I find abzan to be an even-to-good match. I tend to often run 2nd Jace over 3rd cryptic though, and that helps immensely with souls. I think people over estimate Lilly of the veil against us, I generally find Lilly to be a blessing in disguise, I usually feel like the opponent tries to get it down too early and it ends up eating too deep into thier resources. Once they are empty handed, boot up a colonnade or flash in a snap to keep it from ultimating and we are a better at playing the top deck game (they have a bunch of Lillys, inquistions, thought seize and removal that won't do anything as long as they want to keep plusing Lilly).
When I lose it's usually due to Bob. We can't really afford to path it on turn 2 on the draw, and we can't really afford to not path it either. Stuck between a Bob and a hard place. Tireless tracker is also a beating.
I think for control in general, lot of people dramatically overestimate how good control is against discard based midrange (be it abzan, jund, shadow, or whatever.)
It depends on a lot who's playing the deck, of course. A bad to medium midrange player is likely going to get crushed by a control player of comparable skill (which is likely why a lot of people have the views they do about the matchup). This becomes much closer to even as the midrange player's skill improves (even if the control player's skill improves as well).
I think reid duke is probably just a massive favorite against any opponent, but abzan with lingering souls, discard, liliana, and bob, is definitely well positioned to fight control.
On a slightly different note, I have it on good authority (several noteworthy gp/pt players) that jund shadow/traverse shadow is generally favored vs UW/X control. Its the same thing. The better the players get, the more the matchups change.
I am a fan of 2 hallowed fountains. It helps you play ruined halo, Gideon OTT, verdict, and cryptic on curve. I would consider it "free".
I also think that running out of fetchable lands is not a real argument. That only happens on turns 12+, where drawing most lands is a brick anyways. It's not like you're switching the fetch land for some value land that draws cards or scrys. Not being able to verdict or cryptic on turn 4 is the real concern for me.
Actually good grixis shadow players (or worse, jund shadow) actually do beat UW control half the time.
It may not match your experience, but they have all of the tools they need to beat us: discard, 1 mana negates, fast clocks, and card advantage.
The threats UW plays aren't unbeatable for gbx though. Abrupt decay answers search and little gideon nicely, and unless we have enough removal spells to back up other planeswalkers and the like, they're not going to stick around too long. We might get some value out of them, but that doesn't immediately translate to a win.
Think about how often you play against abzan. Think about every time they take the wrong card with a thoughtseize, every time they flashback lingering souls at the wrong time, or order their threats oddly. What if instead of making all of those mistakes, they played perfectly. It shouldn't be terribly difficult to figure out why the matchup changes as the players get better.
If we make it to the very late game having cleanly answered our opponent's whole hand, and remain at a comfortable life total, sure its very much in our favor. But competent players can gain a huge advantage in the early turns, and its not a guarantee we'll make it to the late game at all.
In all my time playing this deck, the number of times I've dropped a match to Grixis Shadow has to be less than 10, probaly less than 5. I don't consider myself an amazing player, and I'm not willing to suggest all of my opponents were bad either. I also board out Seas in the matchup and settle in for a grind (I don't like Seas against opponents that play blue and have no manlands), so it's not like I pick up free wins from color screwing them.
Edit: It could just be because my game one is so heavily favorable -- I play mainboard Alliances, the 4th Verdict (maybe a Settle now, not sure), and a Secure to go along with the limited countermagic they have G1.
Are Abzan players returning to Bob? It's been a loooooong time since the last time I saw an Abzan deck playing Bob... well... if they do play Bob, it's probably bad for us. But when I played this deck, I felt slightly favored. They didn't play any Bobs though. I think Grim Flayers took Bob's place on those decks by the last times I played them. I have been seeing them a lot on Jund though.
Against GDS I always feel favored. I usually have so many answers, card advantage and powerful top decks that they have a real hard time beating me. Unless they have a God Hand or 3+ discard spells, I'm probably winning the majority of the games against them. I'm probably 65/35 against them, or something close to that.
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Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Seems like some players don’t realize how discard against us is live for the whole game. We don’t deploy some threaths early and then try to profit. We usually interact at instant speed, and that means we’re much more susceptible to the opponent’s discard.
I think the reason your perception is skewed here is because you play significantly more countermagic than the average UW player. The average UW deck runs around 3-4 spells that discard is live against going late; 2-3 leak, 0-1 negate and 0-1 spell snare. The only other spell susceptible going late is Path, but if you have no targets for path and they are topping discard we are a likely in a dominating position or at parity at worst (and the same is true of leak/negate/snare really). At parity we are huge favorites in the topdeck race.
You mention that we usually interact at instant speed, and that's just not true; we are very much a tap-out deck.
