Ok I wanna try a list with leyelines in SB and I'm gonna give you my feelings.
ATM I try a list with 3 spell queller in SB and I have a good feeling about them. In some matchups you can be a little bit more aggro and even when you cast them without counter any spell, a 2/3 with flash and flying is pretty good! I'll post my list here to have your opinions.
On a different note - what do people think about mixing up the wrath effects in their lists to hedge against Meddling Mage. Verdict is the best wrath that we can play, I don't think anyone will disagree. Settle the Wreckage is quite interesting and even better against certain decks/situations from my experience, but I think most of the time, verdict will still be much better. I have seen people even playing Wrath of God - is this a viable strategy? I think the uncounterable clause is so powerful that we want to run at least three verdicts regardless, but perhaps other people have had different experiences.
I do play a Wrath of God in my sideboard actually in addiction to my 3 main board Verdicts, and one of the reasons is Meddling Mage (other ones are Ezuris and Thruns). I like it on the sideboard, but I think that's exactly where it belongs. Because apart from Humans and maybe Elves (which is not a super popular deck right now), on Game 1 Verdict is just better against pretty much anything. It's much better against GDS, Jeskai Tempo and Merfolks, for example, and those 3 together are much more relevant and popular decks than Humans and Elves at the moment, at least on my field. In other match-ups they're pretty much the same.
Settle the Wreackage is occasionaly better, but I think in most scenarios it's just worse than the other 2, unless you're fighting Dredge or maybe a Company deck with some Kitchen Finks. So, in most cases, Verdict > *** > Settle the Wreckage in my opinion. Right now, I'm not sure Humans are strong enough to make us use some worse sweepers, probably weakening our Jeskai Tempo and GDS match ups (to point the most relevant ones) just to maybe play around Meddling Mage. Not to mention the possibility of getting Freebooted anyways. I wouldn't make such changes, unless you're playing in a field full of Humans and/or Dredge (in this case, I'd probably try one or two StW).
This list lacks early game interaction and has a lot of expensive spells. I am also not a big fan of the combo - way too slow against a lot of decks and makes grave hate actively good against you (especially with 3 Azcanta).
Its only 3 early interaction spells different from a stock list: 2 wall and a negate. While also replacing Rev with a Secure, which can be played fairly early. So in reality, it's only 2 spells less interactive than a stock list.
As far as gravehate being good against the list; it isn't. And that's because the combo comes out after game 1 if you expect it, ensuring that your opponent has subpar cards against you. Sure, Azcanta gets a little worse, as does Snap but that was always the case with this deck. Thirst gets a little worse as well post board, but it still seems fine to pitch away redundant Azcanta, leak etc.
I tried Thopter/Sword once in UW, and never went back. The added cards that are dead alone, were just too much dead weight. On the other hand, there just HAS to be a home for Thirst for Knowledge in modern.
Engineered Explosives probably belongs in the list somewhere.
In this list, there isn't a lot of dead cards. Normally you have to deal with drawing redundant copies of the combo pieces, but Whir of invention fixes that quite a bit. You're effectively playing 4 copies of the first piece, and then either 2 or 3 copies of the second piece (Drawing either Whir or Sword gives you 3 outs, while drawing Foundry gives you 2). But with so much draw power between Azcanta, Serum and Thirst, it shouldn't be hard to find the second piece.
Explosives could be okay. I don't like that it can only max out on 2 counters, or that it also hits the combo pieces as well as an unflipped Azcanta, but could definitely be worth exploring
Playing Wrath of God is a meta call. I would rather play settle the wreckage as the 4th sweeper(3 verdict main, 1 settle in the board).
I play a mind break trap in the board since there's a lot of storm online. I also bring it in vs valakut and tron decks and I get to beat these people who play cavern of souls or tutor for a big dumb green creature (gaea's revenge, thrun, and carnage tyrant). Settle the wreckage is also great vs those cards (gaea's revenge has haste).
I think if Gerry Thompson can't create a good thopter sword list it probably isn't worth exploring.
I think if Gerry Thompson can't create a good thopter sword list it probably isn't worth exploring.
This is a self-defeating sentence. "Authority A has been working on idea B, therefore idea B is bad". You can't appeal to authority to shut down an appeal to authority argument. Unless of course he has come out and said he no longer has intentions of working on it, which he hasn't it. And even then, it would still bad reasoning vis-a-vis appealing to authority.
The combination of cards is very strong, it just hasn't been explored thoroughly.
The problem with seas against burn is that games tend to go long, and we have path to exile, meaning we won't usually hurt their mana too much.
Spending 2 mana at sorcery speed to do so little just isn't a plan. No one would play stone rain against burn (and I get that seas is better, but still) because its just not an effect you want vs burn.
That being said, you don't want to cut all of your 2 cmc cantrips and leave a bunch of high cost spells in, which means it might make sense to leave a couple seas in for the cantrips. It depends a lot on what your 75 looks like, though.
I've played 3 verdict main, 1 wrath of god side in esper for a long time. Sometimes regeneration comes up, so it seems like a reasonable hedge to me. The meddling mage thing is also significant now.
