@polisciguy1123: You asked for more lists of current Pyro Prison decks and it's splash-color variants. The official primer (first thread of mtgsalvation) is up-to-date for decklists that have consistently hit the podium & Top8 finishers. This is a thread that is dedicated to Mono-Red Prison - Weaponized and Goblinized, but we do dabble in splashes. Trouble is no marked success from anything outside of the Stock List.
Rakdos Pyro Prison - that's been my focus lately, and I like the change of pace. But, outside of 1 significant finish, it's not a deckstyle that's established itself yet. Boros Pyro Prison - I ran that deck hard for a long time trying to make it click - despite its conspicuous absence in Top 8 lists everywhere. In the end? The only white card I played main deck was a single Leyline. It's not a contender. But, there is a healthy community of folks trying to develop it over at Boros-RED/White-Sun and Moon site here on salvation.
For more decklists, I recommend checking in at MTGtop8.com There are definitely some outlier decks which probably got lucky on their way to the top. But, it's a good reference point for ideas.
Ditto on Skred, generally cheaper than Prison and what I played for awhile before coming here. It's a fun deck and FNM viable, plus a little more forgiving than Prison.
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Current Modern Decks BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends." BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved." RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros." BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?" C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
For those playing Rakdos Prison (not me because after buying Chalices and Bridges the last thing I want to do is buy Lilianas), do you think the new ashiok will make it in? I’ve been keeping up on the talk in this forum and you guys are very close to dropping most things that are double black, it’s also at three mana which I know as much as anyone is a tough spot, but this thing is like a super charged Leonin arbiter combined with graveyard hate in a format where most decks benefit in some way from the graveyard, and some rely on it completely. Just wanted to bring it up Incase it was somehow missed, I’m rooting for all versions of Pyro Prison even if it’s not my version
Played Prison for the first time in awhile tonight and got smashed by Tron and UR Phoenix, but went 2-0 against Burn. Never saw a Moon even after mulling to 5 both games of Tron, and he got T3 Tron both games to boot. Phoenix I went 1-2; lost the third game because of two Phoenix that he got back (ON TURN TWO) after letting his cantrips be countered by Chalice. The one game I did win against Phoenix tho felt REALLY nice. I resolved a Chandra and Chalice on 1, and managed to protect it through multiple creatures and threats. Eidolon also made him waste a turn removing it every time I got one out, which REALLY helped. Overall I lost more games to Prison being temperamental and having terrible draws than I did from being outplayed (when I had what I needed, I was able to totally shut down the games I won). As much as I love the deck, the inconsistency of the draws and flooding/screwing reminds me why I took a break to go to Ponza and other decks (my store is infested with Tron and Amulet right now, along with Phoenix and Burn).
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Current Modern Decks BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends." BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved." RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros." BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?" C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
RAKDOS PYRO PRISON
Scored a 5-0 in an MTGO Competitive league on the 18th. Strangely, it wasn’t published in the Wizards MODO report on the 19th. Should be in the next one.
I’ve since tinkered a few modifications, but I’ll tell you one bully-titted fella that’s here to stay:
Phyrexian Obliterator
He’s marvelously positioned right now as a 5th Bridge, monster uppercut attack for 5, he’s impervious to a flipped TiTi, and squares up against wurmcoil and primetime.
He’s easier to cast than you might think, and there are times in game 2/3, that you pull out your blood moons.
Does he get stranded in your hand. Sure. Sometimes. But, you’ll see I’m running 7 discard effects:
Collective brutality
Liliana of the Veil
Haziest.
Obviously, I look forward to engaging in some strategic discussions about Rakdos Pyro Prison. For one, the Serum Powder is gone. Not surprising. Since London Mulligan in effect, I had to try a couple. 1.) Multiple Mull/Mana Rock allows me to boost the count of my high cmc spells. 2.) It also allows for multiple mulligans to find the right silver bullet in games 2/3. It's not a terrible fit, but the return from Powder is a bit too limiting -- too often it's just a rock. It takes up a slot in your hand, and you're pretty much never happy to see it. Begone!
Now, I recognize that this forum is traditionally a mono-red focused platform, and I don't want to steal the spotlight. To that end, consider this: Pascal Classen's Top 8 decklist from the April 10th in Ghent, Belgium - 393 combatants. Consider it? Damn well better celebrate it, kin! Titanic Achievement. He went heavy aggro (8 Rabblemaster) and backed up that overloaded 3-cmc slot with a pair of Dismember showcasing that life loss isn't that bad if it's on 1-cmc ramp.
The highest overall finish. Record Books: This is the most successful finish for a Pyro Prison deck ever.
The highest 1st place finish is me in a 72-person event, and there was also a fella that nailed a top spot in a 71-person event last year.
The highest Top 8 finish, previous to Pascal, was Russell Colosi a couple years ago. 300+ players and Russ did it two months in a row.
While I talk shop about B/R outlier variants in the coming posts, the focus really should be on the real Pyro Prison winner in Ghent. But, there's plenty of lava to spread around. Anybody else brewing up some sizzle?
What about R/b experimental Pyro Prison? So, this all started with a Grand Prix LA undefeated Day 1 deck. The following is the exact list by the original author, JakesMTG, used by FluffyWolf in a competitive Modern league: 5-0 finish.
