I haven't played that ancestral list yet. Jace wasn't legal on mtgo at the time. It was just a thought experiment to see what a deck would like like to maximize ancestral.
I think drawing a bunch of cards on your Jace turn is totally fine since it let's you make more decisions on when you want to tap low with Jace. Though I guess you're right and I have too many turn 4+ cards. Perhaps I should cut a couple of serum visions and a cryptic for some cheaper interaction.
I have a 4 day weekend so I'll get a lot of matches in. But I'll probably get rid of my cards shortly after to sell into the hype. And m25 will reprint stuff like colonnade which is really expensive on mtgo. And I'll buy back later.
Best of luck to you on the speculation. I'm pretty bullish on Jace, so my gut's telling me his price goes up after a couple of major Modern events. I think most people haven't even tried to purchase the card and we're just seeing an initial run on the card by speculators.
It could be a bust like Ancestral Visions was, but after hearing watching Chipper and Nassif stream yesterday, he seems like the truth.
The first Prairie Stream has been excellent for me! A fetch-able "Tundra" in many parts of the game, awesome to fetch on endstep leaving more potential ETB untapped lands as draw options later. Someone in this forum questioned my use of a second Hallowed Fountain, and I replaced that with a PS to good results.
Can't relate. I got hosed multiple times in the early game by having a Stream and few to no basics -- especially sequencing etb-tapped lands first (like Colonnade and even Glacial Fortress in some situations) and trying to set up a Stream is not super easy to do. I tried it, and now I'm back on the 2nd Hallowed Fountain again.
I've also recently gone back to 2 Fountain. Over the past 6 months i've gone from 1 Hallowed Fountain (HF) to 2HF, to 1HF + 1 Irrigated, back to 1HF, to 1HF + Stream and now back to 2HF. My current thought is that we need at least 2 fetchable duals to help keep fetches live due to our own fields and our opponents, and we probably want them to be able to ETB as unconditionally as possible so it's either 2 HF, or 1 HF 1 Stream. I think it's close, but I think HF gets the nod. With Field becoming as ubiquitous as it is, it could even be correct to be on 3 fetchable duals. I have recently put more thought into running only 3 fetches, but now with Jace being unbanned, I just can't see that being the line, we want as many 'free' shuffles as we can, and flooded strand is about as free as they come.
Well... in my experience I ended up losing more games because I had to Bolt myself in order to Verdict turn 4, than I lost because the Stream entered tapped. But it seems really close, and HF surely has its uppersides.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
contrary to what I have previously said, it feat. no Walls or bunch of planeswalkers. Of course it isn’t an indicator, but I’ve spent my whole day testing this thing, and it may seriously be a thing. Two hints: the usual package against aggro (Snare, Path, Verdict, Snap maindeck, Condemns and Blessed Alliances in the sideboard), while hard counterspells + Vendilion Clique deals with Combo. Search for Azcanta is strong as hell against Combo, because it can be deployed on turn two (so, relatively safely) while Jace is strong against Midrange strategies. I’ve cut Seas completely, and I’m on 3 FoR + 2 GQuarters in the manabase, plus Crucible and Surgical postboard vs BigMana. Cryptic + Clique + Snapcaster + Negate seems strong enough to compensate the lack of Spreading Seas.
Obviously, take that as a grain of salt. More test incoming in the next week.
I quote myself. In two days worth of testing I confirmed my first impressions. Vendilion Clique in spite of Spreading Seas actually seems much less random than it looks. It really helps against other URx strategies, because it bypass Negate, it absorb a Bolt otherwise directed to Jace, and actually helps resolving our walker. Three copies seems worth it. Also against Tron they have a similar role Seas has (delaying their threats) plus beatdown instead of cycle. Azcanta + Jace is definitely haymacker.
Sounds intriguing, mind posting a list of what you're working on to look over?
Maybe its just me here, but cryptic looks much less appealing to me post-jace.
The more I think about it, the more I want 2 cmc counterspells, as the card advantage aspect of cryptic is less appealing now compared to its clunkiness and our now greater number of 4 drops.
I think 5 fetchlands and 4 serum visions is enough for 3 logic knots, and obviously, logic knot is more appealing here than a mana leak.
I'm not sure how much you've liked 3 mana gideon in this deck, but I can't help but feel he's still good enough to keep some number of, main or side. Do you miss (or expect to miss) them?