IMO, halo isn't great in this deck. The number of planeswalkers make it too awkward at times. Compared to esper or jeskai, which play few to no walkers, this just isn't really its home. You could get away with it in the board, though.
The point of halo is that is amazing vs our bad game 1 match ups, storm, valakut, bogles. You can't lose to storm game 1 if this is resolved. You're a huge favorite if you resolve it vs valakut, it buys you time vs bogles. And halo has utility vs other decks.
Here are the ranges for the card, and you can assign your personal percentage to them
-you don't know what card to name or you name the wrong card (this happens vs burn)
-you name a creature and you eventually Wrath it away (halo gained you XX amount of life)
-you name a card and it buys you enough time to win (naming shredder vs lantern, naming Liliana of the veil)
-you name a card and it makes you a huge favorite (grapeshot, valakut, lightning storm)
The ceiling is very high on the card and the floor isn't that low.
Also you can bounce your halo and cast it to change the target. I did this to win a match vs bogles.
If your meta has decks with a wide range of threats (tron, burn, coco, jeskai) then I could see not playing halo. But I still like halo on mtgo.
As for seas vs burn, it's okay on the play, but pretty bad on the draw. And it also depends if you have better cards to side in. Burn's best hands are where they stop at 2-3 lands and seas helps vs those. If you have better cards to side in, do it, but if you're not gaining much by sideboading then I'd keep seas on the play.
Howdy folks, lurker here, been on UWC for a almost 2 months. I have a question for the group on tournament prep.
Preface: I've pre-registered for my first GP (April)Several local players I respect have suggested I take a less mentally taxing deck, the few that were encouraging my desire to play UW have suggested I choose my 75 firm asap and practice with the same 75 for the next few months to get a feel for drawing to one's outs and knowing what you have to count on.
So, making card considerations (like the Runed Halo discussion above)if I know that a particular card will be strong in a broader meta, like a GP, should I be practicing with the card at my local shop where it is not likely a great call against the field. And likewise, should I take my beats at the local shop knowing knowing I could be playing cards aimed at the known meta.
Next question, do you think the online meta represents the large paper event in any way?
In planning my 75 for a large event, is it really better to make that call months in advance or keep my options open trying cards as they come up in conversation here? I understand the value of having the lines well-rehearsed but if the game plan doesn't change, just the players (cards) should I be able to be flexible until the last few weeks of prep.
Honestly, most people are not going to crush their first major tournament. If you enjoy playing UW, play it.
Settling on a firm 75 (or very close to it) is good advice.
For playing cards bad in your local meta, it depends. Obviously you're giving up some points towards winning FNMs this way, but the payoff of better preparation may (or may not) be worth that to you.
The online meta and the paper meta do have some similarities, but the online meta moves very quickly, and the data we have from it is unreliable at best.
Decks can become popular/well position for a few days online, but that doesn't often line up with major tournaments. As well, many times "break-out" decks from GPs tend to influence the online meta in the coming weeks.
It depends on your experience with the deck/archetype. I've played control decks in modern for a while that switching our 5 cards in my sideboard is not going to make a meaningful change in my play, but it might for you.
I do highly recommend you make a sideboarding plan before hand, and think about it while building your board. I very often see people getting themselves into hard sideboard decisions because they have too many or too few cards to board in certain matchups. IE: playing a bunch of celestial purges might seem good to hedge vs shadow, lilianas, blood moons, etc, but when you sit down to board vs grixis shadow and realize you have 4 cards to board out and 8 cards to board in, it doesn't seem so great, especially since you might have to deliberate on which 4 cards come in during the GP itself.
So I know I've been off the beaten path for awhile, mostly messing around with ThopterSword stuff, but I've been playing some games with a slightly more conventional list, and I say slightly because I have taken some of the lessons I've learned from my interim musings and have started using it to inform my opinions on the more stock list. The caveat here is that i'm obviously not advocating for this list, just looking for feedback.
So, while messing around with Thoptersword, as I've mentioned, I've become increasingly fond of Thirst for Knowledge, so much so that I'm now trying it in a build with no artifacts. One of the reasons I like it so much is that it solves some of the "Wrong half of the deck" problem, pitching Paths where they are bad, pitching leaks late game etc. But also because of how effective it is at fueling Azcanta. So here's the list
I'm going to be testing Tragic Lesson in place of Thirst for Knowledge as well. It does something very similar but has the option of being actual card advantage as well in the late game. I also like the idea of being able to bounce Sunken Ruin, or Colonnade against opposing land destruction. There's also some utility in bouncing a land to protect yourself from Liliana of the Veil decks, especially 8 rack.
Round 1: Dredge
Won the die roll and was on the play. Was able to spreading seas their land on turn 2 and on turn 3. I dropped a Runed Halo and named Prized Amalgam after seeing 2 in the graveyard. Was able to control the board with board wipes and counters and took game 1. Game 2 he did dredge things and he had an Abrupt Decay in hand and was able to pop my Rest in Peace and swing for lethal on turn 4. Game 3 I had a Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace in my opening hand as well as a good curve of cards. Dropped the cage on turn 1 and then he abrupt decay the cage on their turn 2. I dropped a turn 3 rest in peace and that pretty much sealed the game.