MY ANALYSIS
Comment #1: This is NOT a Pyro Prison deck. It's far closer to a Free Win Red deck. Reason: 5 Blood Moon effects main deck, lack of a creature-based kill accelerated win-cons, high number of planeswalkers, and no manlands.
Comment #2: It's a fine effort that achieved a lot of publicity and success. But, I don't think it's refined for a broad-based meta. I made significant improvements in the mana-base and sideboard. The main deck got (9) total card changes and the sideboard got (8) total card changes. But, some of the cards were simply moved from one stack to the other: Goblin Rabblemaster principally.
Calling upon a background in Mono-Red Prison and B/R Blitzkrieg disruption, let's look at where I took this list in Mid-March, First Draft:
That's (13) total card changes in the (75). Enough to brand it a new deck? Unique unto itself? Shrug. Sure, let's claim it in Version 1.0
MAIN DECK SPELLS
Where the hell are the rituals! Right? Lack of acceleration and 'air' has resulted in this balanced 'fair' build.
--- Rabblemaster. GDI! He is in. If there's one thing we have learned it is that we can not expect to win without creature pressure. We are not the 1-trick pony of 'free win red'.
--- Liliana and associated double-black spells at a high count. They are out. No way. The implementation of (9) swamps in the original list is totally unreconcilable. I'm down to (7) swamps and I've trimmed away half of the Liliana spells and a bedevil. There is too much reaction/removal in the jakesMTG Master Prison original build. We must present a clock. Consider: Jund/BG Rock have adaptable answer cards, but they achieve wins primarily with their creatures and manlands - NOT their planeswalkers and removal spells.
Let's take a lesson from them. We gain control with our Locks and attrition-based pressure. But, don't forget that, like Jund-B/G, creature counts and tricksy lands are a huge part of our formula grabbing a win.
LAND
I'm gaining a great deal of playtesting knowledge from my Blitzkrieg days - found in the experimental pages of mtgsalvation (55 pages - no slouch). This arrangement is far more streamlined and adaptive. Master Prison had too many swamps and not enough fetch & check lands to find the right colors. Also, Lavaclaw Reaches is an unsung champion.
SIDEBOARD
I borrowed a lot of Pyro Prison mechanics to replace some puzzling choices by the original author. In Master Prison, 2 Crumble to Dust in a deck with 4 Blood Moons and a Magus of the Moon seems kind of ridiculous. Especially with only 4 rituals. The rest of the changes hopefully speak for themselves.
>>> The initial write-up seen above, with some light editing, from Mid-March was largely on point. I think that my critiques of jakesMTG deck list are somewhat harsh in their wording. But, to be fair, it's very hard to 'correct' choices by a fellow magic player in a succinct, polite manner. I give all the credit in the world to Jake for what he made - inspiring. <<<
VERSION 2.0 UPDATES
The 1st thing that changed was the mulligan rule: London Mulligan. So, a couple Serum Powder got added and an already top-heavy CMC scheme got even fatter. The fact that Angrath, the flame-chained was ever considered in the first place! So, my thought was to powder up and use (6) 'loot' effect/spells to sculpt the hand throughout. Add a 2nd Master of Cruelties and a Phyrexian Obliterator.
Next, trade away all of the remaining bedevil for less mana intensive spells (yeah, yeah, I know I'm saying this in the sentence that followed Phyrexian Obliterator ) for a dreadbore. So, what we're seeing in B/R as opposed to Red: a significant thinning of the 3-cmc spells slot AND a total removal of (5) rituals. Sounds cool, right? Only if the new 2-cmc drops can impact the board AND the high-cmc spells can get cycled into early game resources if needed. What's the best example of this? Collective Brutality. It's the new Tormenting Voice, and it's way better.
Is B/R better than R? Well, imho, Rakdos Pyro Prison 2.0 is the best version of B/R Prison in this meta. AND, that is all thanks to the Mountainfolk. Look for yourself. Pyro Prison tech is stamped all over the winning decisions of Rakdos Pyro Prison.
DECK SPOTLIGHT BONUS
Feature Film Presentation
Witness the showdown: titan vs. titan with a celebrity moderator.
Ding Ding Ding --- Ding Ding Ding
Corner 1: Russ Colosi, Stickballruss, piloting the original Master Prisonwith minor alterations
Corner 2: Ray Karkman, Raystack, piloting Rakdos Pyro Prison Version 2.0as seen above
Today's Referee: Douglas Wolf, Fluffywolf
Round 1 - Infect [Mono-red PP has this as heavily favored. With B/R, I didn't think it would be as much, but collective brutality is a beast. The drop in effectiveness is welcome, since we want to push strengths to other matchups]
Round 3 - U/R Control with the exarch/kiki package [pretty easy matchup, as long as you can stay ahead of snapcaster/denial and cryptic command strings]
Round 4 - Colorless Eldrazi Stompy [popular in the London Mulligan field as it's much stronger now, but a damping matrix/bridge from us equals gg]
Round 5 - Grixis Death's Shadow [favored matchup again with B/R. Excellent example of how Master of Cruelties and Obliterator far outclass a rabblemaster - plus I bring in Pia and Kiran from the sideboard]
For those doubters of Lavaclaw Reaches and Phyrexian Obliterator in a B/R Blood Moon deck, look and learn. This is a game 2 or 3 event where the Moons got sided out, and that left me with (20) black mana sources in the deck. Only the (3) mountains don't generate red, Thus Obliteration. And, Lavaclaw is a beast. I recently did 14 damage to a Tron deck during a few stalemate turns.
