@Flipdipple - List looks good, keep us posted on how the remands and shoal feels. I'm also interested in how necessary/functional the additional fetchlands are; there seems to be tension between the fetchlands working productively with Jace and counter-productively with and against Field of Ruins. In the past I've run as few as 1 Hallowed Fountain, and lately I've been playing with 3 just to have more fetchable lands in order to make Field of ruins as good as possible.
@Savage_Gaul - I will definitely agree that playing a list without Seas and Leak sounds great considering one of the main draws to white is Path to Exile, but I never really find it to be an issue in practice unless against mono color decks like elves, and usually we are favored in those types of matches anyways. It may get a little worse for us as players start adjusting manabases to take Field of Ruin's popularity across modern into consideration. It's also the reason why I really wanted to run the 6th LD land. I can also say that Shadow of Doubt also always sounds great in theory, but is rarely great in practice. Every now and then you'll counter a fetch and draw a card and it feels great, or whenever you get paired against TitanShift you feel like the smartest person alive, but everywhere else it's usually a really bad Think Twice.
***Edit for Report -
Despite the fact that I should be studying, I managed to get in some matches here and there online in the tournament practice room. Faced a lot of junk and never dropped a game in those like 5ish matches, but against the 6 real decks I went up against I went 5-1 losing to Grixis Control to end my undefeated streak.
List is the same as my last post, here it is again for reference:
Deck performs pretty well and doesn't seem to miss the cryptics. There was a a few times where I didn't think I was going to be able to win by not having Detention Sphere in the deck, but then JtMS won me the game anyways (against bridge). Mana performs excellently.
My only loss was to the grixis, as I said, they outplayed the **** out of me game 1 or stumbled into an awesome line. Very interesting game, and a lot to be learned. When I hit their only red source with a field, they fetched out an island, next turn they dropped a Scalding Tarn and fetched a Steam Vents. I dropped the GQ I was sandbagging, hit the vents and they fetched out a mountain :O. Got wrecked by a few lighthouse activations and couldn't keep up with the 4x Kolaghans Commands + snap Commands.
G2 I got out early with a JtMS, easy street. They did hit my Field of Ruins with a Crumble to dust though, that felt like it could have cost mme the game if I wasn't already far ahead, and it's something to keep in mind if you need to tap out, it would be preferable to hold open the field so they can't hit it.
G3 Was down to the wire, they beat me with 20 seconds left on the clock, 3 snaps in play, 0 cards in hand and no red sources left to my flipped Azcanta, Double Colonnade, active JtMS and 2 Cards in hand. I think i made a couple mistakes during this game, specifically one turn where I recast Gideon of the Trials 3 times when it got remanded twice and leaked on the 3rd cast. I definitely could have waited another turn.
All in all, considering my leaks were dead almost all 3 games, I had no cryptics and only 1 Dispel plus getting outplayed and making some mistakes, I think the deck has legs. The only thing I wished was that I had a couple more dispels in the side.
Hey all, new here. Long time lurker in the forum. Recently got all the cards needed for my UW deck. Wanted an opinion of my list. I am really debating on whether the number of lands should be 24 or 25 and whether 4 Cryptic Commands are too many. I see that a lot of people here run Search for Azcanta, but I haven't really seen anyone play As Foretold with AV. Is it viewed as too slow?
@Satch89 - Ancestral is pretty slow if you aren't casting it off as foretold, it hasn't seen any success in control lists really. The as foretolds seem interesting in your list, but I'm still worried that you're going to end up with dead ancestrals a lot of the time. Jace does make them a little better, in my mind because you can brainstorm them away but I feel like that isn't great justification because you really want cards that allow you stabilize to play the Jace, and Ancestral just doesn't help there.
Another issue with Ancestral is that it takes up slots that would normally belong to Serum Visions, and Serum is a card that does actually help you set up turns for your planeswalkers and other big plays. Serum is also the card that allows U/W control decks to drop from 26-25 lands, so I definitely do not suggest going to 24 without serum; With only 4 cantrips in the deck (no walls, no azcantas, etc) I recommend moving up to 26 land.
Cryptic Command looks okay as a 4-of in the list if you move up to 26 lands because you don't have a ton of other 4 drops, I prefer to have no more than 8 4cmc+ spells, so maybe I'd recommend dropping the 4th cryptic for the 26th land. I don't think Cryptic is in the best it's ever been, so I'd err on the side of too few than too many, but I'm really not overly confident on that, so take it with a grain of salt.
So yea, overall my suggestion would be -4 Ancestral -2 As Foretold - 1 Cryptic +4 Serum, +2 Wall of Omens, +1 Wrath effect. But, I realize that you want to work with the As foretold and Ancestral and if you are insistent on testing them out my suggestion is -1 Cryptic - Gideon Jura +1 Jace,TMS +1 Island.
Hello all, wanted to post about my FNM, and maybe get some advice, It went pretty well, from my vantage point.
First Round was against a R/U Pyro with all basic lands, he had a slow start and I was sweeping by turn 4.
