Yeah I'm with TheAller here, we're not playing black so we need any amount of disruption we can get. Deaths Shadow and Jund decks are dominant because they combine disruption with a clock. Careds like Vendilion Clique, Spell Queller, Little Gideon, and Geist of Saint Traft are all huge in combo matchups since they either disrupt our opponent and provide a clock or just provide a huge clock that helps force an early engagement.
Yes this is true. I guess I should elaborate that personally I like surgical extraction in this spot. It's not as good vs ad nauseam but the trade off is it's also good vs tron and as I'm only playing online where tron is rampant it's worthwhile.
I haven't tried running creatures out the board and I'm not sure what I'd want to cut to make space for 2 or 3.
I don't have access to my decklist at the moment but my board is something like
Why not mainboard the spreading seas? They're fine in most matchups, great in others, and worst they do is draw a card. Then you have 4 slots in your board for better cards.
Well yeh but it's easier said than done to suddenly free 4 slots in the maindeck I'll get a full decklist when I'm home from work but it's similar to the As Foretold decklists on Modo
As I have been saying and will continue to harp on, monastery mentor is amazing in the role of sideboard threat against combo and control. Sure some decks might leave in some removal post board but they certainly don't have sweepers. Mentor almost always leaves behind a monk or two even if they have removal for him. 1/1 prowess dudes are still a very fast clock.
The downside is that he doesn't have any disruption built in for combo decks, but he is infinitely better against control than queller or clique while also being a much faster clock.
I've been extremely underwhelmed by clique in every matchup. Three power isn't a good clock and the hand disruption is often not that backbreaking for your opponent. It's rare I take a combo piece and they don't recover in the 6-7 turns clique takes to end the game.
-1 As Foretold, -1 Detention Sphere, -1 Wrath Effect, Move Crucible to the sideboard easy 4 slots.
Personally I'm not a fan of Restore Balance in a control build so I'd be cutting that, I haven't tested it at all myself so I'm not the best person to talk shop about that particular card. But spreading seas seems too crucial to pass up.
Tapping out for mentor isn't as bad against combo as you might think. If you're on the play it's unlikely they will be able to combo off turn three. You're right that it's not ideal though.
I definitely want mentor over clique or queller against valakut. In my experience slamming the gas pedal against valakut is the best way to win. They don't run that many threats so it's not terribly unlikely that you have a counter for them all. What kills me way more often is them just playing lands each turn. That's why I'd rather have a fast clock than a slow clock with disruption.
It is a bit of a cheese. So far I feel like it's been worth it. I have won all but one of the games I dropped a mentor on the last two weeks. People really don't expect it. Perhaps if it caught on it would get worse.
He also has some utility against fast creature aggro. It's not the most bomb of a sideboard card against them but he generates a lot of blockers and they are usually big enough to trade with their creatures.
I'm not saying that Restore Balance isn't a powerful card, but the default strategy of people playing the card tend to make their deck worse to make this card better. Playing 2-3 copies of Tolaria West seems pretty bad to me, I tested one copy to act as a 5th Ancestral Vision and most times I drew them it felt bad, and even worse if it managed to get in my opener. You also want more lands in a Restore balance build to shore up the times you lose a few lands, and you can't rely on As Foretold to be your mana base since enchantment hate isn't hard to find. I'd say 4 As Foretold is overkill, I play 3 and sometimes I end up with 2 on board which eventually becomes overkill, playing 4 copies with no way to get rid of them besides hoping to scry them away seems rough and leads to some dead draws.
My last point isn't necessarily about Restore Balance but singleton cards in general, why would people want to run a singleton unless it is so back breakingly powerful it wins the game. Elspeth is a great example of a singleton, crazy expensive, incredibly powerful, often wins the game either the turn it comes down or the next. Restore Balance probably has its moments, and hell a turn 3 wrath against some decks is likely the difference between winning and losing, but against those decks you also are losing your hand (affinity, burn, Bushwacker Zoo, etc). But would it be better if it was just another copy of condemn or path? Or another Cryptic Command or Snapcaster? I'm inclined to think it would be.