I'm changing my Jeskai Control IRL into UW Control. I think it's better positioned on my field, because there are a lot of Big Mana decks, some U-Controls, some DS and not much Aggros (there are some Burns, though). There a bunch of Blood Moons as well. So... I'm planning to play on something similar to this:
I made little tweaks to my MTGO deck for playing IRL. On MTGO I play 2 Wall of Omens and I cut them for 1 Snare and 1 Snapcaster to try to improve my match-up against the U-Controls that are really present on my field. The 3rd Snapcaster might improve my match against the Big Mana decks as well, and might be useful against the few Aggros, I supose.
Have been thinking of adding a 2nd Knot. Maybe on the Snapcaster or the Mana Leak spot. Not sure if I'll be able to use the 3rd Snappy well, since on UW I don't have much cheap and good spells. Anyways... those are my reasons to play this list.
I also have been thinking of adding an EE to my sideboard, but I'm not sure if it should come in, and on what spot. Any thoughts or advices?
I dislike Halo main deck. It's really awkard in a good amount of matches and it doesn't protect our walkers. I'd much rather play Walls instead, or even more removal like Blessed Alliance or Condemn.
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Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
IMHO, whenever you decide to cut Walls entirely from the maindeck, you should also run the fourth wrath (the last Verdict or a Settle), or you’ll fold too often to aggressive strategies. Also, I would make space AT LEAST for one Condemn in the aideboard, given that you can’t block anymore Guides/Swiftspear from Burn and such. I like having the third Snappy, also because you can use it to ambush a creature on turn two if your hand is too slow.
I support this advice. You really ought to play 4 Wraths if you're not on Walls. I suggest an Alliance over Condemn, tho, since it's typically higher impact.
That's an interesting advice. I think I might cut the Reinforcements for a Condemn. It's probably less impactful in the Burn match-up, but it's probably better on more occasions. What about Sunlance? Seems also good against Aggro fast decks, and is probably better than Condemn or Alliance against Humans, Bobs, Pyromancers, Hierarchs, etc.
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Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
A lot of 5-0 lists, or lists people bring to the pro tour, are meta gamed heavily. If you're not seeing a lot of decks where wrath is good, or expect them to decline, then you don't have to play as many. But if you're looking for broad guidelines, it makes a lot of sense.
A lot of 5-0 lists, or lists people bring to the pro tour, are meta gamed heavily. If you're not seeing a lot of decks where wrath is good, or expect them to decline, then you don't have to play as many. But if you're looking for broad guidelines, it makes a lot of sense.
That's the main reason I'm inclined to cut the Walls and keep 3 sweepers main deck (and a 4th on the sideboard). There aren't that many Aggro decks on my field. I'm much more concerned about the U-Controls. There are a bunch of Jeskais, Blue Moons, UW Controls and some GDS, along with a lot of Big Mana Decks, that should be good match-ups. I might miss the Walls vs Burn and the few Aggros, but I also think that Snare and Snappy kind of cover that matches decently.
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Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
A lot of 5-0 lists, or lists people bring to the pro tour, are meta gamed heavily. If you're not seeing a lot of decks where wrath is good, or expect them to decline, then you don't have to play as many. But if you're looking for broad guidelines, it makes a lot of sense.
That's the main reason I'm inclined to cut the Walls and keep 3 sweepers main deck (and a 4th on the sideboard). There aren't that many Aggro decks on my field. I'm much more concerned about the U-Controls. There are a bunch of Jeskais, Blue Moons, UW Controls and some GDS, along with a lot of Big Mana Decks, that should be good match-ups. I might miss the Walls vs Burn and the few Aggros, but I also think that Snare and Snappy kind of cover that matches decently.
Wall is actually very good against URx like Jeskai and UR Moon. That said, I understand your thinking, especially considering you would be putting a 4th Wrath in the board. Maybe you should consider a flash threat like Clique or Secure, as they'd help you walk the line between tap-out and draw-go against the counterspell decks.
Even a couple of Think Twice sound pretty good in that meta, honestly.
Sure. Wall is very good against UR decks that try to beat us by Burn + Snapcaster on our end step. However I think Spell Snare and my own Snapcaster are probably even better. Not sure on the Snap vs Wall debate though. Maybe Wall is better than Snap on this match.
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Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
I thought about a main deck Clique, but I feel it much less powerful without the Burn spells, Quellers and the full set of Snapcasters. I like it in the sideboard. Maybe should move it to the main deck. Not sure. But I feel like it belongs better on the sideboard.
Secure the Wastes could be really good. Don't know what I could cut for it though.
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Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
I thought about a main deck Clique, but I feel it much less powerful without the Burn spells, Quellers and the full set of Snapcasters. I like it in the sideboard. Maybe should move it to the main deck. Not sure. But I feel like it belongs better on the sideboard.
Secure the Wastes could be really good. Don't know what I could cut for it though.