Hello Mountainfolk! As we know, War of the Spark drops next week, and we're all curious about Karn, the Great Creator, as well as Blast Zone. I've spent the last week or so testing them, getting in 31 matches against competitive decks, and I have a nice starting point for the discussion. Here's what I've been running;
9 Lock- moving a Chalice and a Bridge to the side feels like a great plan with Karn, allowing you to wish for a midgame Chalice on 2/3 to complete your lock, or in a pinch, just grabbing a Bridge and saving life by letting him die. I went a step further and dropped the 4th Bridge all together, and I haven't missed it. It feels like I'm running 5.
22 Land- With not only the addition of Karn, and the 6-drop combo piece he brings with him, but the addition of Blast Zone, adding another land hasn't hurt one bit, and has made everything nice and smooth. It also makes me more comfortable running a 7th 4-drop, which is Pia and Kiran, who is great with Karn.
8 Rabble, less Chandra- the idea is simple, clog the board with must-answer threats, or clear the way with removal long enough to find Karn. I haven't missed the 4th Chandra at all.
Karn- In matchups where we take a control role, he takes over the game in just a few turns. It crushes troubling matchups like Hardened Scales and Tron, where I played Karn to shut off O. Stone game 2 and they played Thragtusk, which is usually trouble for us. In this case I was able to grab a Bridge and it won me a game I normally would've lost. There's no doubt in my mind, he's a staple. The question is, how many? 3 has felt good so far.
Blast Zone- jury is still out as a 2-of, but it's definitely a 1-of. Things I've killed with it: Search for Azcanta, Detention Sphere, double Death's Shadow, Auriok Champion, and a Teferi with 8 loyalty.. so it's not bad!
Here's a few things to think about as far as the sideboard;
Welding Jar vs Spellskite- while Skite is better in more matchups, you can wish for Jar and play it the same turn, which is big. I won a game vs Jund because of it. It also protects the Lattice combo.
Batterskull- probably the weakest card. While it seems great, you really want it against control, and while I've wished for it a few times, it's lower impact than I hoped.. it might be better off being Hazoret or Stormbreath for the control matchup.
Relic/Crypt?- If you wish for an important 1-of and it gets destroyed, it could be useful to be able to exile your own graveyard.. in the case of Relic, it would give you infinite wish targets. I haven't tried It, but it could be useful.
I'm excited to see what you guys think and come up with in the next couple weeks, as well as my long awaited debut on MTGO with our new toys at my disposal!
Mom! No Fair. Caligula took our new toy Karn, The Great Creator and already built a fully realized, premier deck with it!
Now we can't playtest and develop our own creations, cuz he already made the best version.
For those not in the know, Caligula is a 1st class Mountain Man - long time contributor to the thread, suggested at least a couple staple cards for our (75) [I think you championed Eidolon], and actually came up with the name Pyro Prison.
Not surprising, he now pioneers a card which could arguably be called his namesake: The Great Creator. The best way to respond is point-by-point. Sufficed to say, I have already traded for a Mycosynth Lattice and 3 Karns are pre-ordered. The deck proposed above is the real deal. I'm in. 100%
>>> Forward >>>
Here's the idea behind some of my choices:
9 Lock- moving a Chalice and a Bridge to the side feels like a great plan with Karn, allowing you to wish for a midgame Chalice on 2/3 to complete your lock, or in a pinch, just grabbing a Bridge and saving life by letting him die. I went a step further and dropped the 4th Bridge all together, and I haven't missed it. It feels like I'm running 5.
The new mechanic which drives this engine is Glittering Wish - Karn takes our (60) card deck and makes it a (75) card deck. This enables us to incorporate so many versions of our deck into a single construction. Pyro Prison has had a carousel of archetypes. One of which was the "Toolbox" deck. Silver bullet cards like Torpor Orb, Grafdigger's Cage, and Witchbane Orb were pushed into builds to enhance the concept of 'The Sideboard Deck'. But, never so gracefully.
Now, more than ever, Pyro Prison IS the Sideboard Deck. Outlier hose cards that can equal gg are a mere 4 colorless mana away. And, by splitting staple lock pieces between the sideboard and the maindeck, you've eliminated redundant draws. Impressive.
22 Land- With not only the addition of Karn, and the 6-drop combo piece he brings with him, but the addition of Blast Zone, adding another land hasn't hurt one bit, and has made everything nice and smooth. It also makes me more comfortable running a 7th 4-drop, which is Pia and Kiran, who is great with Karn.
22 land sounds perfectly fine, particularly with Blast Zone. 7 4-drops is taking our mana ramp to the limit. But, Karn searches load the hand up with cards that can be cast on following turns while we wait for land to be drawn.
8 Rabble, less Chandra- the idea is simple, clog the board with must-answer threats, or clear the way with removal long enough to find Karn. I haven't missed the 4th Chandra at all.