I should do some actual testing of the card before I completely write it off, it's just looking at restore balance at face value and some napkin math situations I have a hard time convincing myself I should. I hope you and others find success with Restore Balance and if you enjoy the way it plays then all the more power to you and I look forward to seeing more UW builds in general see some sweet results.
I'm considering playing Gideon of the Trials, but want to see if anybody here has any experience with him. In theory, he seems like a higher upside card to me than Detention Sphere.
I'm considering playing Gideon of the Trials, but want to see if anybody here has any experience with him. In theory, he seems like a higher upside card to me than Detention Sphere.
New Gideon is great for all the reasons that have been discussed previously and is the best upgrade the deck has gotten.
Some ppl believe and state that As Foretold is a good card and an essential addition to the deck. However, their meta must be devoid of fast decks - card hasn't been showing up in 5-0 deck lists recently and most likely wont be played in the next months when ppl figure out its just cute and not good. In my testing it just improves matchups we are already strong in or are a 50-50 - while substantially decreasing our win rates against fast decks. When I chat to ppl the real reason they run AF is for testing purpsoes or for 'fun' - that's fine to do at the kitchen table or FNM but that is not what I want to be doing when I want to win against an open field.
Deck is clunky enough without adding another bunch of clunky cards - and its not just AF that adds clunk - Tolaria West additions to support AF has in my hands lead to death - another tap land - argh..
I played with 3 little gideons nad 2 as foretold yesterday (went 3-0-1 finished 2nd). Gideon is a proven card for me - he's a BIG game changer and a great tool for UW control.
About As foretold - well I didn't play it without AV on hand (the best play is as foretold +AV) without AV I didn't have time to play it and give my aggro opponent free turn 3/4 - but tbh the only one game which I won against Eldrazi and Taxes (I lost 1:2) was after resolving as foretold and drawing bunch of cards
Against control matchups (I played against jeskai nahiri and grixis control) as foretold was just a game - they can't beat my CA.
Between all these experiences I started to think that as foretold is a "win more card" for us, we don't use its full potential.
Have to mention that I'm not playin these all fancy restore balance stuff - I found it a way too clunky and not complementary with our startegy at all (although I ran 1 tolaria west which will get the axe next time).
Well As foretold + AV is ofc great cheaty play and punch any midrange/control to the corner - but do we need this kind of "funny" card in the deck?
I'm curious about Your opinions after testings
i got massacred 1-3 in my last FNM playing 2 AF and 2 lil Gid. I gotta say, what's being said about AF is true: it's good in matchups where we are already favored or ahead but sucks against fast decks where we are on the backfoot. it really feels as a win-more card. On the otherhand, Gideon of the Trials was amazing all day. It can clock and pressure early and forces opponent to interact with it.
Okay, okay, I've given in -- I'm playing 1 Little Gideon. I've also cut As Foretold and Restore Balance.
But now I'm wondering: If I'm not (and won't be) playing Wall of Omens, is it worth it to run a second Little Gideon? And if so, what should I cut? Here's my updated list for reference.
P.S. I've foiled out the deck minus the Ancestral Visions (because they're due for a reprint and I refuse to spend $200+ on the foil Time Spiral version). If anyone would like to see pics let me know and I'll post some!
Okay, okay, I've given in -- I'm playing 1 Little Gideon. I've also cut As Foretold and Restore Balance.
But now I'm wondering: If I'm not (and won't be) playing Wall of Omens, is it worth it to run a second Little Gideon? And if so, what should I cut? Here's my updated list for reference.
P.S. I've foiled out the deck minus the Ancestral Visions (because they're due for a reprint and I refuse to spend $200+ on the foil Time Spiral version). If anyone would like to see pics let me know and I'll post some!
As someone who is interested in this deck, I'd very much like to see pics!
Going to write up an initial list for myself today then post it tonight to see if I can get any suggestions/comments. I'll mostly be testing/playing it online while I pick up the pieces in paper over the summer.
P.S. I've foiled out the deck minus the Ancestral Visions (because they're due for a reprint and I refuse to spend $200+ on the foil Time Spiral version). If anyone would like to see pics let me know and I'll post some!