Second Round was against U/W Miracles, I negated his first JTMS, and was able to protect Jura from path and smash in to win game one. Game 2 he tried to resolve a miracle entreat and I have negate mana open, he was pretty frustrated with his deck choice and we played a "fun" game for round 3 with his jund deck, he still had issues. 2-0
Third Round was Death and Taxes, this was the hard one, against the shop pro, game one he steam rolled me, game two I stabilized early and all was well, game 3 was a battle, i'd verdict he'd flicker, came down to I top decked settle, he top decked leyline and played 1st main phase, I die. 1-2
Round 4 was against living end, game one he seemed real nervous, and he fetched and shocked at the end of my turn and then almost forgot to cycle, I was able to spreading seas and attack his mana to the point he had to living end in his turn and I had verdict at the right times. Then game 2 I board in RiP and had it in my opening had,between RiP and Ghost Quarter with crucible out he had no answer and scooped. 2-0
All in all not bad, I had fun, tried not to be a jerk, but did say to the living end player "hey you have enough blue to cast cryptic" at that point he had living end twice in to verdict so he was a bit salty, also have to say I hate living end and was pretty happy to shut his deck down.
I don't own any JTMS and I'm not sure it's worth it for me to purchase for this deck, maybe i'll open one in M25 :}
Death and Taxes seems like a weird matchup, Deck List to follow, any suggestions are welcome.
I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on Search for Azcanta in the Mind Sculptor lists. I don't own any Search yet (was on hiatus until the last few weeks), but I can see how powerful it is of a value engine. Jace (which I do own) is of course one of the valueiest engines out there, but I can see running some kind of split of the two. What's been working well for people?
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I think search got a lot worse with jace on the table.
Jeskai probably has to still play atleast 1-2 searches, as they need the card advantage, but for UW it may depend on the build.
I could easily see not playing any and being fine.
I agree that Azcanta looks far least appealing now. I'm not sure that I would run a list without at least 1 copy, but yea, I'm way least high on the card now than I have been since it was spoiled (I spent a lot of time advocating for up to 3 copies).
In my experience so far, you often don't want search clogging up your hand or your Mana because you just want to be impacting the board so that you can safely resolve Jace. However, I'm not yet sold on 3 Jace being correct yet either because of the way that it warps your play, and deckbuilding choices such as we're discussing about Azcanta. If we want to be on less than 3 Jace, I could still see wanting 1 Azcanta for sure, and probably 2.
I’ve got different experiences from you guys. IMHO, Azcanta is at its best. Way better positioned than the same Jace. It’s basically the glue which keeps the deck togheter. Against both Combo and aggressive strategies - where playing a 4cc sorcery speed spell is just nonsensical. And also against Jund it won me much more games than the planeswalker, because it isn’t affected by Bolts and haste creatures. I’ll definitely pack two of them, plus the usual 3 Jace. They complements each other quite well.
I agree with you on this one. SFA is faster, harder to remove, and can generate value in Instant Speed once it flips. It also searches for JTMS himself or any other thing we might need. I wouldn't play less than 2 now even with 2 or 3 JTMS main deck.
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Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
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Jace is two turns faster than Search when in top deck mode. The same logic applies to Cryptic Command. You get immediate value out of the card, and that's huge when being under pressure. Also, I have the feeling that people use Jace's Brainstorm ability not enough. The play "Jace, BS, he dies" is actually pretty good, not amazing, but still above average (I reiterate: above average!!); but if you Jace, fate seal and it dies anyway, yeah, that's just a wasted Jace TMS, and it happens quite frequently in a Lightning Bolt, Bloodbraid Elf, Reality Smasher metagame. Fatesealing in the dark in account of Lightning Bolt (and nothing else) is an overly risky play.
Looks unconventional, but I'm just throwing this out here, because I want to hear what you think about it, feel free to tear it apart, haha.
A few comments on card choices:
I think weak cantrips like Wall of Omens, Spreading Seas, Remand, and Shadow of Doubt are complete garbage compared to "real" cantrips like Anticipate, Serum Visions and Opt. These cards are actually getting there, there is no durdling around.
8 Fetchlands is the norm for every 3 color deck, yet people refuse to play more than 4 Fetchlands in U/W control. With Jace TMS AND Logic Knot involved (maybe I should only run 3 Logic Knots, 4 is really pushing it), I see absolutely no reason to run less than 8. You can get Burn to above 50% very easily actually. Maybe the matchup is close, but you are in no way an underdog.
Two of the best cards I decided to omit for the time being are probably Spell Snare and Detention Sphere. The price for running Detention Sphere is - of course - that we would have to make cuts in the permission/disruption department. I think this is not necessarily where we want to be. If there is a problematic permanent that we need to get rid of (like Jace, Blood Moon, Chalice, Lilliana) there is still the gamble that get there with the means that we have available in the main like Vendilion Clique, Cryptics, and generic counterspells. I think it's wiser to shore this weakness up with an appropriate SB.
Spell Snare, I think, is highly dependent on the metagame. If Storm and Burn rises to the top again, then I'm definitely making the switch, but as long as Bloodbraid Elf and Jace decks are the top tier decks, I stick to two mana counterspells and a high cantrip count (six instead of just four)
Well... I don't agree with most of your thoughts there. Just my opinions, of course, but there they go:
Of course Jace and Cryptic Command have an immediate higher impact. I agree with you on that. That's why they cost more mana. We usually play them by the way. But in Modern it's much easier to cast a 1U spell than a 2UU or a 1UUU mana spell. We don't really know for sure where the format is going, but in the Modern we know now, there are a really high number of matches in which you just can't tap out for Jace. In others, Cryptic Command is just clunky and slow. SFA on the other hand is much easier to resolve in U mirrors, and reasonable to deploy vs fast opponents. Although we have to tap the same amount of lands to activate Azcanta, we can do it at Instant Speed, what allows us to generate Card Advantage in our opponent's end step, when they can no longer play some of their high impact spells (Primeval Titan, Past in Flames, Karn or JTMS to name a few). I think each one of these cards is better on the right circunstances. I like SFA enough to play them, and I think it's reasonable to cut them now with JTMS on the format. But SFA is better than JTMS or Cryptic in a really good amount of circunstances.