I’ve been tinkering with some builds in anticipation of how the meta will unfold over the next several weeks. I see that BennyHillz’s recent 5-0 is a fairly stock list with 2x Wall and 3x JtMS, the latter replacing Jura, Jace AoT, and a Search. He also ran a Terminus in place of the third Verdict, with six total wrath effects in the 75 (including Engineered Explosives).
That’s certainly one direction in which to take the deck—maybe even the best direction. Wall into Gideon OTT into Verdict is still an extremely strong progression against plenty of decks. However, some in this thread have voiced concern that BBE decks and other linear aggro decks with a prevalence of haste creatures might make Verdict look a little clunky. If that turns out to be the case, here’s the list I’ve put together that focuses on generating a beefier board state, allowing us to interact favorably with the linear aggro decks which aim to get in under Verdict, while presenting the potential for a strong clock against combo:
I haven’t drawn up a sideboard yet because its contents will be contingent on the main, which I’m not sure is a total mess or not.
It’s a bit strange: I started off with the idea of building around JtMS (extra fetches, 2x Wall, Secure the Wastes over Rev due to the utility of instant speed blockers, etc). But that line of thinking led me to Gideon, AoZ, which in turn led me to the full Gid Squad and only one copy of Modern’s new overlord. Strictly incorrect? That’s possible, but the Gideons have always been incredible for me, and this is the sort of shell in which AoZ could shine.
Any feedback? I’ll be testing over the long weekend, but ironing out any glaring weaknesses beforehand would be sweet.
How is everyone's experience against lightning bolt decks? Initially it seemed as though most of the streamers I watched were particularly concerned with UW not being able to keep up in the Jace mirrors due to an inability to brainstorm the first turn JtMS came down for fear of bolt, but this hasn't been my experience so far. It hasn't been hard to just +2.
My experience so far is that Trials and Colonnade have lost a lot of value. Trials is great in some matches, but I'll echo bloodrabbit by saying a lot of the format is go wide, Jace, or bbe, non of which trials is good against. I think the only time I may keep Trials is if I were to splash for Bolt because i have had opponents play Jace and +2 on T4 when I tap out for Gideon on T3 and there doesn't even seem to be much point in hitting it down to 1 loyalty, just seems kinda futile. Maybe with more cliques, or STW is okay as well, but not in a 'stock' list. Colonnade seems to be about the same, it coming into play tapped has been hurting a lot, it can't reasonably expect to kill Jace, and with more wincons in the deck I'll probably only be playing 3 copies at most going forward and depending on where the meta settles, I could see moving down to 1 trials main and maybe 1 in the side.
How is everyone's experience against lightning bolt decks? Initially it seemed as though most of the streamers I watched were particularly concerned with UW not being able to keep up in the Jace mirrors due to an inability to brainstorm the first turn JtMS came down for fear of bolt, but this hasn't been my experience so far. It hasn't been hard to just +2.
I haven't had a chance to play much, i'm waiting for someone to publish a list that looks amazing. Bennyhillz list is probably solid but it seems boring. I tested my ancestral version a little bit and lowered the curve a bit. But then I got punished by the path + mana leak non-combo. I also wanted to be cute and play mana tithe, but that card is not playable when you're playing path.
I have been watching a lot of streams (and vods) play with Jace and BBE, and it was funny to just watch them get rolled, or roll over the opponent with Jace. Jace looks pretty sweet in the taking turns deck.
I think with the meta currently being so crazy (online) you just want to be proactive and tap out. And I think Nassif and another steamer wanted to cut a colonnade to not fall behind in tempo. You don't know what the good answer cards are. That's why you can justify playing GotT. You really want to cast a spell every turn in the game, and there are very few good 3 cmc cards you can play in UW (unless you count snapcaster). I don't know if detention sphere is that good anymore, I loved it vs grixis shadow and storm since it was an out to their nut draws. But GDS and storm seem to be on the decline? Looking at other blue control decks that can play Jace, UR, and Jeskai, there are so few good three drops to play (electrolyze, blood moon, geist). And all these decks just load up on the 4 drop slot (jace, cryptic, sweepers, other walkers). I just found it interesting that there aren't that many good 3 cmc cards to play in blue based control decks. Maybe UB, esper or sultai will be a thing and then there's liliana. Esper has esper charm and lingering souls. I love esper charm but i'm not sold on it. Lingering souls is bad vs half the decks in the format.