I've always advocated for the Chandra, Torch of Defiance count to be 3-and-a-half. 4 is too much and 3 is too little. The 8 rabble plan was just proven successful in Ghent with a Top 8 in a field of 400 competitors - enough said there. Question: In a deck loaded with 3 drops and (6) 4-cmc planeswalkers that immediately provide extra draw, do we want to dabble with more ritual effects? The drawback is dead draws of hot air, but the acceleration into establishing a locked board is tempting. IF the 'London Mulligan' becomes permanent, then the advantage is increased. The Londong Mulligan rule favors Combo decks, and let's face it, this deck is a Combo deck. A new breed: Combo-Prison deck.
Karn- In matchups where we take a control role, he takes over the game in just a few turns. It crushes troubling matchups like Hardened Scales and Tron, where I played Karn to shut off O. Stone game 2 and they played Thragtusk, which is usually trouble for us. In this case I was able to grab a Bridge and it won me a game I normally would've lost. There's no doubt in my mind, he's a staple. The question is, how many? 3 has felt good so far.
Finally! A way to defeat Hardened Scales. As for Tron, Karn provides a way to side out all of your bridges and go for the aggressive approach, buuuuuut still be able to [i]wish[/i] into a bridge stowed away in the sideboard if Wurmcoils start slamming the board. Very neat.
Blast Zone- jury is still out as a 2-of, but it's definitely a 1-of. Things I've killed with it: Search for Azcanta, Detention Sphere, double Death's Shadow, Auriok Champion, and a Teferi with 8 loyalty.. so it's not bad!
I am completely sold on Blast Zone. 100% Since I haven't played your deck yet, I can't comment on the count.
Here's a few things to think about as far as the sideboard;
Welding Jar vs Spellskite- while Skite is better in more matchups, you can wish for Jar and play it the same turn, which is big. I won a game vs Jund because of it. It also protects the Lattice combo.
The Jar is a better Wish target, but Spellskite is a better natural play. Skite comes in against a lot of decks, and provides blocking - needed when the Goblins get sided out against a swarm deck. I'm leaning towards Spellskite.
Batterskull- probably the weakest card. While it seems great, you really want it against control, and while I've wished for it a few times, it's lower impact than I hoped.. it might be better off being Hazoret or Stormbreath for the control matchup.
I've tried Batterskull, and your correct to identify it as the weakest card. With Karn, it's never really in your hand, but it is. So, go ahead and indulge with a pet card.
Relic/Crypt?- If you wish for an important 1-of and it gets destroyed, it could be useful to be able to exile your own graveyard.. in the case of Relic, it would give you infinite wish targets. I haven't tried It, but it could be useful.
Tormod's Crypt gets overwhelmed pretty readily. The Relic of Progenitus is a very novel idea (exile mechanic with Karn), and even poses an interesting conundrum: if you have 2 in your sideboard, how many do you bring in for games 2 and 3? Think of it. In your deck, the chances of drawing one is 1 out of 30, but if you leave one in your sideboard, then the odds of drawing one after you've cast one of your (3) Karns is something like 1 out of 12 || math not accounting for the 7 drawn cards to start the game.
SUMMARY
Well, if you can't tell, I'm excited. I've carefully reviewed your proposed build Caligula, and I think it's exceptional. And, yet I think it is also elementary. All the trademark stamps of Pyro Prison are on full display. It must have felt like a very natural process - the designing. The 'Core 50', as Fluffy and Russ like to call it, underpins the deck - although Karn shifts the counts of cards a bit between the MD and SB. And, the sideboard showcases our all-star silver bullets. Nevertheless, to your credit, the removal complement main deck (3 Abrade/2 Slag) and selection of sideboard tools are impressive. I don't think I'll change very much when I sit down, and take my turn to become 'The Great Creator'.
My one [i]wish[/i]? To have been there at the beginning. I know you've been exclaiming how overjoyed you've been with developing your new deck. If only I could have been there. To follow the path of decisions and contribute ideas. Sure, playing is fun, but the best part of Magic is creating. Well, let the tinkering begin!
It's been about 3 weeks of solid testing and development of Rakdos Pyro Prison, and this list is where I have landed. I'm pretty firm on each card. And, yes, that includes the Obliterator. Aaaand, no, I'm not insane. (7) discard-loot outlets, and I have (20) black land mana sources.
To be brief, I endorse the deck. I think it is on the level with mono-red prison - maybe better, especially given the castable graveyard hate. So, give it a spin. I'm tossing my saddle on Karn for the next few weeks.
Hey guys !
What do you think about Crook of Condemnation over relic or crypt as a "pseudo-recursive-graveyard-hate-wish-target" for Karn ? Doesn't get countered by chalice on 1, doesn't let the card choice to our opponent, doesn't draw when we need to camp behind bridge...
Can it be worth it to give it a try ?
Also, what about Trinisphere in place of a 3rd or 4th Eidolon ?
Is this the right deck for the Karn, The Great CreatorMycosynth Lattice combo? After getting completely hosed in salt by U Tron who's main plan was this combo, I want to try it myself. I'm currently playing Martyr and the amount of chalice decks online lately has been insane. My new toy God-Eternal Oketra has won a number of games through chalices, but Karn/Mycosynth is obviously endgame. I both like and hate these prison decks at the same time and I'm trying to think if it makes more sense in Rw prison or U tron or if it could even have a place in G tron? I think this deck is the most appealing of the options though for me.