I don't agree with your statement about the cantrips either. Yes, Opt, SV and Anticipate are better at finding specific cards, but Wall of Omens, Spreading Seas, Remand and Shadow of Doubt are cantrips that impact the board and/or disrupt your opponent. Wall protects you and your walkers (what is really valuable in UW that usually plays little spot removal count), Seas disrupts your opponent's manabase, Shadow of Doubt also disrupts your opponent's manabase and counters tutor effects, Remand delays your opponent's plays, while all of those cantrips you listed "do nothing" except drawing cards. They don't impact the board and don't disrupt your opponent. So they are essencially Tempo Loss. You're trying to find something on your deck while your opponent is just advancing his board, beating your face, and playing something that is already impacting the game.
Along with that, your deck has too many 3 and 4 drops. You have 12 cards that cost 4 mana. Your Snapcasters plays will probably cost 4 mana too most of the times, since you have only 6 spells that cost 1 mana, and you're probably not planning to use the Ambush Viper mode that frequently (in which case, Snappy would be just worse than a Wall of Omens in most cases). Too many Cryptics, Verdicts, JTMS, Cliques and Snappys IMO. Results are: your decks seems really clunky to me. You're probably doing "nothing" turns 1 and 2, to maybe do something on turn 3 or 4. Doesn't seem like a good plan to me in Modern, unless you're planning to win on the spot on turns 3 or 4 (like Storm and Ad Nauseam do), or play something much scarier than a Verdict or a Jace (like Karn, Ugin or Ulamog). I believe you'll too oftenly have a hand like 2 JTMS, 1 Cryptic, 1 Verdict and some lands while your opponent is just crushing you with fast creatures for 3 turns.
So... IMO, your deck can't reliably beat plays like turn 1 Aether Vial (specially with Cavern of Souls), Goblin Guide into Eidolon, discard spell into Bob, discard spell into Bitterblossom, turn 2 Blood Moon on the draw (specially with your higher number of fetch lands), Elves, Revolting Zoo, Hollow One and Dredge, to name a few.
You are going to run out of fetchable lands with 8 fetchable lands and 12 fetches by virtue of drawing fetchable lands and by your opponents playing their own field/gq. 4-6 blue fetches seems like the sweet spot.
If you want to play 4 snapcasters you need 4 opts minimum.
I don't like mana leak though some people still play it.
I have played 4 logic knot in jeskai and cried in the sideboard games when my opponent opened on turn 1 relic. People will bring in grave hate vs you and logic knot isnt something you always side out. That's something to think about as multiple knots have other unforseen costs. I don't think you have enough 1 cmc cards to play 4 knots anyways.
Telling time is much much worse than anticipate unless you are playing Miracles. That opinion written in this thread is just wrong, and like they never played telling time before. Both cards are weak though.
I don't like cutting search for Azcanta, remember that card turns into a mana source for this mana hungry deck. It's not just a slow filtering and a value engine.
I think that list would be worth testing if you cut some of the knots and all of the anticipates for 1 cmc can trips and a snare and/or some other 1-2 cmc interactive card. I'd cut something to play a search or two. Playing 1 settle the wreckage over the 4th verdict is probably better since you play 4 cryptic and 4 snapcasters.
Currently the sorcery speed cards have proven their worth, so trying to go more instant speed will be met with criticism.
How have you guys been doing trying to fight opposing Jaces? I feel like I needed to go back to Jeskai in order to have a better game against other Jace decks, but I'd rather stick to UW if I could.
I feel like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is really important now to try to fight opposing Jaces. If I stick to UW, I'm probably trying something like 2 Gideon of the Trials, 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, although it's probably too heavy on PWs.
You are going to run out of fetchable lands with 8 fetchable lands and 12 fetches by virtue of drawing fetchable lands and by your opponents playing their own field/gq. 4-6 blue fetches seems like the sweet spot.
If you want to play 4 snapcasters you need 4 opts minimum.
I don't like mana leak though some people still play it.
I have played 4 logic knot in jeskai and cried in the sideboard games when my opponent opened on turn 1 relic. People will bring in grave hate vs you and logic knot isnt something you always side out. That's something to think about as multiple knots have other unforseen costs. I don't think you have enough 1 cmc cards to play 4 knots anyways.
Telling time is much much worse than anticipate unless you are playing Miracles. That opinion written in this thread is just wrong, and like they never played telling time before. Both cards are weak though.
I don't like cutting search for Azcanta, remember that card turns into a mana source for this mana hungry deck. It's not just a slow filtering and a value engine.
I think that list would be worth testing if you cut some of the knots and all of the anticipates for 1 cmc can trips and a snare and/or some other 1-2 cmc interactive card. I'd cut something to play a search or two. Playing 1 settle the wreckage over the 4th verdict is probably better since you play 4 cryptic and 4 snapcasters.
Currently the sorcery speed cards have proven their worth, so trying to go more instant speed will be met with criticism.