It plays 2 Jace right now, and I could see going to 3, but 4 is most definitely unwarranted. There are a few times where you slam Jace on 4, and many times where you actively wish he was a different card. Not cutting the Seas -- as I suspected, they're still great vs. big mana, and there's nothing better for punishing a stumbling opponent than Gideon, more Seas, Search, Jace, and generally just getting to Cryptic mana. It's been great to have some Wall of Omens too, as it does exactly as intended. I also wouldn't suggest cutting Search for Azcanta because blue mirrors generally revolve around who casts SfA first, and UW mirrors in particular revolve around keeping unflipped Azcantas in play or resolving a Gideon to waste opposing Snap/Clique/Queller-beats. The Tron matchup is actually better than ever, since we now have another must-blow-up permanent for OStone if you ever get a clean chance to stick Jace, and Walls have covered the less-removal axis.
The mainboard Settles are a playtesting thing, but I suspect it will stick with me since it's decent against Bloodbraid decks (since it'll hit their other attackers along with a freshly-cast BBE, leaving only the cascaded spell in play conveniently for a Gideon plus or Wall block. Secure is still great, Sphinx's Rev is a necessity for the Jund matchup. You know, the usual. To be honest, I steal most of my games these days with Search for Azcanta -- card is good. I also swapped the 2 Leaks with a 2nd Knot and a Remand, since Leak loses mirrors when opponents go for real plays late in the game. Didn't want a 3rd Knot since it'd leave me cold to grave hate.
I finally ended my lasting relationship with Queller in the board since it doesn't team up with Snappy to kill a Jace that +2'd. Time will tell if I prefer the Quellers, but I will say it's not necessarily permanent. I may play a mix to be honest.
It plays 2 Jace right now, and I could see going to 3, but 4 is most definitely unwarranted. There are a few times where you slam Jace on 4, and many times where you actively wish he was a different card. Not cutting the Seas -- as I suspected, they're still great vs. big mana, and there's nothing better for punishing a stumbling opponent than Gideon, more Seas, Search, Jace, and generally just getting to Cryptic mana. It's been great to have some Wall of Omens too, as it does exactly as intended. I also wouldn't suggest cutting Search for Azcanta because blue mirrors generally revolve around who casts SfA first, and UW mirrors in particular revolve around keeping unflipped Azcantas in play or resolving a Gideon to waste opposing Snap/Clique/Queller-beats. The Tron matchup is actually better than ever, since we now have another must-blow-up permanent for OStone if you ever get a clean chance to stick Jace, and Walls have covered the less-removal axis.
The mainboard Settles are a playtesting thing, but I suspect it will stick with me since it's decent against Bloodbraid decks (since it'll hit their other attackers along with a freshly-cast BBE, leaving only the cascaded spell in play conveniently for a Gideon plus or Wall block. Secure is still great, Sphinx's Rev is a necessity for the Jund matchup. You know, the usual. To be honest, I steal most of my games these days with Search for Azcanta -- card is good. I also swapped the 2 Leaks with a 2nd Knot and a Remand, since Leak loses mirrors when opponents go for real plays late in the game. Didn't want a 3rd Knot since it'd leave me cold to grave hate.
I finally ended my lasting relationship with Queller in the board since it doesn't team up with Snappy to kill a Jace that +2'd. Time will tell if I prefer the Quellers, but I will say it's not necessarily permanent. I may play a mix to be honest.
I'm probably trying something really similar to your list now. Firstly, I don't know if I'd cut Gideons3, because they are good on some of our worst match-ups, and they are a cheap Win Condition that curves nicely with JTMS, which is really good. On the blue Mirrors, although he doesn't excels at trying to beat opposing Jaces, he helps protecting our own Jaces from opposing threats, and at least forces our opponents to worry about him.
Other relevant thing is: we don't know yet if "the best Jace deck" (if there'll be any) will play white. We imagine UW and Jeskai are gonna be major players now, but there's a real chance that Grixis or Blue Moon just prove themselves the best Jace decks, and in that case, Gideon3 would be a good threat, since they can't remove him as easily (if we decide to stick to UW Control regardless, of course).
Vendilion could be better than Gideon3, but it dies much easier, specially now that Bolt'll likely see a lot of play again, although it does have flash and evasion. Kolaghan's Command and maybe Lingering Souls will probably see more play now as well, and that's bad for Clique too. Not sure. Since we usually play little spot removal count and rely more on our sweepers, and he dies much harder I think Gideon3 could be better. I have been seeing a lot of players just cut some sweepers in order to play more cheap spot removal, but I'm not sold on it. Most of these removals are "bad", like Condemn or Oust. Not sure if it's worth it to run a bunch of mediocre cards and try to rely more on Jace. Could be wrong, but I believe Jace serves the deck better than the deck should serve Jace. If I were to try more cheap spot removal, I'd probably just play Jeskai and play some Burns that would also help beating opposing Jaces.
