 more in the board if we need them) and even still, the matchup is great. We're also not bolting people from 20 to 0 much anymore (since we're still on a protect jace plan in general).
I'm up to 25 lands as well, as I desperately want to be making land drops. Having to spend time casting serum early loses games, as does making weird sequencing choices trying to find both lands and spells.
I'm only on 1 field of ruin, as I treat a basic mountain like a colorless source. I might cut a sulfur falls for a second, but I'm currently not focusing om the mana base.
I think sphinx's revelation needs to be included. I, and many others, have been on the fence about the card for a while, but more than anything now, trading our cards in often poor ways is a fact of life right now, and jace being a major source of card advantage is enemy number 1, in addition to being the card we trade weirdly the most often. Having something to just turn the game around in 1 go is big. Its very possible to dig for it, and the lifegain is as important as ever.
I know looking at it isn't too wild, but it seems like all of the decisions I made while making it are opposite from what most people are doing, so explanation seemed worthwhile.
For UW, heres my current take. I haven't really played it much at all (as I mentioned, I'm not interesting in UW much right now), but here it is anyways.
Im on 26 lands because I want a lot of land destruction right now. I'd love to fit a irrigated farmland, but I also prefer more fetchlands (especially with no 0 mana cantrips) when playing logic knot, and I'm not playing countermagic that isn't logic knot right now. I didn't mention this earlier, but mainboard negates feel good 10% of the time, and lose the game the other 90%. There are actually so many creatures we have to counter early right now. Of course, theres no good countermagic in this format, so theres only so much you can do, but I vastly prefer to play a bunch of removal mainboard (especially wraths) and sideboard the countermagic right now.
This UW list is very heavy on the walkers (and also doesn't play rev despite playing a lot of lands) because I think disruption with countermagic and land destruction > boardwipe > ride jace/gideon patrol to victory is basically the only way this archetype can succeed right now.
When the meta settles down, this may change.
The planeswalker redirection rules are changing for dominaria, which definitely hurts us a lot. I used to like mainboard leylines in esper, but if we're playing jace and cards like runed halo or leyline won't save him, their stock goes down a lot. Halo in particular might still be playable, but I can see switching it out.
Lastly, I think UB control is actually pretty well positioned right now. I like it a lot more than UW. The major reason is path to exile. I've always been one of those people who won't play less than 4 paths because there are so many creatures that simply have to be pathed in the format. This is still true, but its a little different now.
1, decks like RG hollow one aren't beatable with control decks. They entirely decide their own fate against U decks. If they have a nut hand, you're ****ed. If not you don't matter because they won't do anything important before its too late.
2, path sucks with mana leak and tectonic edge/ghost quarter. Playing murderous cuts, dismembers, pushes, and damnations is fine when coupled with mana leak.
3, decks like valakut or tron are weak to countermagic, and countering everything they play and not needing to rely on path is possible with enough land disruption.
4, jace being a wincon helps this a lot. mana leak is less dead when jace is around, and games won't (hopefully) go as long.
Like the last one, this is pretty rough, and more or less untested. Use it mostly for inspiration.
I also have an unreasonable love for ashiok, but I do think the card is undervalued.
Its also a bit light on basics for 4 field of ruins, but I want to keep fetches for fatal push. Its possible thats not as important as I think it will be though.
lastly, it just hit me recently, but flashfreeze might be pretty important vs all the green tron, jund, ponza, etc. The next time I play I'll probably play a copy or several in my board. If anyone else has been trying it out recently, let me know how relevant its been.
If anyone else wants more lists, just ask.
I've spent the past (however long since jace has been unbanned) brewing. If you have an idea and its blue, just ask (and literally the only requirement is blue. ive brewed a lot of janky lists).
I like the UW list that Top 8'd the SCG. Looks pretty stock, probably has game against everything and isn't trying to get too fancy with Jace. If I was going to play an important tournament that is probably what I would register with minor sideboard changes.
On a conceptual level, I feel like there is too much Blood moon around to rely on a deck that uses it's Mana base as part of it's main game plan, and for that reason I really like U/R for my control Deck of choice. The Blue Moon list from top 32 of scg looks pretty good, I just think I would move the blood moons to the sideboard and run the full 4 field of ruin alongside a pair of spreading seas. Much less susceptible to blood moon, obviously, better synergy between leak and removal, and still plenty of potential against big Mana and combo.