In a deck full of fetches, I do prefer Telling Time over Anticipate, because if you see 2 cards you want out of the three, you can keep one at the top and draw the other one. If you want only 1 of the cards, you can draw it, set any other one at top of library and than shuffle it away with a fetch land. Anticipate never gives you such options. If you see 2 good cards, you must bottom one of them and keep one.
Of course the fetch land shuffle screws your deck in the sense that you might draw the worst card you put at the bottom with the Telling Time. But if you have more ways to manipulate your library, Telling Time seems better to me regardless.
They are both bad in a Control deck IMO, though. The format is so fast that we can't really afford to spend 2 mana on a "do-nothing" card. It doesn't disrupt our opponent, and it doesn't really help us pull ahead, so... I see little point in playing it on a Control deck. If they did dig deeper, maybe they could be worth, by trying to find our best tools in a given match-up. But digging 3 cards for two mana doesn't seem enoughly good for me. Impulse could be good enough, maybe.
I do think both are reasonable on Combo decks though, because they are good at trying to find specific cards.
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I’ve got different experiences from you guys. IMHO, Azcanta is at its best. Way better positioned than the same Jace. It’s basically the glue which keeps the deck togheter. Against both Combo and aggressive strategies - where playing a 4cc sorcery speed spell is just nonsensical. And also against Jund it won me much more games than the planeswalker, because it isn’t affected by Bolts and haste creatures. I’ll definitely pack two of them, plus the usual 3 Jace. They complements each other quite well.
This comment is already starting to get buried, but I definitely agree with you. Search is better than ever in this deck right now -- I've actually considered a 3rd. It's because there are so many matchups where you can't play Jace but you CAN play Search. And Search on T2 on the play is so good against opponents playing Jace. Non-blue decks just aren't playing Fields or Ghost Quarters right now, so the Sunken Ruin mode is sweet and even game breaking. I've never been unimpressed by Search to be honest (even if it's only subtly good sometimes).
As for other cards, I do prefer Telling Time to Anticipate right now, but I honestly wouldn't be caught dead playing either of them. I also think Gideon Ally is well positioned right now. Cryptic has been really meh lately too, but it's necessary for the Lili of the Veils going around.
I also have been playing 1 less Wrath in the main for a little bit and I'm absolutely sure its wrong. 4 seems to be the right number for now. Settle has been decent tho, maybe a 2/2 split with Verdict.
I’ve got different experiences from you guys. IMHO, Azcanta is at its best. Way better positioned than the same Jace. It’s basically the glue which keeps the deck togheter. Against both Combo and aggressive strategies - where playing a 4cc sorcery speed spell is just nonsensical. And also against Jund it won me much more games than the planeswalker, because it isn’t affected by Bolts and haste creatures. I’ll definitely pack two of them, plus the usual 3 Jace. They complements each other quite well.
This comment is already starting to get buried, but I definitely agree with you. Search is better than ever in this deck right now -- I've actually considered a 3rd. It's because there are so many matchups where you can't play Jace but you CAN play Search. And Search on T2 on the play is so good against opponents playing Jace. Non-blue decks just aren't playing Fields or Ghost Quarters right now, so the Sunken Ruin mode is sweet and even game breaking. I've never been unimpressed by Search to be honest (even if it's only subtly good sometimes).
As for other cards, I do prefer Telling Time to Anticipate right now, but I honestly wouldn't be caught dead playing either of them. I also think Gideon Ally is well positioned right now. Cryptic has been really meh lately too, but it's necessary for the Lili of the Veils going around.
I also have been playing 1 less Wrath in the main for a little bit and I'm absolutely sure its wrong. 4 seems to be the right number for now. Settle has been decent tho, maybe a 2/2 split with Verdict.
I've been running 2 verdict and 1 settle and it's been working fine. I might add another verdict or settle to the sideboard just in case. I think you should only play 3 wrath effects in the mainboard and one of them needs to be settle - exiling instead of destroying is really good against dredge, B/R Hallowed One Bloodghasts, Wurmcoil Engine, Thrun, and Meddling Mages that pick Supreme Verdict.
To contribute to the other discussion Search is an amazing card and I've gone back to a 2 of. Search has single handedly won me games by giving me early card filtering/advantage, I can't tell you how many games I need a 4th or 5th land on a turn and I bin something like a 2nd jace instead of drawing it. This deck relies on lasting past turn 4-5 so if we can draw answers early on our win percentage chance skyrockets. Also, SFA becomes mana advantage as well as it taps for blue, and also has end step card filtering.
Jace has more often been - fatesteal the opponent or brainstorm once or bounce 1 creature plus gain 3 life. It's still useful but if you can land a jace on turn 4 without worry you are probably ahead on board anyway. I also recommend a 1 of Gideon AoZ, one problem that I see with the deck sometimes is that we are just reacting to threats without actually presenting any. Lots of times I pop an AoZ and drop a 2/2 that chump blocks then I play a sweeper or cryptic the board state and now I'm up a creature. Most decks won't generate more than 1 creature per turn, especially if they are in topdeck mode and having to cast 2 spells in order to deal with 1 card is mega advantage.
As for the Shadow of Doubts it's been medium thusfar, but it has completely swung games when I can deny mana. I even beat an R/G Ponza deck that fetched and then I spreading seas'd their only forest with a utopia sprawl. That set them back 3 turns and they never recovered. It also punishes greedy 3 color decks and makes the Tron matchup into a complete joke. I'll keep testing but i've not been disappointed to cast it more often than not, even if its just for the cantrip.