Settle the Wreckage could be a good bet now IMO, because Jund'll likely try to outgrind us with BBE + Kommand chains, what makes the exile clause much better. BBE's haste is also good for STW. However, the fact that it doesn't really clean the entire board is really relevant, since it becomes much worse to cast a turn before you intend to slam Jace, and it'll likely just respond to "half BBE". Wall of Omens could compensate this and Jace could defend himself by bouncing the remaining threat, but in this case he likely dies to Bolt or Kommand without gaining us any value.
I like the Secure the Wastes. I'd probably try to find room for Spell Snare, since U-Controls are probably gonna rise now, and this card is so good on these matches. It also answers Bob, which is really important for us.
I couldnt wait i bought my 400$ jace set (sadface). I love uw control but honestly miracles seems bonkers with 4 opts, 4 serum visions, 2x searches and jaces.. i havent tested but i think im making it lol
I’m not sold on miracles with the 4 jtms 4 opt 3 serum visions 2 azcanta setup that I tried with 4 terminus; out of three matches, terminus never got miracled in a timely fashion. I could’ve been trying more miracles, but a few entreats wouldn’t have really helped against the go wide strategies that terminus needs be getting flipped with.
With lingering souls being bad right now; I’d like that to be explained a bit more.
I don’t disagree per se, so there’s no need to be defensive—it just seems like a claim that needs more of an explanation...like, is it bad online only? What matches is it bad in? etc etc
A black splash for push, linger, maybe, Lilly of the Veil, and 1cc discard, and sb options, like anguished undoing seems kind of enticing to me.
I was impressed with how well McLaren's deck worked. He was streaming so he made a few mistakes.
For UW lists I like Bennyhillz' the most. I can't give up revelation as it's such a great stabilizer. And the miser terminus seems it adds percentage points against bogles, dredge and hollow one decks. I guess runed halo was similar in that regard too.
A black splash for push, linger, maybe, Lilly of the Veil, and 1cc discard, and sb options, like anguished undoing seems kind of enticing to me.
You can't really 'splash' for 1cmc discard and 1BB spells, they require you to run roughly 14+ and 16+ sources respectively. It requires a fundamentally different manabase.
Ehr, @jayjayhooks didn't attack you. He was just stating that "a black splash for Push and Lingering" means having to rethink the whole manabase, and you'll end up playing actual Esper. If you want to go that route, I suggest to open a new thread, because it has nothing to do with UW anymore - most likely, you will cut colorless lands and some basics, and that's the main benefit from playing two colors. We'll be glad to contribute. But you're overreacting, man, so chill out and stop being an ass.
About Miracles, I'm still unsure about it. I'm testing several decklists, and they are sometimes very powerful, other times just "fine", but worse than classic UW. I still have to figure out what is the best shell for Jace in UW. And I'm also re-considering Gideon of the Trials, because very aggressive decks seems to be kept in check by your usual Combo - UR Storm and a resurgence in G-Valakut - so that only Burn is a viable option, and Trials is good against Burn. While, with Settle in the deck, we can contain decently BBE. To be honest, what it really appeals to me in Miracles is playing lots of cantrips + some Entreats more than Terminus. Entreat is such a crazy card, even if you naturally cast it from the top in the midgame. If the metagame will focus more on Midrange strategies, Entreat just crush them.
I’m also unsure about jamming Jace TMS in our “usual” UW shell. I liked that before the unbans, but when we cut things like Sphere & Snare from the maindeck to make space for Walls and Jace, well, I think we’re conceding too much against a part of the field. Same goes for the 2cc counterspells: if Jace will be prevalent, then we have to pack more. Dunno. I feel like this isn’t the right way.
Well... I believe we won't know until we have a better clue about how the new metagame is going to look like. For now, what we expect is there'll be powerful Midranges and Controls based on BBE and Jace, there'll be decks trying to go under these decks (Burn, Dredge, Zoo, maybe Affinity), there'll be decks trying to go bigger (Valakut, Tron, Eldrazis) and linear combos (Storm, Ad Nauseam, Grishoalbrand). That's the first assumption. It could be right or wrong.