Cody_X, how about a list based on Baral + Ojutai's Command. I have lived the dream of returning a Baral from the graveyard, countering a creature, then looting with Baral, and playing U Negates, and UUU Cryptics.
Having played decks with baral before, they don't work, he's not good enough. Its possible a UW midrange deck would be better, but it seems like they'd want to be more aggressive (which baral isn't) and have fewer instants/sorceries to take advantage of.
I've had some success with ojutai's command in UW martyr, as well as jeskai. I played a "maximum card velocity" build of jeskai a while back (was like 4 remands, 4 eelctrolyze, 4 cryptic, 2 ojutai's, 4 snap, 4 bolt, 4 path, 4 helix, 4 serum) or something to that effect, plus lands. You were basically a counterburn deck, and you could close out games quickly while maintaining some semblance of card advantage. Deck was ok, probably wouldn't work as well now.
Hi! I'm new to UW Control and decided to buy into the deck to have a strong deck rotation with Burn and Ad Nauseam. I've been tweaking the list in order to metagame it against UR Storm, Ad Nauseam, Burn, Tron, Affinity and White Weenie. I've came up with this iteration so far and I've been 2-0 on my first tournament yesterday. Here's the list :
I've played twice against Burn and went 2-0 each time (2-1 and 2-0). I had an incredible turn at the end of game 2 in match 2 where the opponent played Monastery Swiftspear, and I let it resolved. I was at 4 life. He played Goblin Guide and I used Cryptic Command to counter and draw. He played Lightning Bolt and I used Negate. He then played Lightning Helix and I played Spell Snare. I fetched down to 3 and found a Plains to Path the Swiftspear and never looked back. I activated Celestial Colonnade several time while having CC in backup to win.
Some other elements :
1) The list felt smooth. Sometimes, I find that having 4 Field is too much, but I can't complain yet. 3 Colonnade is sweet too.
2) The counterspell suite is nice too. I find having 9-10 counterspells to be very effective.
3) I may have flooded, but I found 3 Supreme Verdict and 4 Path to be sometimes overwhelming. I wouldn't want less Path, but maybe 2 Verdict post-board could be a good thing.
4) The planeswalker were nice! Gideon of the Trials helped me win the match 1.
Comments about the lists are welcomed also !
Looking forward to contribute more to the thread ! Cheers !
I like the list, reducing the cost of the Miracles cards is a cool take. Also, Disallow. Man, that's a hell of a card. I'm always smitten by that but keep thinking I'd rather run Nimble Obstructionist in a more tempo Bant 3-drop control. Quellers, Geist, Obstructionists... Nobles to play 3s on t2.
In the coming meta, traditional UW control won't be able to place in top 3. This is because of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf. Esper control, UB control, and USA control are better positioned because of these cards:
UW control is a great deck, but it either
a) taps out for jace and is subject to lightning bolt or threats, or
b) doesn't tap out and threats are discarded.
Against black decks, Thoughtseize can also function as Overmaster, making it useless to hold up countermagic. UW is currently stuck between tapping out and playing draw-go. Its threat density is low and it's not proactive enough. The answer is a splash of either black or red. Here is my take on UW control with a red splash:
As you can see, the light splash of red allows us to run Lightning Bolt (3) and Lightning Helix (just 1). It helps take care of creatures, planeswalkers (especially opposing jaces), protects against burn a small amount, and gives the deck more reach. Just one hit from Gideon Jura or Gideon of the Trials and a couple bolts will severely harm or kill an opponent.
Also we have Chandra, Flamecaller. Call it cute but I prefer the term spicy. This could be elspeth. But flamecaller is so much better. Her + ability closes out games quickly and gets rid of planeswalkers; her 0 ability has synergy with snapcaster, while refilling our hand when things get stale. Her minus ability is a very flexible boardwipe. I'd say if we're running red, we should run her as a finisher instead of Elspeth or another expensive bomb.
In this format I don't think holding a lot of mana up is beneficial. There are only 2 Cryptic Commands because holding 4 mana up when you have less than 6 lands out and hoping your opponent plays a bomb instead of stalls is not a situation you want to be in. If you hold 4 mana up they know you have cryptic. It's a powerful card only if it resolves, and it's easy to play around. 2 feels right, because it's there later in the game (statistically speaking), when you can hold 6 mana up.