Round 2: B/W tokens
I won the die roll and I had 2 spreading seas in hand as well as a Runed Halo. Turn 2 and 3 I put spreading seas on their dual lands trying to get them off black which hurt them for the first couple of turns. They were able to drop liliana of the veil on turn 6 and I dropped a Runed Halo naming liliana of the veil the next turn. Was able to control the board and won game 1. Game 2 he kept a 1 land hander and pretty much was screwed. I had 2 spreading seas in hand and was able to put them on the only 2 lands he had. GG
Round 3: Grixis Shadow.
He was on the play and he was able to strip my hand on the first 2 turns. I drew Runed Halo on turn 3 and dropped it and named death shadow. He dropped tasigur the next turn and was able to protect it with stubborn denial. Didn't find a supreme verdict and he took game 1. Game 2: I was on the play and this time he didn't strip my hand on turn 1 so I was able to put a spreading seas on his only black source. Kept a bunch counters in hand as well as a supreme so I was able to control the board and take game 2.
Game 3: Kept a hand with 2 paths and 1 celestial purge with lands and a cantrip. He was on the play and stripped my hand turn 1 taking the path. Turn 2 I was able to top deck a spreading seas which I put on their blood CRYPT. He kept digging bringing his life down to 6. Finally he dropped 2 shadows knowing that I had 1 path and a purge which I used on the shadows but he had a counter for the purge. I top decked a Snapcaster mage which I used on their turn to bring back a path and then activated collanade and swung for lethal. GG
Round 4: Jeskai Control
Game 1: This game was pretty much a counters fest. No action for the first 5 turns, only landrops and serum visions. On turn 6, I attempted to drop a Gott but it was met with a cryptic. I then leaked the cryptic but he had a spell snare. He then dropped a nahiri which pretty much left him with 1 mana open. I then dropped a Gideon Jura on my turn. He bolts Gideon on his turn and on my turn I try swinging in with Gideon. He cast a path to exile but I had a negate in hand with cryptic and logic backup. 5 turns later Gideon wins me the game.
Game 2: Opponent concedes because he had to go back to work since he says he's working the graveyard shift.
4-0
Won 12 packs so not bad for modern night. Overall, deck felt good. Runed Halo was the all-star for me tonight. Being able to have protection from a card expecially in the early turns pretty much won me rounds 1 and 2. And having cryptic to bounce back Runed Halo then naming another threat is great. The real MVP is spreading seas. There's alot of decks that are very greedy and being able to get them off color is huge. Sorry for the long post. Thx for reading!!
[...] we have really few slots in the maindeck. It's pretty much a filtering, so I don't see how it's better than, say, the fourth Spreading Seas.
I think what you're saying is that we don't have many flex slots, is that right? If so, I disagree, if you look at most people's lists there are a staggering number of 1-of cards that I think people would classify as flex spots. Or even some of the 2-ofs like wall of omens are often considered flex.
Also, I could have it wrong, but I believe some prolific player (Nassif, I think) has been advocating for cutting Spreading Seas all together. I tend to like Seas myself, but it can be very clunky in multiples and is one of my most often sided out cards.
Thirst has been testing quite well so far, played about 20 games with it so far and except against really aggressive starts, it has felt great every time I've cast it. Against the aggressive starts, especially on the draw, there just doesn't seem to be time to cast it, and I've died with it in hand a few times.
Fun fact: richocet trap only targets spells with a single target.
if you cast cryptic to counter + bounce, richocet trap won't counter it.
The problem in my mind is less unwinable matchups, but more unwinable games. Sometimes you just keep path/gideon/cryptic against tron, and you'll lose.
Sometimes you keep a bunch of hate vs living end, and it doesn't matter. Sometimes your opponent just has everything they need and there is nothing you can do.
Don´t know, I love the deck, but I think sometimes some matchups are impossible. And I´m not talking about our bad pairings, I mean, the enemy has a good sequence of cards and we have not enough cards to face him, or even if we had them we lack of threats and they are able to recover.
I just finished playing a comp league with Jeskai control (modified version of the SCG list). I thought it was the new hotness and I did 4-1 when I first played it. I went 2-3, and my 3 losses were to decks that I could never beat with the jeskai configuration (2x dredge and 1x tron). At least with UW you have a shot at beating tron. My tron opponent mulled to 5, yet had turn 4 tron. On turns 4, 5 and 6, he cast a karn each turn, and I some how countered all of them. I was out of counter magic so I slammed my azcanta thinking I had breathing room. But he topped decked worldbeaker exiling azcanta. I drew a secure the wastes and was planning on racing him, but he top decked a wurmcoil engine. I could have won the game if I top decked cryptic or path, but I didn't and couldn't do much since the opponent also had o-stone out but not enough mana to activate it.
My dredge opponents both played 1 copy of a land that kills other lands (ghost quarter and tectonic edge). I was planning on spewing off cards until I could get to my haymakers, but that didn't happen since I was stuck on 4-6 lands due to land destruction. The lack of grave hate in the current jeskai decks opens the door for graveyard decks. I'm going to go back to UW since rest in peace is so good.