I definitely agree with those who support Gideon4 right now, and perhaps the reason why Azcanta has been subpar for me is because of how heavily I'm leaning on being a tap-out walker list. Gideon4 and Jace both require a fair amount of strategic positioning and Azcanta just doesn't lend itself to that kind of game plan. I guess if your game plan is mostly reactive, leaning more on Counterspells then Azcanta is the exact kind of card you want. It's a great card and a great win condition, but I think I prefer the 4 Mana walker plan, at least for now; Gideon 4 is just so good against the Bloodbraid and Jace decks.
For the same reason as above, Celestial Colonnade has taken a huge hit in my mind. Trying to position for a turn 4-6 walker his massively hindered by ETB taped lands, and if you ever get a Jace in play there never seems to be a good time to play one tapped because I almost always want to be playing a fetchland or field so I can shuffle the brainstorm. It also just so rarely comes down to killing the opponent with it anymore. Once I've had a Jace or Gideon4 active for a few turns, the game is already over and closing out with colonnade just hasn't been a priority.
I definitely go down on the Knots, maybe 3, because the alternatives are weak (Leak and Negate). I hate Mana Leak, too, but I'm pretty confident that it's better than Negate.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is another 4cc spell, I hope that is not the solution to combat Jace; and Gideon of the Trial is just a dog to PtE. The best way to fight Jace in U/W colors are 2cc counterspells (Logic Knot, Mana Leak, Negate), Vendilion Clique, Detention Sphere, Snap beats, and Cryptics. That's it. Sad, but true. But I don't think Jeskai is better, either. They have a fragile manabase, less Field of Ruins, less countermagic to preemptively stop Jace (they have to cut something to play these Bolts). Pick your poison, I guess. But this is essentially the mirror, it's not that this problem is one-sided.
I wasn't trying to suggest that Gideon Ally is the best answer to Jace, only that he's well positioned right now. That said, if you land a Gideon before they can land their Jace, it's very devastating. Also, playing a Negate mainboard has been pretty commonplace for a while, and I think I'd play Knots and a Negate before adding Leaks at this point. That said, I wouldn't play more than 2 Knots.
In a deck full of fetches, I do prefer Telling Time over Anticipate, because if you see 2 cards you want out of the three, you can keep one at the top and draw the other one. If you want only 1 of the cards, you can draw it, set any other one at top of library and than shuffle it away with a fetch land. Anticipate never gives you such options. If you see 2 good cards, you must bottom one of them and keep one.
I played telling time in scapeshift, which had as many shuffle effects and it was still bad. If you don't have a shuffle the card is just awful. The one redeeming quality of the card was that it was serviceable against discard, it's like a really bad brain storm.
Hey guys, i dont play UW but i need to know which cards you cut to include 4 jace? Whats gone now?
There is no clear consensus yet; neither on what to cut or how many Jace. 4 doesn't seem popular, generally 3, sometimes 2.
Common cuts include: Sphinx Rev, Gideon Jura, 2nd Search for Azcanta, Glimmer of Genius, crucible of worlds.... generally the other Card Advantage cards. I may have missed some, but I think you get the idea.
Pretty dead around here lately. I guess everyone was hoping we'd have something to talk about post-MOCS?
I've been playing around a bit with my zero cryptic command list, and it feels right so far. I'm much preferring opening up the 4 drop to JTMS and Gideon 4 while keeping most of the rest of the deck in check. If we intend to keep Rev out of the list, I feel like snapcaster numbers should be at an all time low because it isn't going to be as high-impact off the top in a Thoughtseize, IOK world. Still nice with Secure the Wastes though.
Anyone have any thoughts on the MOCS meta? I think we at least have a reasonable idea of what stock jund lists are going to look like now. I also really liked Matignon's use of Teferi, interesting way to stop BBE cascade, can't get hit by bolt, push or IOK, blocks a lot of creatures in the format, and pressures walkers reasonably well. Also, Flash Wall of Omens? lol
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@Savage_Gaul - I will definitely agree that playing a list without Seas and Leak sounds great considering one of the main draws to white is Path to Exile, but I never really find it to be an issue in practice unless against mono color decks like elves, and usually we are favored in those types of matches anyways. It may get a little worse for us as players start adjusting manabases to take Field of Ruin's popularity across modern into consideration. It's also the reason why I really wanted to run the 6th LD land. I can also say that Shadow of Doubt also always sounds great in theory, but is rarely great in practice. Every now and then you'll counter a fetch and draw a card and it feels great, or whenever you get paired against TitanShift you feel like the smartest person alive, but everywhere else it's usually a really bad Think Twice.
***Edit for Report -
Despite the fact that I should be studying, I managed to get in some matches here and there online in the tournament practice room. Faced a lot of junk and never dropped a game in those like 5ish matches, but against the 6 real decks I went up against I went 5-1 losing to Grixis Control to end my undefeated streak.
List is the same as my last post, here it is again for reference:
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Wall of Omens
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Secure the Wastes
Walkers (7)
2 Gideon of the Trials
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Dig (5)
4 Serum Visions
1 Search for Azcanta
Interaction (17)
4 Path to Exile
1 Oust
3 Mana Leak
1 logic knot
1 Negate
4 Spreading Seas
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Settle the Wreckage
4 Field of Ruin
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
4 Island
3 Plains
2 Stony Silence
1 Negate
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Blessed alliance
1 Dispel
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Celestial Purge
1 Surgical extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Timely Reinforcements
Deck performs pretty well and doesn't seem to miss the cryptics. There was a a few times where I didn't think I was going to be able to win by not having Detention Sphere in the deck, but then JtMS won me the game anyways (against bridge). Mana performs excellently.