Other than that, you can see it's very traditional: it's got the Spreading Seas package, the 2/2 Vendillion Clique + Jace package a lot of people like, 4 Field of Ruin, and some gideons. It's also got some wrath effects, a full set of Path to Exile, and some 1-of counterspells that you want to see at some point and be targets for snapping back later in the game.
This deck is very diverse because it branches out from the traditional UW control shell, adding a splash of red in response to a diverse, proactive approaching meta. The sideboard contains no red cards, because we don't really want to become a true USA deck. By keeping UW control's core and strong sideboard, and just adding a splash of red, we can deal with a lot more threats and close out the game faster.
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It's pretty much always medium to good. I noticed you said you didn't like it vs smasher or death shadow, but it's actually great against those cards. Buys a huge chunk of life or loyalty until you can verdict or whatever. It's pretty much only bad against combo decks and big Mana, everywhere else it's pretty decent
I think going down to 2 copies is probably the right thing to do, but it feels weird to be playing so few copies of such a sweet card.
The other "controversial" things in my list are likely 4th Cryptic, and one Remand. Those could easily be replaced by +1 Gideon of the Trials, and +1 Sphinx's Revelation/Glimmer of Genious or a Wall of Omens.
It's possible that going down to 2 JTMS means I'll need something like Revelation in the list.
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (4)
1 Gideon Jura
1 Gideon of the Trials
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Other Spells (28)
4 Path to Exile
4 Cryptic Command
4 Serum Visions
4 Spreading Seas
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
2 Spell Snare
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Wrath of God
1 Logic Knot
1 Negate
1 Mana Leak
1 Remand
4 Field of Ruin
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Plains
1 Mystic Gate
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Stony Silence
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Rest in Peace
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disenchant
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
I've been on 2 Jace for a while haha, but the lists popping up online (there aren't many yet) are almost all playing 3 or even 4. I do believe that 2 is the least clunky while still seeing it often enough to justify its inclusion. Cut a Cryptic for a 2nd Azcanta though -- believe me, you'll thank me for it. =D And I'm a sucker for Cryptic Command.
The Remand is pretty nice tho. I think I should test it out again. How do you feel about Gideon Jura vs. Gideon Ally?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
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Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
As of now, I prefer Gideon Jura. He's better on defense than AOZ is and can immediately come down and generate meaningful value by eating a Tarmogoyf/Reality Smasher/Dark Confidant or something similar. That being said, he can't generate nearly as much value as Ally of Zendikar can, and in UW mirrors the player with Ally of Zendikar will easily win over a player who has Gideon Jura.
Personally I love original Gideon, but with having adopted to 2 JTMS, I ended up wanting to pair my curve back a little. 2 Jace, 3 Cryptic, 3+ Wraths, Snapcaster, and Secure just make for a lot of clunk along with Jura. Since then, I've traded my 1-2 Big Gideon in for 2 Gideon 3s. He does work well in the shell, with putting on the brakes before I wrath the board, but I miss Big Pappa Gideon. Maybe I'll just throw him in as a 1-of some day.
Re: the above deck list, I do like the 1/1/1 Mana Leak/Logic Knot/Negate. I lobbied Grixis Control to adopt Knot for years, but in UW, I have a hard time even with 2 in my deck. (Fewer fetches and fewer cantrips, plus ramping my opponent.) Going 2/1 or 1/1 with Leak has been working well for me as a compromise. And while some people are down on the MD Negate, I personally like it. (Grixis Shadow pretty much exists because of Stubborn Denial, so there must be some non-creatures worth countering out there. ) Plus we have a number of good tools for dealing with permanents, so an extra safety valve vs. noncreatures is nice to have around IMO.
I also like the MD Clique and the full Seas/Field package. Actually, we're nearly on the exact same list. The only major changes I'd advocate for are, as Annihilator mentioned, -1 Cryptic for +1 Search (personally I find that to be the best turn-2 play on many board states, but your experience is your experience of course), and finding SB slots for 2-3 Geist of Saint Traft. Being able to field a usually-3-turn-clock can clinch games that you'd never have won otherwise. And it's a lot easier to tap down for him late-game when you have a Teferi giving him flash.