Like what was previously stated, you can beat ricochet trap if you counter and bounce something, since that requires two targets and ricochet trap can only change one target. I haven't seen that card played lately, so I would have forgotten to play around it.
Humans seems like an unfavorable match up, but you can configure your deck to be better against it (playing wrath of god, or a couple of other removal spells main, dismember, condemn, oust). I could see playing one more 1 cmc removal spell, but I don't think playing wrath of god is worth it.
That's sort of what you have to deal with in modern, if you want to play with card draw and permission spells in modern without some sort of combo finish or early clock; the proactive decks can beat your reactive draws.
Burn - Leyline is amazing. Obviously they can kill it with destructive revelry, but they have to draw it and put the card in their sideboard.
Storm - It's okay here. I think halo is better since you can play it under remand or with dispel protection more easily. Storm will bring in empty the warrens though.
Here's how Caleb Scherer boards with his storm version against UW: In: 4 Pieces of the Puzzle, 1 Empty, 2 gigadrowse, 1 wipe away, 1 Echoing Truth Out: 2 gifts, 1 PiF, 1 Noxious, 1 Grapeshot, 1 Electromancer, 1 pyretic ritual, 1 Opt, 1 Unsubstantiate.
So some storm players side out cards that get hosed by leyline (gifts, grapeshot), but they bring in cards that bounce permanents. If you get gigadrowsed mindbreak trap seems really good. This list is not playing dispel in the board, so remand does not beat mindbreak trap.
I think most people will copy Caleb's list until a pro/pro team comes up with a different version that does well at the PT. Leyline is not an auto include, but I think there are enough bad cards you can take out, the 4x seas and 2x walls are pretty bad here.
Counter Company combo - I would not bring it in here. Half the time their combo lets them draw their deck, which means you lose anyways.
Lantern Control - it's pretty good vs this deck since it shuts off codex shredder and discard effects. Though they still play Pyxis of Pandemonium, and ghoulcaller's bell to get around it. They still play ways to kill it, nature's claim, beast within, seal of primordium. But I like it vs lantern, you can tap out vs them to cast it and not auto lose the game.
Mardu - It's great vs their discard, and I don't think they have enough spots to side out their burn. So your colonnades and planeswalkers can be taxed. They might play one disenchant effect (Wear // Tear). I would bring it in vs mardu.
Ad Nauseam - They go off at instant speed so this isn't worth tapping out for, and they have the laboratory maniac alternate win condition. I would not bring it in vs ad nauseam.
8-Rack - They auto lose to the card, and there's tons of infighting in their thread about splashing a 2nd color to combat this card. But this deck is not popular so who cares?
As you can see, everyone is prepared for the white hate permanents in the post board games. So you can play them and they can get blown up, or the opponent can go around them. This is why halo is so amazing game 1, it's very strong vs a lot of bad/tough match ups, as few decks have answers to them. You need to do some math to figure out how often you're going to bring it in vs the field. The GP day 1 meta game is pretty random, so I don't know if I'd want to play leylines at all.
It feels very good against the supposed "good match-up", while it has still room to improve against some others. Humans it's very tough, but playing less copies of Supreme Verdict isn't the solution - they are too good against Tempo decks such as Grixis Shadow, Merfolks and Jeskai Geist. Those are all good match-ups, in my experience. I might try a single Settle the Wreckage in spite of the fourth copy, to gain another slot against Dredge (other than Halo, Surgical, Purge) I'd like to squeeze one more Spell Snare in the list, because without Push/Bolt you're a little soft against fast starts by Affinity, Herbalist Zoo and Burn. I like my overall match-up against Affinity and Burn, but post-side we are much better than preside. Herbalist is quite a nightmare, but the spot-removal coming from the side really helps. I'm having less trouble than the usual against Ur Storm, expecially thanks to the Halos. I still have to test against Jeskai Control - Nikolich version.
The engine Azcanta + Jace is very powerful, and I don't really want to go below the two copies of both. I also usually run the fourth copy of Cryptic Command instead of the second Negate, but now that Control is coming back I really enjoy having more soft counterspells. Tectonic Edge is - STILL - imho much better than Field of Ruins. Expecially against Titanshift. It might be a bit of a personal choice, but I'm often glad to have it when I draw the land, compared to the scenarios where Field would be better.
@Thirst
TFK is cool and all, but we have really few slots in the maindeck. It's pretty much a filtering, so I don't see how it's better than, say, the fourth Spreading Seas. I'm fine with running the card even without artifacts - I did in the past - because in game one you're going to have some dead draws in every match-up. Still, I believe there are better options.
The main difference is you don't lose a land when you FoR your opponent. That makes it much better if you're planning to cast expensive and high mana costed spells like Gideon Jura, Rev, Snap + Cryptic, Snap + Rev, activate Colonnades, or even cast some cheaper spells leaving mana open for protection/disruption, like Gideon of the Trials + Cryptic. On most matches, you don't care that much about how much lands your opponent has. You just want to keep him off of a specific land, or disrupt their coloured mana, if they're on a greedy mana base (a lot of decks are). Most decks in Modern also run few basics, what makes FoR a better Wasteland in some point of the game when they have no basics left, and you do.