I keep seeing comments, the gist of which are 'Red decks are f*cked with the London mulligan rule. Everybody should play Tron, Whir Prison or UW Control.' Can I get some reassurance please?!
I keep seeing comments, the gist of which are 'Red decks are f*cked with the London mulligan rule. Everybody should play Tron, Whir Prison or UW Control.' Can I get some reassurance please?!
Turn 1 lock pieces may become a bit more common...
However if Tron and Control go up in the meta as a result of London Mulligan those are not necessarily great match-ups for us. But that is also why we have gone up in early, fast threats such as Legion Warboss and Goblin Rabblemaster. Getting those cards down early can make us a bit favored against Tron and other slower decks.
This deck needs to evolve to the meta. If Blood Moon is really good by itself in the meta we go up on Magus of the Moon and down threats. If Blood Moon is bad by itself, like right now in the meta, we bring in more threats instead. So if Tron and Control go up with the London Mulligan we will have to evolve a bit and maybe bring more quick threats or more hate. We will just have to see.
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My current modern paper decks with current match records since 02/01/17:
Rakdos Pyro Prison - that's been my focus lately, and I like the change of pace. But, outside of 1 significant finish, it's not a deckstyle that's established itself yet.
Boros Pyro Prison - I ran that deck hard for a long time trying to make it click - despite its conspicuous absence in Top 8 lists everywhere. In the end? The only white card I played main deck was a single Leyline. It's not a contender. But, there is a healthy community of folks trying to develop it over at Boros-RED/White-Sun and Moon site here on salvation.
For more decklists, I recommend checking in at MTGtop8.com There are definitely some outlier decks which probably got lucky on their way to the top. But, it's a good reference point for ideas.
Ditto on Skred, generally cheaper than Prison and what I played for awhile before coming here. It's a fun deck and FNM viable, plus a little more forgiving than Prison.
BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends."
BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved."
RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros."
BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?"
C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends."
BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved."
RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros."
BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?"
C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
Scored a 5-0 in an MTGO Competitive league on the 18th. Strangely, it wasn’t published in the Wizards MODO report on the 19th. Should be in the next one.
I’ve since tinkered a few modifications, but I’ll tell you one bully-titted fella that’s here to stay:
Phyrexian Obliterator
He’s marvelously positioned right now as a 5th Bridge, monster uppercut attack for 5, he’s impervious to a flipped TiTi, and squares up against wurmcoil and primetime.
He’s easier to cast than you might think, and there are times in game 2/3, that you pull out your blood moons.
Does he get stranded in your hand. Sure. Sometimes. But, you’ll see I’m running 7 discard effects:
Collective brutality
Liliana of the Veil
Haziest.
I’ll post an updated list sooooon.
literally what the **** man
Rakdos (pyro) Prison 5-0
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1834435#paper
Obviously, I look forward to engaging in some strategic discussions about Rakdos Pyro Prison. For one, the Serum Powder is gone. Not surprising. Since London Mulligan in effect, I had to try a couple. 1.) Multiple Mull/Mana Rock allows me to boost the count of my high cmc spells. 2.) It also allows for multiple mulligans to find the right silver bullet in games 2/3. It's not a terrible fit, but the return from Powder is a bit too limiting -- too often it's just a rock. It takes up a slot in your hand, and you're pretty much never happy to see it. Begone!
Now, I recognize that this forum is traditionally a mono-red focused platform, and I don't want to steal the spotlight. To that end, consider this: Pascal Classen's Top 8 decklist from the April 10th in Ghent, Belgium - 393 combatants. Consider it? Damn well better celebrate it, kin! Titanic Achievement. He went heavy aggro (8 Rabblemaster) and backed up that overloaded 3-cmc slot with a pair of Dismember showcasing that life loss isn't that bad if it's on 1-cmc ramp.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21670&d=345570&f=MO
Trophy Case
What about R/b experimental Pyro Prison? So, this all started with a Grand Prix LA undefeated Day 1 deck. The following is the exact list by the original author, JakesMTG, used by FluffyWolf in a competitive Modern league: 5-0 finish.
https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/VlKpaM_pH
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Master of Cruelties
4 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Abrade
3 Bedevil
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
3 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Graven Cairns
3 Mountain
9 Swamp
1 Temple of Malice
60 Cards
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Crumble to Dust
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
2 Stormbreath Dragon
MY ANALYSIS
Comment #1: This is NOT a Pyro Prison deck. It's far closer to a Free Win Red deck. Reason: 5 Blood Moon effects main deck, lack of a creature-based kill accelerated win-cons, high number of planeswalkers, and no manlands.
Comment #2: It's a fine effort that achieved a lot of publicity and success. But, I don't think it's refined for a broad-based meta. I made significant improvements in the mana-base and sideboard. The main deck got (9) total card changes and the sideboard got (8) total card changes. But, some of the cards were simply moved from one stack to the other: Goblin Rabblemaster principally.