If Jund becomes too powerful, for example, the combo decks are probably vanishing from the format (as they did the last year with the rise of Death's Shadow decks), because B based Midranges usually prey on combos with their hand disruptions and good clocks. If Controls become too powerful, they might crush the Midranges and than the fast combos might become relevant. If the fast Aggros become prevalent, than Tron and Valakut might vanish and the fight could be more polarized in Midranges/Controls vs Aggros.
So... we can't know for sure. And since we don't know how the metagame is going to look like, we don't even know which Jace deck is gonna be the best, if there'll be a "best Jace deck" in the format. In a vacuum, I believe that UW Control's main force comes from the land disruption and more stable manabase, while Jeskai is probably the best vs Aggro decks, Grixis should be the best vs combos and maybe other Midranges, and Blue Moon is somewhere between UW's ability to fight Big Mana and Grixis's power vs Midranges. Some other decks could emerge too, like Esper, UB, Sultai, Bant, Temur, Big Naya, etc. If the metagame becomes perfectly balanced, there'll be room for all these decks, each one being better against something. In theory, all of these should be able to put a reasonable fight against everything, but some of them would excel against a different type of deck.
For that reasons, I believe UW Control's place in the format depends on the Big Mana Decks's place and if Blood Moon will still be a thing on the format. If Moon is still a thing, than UW has an edge over the other possible Control decks, thanks to it's manabase. If Big Mana decks are still present, than UW could be good by having game against the other decks on the field and praying on the Big Manas. But if neither of these are still present, than UW'll probably be just worse than Jeskai or Grixis. Other possibility is UW becomes present by just attacking the best Control and/or Midrange. Let's say the best Jace deck is Jeskai. UW could be a solid choice if it beats Jeskai while having game against the rest of the meta. And still, our best weapon to beat Jeskai (or Grixis, or any other 3 colored Control deck) is still the land disruption package. So... I wouldn't shave our land disruption, at least for now. I believe that in almost any scenario where UW proves to be a solid choice on this new metagame, the land disruption will be one of the main reasons.
You’re pointing out the obvious, missing a “maybe” and focusing on a word whose definition tends to be idiosyncratic in magic.
Was there something more significant that you mean to add to the discussion that I missed or you left out?
Yes, you missed, or I under emphasized, the 'fundamentally different manabase' part. It's not pedantic to say that splashing has a real meaning, it generally means something like 'without burdening your manabase'. At the point where you can reliably cast the spells you suggested, your Mana base can no longer support supreme verdict, or Gideon of the Trials, and maybe even field of ruin, all of which are staples of this deck. If you want to play Liliana, dicard and damnation instead of Gideon of the trials and and supreme verdict that is fine, and something worth discussing. But, my assumption, based on your use of the word splashing, was that you didn't realize these are the costs associated with such a change. My apologies if not only did I not communicate that clearly, but also if you took it as dismissive.
Without LotV, there are no XBB costed cards. That’s why the missing “maybe” is significant.
On language:
Even if the Oxford English Dictionary had an mtg section, it wouldn’t matter because dictionaries aren’t lexical rulebooks; they document popular uses of words(ex: widespread misuse of “literal” led to a new definition being added several years ago). It’s not like it’s publically-visible, but you’re talking down to someone about the game’s basics, who has been playing for over two decades. I know the terminology because I’ve been on the groundfloor of its development for quite some time. “Fish” used to mean a disruptive blue-based weenie deck exclusively; since Lorwyn, it’s most common use refers to “merfolk”(I could go on with examples).
If you want “splash” to mean more than a small amount of another colour, that’s your business, but save the pedantry for private messages. Also,
if I made a UWb list, this isn’t the thread where I’d share it.
It could be a bust like Ancestral Visions was, but after hearing watching Chipper and Nassif stream yesterday, he seems like the truth.
Can't relate. I got hosed multiple times in the early game by having a Stream and few to no basics -- especially sequencing etb-tapped lands first (like Colonnade and even Glacial Fortress in some situations) and trying to set up a Stream is not super easy to do. I tried it, and now I'm back on the 2nd Hallowed Fountain again.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Sounds intriguing, mind posting a list of what you're working on to look over?
The more I think about it, the more I want 2 cmc counterspells, as the card advantage aspect of cryptic is less appealing now compared to its clunkiness and our now greater number of 4 drops.