That said, I agree with you Tec Edge is better vs Valakut, because not only they play a lot of basics. His land count matter as well. But considering that's pretty much the only match-up where I'd prefer Tec Edge over FoR, IMO, you should play 4 FoR and maybe 1 Tec Edge if you'd like additional land hate.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
I think the hype on it is based around the fact that its free to cast against storm. Yes they can remand the grape shot but you will also still be able to hold up counterspells for their grapeshot too because your first spell was "free" to cast.
If storm wasn't popular on magic online mindbreak trap is not worth the slot.
One of ways storm can beat you is being on the play turn 3 and casting empty for 10 goblins. It forces you to have your answer in 1-2 turns or you lose. Sometimes you don't have double white for Supreme verdict on turn 4. Mindbreak trap is good vs that plan, and it let's you tap out for halo or search or let's you not fear gigadrowse.
Mindbreak trap is also usable vs decks that want to play 4+ mana spells (blue controlling decks, tron, scapeshift). And obviously it beats big green dumb creatures and people relying on cavern of souls before you can turn it off.
But if you aren't playing vs storm once every 10 matches, I would not play mindbreak trap as it's too narrow.
ATM I try a list with 3 spell queller in SB and I have a good feeling about them. In some matchups you can be a little bit more aggro and even when you cast them without counter any spell, a 2/3 with flash and flying is pretty good! I'll post my list here to have your opinions.
I do play a Wrath of God in my sideboard actually in addiction to my 3 main board Verdicts, and one of the reasons is Meddling Mage (other ones are Ezuris and Thruns). I like it on the sideboard, but I think that's exactly where it belongs. Because apart from Humans and maybe Elves (which is not a super popular deck right now), on Game 1 Verdict is just better against pretty much anything. It's much better against GDS, Jeskai Tempo and Merfolks, for example, and those 3 together are much more relevant and popular decks than Humans and Elves at the moment, at least on my field. In other match-ups they're pretty much the same.
Settle the Wreackage is occasionaly better, but I think in most scenarios it's just worse than the other 2, unless you're fighting Dredge or maybe a Company deck with some Kitchen Finks. So, in most cases, Verdict > *** > Settle the Wreckage in my opinion. Right now, I'm not sure Humans are strong enough to make us use some worse sweepers, probably weakening our Jeskai Tempo and GDS match ups (to point the most relevant ones) just to maybe play around Meddling Mage. Not to mention the possibility of getting Freebooted anyways. I wouldn't make such changes, unless you're playing in a field full of Humans and/or Dredge (in this case, I'd probably try one or two StW).
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Its only 3 early interaction spells different from a stock list: 2 wall and a negate. While also replacing Rev with a Secure, which can be played fairly early. So in reality, it's only 2 spells less interactive than a stock list.
As far as gravehate being good against the list; it isn't. And that's because the combo comes out after game 1 if you expect it, ensuring that your opponent has subpar cards against you. Sure, Azcanta gets a little worse, as does Snap but that was always the case with this deck. Thirst gets a little worse as well post board, but it still seems fine to pitch away redundant Azcanta, leak etc.
In this list, there isn't a lot of dead cards. Normally you have to deal with drawing redundant copies of the combo pieces, but Whir of invention fixes that quite a bit. You're effectively playing 4 copies of the first piece, and then either 2 or 3 copies of the second piece (Drawing either Whir or Sword gives you 3 outs, while drawing Foundry gives you 2). But with so much draw power between Azcanta, Serum and Thirst, it shouldn't be hard to find the second piece.
Explosives could be okay. I don't like that it can only max out on 2 counters, or that it also hits the combo pieces as well as an unflipped Azcanta, but could definitely be worth exploring
I play a mind break trap in the board since there's a lot of storm online. I also bring it in vs valakut and tron decks and I get to beat these people who play cavern of souls or tutor for a big dumb green creature (gaea's revenge, thrun, and carnage tyrant). Settle the wreckage is also great vs those cards (gaea's revenge has haste).
I think if Gerry Thompson can't create a good thopter sword list it probably isn't worth exploring.
This is a self-defeating sentence. "Authority A has been working on idea B, therefore idea B is bad". You can't appeal to authority to shut down an appeal to authority argument. Unless of course he has come out and said he no longer has intentions of working on it, which he hasn't it. And even then, it would still bad reasoning vis-a-vis appealing to authority.
The combination of cards is very strong, it just hasn't been explored thoroughly.
Spending 2 mana at sorcery speed to do so little just isn't a plan. No one would play stone rain against burn (and I get that seas is better, but still) because its just not an effect you want vs burn.
That being said, you don't want to cut all of your 2 cmc cantrips and leave a bunch of high cost spells in, which means it might make sense to leave a couple seas in for the cantrips. It depends a lot on what your 75 looks like, though.
I've played 3 verdict main, 1 wrath of god side in esper for a long time. Sometimes regeneration comes up, so it seems like a reasonable hedge to me. The meddling mage thing is also significant now.