Calling upon a background in Mono-Red Prison and B/R Blitzkrieg disruption, let's look at where I took this list in Mid-March, First Draft:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
Creatures (5)
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Master of Cruelties
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (6)
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Angrath, the Flame-Cursed
Removal (10)
4 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Bedevil
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Lands (23)
7 Swamp
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Graven Cairns
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damping Matrix
2 Torpor Orb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
That's (13) total card changes in the (75). Enough to brand it a new deck? Unique unto itself? Shrug. Sure, let's claim it in Version 1.0
MAIN DECK SPELLS
Where the hell are the rituals! Right? Lack of acceleration and 'air' has resulted in this balanced 'fair' build.
--- Rabblemaster. GDI! He is in. If there's one thing we have learned it is that we can not expect to win without creature pressure. We are not the 1-trick pony of 'free win red'.
--- Liliana and associated double-black spells at a high count. They are out. No way. The implementation of (9) swamps in the original list is totally unreconcilable. I'm down to (7) swamps and I've trimmed away half of the Liliana spells and a bedevil. There is too much reaction/removal in the jakesMTG Master Prison original build. We must present a clock. Consider: Jund/BG Rock have adaptable answer cards, but they achieve wins primarily with their creatures and manlands - NOT their planeswalkers and removal spells.
Let's take a lesson from them. We gain control with our Locks and attrition-based pressure. But, don't forget that, like Jund-B/G, creature counts and tricksy lands are a huge part of our formula grabbing a win.
LAND
I'm gaining a great deal of playtesting knowledge from my Blitzkrieg days - found in the experimental pages of mtgsalvation (55 pages - no slouch). This arrangement is far more streamlined and adaptive. Master Prison had too many swamps and not enough fetch & check lands to find the right colors. Also, Lavaclaw Reaches is an unsung champion.
SIDEBOARD
I borrowed a lot of Pyro Prison mechanics to replace some puzzling choices by the original author. In Master Prison, 2 Crumble to Dust in a deck with 4 Blood Moons and a Magus of the Moon seems kind of ridiculous. Especially with only 4 rituals. The rest of the changes hopefully speak for themselves.
>>> The initial write-up seen above, with some light editing, from Mid-March was largely on point. I think that my critiques of jakesMTG deck list are somewhat harsh in their wording. But, to be fair, it's very hard to 'correct' choices by a fellow magic player in a succinct, polite manner. I give all the credit in the world to Jake for what he made - inspiring. <<<
April 18th || Raystack || 5-0 List
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
Creatures (7)
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Master of Cruelties
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Liliana of the Veil
Removal (7)
3 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Dreadbore
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Serum Powder
Lands (23)
7 Swamp
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Graven Cairns
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Damping Matrix
1 Torpor Orb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Slaughter Games
VERSION 2.0 UPDATES
The 1st thing that changed was the mulligan rule: London Mulligan. So, a couple Serum Powder got added and an already top-heavy CMC scheme got even fatter. The fact that Angrath, the flame-chained was ever considered in the first place! So, my thought was to powder up and use (6) 'loot' effect/spells to sculpt the hand throughout. Add a 2nd Master of Cruelties and a Phyrexian Obliterator.
Next, trade away all of the remaining bedevil for less mana intensive spells (yeah, yeah, I know I'm saying this in the sentence that followed Phyrexian Obliterator ) for a dreadbore. So, what we're seeing in B/R as opposed to Red: a significant thinning of the 3-cmc spells slot AND a total removal of (5) rituals. Sounds cool, right? Only if the new 2-cmc drops can impact the board AND the high-cmc spells can get cycled into early game resources if needed. What's the best example of this? Collective Brutality. It's the new Tormenting Voice, and it's way better.
Is B/R better than R? Well, imho, Rakdos Pyro Prison 2.0 is the best version of B/R Prison in this meta. AND, that is all thanks to the Mountainfolk. Look for yourself. Pyro Prison tech is stamped all over the winning decisions of Rakdos Pyro Prison.
Feature Film Presentation
Witness the showdown: titan vs. titan with a celebrity moderator.
Ding Ding Ding --- Ding Ding Ding
Corner 1: Russ Colosi, Stickballruss, piloting the original Master Prison with minor alterations
Corner 2: Ray Karkman, Raystack, piloting Rakdos Pyro Prison Version 2.0 as seen above
Today's Referee: Douglas Wolf, Fluffywolf
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/412643117
Start the Tape at 47minutes and 47seconds, and enjoy 3 rounds of action with a very active commentary stream on TwitchTV.
Round 2 - Mirror (of sorts) | feature film linked above
Round 3 - U/R Control with the exarch/kiki package [pretty easy matchup, as long as you can stay ahead of snapcaster/denial and cryptic command strings]
Round 4 - Colorless Eldrazi Stompy [popular in the London Mulligan field as it's much stronger now, but a damping matrix/bridge from us equals gg]
Round 5 - Grixis Death's Shadow [favored matchup again with B/R. Excellent example of how Master of Cruelties and Obliterator far outclass a rabblemaster - plus I bring in Pia and Kiran from the sideboard]
4 Legion Warboss
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Blood Moon
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Slagstorm
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Ramunap Ruins
3 Gemstone Caverns
2 Blast Zone
13 Mountain
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Walking Ballista
1 Welding Jar
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Torpor Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Batterskull
1 Mycosynth Lattice
Here's the idea behind some of my choices:
9 Lock- moving a Chalice and a Bridge to the side feels like a great plan with Karn, allowing you to wish for a midgame Chalice on 2/3 to complete your lock, or in a pinch, just grabbing a Bridge and saving life by letting him die. I went a step further and dropped the 4th Bridge all together, and I haven't missed it. It feels like I'm running 5.
