Current Modern Decks BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends." BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved." RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros." BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?" C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
Assuming I start to feel better, I'll be rocking it out in philly this weekend.. This will be mu 2bd individual open and we all know what happened the first tune.....will lightning strike twice.
Encyclopedic - Voluminous - Glorious.
The Words of Fluffywolf2 have been heard. Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!!!
Again, I promise to find time to properly format the notes into the Official Primer. The issue is that it will all go in as completely non-formatted. And, you - like me - can appreciate the efforts of folks who take the time to format and spell clearly. The best way to do this is to go into EDIT of your post, and copy/paste it. Then send it as a message (not always successful) or to my personal e-mail. Then I'll bring it intact into the primer. raykarkmanATgmailDOTcom
Is the Primer going to see a revolutionary renewal? Is it? Well, we did have our R/W experimental phase. Some are still swinging candy-cane swords and raising peppermint swirl shields in attempt to make that work. I have given up on R/w Pyro Prison. It's over. Not enough there in the main deck for it to work. Not now, at least. But, I still celebrate the call to arms by an ancient 5th century Chinese general of war:
"To drive your enemies before you. To hear the lamentations of their women. To strand your foe upon a highly elevated, steep-faced, windswept plain. Prevent their escape. Force them to abandon all attempts to play Magic." The Art of Magic
- ’Stack Tzu
What about R/b experimental Pyro Prison? At first blush - from 60,000 feet - initial impression? Let's do this. So, this all started with a Grand Prix LA undefeated Day 1 deck. The following is the exact list used by FluffyWolf in a competitive Modern league: 5-0 finish.
Comment #1: This is not a Pyro Prison deck. It's far closer to a Free Win Red deck. Reason: 5 Blood Moon effects main deck, lack of a creature-based kill accelerated win-cons, a very high number of planeswalkers, and no manlands.
Comment #2: It's a fine effort that achieved a lot of publicity and success. But, I don't think it's refined for a broad-based meta and significant improvements can occur in the mana-base and sideboard. The main deck got (9) total card changes and the sideboard got (8) total card changes. But, some of the cards were simply moved from one stack to the other: Goblin Rabblemaster principally.
Calling upon a background in Mono-Red Prison and B/R Blitzkrieg disruption, let's look at where I took this list:
That's (13) total card changes in the (75). Enough to brand it a new deck? Unique unto itself? Shrug. Sure, let's claim it. What I would love to have done before presenting this is score a 5-0 on modo, but I only recently settled on this decklist & I'm working straight through the weekend. And, I'm going out tonight with a bud for beers, so this will also be short for explanation. But, let's hit the important points.
MAIN DECK SPELLS
Where the hell are the rituals! Right? Lack of acceleration and 'air' has resulted in a balanced, 'fair' build. Before I go further, I have to say that Fluffy has spoken to a lot of these points already. So, I guess I'll just jump to my specific choices.
--- Rabblemaster. GDI! He is in. If there's one thing we have learned it is that we can not expect to win without creature pressure. We are not the 1-trick pony of 'free win red'.
--- Liliana and associated double-black spells at a high count. They are out. No way. The implementation of (9) swamps in the original list is totally unreconcilable. I'm down to (7) swamps and I've trimmed away half of the Liliana spells and a bedevil. There is too much reaction/removal in the original build. Take a look at the success of Jund/BG Rock. They achieve wins primarily on the impact of their creatures and manlands NOT their Lilianas and removal spells.
We get by on our Locks and attrition-based pressure. Let's not forget that creature counts are a huge part of our formula.
LAND
I'm gaining a great deal of playtesting knowledge from my Blitzkrieg days - found in the experimental pages of mtgsalvation (55 pages - no slouch). This arrangement is far more streamlined and adaptive.
SIDEBOARD
2 Crumble to Dust in a deck with 4 Blood Moons and a Magus of the Moon seems kind of ridiculous. Especially with only 4 rituals. The rest of the changes hopefully speak for themselves.
Well, I'm off work tomorrow, and it's beer o'clock. Be well kin, and hope you find some wisdom and success in this offering.
After nailing a 3-1 last week at a 20-person FNM, this week it was only 16 people. BUT, it was a 4-0 with the same list [few updates] Red Skies at Night!
Deck List is found above. No Changes. What would I change? Welllll, if I'm really pressed, it'd be the big fella. The minotaur. BUT, it's fair to note that although I'm running (2) 5-cmc spells, ya gotta take into account that there are (23) lands, (4) rituals and 7 discard outlets before I get to a point where he can jam up my hand.