IMO, halo isn't great in this deck. The number of planeswalkers make it too awkward at times. Compared to esper or jeskai, which play few to no walkers, this just isn't really its home. You could get away with it in the board, though.
Here are the ranges for the card, and you can assign your personal percentage to them
-you don't know what card to name or you name the wrong card (this happens vs burn)
-you name a creature and you eventually Wrath it away (halo gained you XX amount of life)
-you name a card and it buys you enough time to win (naming shredder vs lantern, naming Liliana of the veil)
-you name a card and it makes you a huge favorite (grapeshot, valakut, lightning storm)
The ceiling is very high on the card and the floor isn't that low.
Also you can bounce your halo and cast it to change the target. I did this to win a match vs bogles.
If your meta has decks with a wide range of threats (tron, burn, coco, jeskai) then I could see not playing halo. But I still like halo on mtgo.
As for seas vs burn, it's okay on the play, but pretty bad on the draw. And it also depends if you have better cards to side in. Burn's best hands are where they stop at 2-3 lands and seas helps vs those. If you have better cards to side in, do it, but if you're not gaining much by sideboading then I'd keep seas on the play.
Preface: I've pre-registered for my first GP (April)Several local players I respect have suggested I take a less mentally taxing deck, the few that were encouraging my desire to play UW have suggested I choose my 75 firm asap and practice with the same 75 for the next few months to get a feel for drawing to one's outs and knowing what you have to count on.
So, making card considerations (like the Runed Halo discussion above)if I know that a particular card will be strong in a broader meta, like a GP, should I be practicing with the card at my local shop where it is not likely a great call against the field. And likewise, should I take my beats at the local shop knowing knowing I could be playing cards aimed at the known meta.
Next question, do you think the online meta represents the large paper event in any way?
In planning my 75 for a large event, is it really better to make that call months in advance or keep my options open trying cards as they come up in conversation here? I understand the value of having the lines well-rehearsed but if the game plan doesn't change, just the players (cards) should I be able to be flexible until the last few weeks of prep.
I appreciate any responses.
Settling on a firm 75 (or very close to it) is good advice.
For playing cards bad in your local meta, it depends. Obviously you're giving up some points towards winning FNMs this way, but the payoff of better preparation may (or may not) be worth that to you.
The online meta and the paper meta do have some similarities, but the online meta moves very quickly, and the data we have from it is unreliable at best.
Decks can become popular/well position for a few days online, but that doesn't often line up with major tournaments. As well, many times "break-out" decks from GPs tend to influence the online meta in the coming weeks.
It depends on your experience with the deck/archetype. I've played control decks in modern for a while that switching our 5 cards in my sideboard is not going to make a meaningful change in my play, but it might for you.
I do highly recommend you make a sideboarding plan before hand, and think about it while building your board. I very often see people getting themselves into hard sideboard decisions because they have too many or too few cards to board in certain matchups. IE: playing a bunch of celestial purges might seem good to hedge vs shadow, lilianas, blood moons, etc, but when you sit down to board vs grixis shadow and realize you have 4 cards to board out and 8 cards to board in, it doesn't seem so great, especially since you might have to deliberate on which 4 cards come in during the GP itself.
So, while messing around with Thoptersword, as I've mentioned, I've become increasingly fond of Thirst for Knowledge, so much so that I'm now trying it in a build with no artifacts. One of the reasons I like it so much is that it solves some of the "Wrong half of the deck" problem, pitching Paths where they are bad, pitching leaks late game etc. But also because of how effective it is at fueling Azcanta. So here's the list
2 Snapcaster
1 Secure the Wastes
Planeswalkers (3)
1 Gideon of the Trials
1 Jace Architect of Thought
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Selection (9)
4 Serum Visions
3 Azcanta
2 Thirst for Knowledge
Interaction (20)
4 Path to Exile
1 Condemn
2 Spell Snare
3 Spreading Seas
3 Mana Leak
2 Detention Sphere
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Cryptic Command
4 Field of Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Plains
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Prairie Stream
Sieboard (15)
2 Settle The Wreckage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Dispel
1 Spell Snare
1 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Stony Silence
1 Vendilion Clique
Sideboard isn't optimized, just a starting point.
I'm going to be testing Tragic Lesson in place of Thirst for Knowledge as well. It does something very similar but has the option of being actual card advantage as well in the late game. I also like the idea of being able to bounce Sunken Ruin, or Colonnade against opposing land destruction. There's also some utility in bouncing a land to protect yourself from Liliana of the Veil decks, especially 8 rack.
Any thoughts?
Took this list out recently at the weekly modern night at the LGS. Here's my deck list
3x Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (4)
2x Gideon of the Trial
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Gideon Jura
Spells (19)
4x Path to Exile
4x Serum Visions
1x Spell Snare
1x Logic Knot
1x Mana Leak
1x Negate
1x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Cryptic Command
3x Supreme Verdict
1x Runed Halo
2x Search For Azcanta
4x Spreading Seas
2x Detention Sphere
Lands (25)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Field of Ruin
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Irrigated Farmland
4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Glacial Fortress
1x Mystic Gate
5x Island
3x Plains
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Vendillion Clique
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Dispel
1x Celestial Purge
2x Stony Silence
2x Rest in Peace
2x Negate
Round 1: Dredge
Won the die roll and was on the play. Was able to spreading seas their land on turn 2 and on turn 3. I dropped a Runed Halo and named Prized Amalgam after seeing 2 in the graveyard. Was able to control the board with board wipes and counters and took game 1. Game 2 he did dredge things and he had an Abrupt Decay in hand and was able to pop my Rest in Peace and swing for lethal on turn 4. Game 3 I had a Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace in my opening hand as well as a good curve of cards. Dropped the cage on turn 1 and then he abrupt decay the cage on their turn 2. I dropped a turn 3 rest in peace and that pretty much sealed the game.