22 Land- With not only the addition of Karn, and the 6-drop combo piece he brings with him, but the addition of Blast Zone, adding another land hasn't hurt one bit, and has made everything nice and smooth. It also makes me more comfortable running a 7th 4-drop, which is Pia and Kiran, who is great with Karn.
8 Rabble, less Chandra- the idea is simple, clog the board with must-answer threats, or clear the way with removal long enough to find Karn. I haven't missed the 4th Chandra at all.
Karn- In matchups where we take a control role, he takes over the game in just a few turns. It crushes troubling matchups like Hardened Scales and Tron, where I played Karn to shut off O. Stone game 2 and they played Thragtusk, which is usually trouble for us. In this case I was able to grab a Bridge and it won me a game I normally would've lost. There's no doubt in my mind, he's a staple. The question is, how many? 3 has felt good so far.
Blast Zone- jury is still out as a 2-of, but it's definitely a 1-of. Things I've killed with it: Search for Azcanta, Detention Sphere, double Death's Shadow, Auriok Champion, and a Teferi with 8 loyalty.. so it's not bad!
Here's a few things to think about as far as the sideboard;
Welding Jar vs Spellskite- while Skite is better in more matchups, you can wish for Jar and play it the same turn, which is big. I won a game vs Jund because of it. It also protects the Lattice combo.
Batterskull- probably the weakest card. While it seems great, you really want it against control, and while I've wished for it a few times, it's lower impact than I hoped.. it might be better off being Hazoret or Stormbreath for the control matchup.
Relic/Crypt?- If you wish for an important 1-of and it gets destroyed, it could be useful to be able to exile your own graveyard.. in the case of Relic, it would give you infinite wish targets. I haven't tried It, but it could be useful.
I'm excited to see what you guys think and come up with in the next couple weeks, as well as my long awaited debut on MTGO with our new toys at my disposal!
Now we can't playtest and develop our own creations, cuz he already made the best version.
For those not in the know, Caligula is a 1st class Mountain Man - long time contributor to the thread, suggested at least a couple staple cards for our (75) [I think you championed Eidolon], and actually came up with the name Pyro Prison.
Not surprising, he now pioneers a card which could arguably be called his namesake: The Great Creator. The best way to respond is point-by-point. Sufficed to say, I have already traded for a Mycosynth Lattice and 3 Karns are pre-ordered. The deck proposed above is the real deal. I'm in. 100%
>>> Forward >>>
Here's the idea behind some of my choices:
9 Lock- moving a Chalice and a Bridge to the side feels like a great plan with Karn, allowing you to wish for a midgame Chalice on 2/3 to complete your lock, or in a pinch, just grabbing a Bridge and saving life by letting him die. I went a step further and dropped the 4th Bridge all together, and I haven't missed it. It feels like I'm running 5.
The new mechanic which drives this engine is Glittering Wish - Karn takes our (60) card deck and makes it a (75) card deck. This enables us to incorporate so many versions of our deck into a single construction. Pyro Prison has had a carousel of archetypes. One of which was the "Toolbox" deck. Silver bullet cards like Torpor Orb, Grafdigger's Cage, and Witchbane Orb were pushed into builds to enhance the concept of 'The Sideboard Deck'. But, never so gracefully.
Now, more than ever, Pyro Prison IS the Sideboard Deck. Outlier hose cards that can equal gg are a mere 4 colorless mana away. And, by splitting staple lock pieces between the sideboard and the maindeck, you've eliminated redundant draws. Impressive.
22 Land- With not only the addition of Karn, and the 6-drop combo piece he brings with him, but the addition of Blast Zone, adding another land hasn't hurt one bit, and has made everything nice and smooth. It also makes me more comfortable running a 7th 4-drop, which is Pia and Kiran, who is great with Karn.
22 land sounds perfectly fine, particularly with Blast Zone. 7 4-drops is taking our mana ramp to the limit. But, Karn searches load the hand up with cards that can be cast on following turns while we wait for land to be drawn.
8 Rabble, less Chandra- the idea is simple, clog the board with must-answer threats, or clear the way with removal long enough to find Karn. I haven't missed the 4th Chandra at all.
I've always advocated for the Chandra, Torch of Defiance count to be 3-and-a-half. 4 is too much and 3 is too little. The 8 rabble plan was just proven successful in Ghent with a Top 8 in a field of 400 competitors - enough said there. Question: In a deck loaded with 3 drops and (6) 4-cmc planeswalkers that immediately provide extra draw, do we want to dabble with more ritual effects? The drawback is dead draws of hot air, but the acceleration into establishing a locked board is tempting. IF the 'London Mulligan' becomes permanent, then the advantage is increased. The Londong Mulligan rule favors Combo decks, and let's face it, this deck is a Combo deck. A new breed: Combo-Prison deck.
Karn- In matchups where we take a control role, he takes over the game in just a few turns. It crushes troubling matchups like Hardened Scales and Tron, where I played Karn to shut off O. Stone game 2 and they played Thragtusk, which is usually trouble for us. In this case I was able to grab a Bridge and it won me a game I normally would've lost. There's no doubt in my mind, he's a staple. The question is, how many? 3 has felt good so far.