My only loss was to the grixis, as I said, they outplayed the **** out of me game 1 or stumbled into an awesome line. Very interesting game, and a lot to be learned. When I hit their only red source with a field, they fetched out an island, next turn they dropped a Scalding Tarn and fetched a Steam Vents. I dropped the GQ I was sandbagging, hit the vents and they fetched out a mountain :O. Got wrecked by a few lighthouse activations and couldn't keep up with the 4x Kolaghans Commands + snap Commands.
G2 I got out early with a JtMS, easy street. They did hit my Field of Ruins with a Crumble to dust though, that felt like it could have cost mme the game if I wasn't already far ahead, and it's something to keep in mind if you need to tap out, it would be preferable to hold open the field so they can't hit it.
G3 Was down to the wire, they beat me with 20 seconds left on the clock, 3 snaps in play, 0 cards in hand and no red sources left to my flipped Azcanta, Double Colonnade, active JtMS and 2 Cards in hand. I think i made a couple mistakes during this game, specifically one turn where I recast Gideon of the Trials 3 times when it got remanded twice and leaked on the 3rd cast. I definitely could have waited another turn.
All in all, considering my leaks were dead almost all 3 games, I had no cryptics and only 1 Dispel plus getting outplayed and making some mistakes, I think the deck has legs. The only thing I wished was that I had a couple more dispels in the side.
2 Snapcaster Mage
//Soccery
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Supreme Verdict
//Instants
1 Blessed Alliance
4 Cryptic Command
1 Logic Knot
1 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
1 Secure the Wastes
2 Spell Snare
//Mana
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
2 Mystic Gate
3 Plains
2 As Foretold
2 Detention Sphere
4 Spreading Seas
//Artifacts
1 Gideon Jura
2 Gideon of the Trials
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Celestial Purge
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Condemn
2 Dispel
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
1 Restore Balance
2 Stony Silence
1 Wrath of God
Another issue with Ancestral is that it takes up slots that would normally belong to Serum Visions, and Serum is a card that does actually help you set up turns for your planeswalkers and other big plays. Serum is also the card that allows U/W control decks to drop from 26-25 lands, so I definitely do not suggest going to 24 without serum; With only 4 cantrips in the deck (no walls, no azcantas, etc) I recommend moving up to 26 land.
Cryptic Command looks okay as a 4-of in the list if you move up to 26 lands because you don't have a ton of other 4 drops, I prefer to have no more than 8 4cmc+ spells, so maybe I'd recommend dropping the 4th cryptic for the 26th land. I don't think Cryptic is in the best it's ever been, so I'd err on the side of too few than too many, but I'm really not overly confident on that, so take it with a grain of salt.
So yea, overall my suggestion would be -4 Ancestral -2 As Foretold - 1 Cryptic +4 Serum, +2 Wall of Omens, +1 Wrath effect. But, I realize that you want to work with the As foretold and Ancestral and if you are insistent on testing them out my suggestion is -1 Cryptic - Gideon Jura +1 Jace,TMS +1 Island.
Let us know how it works out, cheers!
First Round was against a R/U Pyro with all basic lands, he had a slow start and I was sweeping by turn 4.
Second Round was against U/W Miracles, I negated his first JTMS, and was able to protect Jura from path and smash in to win game one. Game 2 he tried to resolve a miracle entreat and I have negate mana open, he was pretty frustrated with his deck choice and we played a "fun" game for round 3 with his jund deck, he still had issues. 2-0
Third Round was Death and Taxes, this was the hard one, against the shop pro, game one he steam rolled me, game two I stabilized early and all was well, game 3 was a battle, i'd verdict he'd flicker, came down to I top decked settle, he top decked leyline and played 1st main phase, I die. 1-2
Round 4 was against living end, game one he seemed real nervous, and he fetched and shocked at the end of my turn and then almost forgot to cycle, I was able to spreading seas and attack his mana to the point he had to living end in his turn and I had verdict at the right times. Then game 2 I board in RiP and had it in my opening had,between RiP and Ghost Quarter with crucible out he had no answer and scooped. 2-0
All in all not bad, I had fun, tried not to be a jerk, but did say to the living end player "hey you have enough blue to cast cryptic" at that point he had living end twice in to verdict so he was a bit salty, also have to say I hate living end and was pretty happy to shut his deck down.
I don't own any JTMS and I'm not sure it's worth it for me to purchase for this deck, maybe i'll open one in M25 :}
Death and Taxes seems like a weird matchup, Deck List to follow, any suggestions are welcome.
Thanks!
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Wall of Omens
Artifacts
1 Crucible of Worlds"61 Card Special"
Instants(12)
3 Cryptic Command
2 Logic Knot
2 Negate
4 Path to Exile
1 Sphinx's Revelation
Sorcery's(7)
4 Serum Visions
3 Supreme Verdict
Enchantments(7)
2 Detention Sphere
1 Runed Halo
1 Search for Azcanta
4 Spreading Seas
1 Gideon Jura
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands(25)
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
3 Plains
1 Prairie Stream
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Celestial Purge
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Condemn
2 Dispel
2 Rest in Peace
1 Runed Halo
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Stony Silence
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
U/W Control
Mono U Tron
Standard
U/G Fish
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Jeskai probably has to still play atleast 1-2 searches, as they need the card advantage, but for UW it may depend on the build.