Round 2: B/W tokens
I won the die roll and I had 2 spreading seas in hand as well as a Runed Halo. Turn 2 and 3 I put spreading seas on their dual lands trying to get them off black which hurt them for the first couple of turns. They were able to drop liliana of the veil on turn 6 and I dropped a Runed Halo naming liliana of the veil the next turn. Was able to control the board and won game 1. Game 2 he kept a 1 land hander and pretty much was screwed. I had 2 spreading seas in hand and was able to put them on the only 2 lands he had. GG
Round 3: Grixis Shadow.
He was on the play and he was able to strip my hand on the first 2 turns. I drew Runed Halo on turn 3 and dropped it and named death shadow. He dropped tasigur the next turn and was able to protect it with stubborn denial. Didn't find a supreme verdict and he took game 1. Game 2: I was on the play and this time he didn't strip my hand on turn 1 so I was able to put a spreading seas on his only black source. Kept a bunch counters in hand as well as a supreme so I was able to control the board and take game 2.
Game 3: Kept a hand with 2 paths and 1 celestial purge with lands and a cantrip. He was on the play and stripped my hand turn 1 taking the path. Turn 2 I was able to top deck a spreading seas which I put on their blood CRYPT. He kept digging bringing his life down to 6. Finally he dropped 2 shadows knowing that I had 1 path and a purge which I used on the shadows but he had a counter for the purge. I top decked a Snapcaster mage which I used on their turn to bring back a path and then activated collanade and swung for lethal. GG
Round 4: Jeskai Control
Game 1: This game was pretty much a counters fest. No action for the first 5 turns, only landrops and serum visions. On turn 6, I attempted to drop a Gott but it was met with a cryptic. I then leaked the cryptic but he had a spell snare. He then dropped a nahiri which pretty much left him with 1 mana open. I then dropped a Gideon Jura on my turn. He bolts Gideon on his turn and on my turn I try swinging in with Gideon. He cast a path to exile but I had a negate in hand with cryptic and logic backup. 5 turns later Gideon wins me the game.
Game 2: Opponent concedes because he had to go back to work since he says he's working the graveyard shift.
4-0
Won 12 packs so not bad for modern night. Overall, deck felt good. Runed Halo was the all-star for me tonight. Being able to have protection from a card expecially in the early turns pretty much won me rounds 1 and 2. And having cryptic to bounce back Runed Halo then naming another threat is great. The real MVP is spreading seas. There's alot of decks that are very greedy and being able to get them off color is huge. Sorry for the long post. Thx for reading!!
I think what you're saying is that we don't have many flex slots, is that right? If so, I disagree, if you look at most people's lists there are a staggering number of 1-of cards that I think people would classify as flex spots. Or even some of the 2-ofs like wall of omens are often considered flex.
Also, I could have it wrong, but I believe some prolific player (Nassif, I think) has been advocating for cutting Spreading Seas all together. I tend to like Seas myself, but it can be very clunky in multiples and is one of my most often sided out cards.
Thirst has been testing quite well so far, played about 20 games with it so far and except against really aggressive starts, it has felt great every time I've cast it. Against the aggressive starts, especially on the draw, there just doesn't seem to be time to cast it, and I've died with it in hand a few times.
I would love instant Oust. I've tried playing Oust, and I don't hate it actually.
if you cast cryptic to counter + bounce, richocet trap won't counter it.
The problem in my mind is less unwinable matchups, but more unwinable games. Sometimes you just keep path/gideon/cryptic against tron, and you'll lose.
Sometimes you keep a bunch of hate vs living end, and it doesn't matter. Sometimes your opponent just has everything they need and there is nothing you can do.
I just finished playing a comp league with Jeskai control (modified version of the SCG list). I thought it was the new hotness and I did 4-1 when I first played it. I went 2-3, and my 3 losses were to decks that I could never beat with the jeskai configuration (2x dredge and 1x tron). At least with UW you have a shot at beating tron. My tron opponent mulled to 5, yet had turn 4 tron. On turns 4, 5 and 6, he cast a karn each turn, and I some how countered all of them. I was out of counter magic so I slammed my azcanta thinking I had breathing room. But he topped decked worldbeaker exiling azcanta. I drew a secure the wastes and was planning on racing him, but he top decked a wurmcoil engine. I could have won the game if I top decked cryptic or path, but I didn't and couldn't do much since the opponent also had o-stone out but not enough mana to activate it.