Speaking of which, how's the SB Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir working for you? As mentioned a few days past, I've been trying out one in the board as well. I haven't gotten to an FNM with him yet, but in testing he's been relevant surprisingly often and he's just a house when you get him on the field.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I haven't played any games with him yet, but had a sideboard slot to use and want to give him a spin. There's been a big resurgence in my meta of U/R Blue Moon/Through the Breach decks, and some other U based shells as well as Jund so he seems worth a shot.
My fear is that he's going to be too hard to resolve and too hard to cast and will likely get removed for a more versatile card. UW also isn't really a deck that can take great advantage of his abilities. We have no real haymaker to force through with him, and no creatures to flash in so his best trait is guaranteed wins in a counter battle and stopping cascade spells.
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
Instant
4 Path to Exile
4 Opt
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
2 Negate
2 Cryptic Command
2 Search for Azcanta
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Field of Ruin
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Glacial Fortress
6 Island
2 Plains
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Celestial Purge
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Dispel
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Detention Sphere
On which matchups would we actually need a (multiple?) sweeper that would make pursuing Miracles worthwhile? Or is this already a foregone conclusion?
Seal Away
1W
Enchantment
Flash
When Seal Away enters the battlefield, exile target tapped creature an opponent controls until Seal Away leaves the battlefield.
Healing Grace
W
Instant
Prevent the next 3 damage that would be dealt to any target this turn by a source of your choice. You gain 3 life.
Those both seem very playable! They’re probably pretty low key printings in terms of what people will be talking about in the near future, but I like them both for UWC. Oh, and there’s also this guy...
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
3WU
Legendary Planeswalker - Teferi
4
+1: Draw a card. At the beginning of the next end step, untap two lands.
-3: Put target nonland permanent into its owner’s library third from the top.
-8: You get an emblem with “Whenever you draw a card, exile target permanent an opponent controls.”
He could be quite interesting depending on how our builds shake out after the big meta changes.
Wizard's Retort
1UU
Instant
This spell costs 1 less to cast if you control a Wizard.
Counter target spell.
The condition is almost certainly too much of a stretch for us, but it looks like they’re printing a lot of Wizards in this block, so you never know. T1 Sage of Epityr?
That’s what stood out to me during a quick skim. Looks like there’s some real potential here.
I can see Teferi being a staple at the top end. The problem with planeswalkers in UW control is that you have to tap out to cast them, leaving you vulnerable on the following turn. This helps prevent that, allowing you to hold up a Logic Knot, Negate, or Path.
Seal Away is also pretty good.
Edit: Honorable mention to Stabilization Orb! Great tech vs. Tron and Storm, two difficult matchups for UW Control. It's about time they printed something like this.
I doubt it's worth the extra mana though, otherwise we would probably see at least some play of Journey to Nowhere, which I have always thought was close to playable, especially in a Bob world (notably Seal Away doesn't hit bob until it's triggered at least once). Though the instant speed is definitely not negligible; haste creatures, playing better with counterspells and the myriad of random interactions could be worth a lot (off the top of my head; creature lands, Cryptic Tap, Chord of Calling, EOT Prized Amalgam, Eldrazi Displacer, Smuggler's Copters etc)
Comparing Seal Away (or Condemn, really) to Blessed Alliance isn't particularly apt in my opinion. Blessed Alliance is high variance; sometimes it's a complete blowout (killing a hexproof/regen creature) other times it's completely anemic (they sac something that doesnt matter) and sometimes it's a mediocre removal spell. Condemn and Seal Away are much less variable; they just kill a good creature. For those reasons I think BA is better suited as a sideboard card while the others have more maindeck potential.
I've been feeling this way as well lately, that having game vs. fair decks but little game vs. unfair decks is a bad place to be at the moment. What do people think about UW's place in this paradigm?
Compared to Jeskai, UW has a weaker removal suite. That's offset a little by the strong/less-painful mana base and sometimes a Wall of Omens or two, but that's off-offset by the lack of Helix. Alongside that, UW has 4-10 maindeck land hate cards to put the opponent off-tempo as we make land drops, which gives us more game versus lots of unfair decks and some fair ones. (Also, I imagine that this will cause Dampening Orb to benefit us once disproportionately DOM hits.) Finally, the other big reason to run Jeskai, the Bolt-Snap-Bolt, we're missing entirely, which means it's harder for us to maindeck tempo beaters like Geist.