Man Ofc post the pics right here ! Cmon, It's no offtop at all
I've been one of the skeptics about As Foretold in this thread but right now I think we're going too far in the opposite direction. I don't think we should rule out As Foretold and label it merely as a win more card. I think it's legit to be willing to run 1 to 3 copies of the card, I just don't buy the idea to go all-in in that direction and fill the deck with clunky cards such as Tolaria West and Restore Balance. But the interaction with AV is sick and helps us turn the corner super quickly. So myself I'm still of the same opinion on As Foretold: 1. It's legit; 2. It's not mandatory; 3. Shouldn't be the focus of the deck;
+1 TheAller. I found 2 as foretold very good in some matchups - and I don't want to take them from the deck. I ran 1 before and it was too much random for me - and Yes AF + AV is worth it.
I haven't seen any mention of Sphinx of the Final Word on this forum (and I've searched for it - no results).
Might we consider it a SB card for control mathcups?
An uncounterable, Hexproof 5/5 Flyer that makes all our Instants and Sorceries uncounterable seems great.
The downside is the 5UU CMC I guess...?
So after 10 leagues with the As Foretold version of the deck I can say im off it. I kept excel spreadsheets of data as I always do and compared it to regular U/W control for reference. I also put in the spreadsheet which changes I made after each league to the deck, the core of the deck never changed. I noticed I was slowly trickling down on As Foretold as the matches went on, first I cut to 3, then 2, and considered going to 1 but realized that I wouldn't be playing an as Foretold deck anymore, it would just be U/W with a spicy one of like you see with crucible sometimes. The only other concession I made in the deck for As Foretold for testing purposes was 2 Tolaria West, which eventually went down to 1.
My biggest concern with As Foretold over regular UW was that some of my good MU percentages were going down directly because of As Foretold. The DS MU got worse because I have another card they don't care about in my deck. This is not where I want to be right now, even MU like Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron and Affinity got worse because I need to be a pure CAB deck in those MU, and As Foretold takes a long time to make up for itself.
Initially I was pretty impressed with it. There were some cool t4's where you can serum off of as foretold, wrath there board and hold up path still. Having "six" mana on t4 is a pretty big deal for a blue control deck. However I probably would have been just as good if it had been another peice of interaction. However, that being said, I do think there is something there for As Foretold. I don't know what kind of shell, or if it will take a completely different UW shell or deck shell all together but I think it has a lot of potential. The card definitely tickles the Johny in me as well, casting Elspeth for free, drawing three cards for 0 mana and holding up five different cards on OP's turn feels great.
Coincidentally, when I went back to testing regular UW, the fist league I did I 5-0d and it just feels much better.
I haven't seen any mention of Sphinx of the Final Word on this forum (and I've searched for it - no results).
Might we consider it a SB card for control mathcups?
An uncounterable, Hexproof 5/5 Flyer that makes all our Instants and Sorceries uncounterable seems great.
The downside is the 5UU CMC I guess...?
Thoughts?
awful: win more card. 7cc is a LOT, and dont win the game, you can tap out and the opp combo (against nahiri jeskai for example) or play a wrath, or sacrifice with liliana -2....and not to mention that the card if awful against non control things, at least other SB control card have some other uses (vs combo or midrange for example).
So after 10 leagues with the As Foretold version of the deck I can say im off it. I kept excel spreadsheets of data as I always do and compared it to regular U/W control for reference. I also put in the spreadsheet which changes I made after each league to the deck, the core of the deck never changed. I noticed I was slowly trickling down on As Foretold as the matches went on, first I cut to 3, then 2, and considered going to 1 but realized that I wouldn't be playing an as Foretold deck anymore, it would just be U/W with a spicy one of like you see with crucible sometimes. The only other concession I made in the deck for As Foretold for testing purposes was 2 Tolaria West, which eventually went down to 1.
My biggest concern with As Foretold over regular UW was that some of my good MU percentages were going down directly because of As Foretold. The DS MU got worse because I have another card they don't care about in my deck. This is not where I want to be right now, even MU like Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron and Affinity got worse because I need to be a pure CAB deck in those MU, and As Foretold takes a long time to make up for itself.