I would tend to agree with you on Clique, except not for the same reasons. The point for playing it main isn't the same in UW as it is in Jeskai -- you literally just want a good clock, and you don't NEED burn spells to back it up -- we have tools enough to go long. It's sortof like a long-term tempo plan. The reason I don't love it maindeck is because of how fragile it is. I'd play Secure main over Clique in a heartbeat (actually, I already do!).
As for what you might cut for a Secure, my top-of-the-list candidates would be the 3rd Snappy and the Gideon, Ally.
Actually, a card I've been thinking of lately is Mutavault. It would be so sweet to just play a pair to beat down with (it would also really justify the 25th land too).
Secure has always played really well in my experience. I really like it against BGx as the X spell of choice because often just casting it for x=2-3 buys you like 3-4 draw steps before you need to deal with a goyf or something similar and still has the game ending ability as Rev when you flash it back later with Snapcaster for x=5+ on an empty/even board. I would certainly play secure before Clique in the main, for the same reasons as annhilator.
It is tempting to play a 3rd snap if one was playing some number of condemn and spell snare. Traditionally a dry snap has felt pretty bad, but with humans being the most popular aggro deck, and not really running any removal, sometimes snap can just be a Doomblade. Dry snap also feels fine against Storm and mono green tron.
Sure. That's the reason I opted for 3rd Snap + Snare on the 2 Walls slots. The Snare also makes my Snapcasters better, they both are reasonable against Aggros as Walls would be, and they're probably improving my match-up against the U-Controls and the Big Mana decks. Snare is probably better than Wall vs Burn. Trying to cover all bases.
My only concern is how often I'll need to play Ambush Viper. Even adding the Snare, I'm afraid I might not have enough good spells to consistently fuel 3 Snappys and end up being forced to just play Ambush Viper more oftenly than I'd wish.
I'm ok with having to do that sometimes against some fast Aggros or to impose clocks against some opponents that I'll want to beat fastly, but if that happens too oftenly, I'd rather play something else than 3rd Snappy.
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Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Even just on 2 Snap I have to Dry-Snap way more often I'd like, it's just the nature of UW. Sometimes Snap is the best card on the deck and sometimes it trades for an otherwise dead removal spell. I feel very similarly about spell snare.
On a different note. How does everyone feel about Spreading Seas right now? Looking at the goldfish modern meta, sees only seems good against Tron, and medium in a couple other matches and really bad in a lot. I feel like Spreading Seas was great against Shift decks when we had Tectonic Edge, but with Ruin, seas doesn't feel like it does anything in that match. I feel like in the current meta Wall of Omens might be a better call than Seas. What do you guys think of this list? It's basically Ben's list -2 Seas, -1 Leak, +2 Wall, +1 Knot and some sideboard differences.
When I lose it's usually due to Bob. We can't really afford to path it on turn 2 on the draw, and we can't really afford to not path it either. Stuck between a Bob and a hard place. Tireless tracker is also a beating.
It depends on a lot who's playing the deck, of course. A bad to medium midrange player is likely going to get crushed by a control player of comparable skill (which is likely why a lot of people have the views they do about the matchup). This becomes much closer to even as the midrange player's skill improves (even if the control player's skill improves as well).
I think reid duke is probably just a massive favorite against any opponent, but abzan with lingering souls, discard, liliana, and bob, is definitely well positioned to fight control.
On a slightly different note, I have it on good authority (several noteworthy gp/pt players) that jund shadow/traverse shadow is generally favored vs UW/X control. Its the same thing. The better the players get, the more the matchups change.
I also think that running out of fetchable lands is not a real argument. That only happens on turns 12+, where drawing most lands is a brick anyways. It's not like you're switching the fetch land for some value land that draws cards or scrys. Not being able to verdict or cryptic on turn 4 is the real concern for me.
It may not match your experience, but they have all of the tools they need to beat us: discard, 1 mana negates, fast clocks, and card advantage.
The threats UW plays aren't unbeatable for gbx though. Abrupt decay answers search and little gideon nicely, and unless we have enough removal spells to back up other planeswalkers and the like, they're not going to stick around too long. We might get some value out of them, but that doesn't immediately translate to a win.
Think about how often you play against abzan. Think about every time they take the wrong card with a thoughtseize, every time they flashback lingering souls at the wrong time, or order their threats oddly. What if instead of making all of those mistakes, they played perfectly. It shouldn't be terribly difficult to figure out why the matchup changes as the players get better.
If we make it to the very late game having cleanly answered our opponent's whole hand, and remain at a comfortable life total, sure its very much in our favor. But competent players can gain a huge advantage in the early turns, and its not a guarantee we'll make it to the late game at all.