Other than that, the grind cards, the stall cards, the board wipes, the planeswalkers, etc. all seem pretty much comparable. Some Jeskai decks have even adopted the Secure the Wastes plan.
Does all that add up to you? Do you think that analysis holds up in terms of our position among control decks and within the meta as a whole?
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
I think UW has some problems too, but they're not beyond solving. (Neither are jeskais, for the record).
UW first and foremost needs a more established meta, which sucks because the meta is a mess right now.
I am absolutely not interested in brewing with UW seriously right now. (but unseriously, oh boy...)
In general, yes UW has the "stagger" effect of knocking our opponents off balance.
Interestingly enough, jeskai is the deck with the greatest ability to end a game quickly (you'd think the light disruption would be coupled with the clocking, but its not). Of course, we don't have red for bolt, and they don't have the mana stability to play 4+ ghost quarters nor the deck space to play all of the spreading seas in general.
I've posted a few lists in twitch chat/on discord in the past few days, but I'll post them here as well.
First, heres my take on jeskai. I think most of the people playing jeskai are doing it wrong right now (they're taking the old list and cutting 1 cryptic and 1 4-drop walker for 2 jaces basically and calling it a day, ignoring the fact that the meta changes) and obviously that doesn't work, hence the fact that we have very few results (despite decent representation) and a majority of the games its played on camera its been slaughtered (and the games aren't particularly close).
2 search for azcanta
2 jace, the mind sculptor
1 gideon, ally of zendikar
1 secure the wastes
1 sphinx's revelation
2 electrolyze
4 serum visions
4 path to exile
1 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
2 supreme verdict
3 logic knot
3 cryptic command
3 celestial colonnade
1 field of ruin
4 scalding tarn
4 flooded strand
2 hallowed fountain
2 steam vents
1 sacred foundry
3 island
2 plains
1 mountain
2 sulfur falls
1 izzet staticaster
2 vendilion clique
1 blessed alliance
1 celestial purge
1 counterflux
1 disdainful stroke
1 dispel
2 lightning bolt
2 negate
1 settle the wreckage
1 wear//tear
The sideboard is still a pile (as most of mine are) as I'm not sure what I need to be focusing on, or which cards feel more valuable than others.
I'm currently likely to cut the gideon for the 4th snap, and move the gideon to the board over one of the counterspells (a counterflux/negate/stroke).
I also still have a love-hate relationship with SFA. I hate having to tap so much mana every turn to get my card advantage, after having to rely on a 2-drop do-nearly-nothing sorcery first, that also relies on the graveyard. That being said, we desperately need card advantages, 4 jaces doesn't work, and theres nothing else I can play that doesn't suck more, so 2 copies stay.
Your first question is almost certainly "1 bolt?" and its a reasonable question. In general, helix is superior. Humans and affinity are on the downswing (and we've got 2 more in the board if we need them) and even still, the matchup is great. We're also not bolting people from 20 to 0 much anymore (since we're still on a protect jace plan in general).
I'm up to 25 lands as well, as I desperately want to be making land drops. Having to spend time casting serum early loses games, as does making weird sequencing choices trying to find both lands and spells.
I'm only on 1 field of ruin, as I treat a basic mountain like a colorless source. I might cut a sulfur falls for a second, but I'm currently not focusing om the mana base.
I think sphinx's revelation needs to be included. I, and many others, have been on the fence about the card for a while, but more than anything now, trading our cards in often poor ways is a fact of life right now, and jace being a major source of card advantage is enemy number 1, in addition to being the card we trade weirdly the most often. Having something to just turn the game around in 1 go is big. Its very possible to dig for it, and the lifegain is as important as ever.
I know looking at it isn't too wild, but it seems like all of the decisions I made while making it are opposite from what most people are doing, so explanation seemed worthwhile.
For UW, heres my current take. I haven't really played it much at all (as I mentioned, I'm not interesting in UW much right now), but here it is anyways.