I could easily see not playing any and being fine.
In my experience so far, you often don't want search clogging up your hand or your Mana because you just want to be impacting the board so that you can safely resolve Jace. However, I'm not yet sold on 3 Jace being correct yet either because of the way that it warps your play, and deckbuilding choices such as we're discussing about Azcanta. If we want to be on less than 3 Jace, I could still see wanting 1 Azcanta for sure, and probably 2.
I agree with you on this one. SFA is faster, harder to remove, and can generate value in Instant Speed once it flips. It also searches for JTMS himself or any other thing we might need. I wouldn't play less than 2 now even with 2 or 3 JTMS main deck.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Well... I don't agree with most of your thoughts there. Just my opinions, of course, but there they go:
Of course Jace and Cryptic Command have an immediate higher impact. I agree with you on that. That's why they cost more mana. We usually play them by the way. But in Modern it's much easier to cast a 1U spell than a 2UU or a 1UUU mana spell. We don't really know for sure where the format is going, but in the Modern we know now, there are a really high number of matches in which you just can't tap out for Jace. In others, Cryptic Command is just clunky and slow. SFA on the other hand is much easier to resolve in U mirrors, and reasonable to deploy vs fast opponents. Although we have to tap the same amount of lands to activate Azcanta, we can do it at Instant Speed, what allows us to generate Card Advantage in our opponent's end step, when they can no longer play some of their high impact spells (Primeval Titan, Past in Flames, Karn or JTMS to name a few). I think each one of these cards is better on the right circunstances. I like SFA enough to play them, and I think it's reasonable to cut them now with JTMS on the format. But SFA is better than JTMS or Cryptic in a really good amount of circunstances.
I don't agree with your statement about the cantrips either. Yes, Opt, SV and Anticipate are better at finding specific cards, but Wall of Omens, Spreading Seas, Remand and Shadow of Doubt are cantrips that impact the board and/or disrupt your opponent. Wall protects you and your walkers (what is really valuable in UW that usually plays little spot removal count), Seas disrupts your opponent's manabase, Shadow of Doubt also disrupts your opponent's manabase and counters tutor effects, Remand delays your opponent's plays, while all of those cantrips you listed "do nothing" except drawing cards. They don't impact the board and don't disrupt your opponent. So they are essencially Tempo Loss. You're trying to find something on your deck while your opponent is just advancing his board, beating your face, and playing something that is already impacting the game.
Along with that, your deck has too many 3 and 4 drops. You have 12 cards that cost 4 mana. Your Snapcasters plays will probably cost 4 mana too most of the times, since you have only 6 spells that cost 1 mana, and you're probably not planning to use the Ambush Viper mode that frequently (in which case, Snappy would be just worse than a Wall of Omens in most cases). Too many Cryptics, Verdicts, JTMS, Cliques and Snappys IMO. Results are: your decks seems really clunky to me. You're probably doing "nothing" turns 1 and 2, to maybe do something on turn 3 or 4. Doesn't seem like a good plan to me in Modern, unless you're planning to win on the spot on turns 3 or 4 (like Storm and Ad Nauseam do), or play something much scarier than a Verdict or a Jace (like Karn, Ugin or Ulamog). I believe you'll too oftenly have a hand like 2 JTMS, 1 Cryptic, 1 Verdict and some lands while your opponent is just crushing you with fast creatures for 3 turns.
So... IMO, your deck can't reliably beat plays like turn 1 Aether Vial (specially with Cavern of Souls), Goblin Guide into Eidolon, discard spell into Bob, discard spell into Bitterblossom, turn 2 Blood Moon on the draw (specially with your higher number of fetch lands), Elves, Revolting Zoo, Hollow One and Dredge, to name a few.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
If you want to play 4 snapcasters you need 4 opts minimum.
I don't like mana leak though some people still play it.
I have played 4 logic knot in jeskai and cried in the sideboard games when my opponent opened on turn 1 relic. People will bring in grave hate vs you and logic knot isnt something you always side out. That's something to think about as multiple knots have other unforseen costs. I don't think you have enough 1 cmc cards to play 4 knots anyways.
Telling time is much much worse than anticipate unless you are playing Miracles. That opinion written in this thread is just wrong, and like they never played telling time before. Both cards are weak though.
I don't like cutting search for Azcanta, remember that card turns into a mana source for this mana hungry deck. It's not just a slow filtering and a value engine.
I think that list would be worth testing if you cut some of the knots and all of the anticipates for 1 cmc can trips and a snare and/or some other 1-2 cmc interactive card. I'd cut something to play a search or two. Playing 1 settle the wreckage over the 4th verdict is probably better since you play 4 cryptic and 4 snapcasters.
Currently the sorcery speed cards have proven their worth, so trying to go more instant speed will be met with criticism.
I feel like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is really important now to try to fight opposing Jaces. If I stick to UW, I'm probably trying something like 2 Gideon of the Trials, 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, although it's probably too heavy on PWs.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
In a deck full of fetches, I do prefer Telling Time over Anticipate, because if you see 2 cards you want out of the three, you can keep one at the top and draw the other one. If you want only 1 of the cards, you can draw it, set any other one at top of library and than shuffle it away with a fetch land. Anticipate never gives you such options. If you see 2 good cards, you must bottom one of them and keep one.