Finally! A way to defeat Hardened Scales. As for Tron, Karn provides a way to side out all of your bridges and go for the aggressive approach, buuuuuut still be able to [i]wish[/i] into a bridge stowed away in the sideboard if Wurmcoils start slamming the board. Very neat.
Blast Zone- jury is still out as a 2-of, but it's definitely a 1-of. Things I've killed with it: Search for Azcanta, Detention Sphere, double Death's Shadow, Auriok Champion, and a Teferi with 8 loyalty.. so it's not bad!
I am completely sold on Blast Zone. 100% Since I haven't played your deck yet, I can't comment on the count.
Here's a few things to think about as far as the sideboard;
Welding Jar vs Spellskite- while Skite is better in more matchups, you can wish for Jar and play it the same turn, which is big. I won a game vs Jund because of it. It also protects the Lattice combo.
The Jar is a better Wish target, but Spellskite is a better natural play. Skite comes in against a lot of decks, and provides blocking - needed when the Goblins get sided out against a swarm deck. I'm leaning towards Spellskite.
Batterskull- probably the weakest card. While it seems great, you really want it against control, and while I've wished for it a few times, it's lower impact than I hoped.. it might be better off being Hazoret or Stormbreath for the control matchup.
I've tried Batterskull, and your correct to identify it as the weakest card. With Karn, it's never really in your hand, but it is. So, go ahead and indulge with a pet card.
Relic/Crypt?- If you wish for an important 1-of and it gets destroyed, it could be useful to be able to exile your own graveyard.. in the case of Relic, it would give you infinite wish targets. I haven't tried It, but it could be useful.
Tormod's Crypt gets overwhelmed pretty readily. The Relic of Progenitus is a very novel idea (exile mechanic with Karn), and even poses an interesting conundrum: if you have 2 in your sideboard, how many do you bring in for games 2 and 3? Think of it. In your deck, the chances of drawing one is 1 out of 30, but if you leave one in your sideboard, then the odds of drawing one after you've cast one of your (3) Karns is something like 1 out of 12 || math not accounting for the 7 drawn cards to start the game.
SUMMARY
Well, if you can't tell, I'm excited. I've carefully reviewed your proposed build Caligula, and I think it's exceptional. And, yet I think it is also elementary. All the trademark stamps of Pyro Prison are on full display. It must have felt like a very natural process - the designing. The 'Core 50', as Fluffy and Russ like to call it, underpins the deck - although Karn shifts the counts of cards a bit between the MD and SB. And, the sideboard showcases our all-star silver bullets. Nevertheless, to your credit, the removal complement main deck (3 Abrade/2 Slag) and selection of sideboard tools are impressive. I don't think I'll change very much when I sit down, and take my turn to become 'The Great Creator'.
My one [i]wish[/i]? To have been there at the beginning. I know you've been exclaiming how overjoyed you've been with developing your new deck. If only I could have been there. To follow the path of decisions and contribute ideas. Sure, playing is fun, but the best part of Magic is creating. Well, let the tinkering begin!
3-1 (as always, 'should'a been a 4-0 though, dude')
Mill - win
U/W Teferi|Jace - win
Affinity - win
B/W Eldrazi - loss (1-2)
It's been about 3 weeks of solid testing and development of Rakdos Pyro Prison, and this list is where I have landed. I'm pretty firm on each card. And, yes, that includes the Obliterator. Aaaand, no, I'm not insane. (7) discard-loot outlets, and I have (20) black land mana sources.
To be brief, I endorse the deck. I think it is on the level with mono-red prison - maybe better, especially given the castable graveyard hate. So, give it a spin. I'm tossing my saddle on Karn for the next few weeks.
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
Creatures (7)
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Master of Cruelties
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Liliana of the Veil
Removal (9)
4 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Dreadbore
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Lands (23)
7 Swamp
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Graven Cairns
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damping Matrix
1 Torpor Orb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Damping Sphere
1 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Spellskite
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Slaughter Games
What do you think about Crook of Condemnation over relic or crypt as a "pseudo-recursive-graveyard-hate-wish-target" for Karn ? Doesn't get countered by chalice on 1, doesn't let the card choice to our opponent, doesn't draw when we need to camp behind bridge...
Can it be worth it to give it a try ?
Also, what about Trinisphere in place of a 3rd or 4th Eidolon ?
Turn 1 lock pieces may become a bit more common...
However if Tron and Control go up in the meta as a result of London Mulligan those are not necessarily great match-ups for us. But that is also why we have gone up in early, fast threats such as Legion Warboss and Goblin Rabblemaster. Getting those cards down early can make us a bit favored against Tron and other slower decks.
This deck needs to evolve to the meta. If Blood Moon is really good by itself in the meta we go up on Magus of the Moon and down threats. If Blood Moon is bad by itself, like right now in the meta, we bring in more threats instead. So if Tron and Control go up with the London Mulligan we will have to evolve a bit and maybe bring more quick threats or more hate. We will just have to see.
Dragon Stompy - R 11-6-0
Ponza - RG 8-4-0
Tron - BG 1-2-0
Naya Burn - WRG 2-4-0
Spirits - UW2-2-0
Dragons - R