1 secure the wastes
1 timely reinforcements
3 jace, the mind sculptor
3 gideon of the trials
2 gideon jura
1 search for azcanta
4 spreading seas
1 blessed alliance
4 path to exile
4 supreme verdict
3 logic knot
3 cryptic command
4 celestial colonnade
4 field of ruin
3 tectonic edge
5 island
3 plains
4 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
2 hallowed fountain
2 vendilion clique
1 detention sphere
2 rest in peace
2 runed halo
1 blessed alliance
1 celestial purge
1 disdainful stroke
2 dispel
2 negate
This UW list is very heavy on the walkers (and also doesn't play rev despite playing a lot of lands) because I think disruption with countermagic and land destruction > boardwipe > ride jace/gideon patrol to victory is basically the only way this archetype can succeed right now.
When the meta settles down, this may change.
The planeswalker redirection rules are changing for dominaria, which definitely hurts us a lot. I used to like mainboard leylines in esper, but if we're playing jace and cards like runed halo or leyline won't save him, their stock goes down a lot. Halo in particular might still be playable, but I can see switching it out.
Lastly, I think UB control is actually pretty well positioned right now. I like it a lot more than UW. The major reason is path to exile. I've always been one of those people who won't play less than 4 paths because there are so many creatures that simply have to be pathed in the format. This is still true, but its a little different now.
1, decks like RG hollow one aren't beatable with control decks. They entirely decide their own fate against U decks. If they have a nut hand, you're ****ed. If not you don't matter because they won't do anything important before its too late.
2, path sucks with mana leak and tectonic edge/ghost quarter. Playing murderous cuts, dismembers, pushes, and damnations is fine when coupled with mana leak.
3, decks like valakut or tron are weak to countermagic, and countering everything they play and not needing to rely on path is possible with enough land disruption.
4, jace being a wincon helps this a lot. mana leak is less dead when jace is around, and games won't (hopefully) go as long.
Like the last one, this is pretty rough, and more or less untested. Use it mostly for inspiration.
I also have an unreasonable love for ashiok, but I do think the card is undervalued.
Its also a bit light on basics for 4 field of ruins, but I want to keep fetches for fatal push. Its possible thats not as important as I think it will be though.
3 ashiok, the nightmare weaver
3 jace, the mind sculptor
4 fatal push
1 dismember
1 murderous cut
3 damnation
2 spell snare
4 mana leak
1 logic knot
3 cryptic command
2 search for azcanta
4 tectonic edge
4 field of ruin
4 creeping tar pit
2 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 island
2 swamp
2 watery grave
1 disdainful stroke
2 countersquall
1 dispel
3 surgical extraction
2 collective brutality
4 thoughtseize
lastly, it just hit me recently, but flashfreeze might be pretty important vs all the green tron, jund, ponza, etc. The next time I play I'll probably play a copy or several in my board. If anyone else has been trying it out recently, let me know how relevant its been.
If anyone else wants more lists, just ask.
I've spent the past (however long since jace has been unbanned) brewing. If you have an idea and its blue, just ask (and literally the only requirement is blue. ive brewed a lot of janky lists).
On a conceptual level, I feel like there is too much Blood moon around to rely on a deck that uses it's Mana base as part of it's main game plan, and for that reason I really like U/R for my control Deck of choice. The Blue Moon list from top 32 of scg looks pretty good, I just think I would move the blood moons to the sideboard and run the full 4 field of ruin alongside a pair of spreading seas. Much less susceptible to blood moon, obviously, better synergy between leak and removal, and still plenty of potential against big Mana and combo.
3 snapcaster mage
3 jace, the mind sculptor
2 entreat the angels
4 path to exile
4 terminus
4 opt
4 telling time
1 search for azcanta
2 remand
1 negate
1 disallow
2 ojutai's command
2 cryptic command
4 celestial colonnade
4 field of ruin
5 island
3 plains
4 flooded strand
2 hallowed fountain
1 glacial fortress
1 mystic gate
Having played decks with baral before, they don't work, he's not good enough. Its possible a UW midrange deck would be better, but it seems like they'd want to be more aggressive (which baral isn't) and have fewer instants/sorceries to take advantage of.
I've had some success with ojutai's command in UW martyr, as well as jeskai. I played a "maximum card velocity" build of jeskai a while back (was like 4 remands, 4 eelctrolyze, 4 cryptic, 2 ojutai's, 4 snap, 4 bolt, 4 path, 4 helix, 4 serum) or something to that effect, plus lands. You were basically a counterburn deck, and you could close out games quickly while maintaining some semblance of card advantage. Deck was ok, probably wouldn't work as well now.