Of course the fetch land shuffle screws your deck in the sense that you might draw the worst card you put at the bottom with the Telling Time. But if you have more ways to manipulate your library, Telling Time seems better to me regardless.
They are both bad in a Control deck IMO, though. The format is so fast that we can't really afford to spend 2 mana on a "do-nothing" card. It doesn't disrupt our opponent, and it doesn't really help us pull ahead, so... I see little point in playing it on a Control deck. If they did dig deeper, maybe they could be worth, by trying to find our best tools in a given match-up. But digging 3 cards for two mana doesn't seem enoughly good for me. Impulse could be good enough, maybe.
I do think both are reasonable on Combo decks though, because they are good at trying to find specific cards.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
This comment is already starting to get buried, but I definitely agree with you. Search is better than ever in this deck right now -- I've actually considered a 3rd. It's because there are so many matchups where you can't play Jace but you CAN play Search. And Search on T2 on the play is so good against opponents playing Jace. Non-blue decks just aren't playing Fields or Ghost Quarters right now, so the Sunken Ruin mode is sweet and even game breaking. I've never been unimpressed by Search to be honest (even if it's only subtly good sometimes).
As for other cards, I do prefer Telling Time to Anticipate right now, but I honestly wouldn't be caught dead playing either of them. I also think Gideon Ally is well positioned right now. Cryptic has been really meh lately too, but it's necessary for the Lili of the Veils going around.
I also have been playing 1 less Wrath in the main for a little bit and I'm absolutely sure its wrong. 4 seems to be the right number for now. Settle has been decent tho, maybe a 2/2 split with Verdict.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I've been running 2 verdict and 1 settle and it's been working fine. I might add another verdict or settle to the sideboard just in case. I think you should only play 3 wrath effects in the mainboard and one of them needs to be settle - exiling instead of destroying is really good against dredge, B/R Hallowed One Bloodghasts, Wurmcoil Engine, Thrun, and Meddling Mages that pick Supreme Verdict.
To contribute to the other discussion Search is an amazing card and I've gone back to a 2 of. Search has single handedly won me games by giving me early card filtering/advantage, I can't tell you how many games I need a 4th or 5th land on a turn and I bin something like a 2nd jace instead of drawing it. This deck relies on lasting past turn 4-5 so if we can draw answers early on our win percentage chance skyrockets. Also, SFA becomes mana advantage as well as it taps for blue, and also has end step card filtering.
Jace has more often been - fatesteal the opponent or brainstorm once or bounce 1 creature plus gain 3 life. It's still useful but if you can land a jace on turn 4 without worry you are probably ahead on board anyway. I also recommend a 1 of Gideon AoZ, one problem that I see with the deck sometimes is that we are just reacting to threats without actually presenting any. Lots of times I pop an AoZ and drop a 2/2 that chump blocks then I play a sweeper or cryptic the board state and now I'm up a creature. Most decks won't generate more than 1 creature per turn, especially if they are in topdeck mode and having to cast 2 spells in order to deal with 1 card is mega advantage.
As for the Shadow of Doubts it's been medium thusfar, but it has completely swung games when I can deny mana. I even beat an R/G Ponza deck that fetched and then I spreading seas'd their only forest with a utopia sprawl. That set them back 3 turns and they never recovered. It also punishes greedy 3 color decks and makes the Tron matchup into a complete joke. I'll keep testing but i've not been disappointed to cast it more often than not, even if its just for the cantrip.
For the same reason as above, Celestial Colonnade has taken a huge hit in my mind. Trying to position for a turn 4-6 walker his massively hindered by ETB taped lands, and if you ever get a Jace in play there never seems to be a good time to play one tapped because I almost always want to be playing a fetchland or field so I can shuffle the brainstorm. It also just so rarely comes down to killing the opponent with it anymore. Once I've had a Jace or Gideon4 active for a few turns, the game is already over and closing out with colonnade just hasn't been a priority.
I wasn't trying to suggest that Gideon Ally is the best answer to Jace, only that he's well positioned right now. That said, if you land a Gideon before they can land their Jace, it's very devastating. Also, playing a Negate mainboard has been pretty commonplace for a while, and I think I'd play Knots and a Negate before adding Leaks at this point. That said, I wouldn't play more than 2 Knots.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I played telling time in scapeshift, which had as many shuffle effects and it was still bad. If you don't have a shuffle the card is just awful. The one redeeming quality of the card was that it was serviceable against discard, it's like a really bad brain storm.
There is no clear consensus yet; neither on what to cut or how many Jace. 4 doesn't seem popular, generally 3, sometimes 2.
Common cuts include: Sphinx Rev, Gideon Jura, 2nd Search for Azcanta, Glimmer of Genius, crucible of worlds.... generally the other Card Advantage cards. I may have missed some, but I think you get the idea.
I've been playing around a bit with my zero cryptic command list, and it feels right so far. I'm much preferring opening up the 4 drop to JTMS and Gideon 4 while keeping most of the rest of the deck in check. If we intend to keep Rev out of the list, I feel like snapcaster numbers should be at an all time low because it isn't going to be as high-impact off the top in a Thoughtseize, IOK world. Still nice with Secure the Wastes though.
Anyone have any thoughts on the MOCS meta? I think we at least have a reasonable idea of what stock jund lists are going to look like now. I also really liked Matignon's use of Teferi, interesting way to stop BBE cascade, can't get hit by bolt, push or IOK, blocks a lot of creatures in the format, and pressures walkers reasonably well. Also, Flash Wall of Omens? lol