My dredge opponents both played 1 copy of a land that kills other lands (ghost quarter and tectonic edge). I was planning on spewing off cards until I could get to my haymakers, but that didn't happen since I was stuck on 4-6 lands due to land destruction. The lack of grave hate in the current jeskai decks opens the door for graveyard decks. I'm going to go back to UW since rest in peace is so good.
Like what was previously stated, you can beat ricochet trap if you counter and bounce something, since that requires two targets and ricochet trap can only change one target. I haven't seen that card played lately, so I would have forgotten to play around it.
Humans seems like an unfavorable match up, but you can configure your deck to be better against it (playing wrath of god, or a couple of other removal spells main, dismember, condemn, oust). I could see playing one more 1 cmc removal spell, but I don't think playing wrath of god is worth it.
That's sort of what you have to deal with in modern, if you want to play with card draw and permission spells in modern without some sort of combo finish or early clock; the proactive decks can beat your reactive draws.
Storm - It's okay here. I think halo is better since you can play it under remand or with dispel protection more easily. Storm will bring in empty the warrens though.
Here's how Caleb Scherer boards with his storm version against UW:
In: 4 Pieces of the Puzzle, 1 Empty, 2 gigadrowse, 1 wipe away, 1 Echoing Truth
Out: 2 gifts, 1 PiF, 1 Noxious, 1 Grapeshot, 1 Electromancer, 1 pyretic ritual, 1 Opt, 1 Unsubstantiate.
So some storm players side out cards that get hosed by leyline (gifts, grapeshot), but they bring in cards that bounce permanents. If you get gigadrowsed mindbreak trap seems really good. This list is not playing dispel in the board, so remand does not beat mindbreak trap.
I think most people will copy Caleb's list until a pro/pro team comes up with a different version that does well at the PT. Leyline is not an auto include, but I think there are enough bad cards you can take out, the 4x seas and 2x walls are pretty bad here.
Titan Shift - In the sideboard games they will have 1-3 naturalize effects, and some of those that can't be negated (reclamation sage), or some come down before you can build a counter wall (seal of primordium). It's still good here, but most lists bring in big dumb green creatures (gaea's revenge, carnage tyrant, thrun, the last troll, woodfall primus, maybe some hasety red dragon, like stormbreath dragon or maybe inferno titan). I would still bring in leylines vs this deck, but this type of effect is not as good as it is in game one.
Counter Company combo - I would not bring it in here. Half the time their combo lets them draw their deck, which means you lose anyways.
Lantern Control - it's pretty good vs this deck since it shuts off codex shredder and discard effects. Though they still play Pyxis of Pandemonium, and ghoulcaller's bell to get around it. They still play ways to kill it, nature's claim, beast within, seal of primordium. But I like it vs lantern, you can tap out vs them to cast it and not auto lose the game.
Mardu - It's great vs their discard, and I don't think they have enough spots to side out their burn. So your colonnades and planeswalkers can be taxed. They might play one disenchant effect (Wear // Tear). I would bring it in vs mardu.
Ad Nauseam - They go off at instant speed so this isn't worth tapping out for, and they have the laboratory maniac alternate win condition. I would not bring it in vs ad nauseam.
8-Rack - They auto lose to the card, and there's tons of infighting in their thread about splashing a 2nd color to combat this card. But this deck is not popular so who cares?
As you can see, everyone is prepared for the white hate permanents in the post board games. So you can play them and they can get blown up, or the opponent can go around them. This is why halo is so amazing game 1, it's very strong vs a lot of bad/tough match ups, as few decks have answers to them. You need to do some math to figure out how often you're going to bring it in vs the field. The GP day 1 meta game is pretty random, so I don't know if I'd want to play leylines at all.
The main difference is you don't lose a land when you FoR your opponent. That makes it much better if you're planning to cast expensive and high mana costed spells like Gideon Jura, Rev, Snap + Cryptic, Snap + Rev, activate Colonnades, or even cast some cheaper spells leaving mana open for protection/disruption, like Gideon of the Trials + Cryptic. On most matches, you don't care that much about how much lands your opponent has. You just want to keep him off of a specific land, or disrupt their coloured mana, if they're on a greedy mana base (a lot of decks are). Most decks in Modern also run few basics, what makes FoR a better Wasteland in some point of the game when they have no basics left, and you do.
That said, I agree with you Tec Edge is better vs Valakut, because not only they play a lot of basics. His land count matter as well. But considering that's pretty much the only match-up where I'd prefer Tec Edge over FoR, IMO, you should play 4 FoR and maybe 1 Tec Edge if you'd like additional land hate.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
One of ways storm can beat you is being on the play turn 3 and casting empty for 10 goblins. It forces you to have your answer in 1-2 turns or you lose. Sometimes you don't have double white for Supreme verdict on turn 4. Mindbreak trap is good vs that plan, and it let's you tap out for halo or search or let's you not fear gigadrowse.
Mindbreak trap is also usable vs decks that want to play 4+ mana spells (blue controlling decks, tron, scapeshift). And obviously it beats big green dumb creatures and people relying on cavern of souls before you can turn it off.
But if you aren't playing vs storm once every 10 matches, I would not play mindbreak trap as it's too narrow.