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Wall of Omens
1 Dragonlord Ojutai
Planeswalkers (3)
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Gideon Jura
Spells (28)
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
2 Negate
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Cryptic Command
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Spreading Seas
3 Celestial Colonnade
4 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Condemn
2 Dispel
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Detention Sphere
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Timely Reinforcements
I've played twice against Burn and went 2-0 each time (2-1 and 2-0). I had an incredible turn at the end of game 2 in match 2 where the opponent played Monastery Swiftspear, and I let it resolved. I was at 4 life. He played Goblin Guide and I used Cryptic Command to counter and draw. He played Lightning Bolt and I used Negate. He then played Lightning Helix and I played Spell Snare. I fetched down to 3 and found a Plains to Path the Swiftspear and never looked back. I activated Celestial Colonnade several time while having CC in backup to win.
Some other elements :
1) The list felt smooth. Sometimes, I find that having 4 Field is too much, but I can't complain yet. 3 Colonnade is sweet too.
2) The counterspell suite is nice too. I find having 9-10 counterspells to be very effective.
3) I may have flooded, but I found 3 Supreme Verdict and 4 Path to be sometimes overwhelming. I wouldn't want less Path, but maybe 2 Verdict post-board could be a good thing.
4) The planeswalker were nice! Gideon of the Trials helped me win the match 1.
Comments about the lists are welcomed also !
Looking forward to contribute more to the thread ! Cheers !
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Thanks again!
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Helix
and
Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize
Collective Brutality
UW control is a great deck, but it either
a) taps out for jace and is subject to lightning bolt or threats, or
b) doesn't tap out and threats are discarded.
Against black decks, Thoughtseize can also function as Overmaster, making it useless to hold up countermagic. UW is currently stuck between tapping out and playing draw-go. Its threat density is low and it's not proactive enough. The answer is a splash of either black or red. Here is my take on UW control with a red splash:
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
Enchantments
2x Search for Azcanta
4x Spreading Seas
Instants
2x Cryptic Command
1x Disallow
1x Remand
4x Mana Leak
1x Logic Knot
4x Path to Exile
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Lightning Helix
Lands
4x Field of Ruin
4x Island
1x Tectonic Edge
3x Flooded Strand
2x Celestial Colonnade
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Plains
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Steam Vents
1x Mountain
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Gideon of the Trials
1x Gideon Jura
1x Chandra, Flamecaller
Sorceries
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Wrath of God
Creatures
2x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
Enchantments
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
Instants
4x Dispel
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Disallow
As you can see, the light splash of red allows us to run Lightning Bolt (3) and Lightning Helix (just 1). It helps take care of creatures, planeswalkers (especially opposing jaces), protects against burn a small amount, and gives the deck more reach. Just one hit from Gideon Jura or Gideon of the Trials and a couple bolts will severely harm or kill an opponent.
Also we have Chandra, Flamecaller. Call it cute but I prefer the term spicy. This could be elspeth. But flamecaller is so much better. Her + ability closes out games quickly and gets rid of planeswalkers; her 0 ability has synergy with snapcaster, while refilling our hand when things get stale. Her minus ability is a very flexible boardwipe. I'd say if we're running red, we should run her as a finisher instead of Elspeth or another expensive bomb.
In this format I don't think holding a lot of mana up is beneficial. There are only 2 Cryptic Commands because holding 4 mana up when you have less than 6 lands out and hoping your opponent plays a bomb instead of stalls is not a situation you want to be in. If you hold 4 mana up they know you have cryptic. It's a powerful card only if it resolves, and it's easy to play around. 2 feels right, because it's there later in the game (statistically speaking), when you can hold 6 mana up.
Other than that, you can see it's very traditional: it's got the Spreading Seas package, the 2/2 Vendillion Clique + Jace package a lot of people like, 4 Field of Ruin, and some gideons. It's also got some wrath effects, a full set of Path to Exile, and some 1-of counterspells that you want to see at some point and be targets for snapping back later in the game.
This deck is very diverse because it branches out from the traditional UW control shell, adding a splash of red in response to a diverse, proactive approaching meta. The sideboard contains no red cards, because we don't really want to become a true USA deck. By keeping UW control's core and strong sideboard, and just adding a splash of red, we can deal with a lot more threats and close out the game faster.