Initially I was pretty impressed with it. There were some cool t4's where you can serum off of as foretold, wrath there board and hold up path still. Having "six" mana on t4 is a pretty big deal for a blue control deck. However I probably would have been just as good if it had been another peice of interaction. However, that being said, I do think there is something there for As Foretold. I don't know what kind of shell, or if it will take a completely different UW shell or deck shell all together but I think it has a lot of potential. The card definitely tickles the Johny in me as well, casting Elspeth for free, drawing three cards for 0 mana and holding up five different cards on OP's turn feels great.
Coincidentally, when I went back to testing regular UW, the fist league I did I 5-0d and it just feels much better.
These are exactly my thoughts. Sure it does some cute things - but this is a competitive thread. I wasted too much time testing and re-testing this card based on advice from this forum because I thought I was doing something wrong - oh well..
Id say the card fits into traditional restore balance or maybe (huge maybe) - living end - def not UW control..
LEYLINE OF SANCTITY - guys I am loving this card - try it in your sb!
I haven't tried running creatures out the board and I'm not sure what I'd want to cut to make space for 2 or 3.
I don't have access to my decklist at the moment but my board is something like
4x Spreading Seas
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Celestial Purge
2x Rest in Peace
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Stony Silence
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-as-foretold-control#online
The downside is that he doesn't have any disruption built in for combo decks, but he is infinitely better against control than queller or clique while also being a much faster clock.
I've been extremely underwhelmed by clique in every matchup. Three power isn't a good clock and the hand disruption is often not that backbreaking for your opponent. It's rare I take a combo piece and they don't recover in the 6-7 turns clique takes to end the game.
Personally I'm not a fan of Restore Balance in a control build so I'd be cutting that, I haven't tested it at all myself so I'm not the best person to talk shop about that particular card. But spreading seas seems too crucial to pass up.
I definitely want mentor over clique or queller against valakut. In my experience slamming the gas pedal against valakut is the best way to win. They don't run that many threats so it's not terribly unlikely that you have a counter for them all. What kills me way more often is them just playing lands each turn. That's why I'd rather have a fast clock than a slow clock with disruption.
It is a bit of a cheese. So far I feel like it's been worth it. I have won all but one of the games I dropped a mentor on the last two weeks. People really don't expect it. Perhaps if it caught on it would get worse.
He also has some utility against fast creature aggro. It's not the most bomb of a sideboard card against them but he generates a lot of blockers and they are usually big enough to trade with their creatures.
I'm not saying that Restore Balance isn't a powerful card, but the default strategy of people playing the card tend to make their deck worse to make this card better. Playing 2-3 copies of Tolaria West seems pretty bad to me, I tested one copy to act as a 5th Ancestral Vision and most times I drew them it felt bad, and even worse if it managed to get in my opener. You also want more lands in a Restore balance build to shore up the times you lose a few lands, and you can't rely on As Foretold to be your mana base since enchantment hate isn't hard to find. I'd say 4 As Foretold is overkill, I play 3 and sometimes I end up with 2 on board which eventually becomes overkill, playing 4 copies with no way to get rid of them besides hoping to scry them away seems rough and leads to some dead draws.
My last point isn't necessarily about Restore Balance but singleton cards in general, why would people want to run a singleton unless it is so back breakingly powerful it wins the game. Elspeth is a great example of a singleton, crazy expensive, incredibly powerful, often wins the game either the turn it comes down or the next. Restore Balance probably has its moments, and hell a turn 3 wrath against some decks is likely the difference between winning and losing, but against those decks you also are losing your hand (affinity, burn, Bushwacker Zoo, etc). But would it be better if it was just another copy of condemn or path? Or another Cryptic Command or Snapcaster? I'm inclined to think it would be.
I should do some actual testing of the card before I completely write it off, it's just looking at restore balance at face value and some napkin math situations I have a hard time convincing myself I should. I hope you and others find success with Restore Balance and if you enjoy the way it plays then all the more power to you and I look forward to seeing more UW builds in general see some sweet results.
Did you read any of the past few pages?
Gideon is the truth and the light. Play several.