I think 5 fetchlands and 4 serum visions is enough for 3 logic knots, and obviously, logic knot is more appealing here than a mana leak.
I'm not sure how much you've liked 3 mana gideon in this deck, but I can't help but feel he's still good enough to keep some number of, main or side. Do you miss (or expect to miss) them?
I’ve been tinkering with some builds in anticipation of how the meta will unfold over the next several weeks. I see that BennyHillz’s recent 5-0 is a fairly stock list with 2x Wall and 3x JtMS, the latter replacing Jura, Jace AoT, and a Search. He also ran a Terminus in place of the third Verdict, with six total wrath effects in the 75 (including Engineered Explosives).
That’s certainly one direction in which to take the deck—maybe even the best direction. Wall into Gideon OTT into Verdict is still an extremely strong progression against plenty of decks. However, some in this thread have voiced concern that BBE decks and other linear aggro decks with a prevalence of haste creatures might make Verdict look a little clunky. If that turns out to be the case, here’s the list I’ve put together that focuses on generating a beefier board state, allowing us to interact favorably with the linear aggro decks which aim to get in under Verdict, while presenting the potential for a strong clock against combo:
1x Logic Knot
2x Mana Leak
1x Negate
4x Path to Exile
1x Secure the Wastes
1x Settle the Wreckage
1x Spell Snare
4x Serum Visions
1x Supreme Verdict
4x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
5x Island
3x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
1x Prairie Stream
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Gideon Jura
2x Gideon of the Trials
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Search for Azcanta
4x Spreading Seas
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Wall of Omens
I haven’t drawn up a sideboard yet because its contents will be contingent on the main, which I’m not sure is a total mess or not.
It’s a bit strange: I started off with the idea of building around JtMS (extra fetches, 2x Wall, Secure the Wastes over Rev due to the utility of instant speed blockers, etc). But that line of thinking led me to Gideon, AoZ, which in turn led me to the full Gid Squad and only one copy of Modern’s new overlord. Strictly incorrect? That’s possible, but the Gideons have always been incredible for me, and this is the sort of shell in which AoZ could shine.
Any feedback? I’ll be testing over the long weekend, but ironing out any glaring weaknesses beforehand would be sweet.
My experience so far is that Trials and Colonnade have lost a lot of value. Trials is great in some matches, but I'll echo bloodrabbit by saying a lot of the format is go wide, Jace, or bbe, non of which trials is good against. I think the only time I may keep Trials is if I were to splash for Bolt because i have had opponents play Jace and +2 on T4 when I tap out for Gideon on T3 and there doesn't even seem to be much point in hitting it down to 1 loyalty, just seems kinda futile. Maybe with more cliques, or STW is okay as well, but not in a 'stock' list. Colonnade seems to be about the same, it coming into play tapped has been hurting a lot, it can't reasonably expect to kill Jace, and with more wincons in the deck I'll probably only be playing 3 copies at most going forward and depending on where the meta settles, I could see moving down to 1 trials main and maybe 1 in the side.
I haven't had a chance to play much, i'm waiting for someone to publish a list that looks amazing. Bennyhillz list is probably solid but it seems boring. I tested my ancestral version a little bit and lowered the curve a bit. But then I got punished by the path + mana leak non-combo. I also wanted to be cute and play mana tithe, but that card is not playable when you're playing path.
I have been watching a lot of streams (and vods) play with Jace and BBE, and it was funny to just watch them get rolled, or roll over the opponent with Jace. Jace looks pretty sweet in the taking turns deck.
I think with the meta currently being so crazy (online) you just want to be proactive and tap out. And I think Nassif and another steamer wanted to cut a colonnade to not fall behind in tempo. You don't know what the good answer cards are. That's why you can justify playing GotT. You really want to cast a spell every turn in the game, and there are very few good 3 cmc cards you can play in UW (unless you count snapcaster). I don't know if detention sphere is that good anymore, I loved it vs grixis shadow and storm since it was an out to their nut draws. But GDS and storm seem to be on the decline? Looking at other blue control decks that can play Jace, UR, and Jeskai, there are so few good three drops to play (electrolyze, blood moon, geist). And all these decks just load up on the 4 drop slot (jace, cryptic, sweepers, other walkers). I just found it interesting that there aren't that many good 3 cmc cards to play in blue based control decks. Maybe UB, esper or sultai will be a thing and then there's liliana. Esper has esper charm and lingering souls. I love esper charm but i'm not sold on it. Lingering souls is bad vs half the decks in the format.
That's enough rambling for now.
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
1x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
5x Island
1x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
Card Advantage (15)
4x Serum Visions
2x Search for Azcanta
4x Spreading Seas
2x Wall of Omens
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Logic Knot
1x Remand
1x Negate
3x Cryptic Command
Removal (9)
4x Path to Exile
2x Detention Sphere
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Settle the Wreckage
Planeswalkers (4)
2x Gideon of the Trials
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Wincons (1)
1x Secure the Wastes
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Celestial Purge
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Runed Halo
2x Supreme Verdict
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Vendilion Clique
[sarcasm]Revolutionary, I know. [/sarcasm]
It plays 2 Jace right now, and I could see going to 3, but 4 is most definitely unwarranted. There are a few times where you slam Jace on 4, and many times where you actively wish he was a different card. Not cutting the Seas -- as I suspected, they're still great vs. big mana, and there's nothing better for punishing a stumbling opponent than Gideon, more Seas, Search, Jace, and generally just getting to Cryptic mana. It's been great to have some Wall of Omens too, as it does exactly as intended. I also wouldn't suggest cutting Search for Azcanta because blue mirrors generally revolve around who casts SfA first, and UW mirrors in particular revolve around keeping unflipped Azcantas in play or resolving a Gideon to waste opposing Snap/Clique/Queller-beats. The Tron matchup is actually better than ever, since we now have another must-blow-up permanent for OStone if you ever get a clean chance to stick Jace, and Walls have covered the less-removal axis.
The mainboard Settles are a playtesting thing, but I suspect it will stick with me since it's decent against Bloodbraid decks (since it'll hit their other attackers along with a freshly-cast BBE, leaving only the cascaded spell in play conveniently for a Gideon plus or Wall block. Secure is still great, Sphinx's Rev is a necessity for the Jund matchup. You know, the usual. To be honest, I steal most of my games these days with Search for Azcanta -- card is good. I also swapped the 2 Leaks with a 2nd Knot and a Remand, since Leak loses mirrors when opponents go for real plays late in the game. Didn't want a 3rd Knot since it'd leave me cold to grave hate.
I finally ended my lasting relationship with Queller in the board since it doesn't team up with Snappy to kill a Jace that +2'd. Time will tell if I prefer the Quellers, but I will say it's not necessarily permanent. I may play a mix to be honest.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I'm probably trying something really similar to your list now. Firstly, I don't know if I'd cut Gideons3, because they are good on some of our worst match-ups, and they are a cheap Win Condition that curves nicely with JTMS, which is really good. On the blue Mirrors, although he doesn't excels at trying to beat opposing Jaces, he helps protecting our own Jaces from opposing threats, and at least forces our opponents to worry about him.
Other relevant thing is: we don't know yet if "the best Jace deck" (if there'll be any) will play white. We imagine UW and Jeskai are gonna be major players now, but there's a real chance that Grixis or Blue Moon just prove themselves the best Jace decks, and in that case, Gideon3 would be a good threat, since they can't remove him as easily (if we decide to stick to UW Control regardless, of course).
Vendilion could be better than Gideon3, but it dies much easier, specially now that Bolt'll likely see a lot of play again, although it does have flash and evasion. Kolaghan's Command and maybe Lingering Souls will probably see more play now as well, and that's bad for Clique too. Not sure. Since we usually play little spot removal count and rely more on our sweepers, and he dies much harder I think Gideon3 could be better. I have been seeing a lot of players just cut some sweepers in order to play more cheap spot removal, but I'm not sold on it. Most of these removals are "bad", like Condemn or Oust. Not sure if it's worth it to run a bunch of mediocre cards and try to rely more on Jace. Could be wrong, but I believe Jace serves the deck better than the deck should serve Jace. If I were to try more cheap spot removal, I'd probably just play Jeskai and play some Burns that would also help beating opposing Jaces.
Settle the Wreckage could be a good bet now IMO, because Jund'll likely try to outgrind us with BBE + Kommand chains, what makes the exile clause much better. BBE's haste is also good for STW. However, the fact that it doesn't really clean the entire board is really relevant, since it becomes much worse to cast a turn before you intend to slam Jace, and it'll likely just respond to "half BBE". Wall of Omens could compensate this and Jace could defend himself by bouncing the remaining threat, but in this case he likely dies to Bolt or Kommand without gaining us any value.
I like the Secure the Wastes. I'd probably try to find room for Spell Snare, since U-Controls are probably gonna rise now, and this card is so good on these matches. It also answers Bob, which is really important for us.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
With lingering souls being bad right now; I’d like that to be explained a bit more.
I don’t disagree per se, so there’s no need to be defensive—it just seems like a claim that needs more of an explanation...like, is it bad online only? What matches is it bad in? etc etc
A black splash for push, linger, maybe, Lilly of the Veil, and 1cc discard, and sb options, like anguished undoing seems kind of enticing to me.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWWoHs8VAAA0aHX.jpg:large
Here's Mcwinsauce's list which he has 5-0'd twice.
https://i.imgur.com/FWDGt6R.png
I was impressed with how well McLaren's deck worked. He was streaming so he made a few mistakes.
For UW lists I like Bennyhillz' the most. I can't give up revelation as it's such a great stabilizer. And the miser terminus seems it adds percentage points against bogles, dredge and hollow one decks. I guess runed halo was similar in that regard too.
You can't really 'splash' for 1cmc discard and 1BB spells, they require you to run roughly 14+ and 16+ sources respectively. It requires a fundamentally different manabase.
Was there something more significant that you mean to add to the discussion that I missed or you left out?
Well... I believe we won't know until we have a better clue about how the new metagame is going to look like. For now, what we expect is there'll be powerful Midranges and Controls based on BBE and Jace, there'll be decks trying to go under these decks (Burn, Dredge, Zoo, maybe Affinity), there'll be decks trying to go bigger (Valakut, Tron, Eldrazis) and linear combos (Storm, Ad Nauseam, Grishoalbrand). That's the first assumption. It could be right or wrong.
If Jund becomes too powerful, for example, the combo decks are probably vanishing from the format (as they did the last year with the rise of Death's Shadow decks), because B based Midranges usually prey on combos with their hand disruptions and good clocks. If Controls become too powerful, they might crush the Midranges and than the fast combos might become relevant. If the fast Aggros become prevalent, than Tron and Valakut might vanish and the fight could be more polarized in Midranges/Controls vs Aggros.
So... we can't know for sure. And since we don't know how the metagame is going to look like, we don't even know which Jace deck is gonna be the best, if there'll be a "best Jace deck" in the format. In a vacuum, I believe that UW Control's main force comes from the land disruption and more stable manabase, while Jeskai is probably the best vs Aggro decks, Grixis should be the best vs combos and maybe other Midranges, and Blue Moon is somewhere between UW's ability to fight Big Mana and Grixis's power vs Midranges. Some other decks could emerge too, like Esper, UB, Sultai, Bant, Temur, Big Naya, etc. If the metagame becomes perfectly balanced, there'll be room for all these decks, each one being better against something. In theory, all of these should be able to put a reasonable fight against everything, but some of them would excel against a different type of deck.
For that reasons, I believe UW Control's place in the format depends on the Big Mana Decks's place and if Blood Moon will still be a thing on the format. If Moon is still a thing, than UW has an edge over the other possible Control decks, thanks to it's manabase. If Big Mana decks are still present, than UW could be good by having game against the other decks on the field and praying on the Big Manas. But if neither of these are still present, than UW'll probably be just worse than Jeskai or Grixis. Other possibility is UW becomes present by just attacking the best Control and/or Midrange. Let's say the best Jace deck is Jeskai. UW could be a solid choice if it beats Jeskai while having game against the rest of the meta. And still, our best weapon to beat Jeskai (or Grixis, or any other 3 colored Control deck) is still the land disruption package. So... I wouldn't shave our land disruption, at least for now. I believe that in almost any scenario where UW proves to be a solid choice on this new metagame, the land disruption will be one of the main reasons.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
On language:
Even if the Oxford English Dictionary had an mtg section, it wouldn’t matter because dictionaries aren’t lexical rulebooks; they document popular uses of words(ex: widespread misuse of “literal” led to a new definition being added several years ago). It’s not like it’s publically-visible, but you’re talking down to someone about the game’s basics, who has been playing for over two decades. I know the terminology because I’ve been on the groundfloor of its development for quite some time. “Fish” used to mean a disruptive blue-based weenie deck exclusively; since Lorwyn, it’s most common use refers to “merfolk”(I could go on with examples).
If you want “splash” to mean more than a small amount of another colour, that’s your business, but save the pedantry for private messages. Also,
if I made a UWb list, this isn’t the thread where I’d share it.