Edit: It could just be because my game one is so heavily favorable -- I play mainboard Alliances, the 4th Verdict (maybe a Settle now, not sure), and a Secure to go along with the limited countermagic they have G1.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Against GDS I always feel favored. I usually have so many answers, card advantage and powerful top decks that they have a real hard time beating me. Unless they have a God Hand or 3+ discard spells, I'm probably winning the majority of the games against them. I'm probably 65/35 against them, or something close to that.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
You mention that we usually interact at instant speed, and that's just not true; we are very much a tap-out deck.
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Prairie Stream
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Field of Ruin
5 Island
3 Plains
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instants
1 Negate
1 Mana Leak
1 Logic Knot
1 Spell Snare
4 Path to Exile
3 Cryptic Command
1 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Serum Visions
3 Supreme Verdict
Enchantments
4 Spreading Seas
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Detention Sphere
Planeswalkers
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Gideon Jura
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Runed Halo
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Wrath of God
1 Celestial Purge
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Dispel
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Disdainful Stroke
I made little tweaks to my MTGO deck for playing IRL. On MTGO I play 2 Wall of Omens and I cut them for 1 Snare and 1 Snapcaster to try to improve my match-up against the U-Controls that are really present on my field. The 3rd Snapcaster might improve my match against the Big Mana decks as well, and might be useful against the few Aggros, I supose.
Have been thinking of adding a 2nd Knot. Maybe on the Snapcaster or the Mana Leak spot. Not sure if I'll be able to use the 3rd Snappy well, since on UW I don't have much cheap and good spells. Anyways... those are my reasons to play this list.
I also have been thinking of adding an EE to my sideboard, but I'm not sure if it should come in, and on what spot. Any thoughts or advices?
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
I support this advice. You really ought to play 4 Wraths if you're not on Walls. I suggest an Alliance over Condemn, tho, since it's typically higher impact.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
That's the main reason I'm inclined to cut the Walls and keep 3 sweepers main deck (and a 4th on the sideboard). There aren't that many Aggro decks on my field. I'm much more concerned about the U-Controls. There are a bunch of Jeskais, Blue Moons, UW Controls and some GDS, along with a lot of Big Mana Decks, that should be good match-ups. I might miss the Walls vs Burn and the few Aggros, but I also think that Snare and Snappy kind of cover that matches decently.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Wall is actually very good against URx like Jeskai and UR Moon. That said, I understand your thinking, especially considering you would be putting a 4th Wrath in the board. Maybe you should consider a flash threat like Clique or Secure, as they'd help you walk the line between tap-out and draw-go against the counterspell decks.
Even a couple of Think Twice sound pretty good in that meta, honestly.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Secure the Wastes could be really good. Don't know what I could cut for it though.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
I would tend to agree with you on Clique, except not for the same reasons. The point for playing it main isn't the same in UW as it is in Jeskai -- you literally just want a good clock, and you don't NEED burn spells to back it up -- we have tools enough to go long. It's sortof like a long-term tempo plan. The reason I don't love it maindeck is because of how fragile it is. I'd play Secure main over Clique in a heartbeat (actually, I already do!).
As for what you might cut for a Secure, my top-of-the-list candidates would be the 3rd Snappy and the Gideon, Ally.
Actually, a card I've been thinking of lately is Mutavault. It would be so sweet to just play a pair to beat down with (it would also really justify the 25th land too).
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
It is tempting to play a 3rd snap if one was playing some number of condemn and spell snare. Traditionally a dry snap has felt pretty bad, but with humans being the most popular aggro deck, and not really running any removal, sometimes snap can just be a Doomblade. Dry snap also feels fine against Storm and mono green tron.
My only concern is how often I'll need to play Ambush Viper. Even adding the Snare, I'm afraid I might not have enough good spells to consistently fuel 3 Snappys and end up being forced to just play Ambush Viper more oftenly than I'd wish.
I'm ok with having to do that sometimes against some fast Aggros or to impose clocks against some opponents that I'll want to beat fastly, but if that happens too oftenly, I'd rather play something else than 3rd Snappy.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
On a different note. How does everyone feel about Spreading Seas right now? Looking at the goldfish modern meta, sees only seems good against Tron, and medium in a couple other matches and really bad in a lot. I feel like Spreading Seas was great against Shift decks when we had Tectonic Edge, but with Ruin, seas doesn't feel like it does anything in that match. I feel like in the current meta Wall of Omens might be a better call than Seas. What do you guys think of this list? It's basically Ben's list -2 Seas, -1 Leak, +2 Wall, +1 Knot and some sideboard differences.
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Wall of Omens
Planeswalkers (4)
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Gideon Jura
Selection (7)
4 Serum Visions
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Sphinx's Revelation
Interaction (20)
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
1 Negate
1 Logic Knot
2 Spreading Seas
2 Detention Sphere
3 Cryptic Command
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Field of Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Prairie stream
5 Island
3 Plains
2 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dispel
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Condemn
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Negate
1 Ceremonious Rejection