What would the mountainfolk suggest as a replacement?
Nice work Ray! As far as Angrath goes, the question is how hard you found it to get double black.. if you didn't have too much trouble, I don't think you could go wrong just making him another Lilli!
Hi everyone. Ive been playing Mardu Pyromancer for the last year and have been looking for what my second deck should be. And since i love to play control but without blue cards i think this is the deck for me! Im allready playing bridges and moons. And now with this nice rakdos list it looks even more fun
Just wanted to say hello, and Im looking forward to more updates on this rakdos list
Cheers!
Hey Psychedeliq - welcome. I'm sure you'll be entertained by what we've got going on here. And, consider reading some of the older posts by the more seasoned players. I can not tell you how many of the same cards/concepts get discussed year after year. I tend to select adaptive cards with a nod to extremely meta dependent one-ofs. Who wants to win with yesterday's deck?
That's why I'm focusing on this new B/R Prison variant. It's been called 'Prison Master', 'Dark Pyro', and I'm currently on the somewhat wordy 'Red Skies at Night'. What has me the most intrigued is that the deck has seen very little development since it's big splash on the main stage. I've already written about its room for improvement.
Latest Change? @Caligula - no, not a 3rd Liliana. The double black in that deck is excrutiating. Right now, I have only 4 spells in the (75) that call for it. FOUR. 7 Swamps and 6 fetches. That's the new upgrade: a shock for a 6th fetch. Otherwise, the maindeck feels very good. My 60th card toggles between:
Hard to say. Hey, for those pursuing Mono-Red Pyro Prison, you are very smart to do so. Did you hear about Spain? Trial winners in Balboa at a Channel Fireball event garnered a 4% share of the winning decks!
Now, I really enjoy this deck, and have watched you and FluffyWolf stream it a ton. And you do very well online, but the results for the deck (not your performances per say) in tournaments has been lacking. Why do you think that is? Doesn't get played very much and so there just aren't that many to choose from? Doesn't do very well against a large field? I must admit, it doesn't seem like a Tier 1 or even 2 deck, so not sure why we keep touting its greatness. No trying to be critical, just trying to see why we keep believing in it when the results (on paper) at least don't translate in bigger tournaments.
Now, I really enjoy this deck, and have watched you and FluffyWolf stream it a ton. And you do very well online, but the results for the deck (not your performances per say) in tournaments has been lacking. Why do you think that is? Doesn't get played very much and so there just aren't that many to choose from? Doesn't do very well against a large field? I must admit, it doesn't seem like a Tier 1 or even 2 deck, so not sure why we keep touting its greatness. No trying to be critical, just trying to see why we keep believing in it when the results (on paper) at least don't translate in bigger tournaments.
Hey Erik, to answer your question about why our results are lacking. It’s entirely due to a lack of players playing the deck. Recently there’s been more than usual, and we’re actually a percentage of the field, but still not many. At GP LA 1.5% of people played our deck, about 15 individuals. We don’t know how much experience these 15 have with our deck, and since there’s so few, every loss hits our percentage hard. Compare that to Izzet Phoenix that had 10% of the field, 103 people. A single one of them doing poorly has much less impact on how the deck as a whole looks than it does for us, and it gives the 88 more chances than us to get someone into day 2/top 8.
To your question about it doing well at a huge field, at GP LA specifically, the top 8 consisted of 2 Phoenix decks, 2 Dredge decks, 2 Hardened Scales decks, and Deaths Shadow. Phoenix and Dredge in my eyes are 50/50 matchups game 1, with Dredge becoming 75/25 us game two (I run 2 grafdiggers and 4 angers side) and Phoenix becoming 60/40 us. Hardened Scales is apparently a tough matchup I’m hearing??? I’ve only played against it once and won so I can’t speak on that. Deaths shadow is a great matchup for us hands down. So if you replace a Hardened scales deck with Fluffy or Russ in that top 8 I can all but guarantee the win.
So yes we have the potential to do well at a large field, we tend to have a lot more 50/50 matchups than most decks do, but we don’t really have any unwinable matchups like some decks do, e.g. Tron can’t beat infect game 1 more often than not. And we have some matchups that are tough to lose e.g. A blindfolded toddler can beat boggles with our deck game 1
To your last two questions, I have faith in this deck because of my own results in my local meta. And why don’t you think we seem like a tier 1 or 2 deck? What’s your definition of a tier deck?
[...] the results for the deck (not your performances per say) in tournaments has been lacking [...]
As Nate said earlier, the deck is still lacking a player base. Its "bad" reputation doesn't help, and it's not a good investment for most people (expensive cards that don't see many plays). But... the meta is calling for this type of "unfair police", and we can expect a rise of the prison archetype in the next weeks. Look at the 4 Bilbao trial winners : 1 UR Phoenix, 1 Whir Prison, 1 Pyro Prison and 1 Rakdos (Cruel ?) Prison. That's on the right path !
Caligula & Nate, thanks for the replies. I'm not the most experienced or knowledgable player, certainly. I don't play nearly as much as most people on this thread, and then mostly for fun at my LGS. So I guess my evaluation of what makes a deck Tier 1 or not is solely based on top 8 or top 16 finishes that I see. I'm not doing any kind of advanced calculations to arrive at that, mostly my 'sense' of things, plus reading other articles about what folks say are the best Modern decks 'right now' (whenever that may be). And I totally get that the results are not there mostly because there are so few people playing the deck. I've made the $$ investment in this, as well as the Legacy version, and enjoy the dynamics of its lines of play a lot. I plan on sticking with it and getting better (hopefully). Thanks again.
That's a common question, erikfsynn. It is asked about any deck that doesn't appear in significant numbers on the podium of winners. Natehill and McCorbac gave succinct, data-driven answers. They're right.
The term tier is commonly referred to as successful, but in actuality it really refers to a deck that is popular. To be clear, popular - right now. If enough darts get thrown, then some will find their way to a bullseye. That's not to say there isn't a lot of skill involved in Magic, but when matchups and nut draws are in the mix, it's better to be lucky than to be good.
And, again, you've got to be good to run straight red to a gold medal. Saffron Olive recently attempted to take out a Pyro Prison version of his Free Win Red original deck out in a league. The results were disastrous. He didn't have the proper practice to understand the defined roles of going either "Sword" or "Shield" or to say it more boringly: "Aggro" or "Control".
Saffron actually said in the stream that he doesn't get the power of Goblin Rabblemaster. Caligula said: "stop playing our deck and calling it by your name then!!!" Hilarious, buddy.
Lastly, the concept of Tier is unusually distinct for us to understand. Since we are a 'sideboard deck', it's critical for us to be constructing our decks to be strong enough to beat out the Day 1 crowd ---- Popular and the Day 2 crowd ---- Effective. On the flip side, there are no players readying themselves to fight us, so the odds stack even moreso in our favor. Just a case of getting enough mountain-bangers out there onto the battlefield.
Buuuuut, if we do that, then they'll see us coming! Oh, No. It's a Joseph Heller CATCH 22!!!
Idk man, I rock a weird build but I smack Hardened Scales players around. I have 2 Abrade, 4 angers and a single Earthquake mb. SB I have tons of options like Damping Matrix, Shattering Spree, and Eidolon of the Great Revel.
Over the past couple years, we've seen many popular players and content creators feature Pyro Prison (although sometimes not acknowledging our brand), and stumble and punt through leagues while spectators comment on how bad the deck is. Comments range from "the deck takes no skill to play" to "FreeLossRed", or, as a well known pro player tweeted yesterday, the deck says "I only want to beat the Phoenix deck, but only sometimes"(I'm paraphrasing because he's a douche).
Mr. Olive's stream was no different. If you're interested in learning how to effectively pilot Pyro Prison, this will not be the video for you. Any one of us can point out dozens of obvious misplays, which many of us discussed at length yesterday (we won't go into those, because it would take until page 200). It doesn't take a Prison expert to see that he did not play well.
A well versed Prison player can tell you that from lines of play, to sideboarding strategy, to deck construction, it was fundamentally flawed. However it doesn't take obvious misplays to lose games with this deck, just little tiny ones. The perception that we win for free is not an accurate one. Sure, sometimes we play a turn 1 Moon and just win, but every deck has it's nut draws, and I'm certain nobody here has went 5-0 on MTGO or spiked a tournament by Mooning people out every game. Like Raystack said, "it's better to be lucky than good", but with this deck, you need to be both to win consistantly. That's the difference between 5-0 and 3-2.. between day 1 and day 2.
I want to give you an example of what I'm talking about. Last night I played a match against Merfolk. It was game 3, and I was at 2 life with Damping Matrix, Bridge, Koth with 5 counters, 6 Mountains, a Caverns, and a Bridge in my hand. My opponent has 2 Mutavault and a 1/1 Biomancer that just came into play. Hes played 3 Repeal and a Hurkyl's Recall so far, which are exiled. I draw a Spyglass and get a Koth emblem. What is the correct play here? There are 3 lines here that get us there most of the time. I chose to play Spyglass naming Mutavault. It gets Spell Pierced.. I have 5 mana, and I decide to pay for it to shut down the Vaults, but... he has another Pierce. At this point I could've just said ok and played Bridge, but I decided to pay the 2 and ping the 1/1. I do so and he reveals Dismember and a Lord. I'm in good shape and I should win from here.. but he draws his 4th Repeal. He bounces Spyglass and swings with the Vaults.
After the match, my opponent told me he had 1 more Recall along with the 4th Repeal. The line I took gave him 2 outs. If I would've emptied my hand, Repeal would've allowed him to bounce Matrix, swing with Biomancer and Adapt for the win. If I played nothing, he needed Repeal, Lord, Lord. So, did I get unlucky? Sure. I win that game 90% of the time with the line I took. It's easy to say I got unlucky. But the truth is, I gave the game away, and it probably wouldn't have appeared so on stream.
We as a community know what this deck is all about, and we actually love the hate. The salt is the best part! We all hope we continue to be written off as a "meme". We welcome Seth or anyone else to showcase "FreeWinPunt" anytime they want! It just makes the salt even saltier when we win. If you're just starting out on the deck, keep your lines and decisions tight and you'll be rewarded. Take the naysayers' opinions with a grain of SALT.
Now, I really enjoy this deck, and have watched you and FluffyWolf stream it a ton. And you do very well online, but the results for the deck (not your performances per say) in tournaments has been lacking. Why do you think that is? Doesn't get played very much and so there just aren't that many to choose from? Doesn't do very well against a large field? I must admit, it doesn't seem like a Tier 1 or even 2 deck, so not sure why we keep touting its greatness. No trying to be critical, just trying to see why we keep believing in it when the results (on paper) at least don't translate in bigger tournaments.
Sorry it took so long to answer. I see others have already answered, but allow me to chime in.
First, I did not play in Philly. I've been waiting all year for this event, but God had other plans. I got really sick. I mean really really sick and couldn't even get off the couch. Dr. thinks I had Viral Pneumonia that turned into the flu. Fun times.
As far as why we play this deck? it's fun. and it's good. but mostly, it's fun. when played at a high level, it can be nothing short of dominant. I am proof of that. I've tor through more paper events with this deck than I can count. I actually lost track of the number of time I made top 8 with this deck at non-FNM events. Sure, MTGO is hostile to this deck, but that's MTGO. paper magic is VERY different than online. Pople are much worse players in paper. also, there's the whole bluffing, body language, missing triggers thing in person that doesn't happen on MTGO. I streamed all week before regionals and didn't get a single 5-0. not one. I even scrubbed out of regionals at 1-2 to some bad variance, but then I entered the IQ and proceeded to not lose a game (not match, game) until the finals. It was the most dominate performance that I've ever seen anyone have, and I'm lucky to have it.
This deck, when piloted well, can tore through an event like no other. the problem is many people just want to pick up a deck and do well with it. Most people play standard, modern, draft, etc... this is NOT a deck for people like that. I've been playing this deck for years now as well as many of the people on here. And the lines are tight and can win or lose very easily by taking an incorrect line. Caligula referenced this in the post directly before this one. Had he just sat tight and held up 5 mountains, he wins. Instead he decided to fight a battle over a spyglass and lost.
Sideboard strategy is also huge we flip from control to aggro all the time and we need to know not only what to bring in and out, but also need to construct our board to be able to do so. If we need to be the control role, do we have enough stuff to bring in if we side out all the rabbles? If you're playing 8 rabble and/or eidolons maindeck, do we have a control card to bring in for each creature we're bringing out? I see this all the time where the main deck is full aggro, then get paired against humans and are forced to leave in rabbles or eidolons because we just don't have enough to take out. the the pilot loses because they draw said creatures instead of the control cards they need.
I talk about this a lot on stream. At the end of the day, this deck is VERY hard to pilot. Sure, you can take this to an FNM and the core 50 (30 mana, Chandra, Chalice, Rabble, Bridge, Moon) can propel you to a 3-1 or a 4-0. It happens all the time. But it's those other 10 cards and how you use them which can get you through an IQ or an Open/GP.
Side note, if you want to see how NOT to pilot this deck, take a look at Saffron Olive's latest stream. Seth's a good guy and I do like him, but even someone with his experience playing magic, especially with this deck that he calls his own, made MAJOR mistakes and errors in both how he thinks about the deck and the specific decisions throughout his stream. From sideboarding to game play, there were a lot wrong and it showed in his results.
So, long answer, but I like to be thorogh. this deck is HARD to play well, so people will pick up another deck that's much easier, like tron, phenoix, or dredge. People also like to look smart, so they play amulet titan. Look at me, I'm playing a super complicated deck! Please. Pick up Pyro Prison if you want a complicated deck. If not, that's fine. Just be ready for the turn one moon!
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Mono-White Eldrazi & Taxes 2-1
Humans 2-0
UW Control 2-0
Living End 2-1
pretty stoked to finally get the 4-0. Decklist below
Maindeck (60)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
3 Legion Warboss
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Walking Ballista
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Magma Jet
1 Anger of the Gods
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
3 Gemstone Caverns
14 Mountain
3 Ramunap Ruins
1 Mutavault
Sideboard (15)
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Lava Coil
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Dragon's Claw
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Witchbane Orb
BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends."
BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved."
RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros."
BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?"
C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
Modern:
The Words of Fluffywolf2 have been heard. Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!!!
Again, I promise to find time to properly format the notes into the Official Primer. The issue is that it will all go in as completely non-formatted. And, you - like me - can appreciate the efforts of folks who take the time to format and spell clearly. The best way to do this is to go into EDIT of your post, and copy/paste it. Then send it as a message (not always successful) or to my personal e-mail. Then I'll bring it intact into the primer. raykarkmanATgmailDOTcom
Is the Primer going to see a revolutionary renewal? Is it? Well, we did have our R/W experimental phase. Some are still swinging candy-cane swords and raising peppermint swirl shields in attempt to make that work. I have given up on R/w Pyro Prison. It's over. Not enough there in the main deck for it to work. Not now, at least. But, I still celebrate the call to arms by an ancient 5th century Chinese general of war:
"To drive your enemies before you. To hear the lamentations of their women. To strand your foe upon a highly elevated, steep-faced, windswept plain. Prevent their escape. Force them to abandon all attempts to play Magic."
The Art of Magic
- ’Stack Tzu
What about R/b experimental Pyro Prison? At first blush - from 60,000 feet - initial impression? Let's do this. So, this all started with a Grand Prix LA undefeated Day 1 deck. The following is the exact list used by FluffyWolf in a competitive Modern league: 5-0 finish.
https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/VlKpaM_pH
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Master of Cruelties
4 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Abrade
3 Bedevil
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
3 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Graven Cairns
3 Mountain
9 Swamp
1 Temple of Malice
60 Cards
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Crumble to Dust
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
2 Stormbreath Dragon
Comment #1: This is not a Pyro Prison deck. It's far closer to a Free Win Red deck. Reason: 5 Blood Moon effects main deck, lack of a creature-based kill accelerated win-cons, a very high number of planeswalkers, and no manlands.
Comment #2: It's a fine effort that achieved a lot of publicity and success. But, I don't think it's refined for a broad-based meta and significant improvements can occur in the mana-base and sideboard. The main deck got (9) total card changes and the sideboard got (8) total card changes. But, some of the cards were simply moved from one stack to the other: Goblin Rabblemaster principally.
Calling upon a background in Mono-Red Prison and B/R Blitzkrieg disruption, let's look at where I took this list:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
Creatures (5)
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Master of Cruelties
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (6)
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Angrath, the Flame-Cursed
Removal (10)
4 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Bedevil
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Lands (23)
7 Swamp
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Graven Cairns
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damping Matrix
2 Torpor Orb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
That's (13) total card changes in the (75). Enough to brand it a new deck? Unique unto itself? Shrug. Sure, let's claim it. What I would love to have done before presenting this is score a 5-0 on modo, but I only recently settled on this decklist & I'm working straight through the weekend. And, I'm going out tonight with a bud for beers, so this will also be short for explanation. But, let's hit the important points.
MAIN DECK SPELLS
Where the hell are the rituals! Right? Lack of acceleration and 'air' has resulted in a balanced, 'fair' build. Before I go further, I have to say that Fluffy has spoken to a lot of these points already. So, I guess I'll just jump to my specific choices.
--- Rabblemaster. GDI! He is in. If there's one thing we have learned it is that we can not expect to win without creature pressure. We are not the 1-trick pony of 'free win red'.
--- Liliana and associated double-black spells at a high count. They are out. No way. The implementation of (9) swamps in the original list is totally unreconcilable. I'm down to (7) swamps and I've trimmed away half of the Liliana spells and a bedevil. There is too much reaction/removal in the original build. Take a look at the success of Jund/BG Rock. They achieve wins primarily on the impact of their creatures and manlands NOT their Lilianas and removal spells.
We get by on our Locks and attrition-based pressure. Let's not forget that creature counts are a huge part of our formula.
LAND
I'm gaining a great deal of playtesting knowledge from my Blitzkrieg days - found in the experimental pages of mtgsalvation (55 pages - no slouch). This arrangement is far more streamlined and adaptive.
SIDEBOARD
2 Crumble to Dust in a deck with 4 Blood Moons and a Magus of the Moon seems kind of ridiculous. Especially with only 4 rituals. The rest of the changes hopefully speak for themselves.
Well, I'm off work tomorrow, and it's beer o'clock. Be well kin, and hope you find some wisdom and success in this offering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cit17Si-Vts
I posted my list to my Twitter. It's a picture, so I cant upload it here.
Changes would be ravenous trap over surgical in the board. Otherwise the list is good
Round 1 -- U/R Thing-Phoenix -- 2-0 WIN
Round 2 -- U/R Thing-Phoenix -- 2-0 WIN
Round 3 -- U/W/g Wilderness Control -- 2-1 WIN
Round 4 -- 4 Color Good Stuff -- 2-0 WIN
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
Creatures (5)
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Master of Cruelties
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (6)
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Angrath, the Flame-Chained
Removal (10)
4 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Bedevil
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Lands (23)
7 Swamp
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Graven Cairns
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damping Matrix
2 Torpor Orb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
Deck List is found above. No Changes. What would I change? Welllll, if I'm really pressed, it'd be the big fella. The minotaur. BUT, it's fair to note that although I'm running (2) 5-cmc spells, ya gotta take into account that there are (23) lands, (4) rituals and 7 discard outlets before I get to a point where he can jam up my hand.
What would the mountainfolk suggest as a replacement?
Just wanted to say hello, and Im looking forward to more updates on this rakdos list
Cheers!
That's why I'm focusing on this new B/R Prison variant. It's been called 'Prison Master', 'Dark Pyro', and I'm currently on the somewhat wordy 'Red Skies at Night'. What has me the most intrigued is that the deck has seen very little development since it's big splash on the main stage. I've already written about its room for improvement.
Latest Change? @Caligula - no, not a 3rd Liliana. The double black in that deck is excrutiating. Right now, I have only 4 spells in the (75) that call for it. FOUR. 7 Swamps and 6 fetches. That's the new upgrade: a shock for a 6th fetch. Otherwise, the maindeck feels very good. My 60th card toggles between:
- Desperate Ritual
- Angrath
- Cut // Ribbons
- Pack Rat.
Hard to say. Hey, for those pursuing Mono-Red Pyro Prison, you are very smart to do so. Did you hear about Spain? Trial winners in Balboa at a Channel Fireball event garnered a 4% share of the winning decks!
https://www.channelfireball.com/grand-prix-bilbao-trial-winners/
My most up to date Pyro Prison deck can always be found on Page 1 of this thread in the deck section of the Official Primer.
Now, I really enjoy this deck, and have watched you and FluffyWolf stream it a ton. And you do very well online, but the results for the deck (not your performances per say) in tournaments has been lacking. Why do you think that is? Doesn't get played very much and so there just aren't that many to choose from? Doesn't do very well against a large field? I must admit, it doesn't seem like a Tier 1 or even 2 deck, so not sure why we keep touting its greatness. No trying to be critical, just trying to see why we keep believing in it when the results (on paper) at least don't translate in bigger tournaments.
Hey Erik, to answer your question about why our results are lacking. It’s entirely due to a lack of players playing the deck. Recently there’s been more than usual, and we’re actually a percentage of the field, but still not many. At GP LA 1.5% of people played our deck, about 15 individuals. We don’t know how much experience these 15 have with our deck, and since there’s so few, every loss hits our percentage hard. Compare that to Izzet Phoenix that had 10% of the field, 103 people. A single one of them doing poorly has much less impact on how the deck as a whole looks than it does for us, and it gives the 88 more chances than us to get someone into day 2/top 8.
To your question about it doing well at a huge field, at GP LA specifically, the top 8 consisted of 2 Phoenix decks, 2 Dredge decks, 2 Hardened Scales decks, and Deaths Shadow. Phoenix and Dredge in my eyes are 50/50 matchups game 1, with Dredge becoming 75/25 us game two (I run 2 grafdiggers and 4 angers side) and Phoenix becoming 60/40 us. Hardened Scales is apparently a tough matchup I’m hearing??? I’ve only played against it once and won so I can’t speak on that. Deaths shadow is a great matchup for us hands down. So if you replace a Hardened scales deck with Fluffy or Russ in that top 8 I can all but guarantee the win.
So yes we have the potential to do well at a large field, we tend to have a lot more 50/50 matchups than most decks do, but we don’t really have any unwinable matchups like some decks do, e.g. Tron can’t beat infect game 1 more often than not. And we have some matchups that are tough to lose e.g. A blindfolded toddler can beat boggles with our deck game 1
To your last two questions, I have faith in this deck because of my own results in my local meta. And why don’t you think we seem like a tier 1 or 2 deck? What’s your definition of a tier deck?
As Nate said earlier, the deck is still lacking a player base. Its "bad" reputation doesn't help, and it's not a good investment for most people (expensive cards that don't see many plays). But... the meta is calling for this type of "unfair police", and we can expect a rise of the prison archetype in the next weeks. Look at the 4 Bilbao trial winners : 1 UR Phoenix, 1 Whir Prison, 1 Pyro Prison and 1 Rakdos (Cruel ?) Prison. That's on the right path !
Take another look at the most performant/played decks :
UR Phoenix (114 top8 in the last 2 months)-> Favored.
Burn (72)-> Slightly favored.
Hardened Scales (50)-> Almost unwinable.
Death's Shadow (46)-> Favored.
The Rock (38)-> Hard (no pun intended).
Humans (36)-> Highly favored.
Spirits (34)-> Highly favored.
Eldrazi (20)-> Higly Favored.
Jund (20)-> Hard.
Tron (59)-> Highly favored.
UW (46)-> Hard.
Whir Prison (24)-> Highly favored.
Dredge (63)-> Even.
Valakut (24)-> Even.
Amulet (20)-> Highly favored.
Total : 666 decks (not intended)
"Unwinable" : 50
"Hard" : 104
"Even" : 87
That leaves us with 425 favorable match-ups. Good enough for me.
The term tier is commonly referred to as successful, but in actuality it really refers to a deck that is popular. To be clear, popular - right now. If enough darts get thrown, then some will find their way to a bullseye. That's not to say there isn't a lot of skill involved in Magic, but when matchups and nut draws are in the mix, it's better to be lucky than to be good.
And, again, you've got to be good to run straight red to a gold medal. Saffron Olive recently attempted to take out a Pyro Prison version of his Free Win Red original deck out in a league. The results were disastrous. He didn't have the proper practice to understand the defined roles of going either "Sword" or "Shield" or to say it more boringly: "Aggro" or "Control".
Saffron actually said in the stream that he doesn't get the power of Goblin Rabblemaster.
Lastly, the concept of Tier is unusually distinct for us to understand. Since we are a 'sideboard deck', it's critical for us to be constructing our decks to be strong enough to beat out the Day 1 crowd ---- Popular and the Day 2 crowd ---- Effective. On the flip side, there are no players readying themselves to fight us, so the odds stack even moreso in our favor. Just a case of getting enough mountain-bangers out there onto the battlefield.
Buuuuut, if we do that, then they'll see us coming! Oh, No. It's a Joseph Heller CATCH 22!!!
** 1.5 MILLION VIEWS **
https://www.twitch.tv/mtggoldfish
RG BBE Ponza
UX Eldrazi Tron
UR Jace Breach
Mr. Olive's stream was no different. If you're interested in learning how to effectively pilot Pyro Prison, this will not be the video for you. Any one of us can point out dozens of obvious misplays, which many of us discussed at length yesterday (we won't go into those, because it would take until page 200). It doesn't take a Prison expert to see that he did not play well.
A well versed Prison player can tell you that from lines of play, to sideboarding strategy, to deck construction, it was fundamentally flawed. However it doesn't take obvious misplays to lose games with this deck, just little tiny ones. The perception that we win for free is not an accurate one. Sure, sometimes we play a turn 1 Moon and just win, but every deck has it's nut draws, and I'm certain nobody here has went 5-0 on MTGO or spiked a tournament by Mooning people out every game. Like Raystack said, "it's better to be lucky than good", but with this deck, you need to be both to win consistantly. That's the difference between 5-0 and 3-2.. between day 1 and day 2.
I want to give you an example of what I'm talking about. Last night I played a match against Merfolk. It was game 3, and I was at 2 life with Damping Matrix, Bridge, Koth with 5 counters, 6 Mountains, a Caverns, and a Bridge in my hand. My opponent has 2 Mutavault and a 1/1 Biomancer that just came into play. Hes played 3 Repeal and a Hurkyl's Recall so far, which are exiled. I draw a Spyglass and get a Koth emblem. What is the correct play here? There are 3 lines here that get us there most of the time. I chose to play Spyglass naming Mutavault. It gets Spell Pierced.. I have 5 mana, and I decide to pay for it to shut down the Vaults, but... he has another Pierce. At this point I could've just said ok and played Bridge, but I decided to pay the 2 and ping the 1/1. I do so and he reveals Dismember and a Lord. I'm in good shape and I should win from here.. but he draws his 4th Repeal. He bounces Spyglass and swings with the Vaults.
After the match, my opponent told me he had 1 more Recall along with the 4th Repeal. The line I took gave him 2 outs. If I would've emptied my hand, Repeal would've allowed him to bounce Matrix, swing with Biomancer and Adapt for the win. If I played nothing, he needed Repeal, Lord, Lord. So, did I get unlucky? Sure. I win that game 90% of the time with the line I took. It's easy to say I got unlucky. But the truth is, I gave the game away, and it probably wouldn't have appeared so on stream.
We as a community know what this deck is all about, and we actually love the hate. The salt is the best part! We all hope we continue to be written off as a "meme". We welcome Seth or anyone else to showcase "FreeWinPunt" anytime they want! It just makes the salt even saltier when we win. If you're just starting out on the deck, keep your lines and decisions tight and you'll be rewarded. Take the naysayers' opinions with a grain of SALT.
Stay lucky AND good out there, Mountainfolk!
Sorry it took so long to answer. I see others have already answered, but allow me to chime in.
First, I did not play in Philly. I've been waiting all year for this event, but God had other plans. I got really sick. I mean really really sick and couldn't even get off the couch. Dr. thinks I had Viral Pneumonia that turned into the flu. Fun times.
As far as why we play this deck? it's fun. and it's good. but mostly, it's fun. when played at a high level, it can be nothing short of dominant. I am proof of that. I've tor through more paper events with this deck than I can count. I actually lost track of the number of time I made top 8 with this deck at non-FNM events. Sure, MTGO is hostile to this deck, but that's MTGO. paper magic is VERY different than online. Pople are much worse players in paper. also, there's the whole bluffing, body language, missing triggers thing in person that doesn't happen on MTGO. I streamed all week before regionals and didn't get a single 5-0. not one. I even scrubbed out of regionals at 1-2 to some bad variance, but then I entered the IQ and proceeded to not lose a game (not match, game) until the finals. It was the most dominate performance that I've ever seen anyone have, and I'm lucky to have it.
This deck, when piloted well, can tore through an event like no other. the problem is many people just want to pick up a deck and do well with it. Most people play standard, modern, draft, etc... this is NOT a deck for people like that. I've been playing this deck for years now as well as many of the people on here. And the lines are tight and can win or lose very easily by taking an incorrect line. Caligula referenced this in the post directly before this one. Had he just sat tight and held up 5 mountains, he wins. Instead he decided to fight a battle over a spyglass and lost.
Sideboard strategy is also huge we flip from control to aggro all the time and we need to know not only what to bring in and out, but also need to construct our board to be able to do so. If we need to be the control role, do we have enough stuff to bring in if we side out all the rabbles? If you're playing 8 rabble and/or eidolons maindeck, do we have a control card to bring in for each creature we're bringing out? I see this all the time where the main deck is full aggro, then get paired against humans and are forced to leave in rabbles or eidolons because we just don't have enough to take out. the the pilot loses because they draw said creatures instead of the control cards they need.
I talk about this a lot on stream. At the end of the day, this deck is VERY hard to pilot. Sure, you can take this to an FNM and the core 50 (30 mana, Chandra, Chalice, Rabble, Bridge, Moon) can propel you to a 3-1 or a 4-0. It happens all the time. But it's those other 10 cards and how you use them which can get you through an IQ or an Open/GP.
Side note, if you want to see how NOT to pilot this deck, take a look at Saffron Olive's latest stream. Seth's a good guy and I do like him, but even someone with his experience playing magic, especially with this deck that he calls his own, made MAJOR mistakes and errors in both how he thinks about the deck and the specific decisions throughout his stream. From sideboarding to game play, there were a lot wrong and it showed in his results.
So, long answer, but I like to be thorogh. this deck is HARD to play well, so people will pick up another deck that's much easier, like tron, phenoix, or dredge. People also like to look smart, so they play amulet titan. Look at me, I'm playing a super complicated deck! Please. Pick up Pyro Prison if you want a complicated deck. If not, that's fine. Just be ready for the turn one moon!