Some ppl believe and state that As Foretold is a good card and an essential addition to the deck. However, their meta must be devoid of fast decks - card hasn't been showing up in 5-0 deck lists recently and most likely wont be played in the next months when ppl figure out its just cute and not good. In my testing it just improves matchups we are already strong in or are a 50-50 - while substantially decreasing our win rates against fast decks. When I chat to ppl the real reason they run AF is for testing purpsoes or for 'fun' - that's fine to do at the kitchen table or FNM but that is not what I want to be doing when I want to win against an open field.
Deck is clunky enough without adding another bunch of clunky cards - and its not just AF that adds clunk - Tolaria West additions to support AF has in my hands lead to death - another tap land - argh..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
About As foretold - well I didn't play it without AV on hand (the best play is as foretold +AV) without AV I didn't have time to play it and give my aggro opponent free turn 3/4 - but tbh the only one game which I won against Eldrazi and Taxes (I lost 1:2) was after resolving as foretold and drawing bunch of cards
Against control matchups (I played against jeskai nahiri and grixis control) as foretold was just a game - they can't beat my CA.
Between all these experiences I started to think that as foretold is a "win more card" for us, we don't use its full potential.
Have to mention that I'm not playin these all fancy restore balance stuff - I found it a way too clunky and not complementary with our startegy at all (although I ran 1 tolaria west which will get the axe next time).
Well As foretold + AV is ofc great cheaty play and punch any midrange/control to the corner - but do we need this kind of "funny" card in the deck?
I'm curious about Your opinions after testings
But now I'm wondering: If I'm not (and won't be) playing Wall of Omens, is it worth it to run a second Little Gideon? And if so, what should I cut? Here's my updated list for reference.
P.S. I've foiled out the deck minus the Ancestral Visions (because they're due for a reprint and I refuse to spend $200+ on the foil Time Spiral version). If anyone would like to see pics let me know and I'll post some!
As someone who is interested in this deck, I'd very much like to see pics!
Going to write up an initial list for myself today then post it tonight to see if I can get any suggestions/comments. I'll mostly be testing/playing it online while I pick up the pieces in paper over the summer.
UBRGDredge
Under Construction
WUBAd Nauseam
Man Ofc post the pics right here ! Cmon, It's no offtop at all
+1 TheAller. I found 2 as foretold very good in some matchups - and I don't want to take them from the deck. I ran 1 before and it was too much random for me - and Yes AF + AV is worth it.
Might we consider it a SB card for control mathcups?
An uncounterable, Hexproof 5/5 Flyer that makes all our Instants and Sorceries uncounterable seems great.
The downside is the 5UU CMC I guess...?
Thoughts?
My biggest concern with As Foretold over regular UW was that some of my good MU percentages were going down directly because of As Foretold. The DS MU got worse because I have another card they don't care about in my deck. This is not where I want to be right now, even MU like Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron and Affinity got worse because I need to be a pure CAB deck in those MU, and As Foretold takes a long time to make up for itself.
Initially I was pretty impressed with it. There were some cool t4's where you can serum off of as foretold, wrath there board and hold up path still. Having "six" mana on t4 is a pretty big deal for a blue control deck. However I probably would have been just as good if it had been another peice of interaction. However, that being said, I do think there is something there for As Foretold. I don't know what kind of shell, or if it will take a completely different UW shell or deck shell all together but I think it has a lot of potential. The card definitely tickles the Johny in me as well, casting Elspeth for free, drawing three cards for 0 mana and holding up five different cards on OP's turn feels great.
Coincidentally, when I went back to testing regular UW, the fist league I did I 5-0d and it just feels much better.
We will rebuild.
awful: win more card. 7cc is a LOT, and dont win the game, you can tap out and the opp combo (against nahiri jeskai for example) or play a wrath, or sacrifice with liliana -2....and not to mention that the card if awful against non control things, at least other SB control card have some other uses (vs combo or midrange for example).
These are exactly my thoughts. Sure it does some cute things - but this is a competitive thread. I wasted too much time testing and re-testing this card based on advice from this forum because I thought I was doing something wrong - oh well..
Id say the card fits into traditional restore balance or maybe (huge maybe) - living end - def not UW control..
LEYLINE OF SANCTITY - guys I am loving this card - try it in your sb!
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver