Anyone else think that Trinisphere is really good right now? I know the deck is filled to the brim with 3-drops, but this could be yet another lock piece that could shut the opponent out while we do our thing. I think the ritual count would need to be increased so that turn 1/2 3-drops are more likely. Something like this perhaps:
Anyone else think that Trinisphere is really good right now? I know the deck is filled to the brim with 3-drops, but this could be yet another lock piece that could shut the opponent out while we do our thing. I think the ritual count would need to be increased so that turn 1/2 3-drops are more likely. Something like this perhaps:
I’m sure others will chime in, but I’ve played it and played against it and it is a deceptively bad. It seems like a good lock, but it does more harm to you than good. Our rituals equate to dead cards with it out and a lot of decks play value over synergy. You would be better served using pain over more locks via EotGR and Harsh Mentor to bait field hate or close out a game quicker.
Good Evening Pyro Prison Players!
I know I have been out and about for awhile now in the month of February. I've been taking care of some personal things, but intently watching the meta when able and practicing when I can. I see we have many new faces, and although I cannot get quite back as far as I need to in order to catch up I tossed myself back 3 pages and thought I'd quote you guys and say hello and give some comments as I see them (which many have been answered by the likes of Raystack, Caligula, Zayl, Nate, and others!).
Hey guys, fairly new to the prison strategy and love reading through this stuff to learn. Hopefully after some more experience I can give some input/ideas.
Welcome! Fresh eyes are always welcome. As some of the semi-veteran players are settling in we can lose sight of what may be another angle to tackle! By all means take all our suggestions to heart but bring your own also, especially if you have some of that sweet sweet data of results to back it up!
Congrats! I believe you were also taking this to a Badlands reward type of event this past (or previously past) Sunday! Hope that went well, and great run to start things out!
It is called sun and moon becasue the sun emblem on the white pips + blood moon, our RW list has very little resemlance to it though so we are far enough away to be considered a separate deck.
Like Ray said Grafdiggers cage is a necessary evil, Though often times decks that want a grafdiggers you want chalice on 2 more than three weird how that works out.
Koth of the Hammer is a very powerful card yes. and playing +ulting him early is insane. but right now bolt is very highly played so getting him to stay out is the problem especially since we cant protect him with giving ourself hexproof anymore. plus you have to run atleat 14 mountains to make him practical as well.
I'd like to back both Ray and Zayl here. The funny thing that is mentioned is sometimes you 'skip' Chalice on 1, this is understanding your meta opponent and what is likely to disrupt you from winning. Many points in modern you'll find that yes we are non-bo'ing as people call it, but if you don't have the effect in play by T4 anyway you're falling behind. Many will note our deck is 'inconsistent' and while this may have some truth to it we tackle the meta like a control deck does. A control deck wishes for the game to exceed past 8+ turns in order to aseemble pieces. We do similar things at times where we try to limit our opponents resources to give us the attempt to 'draw 8 (8 turns)'. Albeit we are giving out opponent that opportunity to draw out. Many will say that is not a way to play magic, but I'd fire back that my deck has a larger probablity to draw out my win condition as I retain X win conditions within the size of Y deck, where you have Z outs to get around my locks or limiting spells out of your deck.
Sorry, new to the deck, why is Eidonlon good against burn?
Am afraid that your own eidolon may end up locking up yourself?
Would some kind of sweepers better in its place?
I’m glad you asked AvalancheRiders! You’re right in questioning the Eidolons against burn. The reason it works is that they won’t lose us the game unless we play an ensnaring bridge, but in a situation where you have an eidolon out against burn you wouldn’t play the bridge anyway! Eidolon gives us more pressure against burn since every single spell in their deck will become a shock to their face, and also allows us to have a blocker when It gets close. At the very worst it gets hit with a lightning bolt or they have to block it with a goblin guide or an eidolon of their own, which essentially turns it into a 3 for 1, as it shocks them, and reduces the amount our face would’ve taken. At the very best against burn, it can win us the game, either by providing a win con or by giving us time to find a chalice or moon to lock them out further.
This is a great response, well done Nate. I want to add my own words which may just simply echo this. My best example was actually an upset opponent. My opponent (on MTGO) slammed their messages in chat of the typical lucky, bad deck, etc. What was the most satisfying thing to read though was the comment "And you kept Eidolon in versus burn, what an idiot." What was satisfying about this is that we understood the matchup more then our opponent. What do I mean by this? Firstly, the deck I was running had x4 Eidolon sideboard, and x4 Bridge mainboard. G2 and G3 (I forget if it went to G3), involved the typical swaps of Anger of the Gods/Eidolons in and things like Ensnaring Bridge and probably some other shenanigans. What is not understood though is we are not hiding behind a bridge, which my opponent has to assume - Most will assume you are "Free Win Red" made popular by Saffron Olive of MTGGoldfish. This is where most get their data, and nothing wrong with that. Just something to note, when deciding if you are the "Aggo" or the "Control" matchup, it is important to know to give you the best edge. In the case of Eidolon, we are applying pressure. You won't get behind a bridge fast enough so you must rely on removal packages and aggression. Goodluck in your burn matchups! They can be quite 50/50 G1 not knowing what your opponent is on.
This is what I've been thinking open to suggestions. Not 100% on the sideboard yet. I like the main. Only switch to that might be switching the Chandra in the board for the Koth in the main. I had thought about the "Light up the Stage" build that Fluffy had a few weeks back but I feel that I could play the traditional style pyro prison a bit better.
Let me know what you guys think.
I know I am late for this response but wanted to say I hope it went well, and always consider playing something you are familiar with and understand the ins-and-outs! This rewards players much more then making last minute changes. Only when firmly comfortable with the deck would I recommend last minute changes. For the record, I cannot decide if I like Light up the Stage, and still cannot. I feel it may be the bait card like Sarkhan was a few sets back.
Been messing around with the deck again; out of curiosity, what are our worst matchups?
Great question, and I believe this is opinionated a touch between the community, it will also rely on your build and how you are approaching the meta. I'll break it down to three versions you could run, and then give from the "Classic" list what the matchups that are bad are.
Aggro List: Includes 6+ Rabblemasters and sometimes Eidolons in the Main. May consider Pia & Kiran or Hazoret and may go the extra mile with an additional one or a Koth. This list tends to lack a bit of removal for more power, and will be suited for Control, Burn, and Jund metas, though Jund may still give the creature dense list a run for its money.
Control List: This list will favor a heavy reliance on the planeswalker kill. It will possibly run the x4 Rabble but that would be it for creatures. It may choose to try and play something sneakier like Trinisphere or more sweepers. This list will do well in Creature/Midrange type of metas.
Classic List: Balances Moons/Locks/Creatures/Walkers. This is what we call the 50/50 and sometimes suffers from the "Drawing the wrong side of the deck" however with an appropriate sideboard G2/G3 should be well tuned and G1 should challenge Greedy Manabases. It will suffer to Combo drastically at times. This one is well suited for a GP or Large event, due to a more 'balanced' approach and the 'unknown' meta.
What are the bad matchups?
Jund - This deck has the most removals for Bridge/Moon/Chalice, and can typically function on 1 Forest/1 Swamp. If they sniff you are Blood Moon based in G1 it is an uphill battle.
UW Control - This deck runs the gambit of basics, and can get ahead of us if we are not careful. Please note that UWx control decks are not unfavored, but the straight UW one is.
Hardened Scales & KCI... Just kidding =) - But I'll note a combo deck ignoring you and not heavily reliant on the mana base will be difficult. Hardened Scales can fit into this category due to the range of attack points.
Dredge - This deck just wins, and our graveyard in the Mono Red version is weak.
Eldrazi Tron - Ratchet Bomb, T1 TKS (yes I've seen this), A Waste. Ugh this deck... I'd almost rather see just Tron then Eldrazi Tron
Devoted Druid Combo (Only for Fluffy) - I'm up to losing to this about 15 times on T3. I dunno, its my luck. This shouldn't be a hard matchup...
Tron & Burn (Ad Naus) - I'll note Tron as a 50/50 matchup - If you are on the right side of the tracks you will have x2 Games to win it, fall in the first game and it is an uphill battle. I would not call this unfavorable and actually may come down to the dice roll for who is first, it is the Honorable Mention of difficulty
What are the good matchups?
Wow that's a lot of bad matchups? So what is good and why?
Grixis Death Shadow - Chalice on 1, Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge. We are literally built for this. The more seasoned opponent will make it difficult appropriately countering what we have with Stubborn Denial, and the more seasonsed Pyro Prison player will know when to wait or when to go with it (when you can't wait anymore or the risk of losing something to thoughtseize is too much).
Humans & Spirits - Probably more Humans on this but both fold hard to Blood Moon and Bridge. Chalice is a littel bit of an awkward card but you should be clear for take off against these.
Affinity (Normal) - If you run into the little robots and they're not flinging things with Hardened scales your Bridge and Chalice should be enough, we also tend to have enough artifact removal.
4C Prison - I actually believe this matchup is an oddball easy one unless your opponent is seasoned. Typically a Moon stops them from casting Whir, and if they haven't drowned you in lock pieces by the time your Moon is down our more proactive plan should get the job done. I call this one favored, but a lot will disagree.
Pheonix - This deck is an oddball. It is "Us as a counter" and what I mean by that is they pivot also. I've won because of Bridge, and then lost cause they turned into Pyromancer Ascension, but then my opponent has not and staid with Thing in the Ice and we win. This one is a battle that turns into some heavy hitting mind games. I'll list it as favored though as Chalice on 1 and Bridge work wonders here, and Bridge in game 1 can sometimes just be it all.
Amulet Titan - Gobble Gobble, next game.
Other decks not listed? Either more 50/50 based, or just something I haven't thought of.
How's the control matchup? Seems like you just want to be on the aggro Rabble plan. Chalice on 1 should be good, but the other lock pieces (Moon/Bridge) not so good depending on the mana base of the control deck.
Anyone else think that Trinisphere is really good right now? I know the deck is filled to the brim with 3-drops, but this could be yet another lock piece that could shut the opponent out while we do our thing. I think the ritual count would need to be increased so that turn 1/2 3-drops are more likely. Something like this perhaps:
I'm sorry to report that Modern is not like Legacy. I'll try 3-ball (Trinisphere) from time to time, but I'll shelve that one. It may be decent against Pheonix and that would be about it. If your FNM meta is Pheonix all night, slam it in the main, if it is not leave little 3-ball at home.
Resident prison experts Fluffywolf2 and Stickballruss have been testing it, and it's spicy indeed! Bedevil has been raved about in particular.
As a final note (I'll have a follow up at some point), but I think the deck list is decent and solves a problem or two that we have while hurting other matchups. My prime example is the lack of Eidolon of the Great Revel - missing from Storm based or "Multi-spell" decks. The pro of the deck, man Dredge just dies when you slam Leyline, and the combo of Chandra and Liliana is bone chilling and maybe more powerful in some cases then Jace and Teferi.
I'll have more in a future post, it is dinner, but look for the 5-0 lists from Competitive League tomorrow (Tuesday posting).
So I played at GP LA last weekend. 3 events(2 PTQs and GP) with 3 different version of the deck(my version, showtime version, and stickballruss version)
I played my version(2 dismember+2 abrade) with 8 rabble on Friday PTQ.
4-2 record
losses to human and abzan midrange
I played showtime version on GP
3-3 drop
losses to human, jund, mono red phoenix
Played stickballruss version with 4 rabble+2 walking ballista+more interaction on Sunday PTQ
Went 4-1-1. Drew last round for prize split.
Loss to u/r phoenix
Overall the deck felt good. Stick's version felt the best since it feels like playing a control/prison hybrid deck that can finish people off with a fast rabble draw and have more interaction. MVP by far this weekend was hazoret. It won so many games by itself(won't go below 2 copies MD).
Overall match record:
2-0 against Death shadow
1-2 against GB/X goyf deck
1-0 against GB midrange homebrew(no goyf, sakura tribe elder, not deathcloud)
2-1 against u/r pheonix
1-1 against mono red pheonix
1-0 against tron
1-0 against ad naus
0-2 against human
1-0 against harden scale
1-0 against amulet titan
Michael Margelisch posted a top 8 finish at the MCQ in Strasbourg over the weekend. Very promising. I’m like 80% to play something very similar to his build at GP LA. I see that he trimmed a ritual and I may follow the same lead, but contiuning to trim 2 moons in anticipation of seeing loads of Mountains. I’m gonna stick to my guns and leave the Molten Rains in the side because they’ve gotten me out of so many jams. 3 of top 8 at MCQ Strasbourg being Rock is kind of disconcerting and I still hate our chances against blue control decks, but I love that it’s consistently putting up numbers.
If you are cutting moons, why play the deck in the first place?
I cutted moon, chalice, and bridge, All playsets in side now and bolt, relic, abrade playset main. They don't should bring artefact hate and I will beat them agro game 1 and switch after into prison. It is a style versus decks like mono black in my store where bridge is not often so good. You need to adapt into your meta. 95% don't play in a gp, so it is all possible
Cutting Moons down to 2 was a local meta thing because I was facing more than half red decks every week. Going back up to 3 felt right for a bigger event, but red is just so prominent right now that I felt comfortable leaving the 4th one out.
I also went to GPLA this past weekend. Posted a 3-2-1 on Friday MCQ and went 9-6 in the main event. Went with a Boros list. -1 Moon, -1 Ritual, -1 Warboss, +4 Eidolon, +1 Jaya main, along with 2 Lava Coil and 1 Abrade for interaction. 2 RiP, 2 Stony, 1 Ravenous Trap, 3 Molten Rains, 1 Declaration in Stone, 1 Abrade, 2 Anger, 1 Spellskite, 1 Torpor, 1 Spyglass was my SB.
Rd. 1 - Bye
Rd. 2 - Mono-Red Phoenix, won - guy got a game loss and had to replace his sleeves; Chalice on 1 got there
Rd. 3 - BG Rock, won - game 1 and 3 Moon got there. Sided in Molten Rains, Dec in Stone, Skite, and a RiP. Close game. RiP helped turn off Goyf and minimized Kalitas’ impact. Took out bridges, not sure if correct, but with the Eidolons, I just wanted to keep the pressure up and keep him off a color.
Rd. 4 - Hardened Scales, lost - mulled to oblivion game 1, stomped game two. Needed Bridge to have a chance.
Rd. 5 - Storm, won - double Eidolons games 1 and 3 made it impossible for opponent. Sided in RiPs and Trap, removal and Skite, sided out Bridges and Moons.
Rd. 6 - Mono Green Stompy, lost - this one stung. Game one got aggroed out on a mull to 5 without a Bridge, he had no idea what I was playing since all I did was play a single Mountain. Sided in removal, sided out Moons and some Goblins. Won with a Bridge and Chandra emblem. Game 3, got a Chalice on one, got a Bridge out, but couldn’t dump my hand fast enough while he was smacking me with small guys. Then the worst punt of the weekend happened when he went to combat to swing all out and I forgot my Chalice trigger when he casted Aspect of the Hydra on an unblocked attacker. Felt reeeaaalllly bad. Very favored matchup.
Rd. 7 - Living End, won - game 1 hid behind Bridge and Chandra got there. Sided in RiPs, trap, Torpor, Skite, sided out Abrade, Eidolons, and a number of Chalices. Early Moon and Rabble got there.
Rd. 8 - Whir Prison, won - early Moon and pressure got there. Opponent showed a grip of 3 whirs in his hand that were uncastable. He bemoaned the match up, which is great because this was my win and in. Sided in Stonys, Skite (nonbo alert), 1 RiP, Abrade, spyglass, and Molten Rains, sided out Bridges, coils, and a couple Chalices. Sat behind a Moon and a Jaya and flung cardboard.
Rd. 9 - Izzet Phoenix, won - Chalice on one plus bridge got me there game 1 with Chandra, game three Jaya killed a flipped Thing in the Ice and a Ral and flung cardboard behind a Chalice on 1. Had removal for follow up creatures. Sided in Trap, Angers, Skite, Dec. in Stone, sided out Abrade, a Goblin and Moons.
Ended day one 7-2.
Rd. 10 - Eldrazi Tron, won - game one early moon shut down him casting things but I couldn’t find pressure. He drew into an Oblivion Sower, but I hid behind a Bridge and ticked up a Chandra, praying he didn’t have Karn or Ulamog, and thankfully getting there. Sided in Molten Rains, Skite, spyglass, Torpor, Dec in Stone, and Abrade, sided out Chalices, Eidolons. Hindsight, should’ve brought in a Stony or two, forgot about Ballista and Ratchet. Whoops. Game two he ran me over with double Mimic into TKS into Smasher. Game 3 got an early Bridge down and Chandra got there after we traded resources to keep the board clear.
Rd. 11 - Izzet Phoenix, won - double Eidolons in games 1 and 2 got there.
And here’s where the wheels fell off the wagon.
Rd. 12 - Mono Red Phoenix, lost - opponent did what they do, early pressure that I couldn’t recover from. Chalice on one wasn’t good enough, as Skewers still hurt. Sided in Dec in Stone, Abrade, Skite, Angers, sided out Moons and a couple Goblins. Game 2 I got a turn two Chalice on 1, but his first turn Swiftspear did like 10 damage by itself. Bridges and Chalices were swept away by a Shatterstorm, followed by an Experimental Frenzy. I couldn’t present enough damage and got burned out.
Rd. 13 - Dredge, loss - game one I mulled to 5 and didn’t play more than a single Mountain. Sided in Dec in Stone, RiPs, Trap, Skite, Angers, and Torpor, sided out Eidolons and Goblins and Abrade. Game 2 he scooped to a turn three RiP. Game 3 was slow on both sides, with neither of us finding pressure, but eventually he got the ball rolling, I had mana problems and couldn’t pitch my hand fast enough to get under Bridge and lost.
Rd. 14 - Dredge, loss - opponent wins on a god hand mull to 4, faithless into dredgers in the yard turn 1, triggers and chills turn two dredge, and just snowballs. Game two, same problem as previous game where I couldn’t get under Bridge due to lack of mana and no graveyard hate.
Rd. 15 - Grixis Death Shadow, loss - not as bad as my punt day 1, but this was the second feels bad of the weekend. Game one Chalice on 1 plus Rabble gets there. Side in Skite, Dec in Stone, RiPs, side out Goblins and Abrade. Game two I turn two Molten Rain his Blood Crypt off a SSG and Gemstone, and turn three Hazoret with an empty grip, feeling good that it can’t get Stubborn Denialed...but he has his 2-of Dismember and crushes my dreams. Game 3 mull to 5 and don’t remember much except dying to 2 large shadows. At one point I think he KCommanded my Chalice, brought back a milled Snapcaster and I knew I was toasted.
Overall, fun weekend, deck is powerful and still love it, but ending on 4 losses in a row was a bummer. Felt bad to lose to two favored matchups but good to beat Rock and Eldrazi Tron. Managed to dodge some horrendous matchups.
The numbers are from across 2 GPs, and we did terribly at GP Oakland, probably with only a few people running the deck, so each loss is more of a percentage compared to the million Phoenix decks over the 2 events. Over the past 2 years my winrate has stayed around 65% total, but we've seen quite a few shifts in the meta over that time, some periods we got absolutely crushed, like right after the unbannings. Some periods we couldn't lose. Right now is somewhere in the middle. We have a good number of good matchups as well as bad ones.. so it's hard to put a number on it, but it's not 41%.
If you look at Joymonger's post above, you'll see that with a couple less mistakes and a little better luck (we don't lose to GDS), the deck could've taken him all the way. Its Modern. Play what you like and play it well, you can win. Dont believe me? Did you notice Bogles had a 61% winrate in LA? Do we think that's reflective of their true winrate right now?
New to the deck but I've been watching a lot of Fluffy play different variants to get an idea of lines to play, Moving forward, I plan on picking up some cards to open up more options, just looking for opinions on the list I have. Thanks for any input.
3x Gemstone Caverns
1x Mutavault
4x Ramunap Ruins
14x Mountain
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
4x Legion Warboss
2x Hazoret the Fervent
4x Simian Spirit Guides
2x Abrade
4x Desperate Ritual
1x Pyretic Ritual
4x Blood Moon
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Koth of the Hammer
4x Ensnaring Bridge
SB
2x Abrade
4x Anger of the Gods
1x Boil
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
4x Ravenous Trap
The numbers are from across 2 GPs, and we did terribly at GP Oakland, probably with only a few people running the deck, so each loss is more of a percentage compared to the million Phoenix decks over the 2 events. Over the past 2 years my winrate has stayed around 65% total, but we've seen quite a few shifts in the meta over that time, some periods we got absolutely crushed, like right after the unbannings. Some periods we couldn't lose. Right now is somewhere in the middle. We have a good number of good matchups as well as bad ones.. so it's hard to put a number on it, but it's not 41%.
If you look at Joymonger's post above, you'll see that with a couple less mistakes and a little better luck (we don't lose to GDS), the deck could've taken him all the way. Its Modern. Play what you like and play it well, you can win. Dont believe me? Did you notice Bogles had a 61% winrate in LA? Do we think that's reflective of their true winrate right now?
I totally got what you said here.
Deck seems strong in my limited experience with it.
Though I believe the point here is that the deck is inconsistent compared to other archtypes (ie we just win or lose big time) which is something we accept.
Re bogles:
The deck is actually pretty strong right now, though the deck is another high variance, inconsistent deck like ours.
I am new to the deck and have a few questions. Mainly about why certain cards aren't being played.
Why do none of the current decks play bolt spells like Magma Jet, Rift Bolt or Lightning Helix in R/W variants? Sweepers I see, but they will hurt you yourself as well if you have goblins in play. I also feel like Abrade,if played, is the preferred choice over bolts but its also more likely to be a dead card than bolts.
Also I don't see Trinisphere in any sideboards. I would have thought it would be a strong SB option against alot of decks. Izzet Phoenix, Burn, GDS, Scales, Storm, Bogles, Infect for example would struggle against 3 ball.
The last card I never see in sideboards is Scab-Clan Berserker. Eidolon is the prefered choice. I would think SCB would be a better fit as we get 3 mana quick. The damage ability is the same in most cases but it's a bigger body. What am I missing?
I am new to the deck and have a few questions. Mainly about why certain cards aren't being played.
Why do none of the current decks play bolt spells like Magma Jet, Rift Bolt or Lightning Helix in R/W variants? Sweepers I see, but they will hurt you yourself as well if you have goblins in play. I also feel like Abrade,if played, is the preferred choice over bolts but its also more likely to be a dead card than bolts.
Also I don't see Trinisphere in any sideboards. I would have thought it would be a strong SB option against alot of decks. Izzet Phoenix, Burn, GDS, Scales, Storm, Bogles, Infect for example would struggle against 3 ball.
The last card I never see in sideboards is Scab-Clan Berserker. Eidolon is the prefered choice. I would think SCB would be a better fit as we get 3 mana quick. The damage ability is the same in most cases but it's a bigger body. What am I missing?
I can't answer the bolt question entirely since I only play the Mono-Red version, but one reason is efficiency. Yes, sweepers can hit our own guys too, but generally speaking we want to be able to wipe the board/have the option to, especially since a large number of decks are now creature-based ones that go-wide or have creatures that keep coming back from the graveyard. Also Lightning Bolt and Magma Jet are less optimal since we want to be able to play a Chalice on 1 and/or 2 without having to worry about turning off our own spells. Abrade is also more versatile and isn't hit by Chalice on 1.
Trinisphere I feel is a personal preference thing, but I can't say for sure why it's not a popular choice.
Scab-Clan has several issues that people have mentioned in earlier posts:
1) It has to deal combat damage to be turned on, which conflicts with one of our central lock pieces, Ensnaring Bridge. Unlike Eidolon, which is guaranteed to start hurting as soon as it comes down, Scab-Clan has to deal combat damage and stay alive, which is difficult to do in such a creature-heavy meta. It just requires too much extra effort to play around for being largely the same effect, or even worse in matchups like Spirits or Humans.
2) It costs three mana compared to Eidolon's 2, and it still dies to bolt; furthermore the three mana creature slot is already occupied by Rabblemaster and Warboss, as well also being held by two of our primary lock pieces, Blood Moon and Bridge.
Current Modern Decks BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends." BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved." RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros." BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?" C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
I am new to the deck and have a few questions. Mainly about why certain cards aren't being played.
Why do none of the current decks play bolt spells like Magma Jet, Rift Bolt or Lightning Helix in R/W variants? Sweepers I see, but they will hurt you yourself as well if you have goblins in play. I also feel like Abrade,if played, is the preferred choice over bolts but its also more likely to be a dead card than bolts.
Also I don't see Trinisphere in any sideboards. I would have thought it would be a strong SB option against alot of decks. Izzet Phoenix, Burn, GDS, Scales, Storm, Bogles, Infect for example would struggle against 3 ball.
The last card I never see in sideboards is Scab-Clan Berserker. Eidolon is the prefered choice. I would think SCB would be a better fit as we get 3 mana quick. The damage ability is the same in most cases but it's a bigger body. What am I missing?
Magma Jet used to be the spot removal of choice before Abrade was printed, and was replaced because Abrade is just more versatile. Yes, it's a dead card in a few matchups but three damage over two is actually huge, and the added bonus of being artifact removal makes it the overall best choice for the slot. MD sweepers offer outs against go-wide strategies in game one, so Slagstorm has usually been the choice since you can send it to face instead of nuking your own goblins. Slagstorm isn't great in this meta, so you're starting to see more Angers main.
Trinisphere has been tested by a number of people a number of times, and unfortunately, it's just not good enough. Trust me here, we have some huge fans of 3-ball, if it could work, it would be played.
Eidolon is one mana cheaper than Scabby, which is relevant when you see how crowded the 3-drop slot is. Eidolon always deals two, hits creature spells as well, and Scabby never gets through in alot of matchups. I personally have ran both at the same time when Storm was really popular, and I do like Scab-clan, but we only have room for one or the other. Eidolon is strictly better.
Card selections may seem strange together at times in this deck, but make sense the more you learn how to play it. You have to think about the deck as two halves, aggro and control. As the control deck (vs GDS), goblins come out, control cards come in, and locking the opponent down and winning through five or six wincons becomes the plan. As the aggro deck (vs Tron), Bridges and irrelevant removal/lock pieces come out for extra gas. Some matchups, however, aren't as clear cut. Take for example, Mardu Pyromancer. Anger is good here, however, so is Rabblemaster. It comes down to attrition. In matchups like these, we take bridges out, leave creatures in, but also bring in sweepers. I've played a Rabble and followed up with Anger the next turn many times in this particular matchup, and nobody would ever expect that line. While it may look odd on paper, it definitely works.
On a random note, to play devil's advocate, how does a GBx player beat Prison? I finally finished building the Rock and got crushed by a buddy who runs Red Prison as well. On a side note however, he got out a turn one Chandra second game which was too fast for me to deal with, also had to mull to 6 both games.
I do plan on going back to Prison at some point, just excited to be playing a deck with black in it again.
Private Mod Note
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Current Modern Decks BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends." BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved." RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros." BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?" C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
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Sorry I cannot link the card as I am using my cellphone.
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4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
3 Legion Warboss
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Pyretic Ritual
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
14 Mountain
1 Mutavault
4 Ramunap Ruins
3 Gemstone Caverns
I’m sure others will chime in, but I’ve played it and played against it and it is a deceptively bad. It seems like a good lock, but it does more harm to you than good. Our rituals equate to dead cards with it out and a lot of decks play value over synergy. You would be better served using pain over more locks via EotGR and Harsh Mentor to bait field hate or close out a game quicker.
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Any opinions or thoughts about JakesMTG's BR Prison list in MTGLA? Looks quite spicy!
https://twitter.com/ChannelFireball/status/1102001206778519552
I know I have been out and about for awhile now in the month of February. I've been taking care of some personal things, but intently watching the meta when able and practicing when I can. I see we have many new faces, and although I cannot get quite back as far as I need to in order to catch up I tossed myself back 3 pages and thought I'd quote you guys and say hello and give some comments as I see them (which many have been answered by the likes of Raystack, Caligula, Zayl, Nate, and others!).
Welcome! Fresh eyes are always welcome. As some of the semi-veteran players are settling in we can lose sight of what may be another angle to tackle! By all means take all our suggestions to heart but bring your own also, especially if you have some of that sweet sweet data of results to back it up!
Congrats! I believe you were also taking this to a Badlands reward type of event this past (or previously past) Sunday! Hope that went well, and great run to start things out!
I'd like to back both Ray and Zayl here. The funny thing that is mentioned is sometimes you 'skip' Chalice on 1, this is understanding your meta opponent and what is likely to disrupt you from winning. Many points in modern you'll find that yes we are non-bo'ing as people call it, but if you don't have the effect in play by T4 anyway you're falling behind. Many will note our deck is 'inconsistent' and while this may have some truth to it we tackle the meta like a control deck does. A control deck wishes for the game to exceed past 8+ turns in order to aseemble pieces. We do similar things at times where we try to limit our opponents resources to give us the attempt to 'draw 8 (8 turns)'. Albeit we are giving out opponent that opportunity to draw out. Many will say that is not a way to play magic, but I'd fire back that my deck has a larger probablity to draw out my win condition as I retain X win conditions within the size of Y deck, where you have Z outs to get around my locks or limiting spells out of your deck.
This is a great response, well done Nate. I want to add my own words which may just simply echo this. My best example was actually an upset opponent. My opponent (on MTGO) slammed their messages in chat of the typical lucky, bad deck, etc. What was the most satisfying thing to read though was the comment "And you kept Eidolon in versus burn, what an idiot." What was satisfying about this is that we understood the matchup more then our opponent. What do I mean by this? Firstly, the deck I was running had x4 Eidolon sideboard, and x4 Bridge mainboard. G2 and G3 (I forget if it went to G3), involved the typical swaps of Anger of the Gods/Eidolons in and things like Ensnaring Bridge and probably some other shenanigans. What is not understood though is we are not hiding behind a bridge, which my opponent has to assume - Most will assume you are "Free Win Red" made popular by Saffron Olive of MTGGoldfish. This is where most get their data, and nothing wrong with that. Just something to note, when deciding if you are the "Aggo" or the "Control" matchup, it is important to know to give you the best edge. In the case of Eidolon, we are applying pressure. You won't get behind a bridge fast enough so you must rely on removal packages and aggression. Goodluck in your burn matchups! They can be quite 50/50 G1 not knowing what your opponent is on.
I know I am late for this response but wanted to say I hope it went well, and always consider playing something you are familiar with and understand the ins-and-outs! This rewards players much more then making last minute changes. Only when firmly comfortable with the deck would I recommend last minute changes. For the record, I cannot decide if I like Light up the Stage, and still cannot. I feel it may be the bait card like Sarkhan was a few sets back.
Great question, and I believe this is opinionated a touch between the community, it will also rely on your build and how you are approaching the meta. I'll break it down to three versions you could run, and then give from the "Classic" list what the matchups that are bad are.
Aggro List: Includes 6+ Rabblemasters and sometimes Eidolons in the Main. May consider Pia & Kiran or Hazoret and may go the extra mile with an additional one or a Koth. This list tends to lack a bit of removal for more power, and will be suited for Control, Burn, and Jund metas, though Jund may still give the creature dense list a run for its money.
Control List: This list will favor a heavy reliance on the planeswalker kill. It will possibly run the x4 Rabble but that would be it for creatures. It may choose to try and play something sneakier like Trinisphere or more sweepers. This list will do well in Creature/Midrange type of metas.
Classic List: Balances Moons/Locks/Creatures/Walkers. This is what we call the 50/50 and sometimes suffers from the "Drawing the wrong side of the deck" however with an appropriate sideboard G2/G3 should be well tuned and G1 should challenge Greedy Manabases. It will suffer to Combo drastically at times. This one is well suited for a GP or Large event, due to a more 'balanced' approach and the 'unknown' meta.
What are the bad matchups?
What are the good matchups?
Wow that's a lot of bad matchups? So what is good and why?
Other decks not listed? Either more 50/50 based, or just something I haven't thought of.
I'm sorry to report that Modern is not like Legacy. I'll try 3-ball (Trinisphere) from time to time, but I'll shelve that one. It may be decent against Pheonix and that would be about it. If your FNM meta is Pheonix all night, slam it in the main, if it is not leave little 3-ball at home.
Thank you
As a final note (I'll have a follow up at some point), but I think the deck list is decent and solves a problem or two that we have while hurting other matchups. My prime example is the lack of Eidolon of the Great Revel - missing from Storm based or "Multi-spell" decks. The pro of the deck, man Dredge just dies when you slam Leyline, and the combo of Chandra and Liliana is bone chilling and maybe more powerful in some cases then Jace and Teferi.
I'll have more in a future post, it is dinner, but look for the 5-0 lists from Competitive League tomorrow (Tuesday posting).
I played my version(2 dismember+2 abrade) with 8 rabble on Friday PTQ.
4-2 record
losses to human and abzan midrange
I played showtime version on GP
3-3 drop
losses to human, jund, mono red phoenix
Played stickballruss version with 4 rabble+2 walking ballista+more interaction on Sunday PTQ
Went 4-1-1. Drew last round for prize split.
Loss to u/r phoenix
Overall the deck felt good. Stick's version felt the best since it feels like playing a control/prison hybrid deck that can finish people off with a fast rabble draw and have more interaction. MVP by far this weekend was hazoret. It won so many games by itself(won't go below 2 copies MD).
Overall match record:
2-0 against Death shadow
1-2 against GB/X goyf deck
1-0 against GB midrange homebrew(no goyf, sakura tribe elder, not deathcloud)
2-1 against u/r pheonix
1-1 against mono red pheonix
1-0 against tron
1-0 against ad naus
0-2 against human
1-0 against harden scale
1-0 against amulet titan
If you are cutting moons, why play the deck in the first place?
I also went to GPLA this past weekend. Posted a 3-2-1 on Friday MCQ and went 9-6 in the main event. Went with a Boros list. -1 Moon, -1 Ritual, -1 Warboss, +4 Eidolon, +1 Jaya main, along with 2 Lava Coil and 1 Abrade for interaction. 2 RiP, 2 Stony, 1 Ravenous Trap, 3 Molten Rains, 1 Declaration in Stone, 1 Abrade, 2 Anger, 1 Spellskite, 1 Torpor, 1 Spyglass was my SB.
Rd. 1 - Bye
Rd. 2 - Mono-Red Phoenix, won - guy got a game loss and had to replace his sleeves; Chalice on 1 got there
Rd. 3 - BG Rock, won - game 1 and 3 Moon got there. Sided in Molten Rains, Dec in Stone, Skite, and a RiP. Close game. RiP helped turn off Goyf and minimized Kalitas’ impact. Took out bridges, not sure if correct, but with the Eidolons, I just wanted to keep the pressure up and keep him off a color.
Rd. 4 - Hardened Scales, lost - mulled to oblivion game 1, stomped game two. Needed Bridge to have a chance.
Rd. 5 - Storm, won - double Eidolons games 1 and 3 made it impossible for opponent. Sided in RiPs and Trap, removal and Skite, sided out Bridges and Moons.
Rd. 6 - Mono Green Stompy, lost - this one stung. Game one got aggroed out on a mull to 5 without a Bridge, he had no idea what I was playing since all I did was play a single Mountain. Sided in removal, sided out Moons and some Goblins. Won with a Bridge and Chandra emblem. Game 3, got a Chalice on one, got a Bridge out, but couldn’t dump my hand fast enough while he was smacking me with small guys. Then the worst punt of the weekend happened when he went to combat to swing all out and I forgot my Chalice trigger when he casted Aspect of the Hydra on an unblocked attacker. Felt reeeaaalllly bad. Very favored matchup.
Rd. 7 - Living End, won - game 1 hid behind Bridge and Chandra got there. Sided in RiPs, trap, Torpor, Skite, sided out Abrade, Eidolons, and a number of Chalices. Early Moon and Rabble got there.
Rd. 8 - Whir Prison, won - early Moon and pressure got there. Opponent showed a grip of 3 whirs in his hand that were uncastable. He bemoaned the match up, which is great because this was my win and in. Sided in Stonys, Skite (nonbo alert), 1 RiP, Abrade, spyglass, and Molten Rains, sided out Bridges, coils, and a couple Chalices. Sat behind a Moon and a Jaya and flung cardboard.
Rd. 9 - Izzet Phoenix, won - Chalice on one plus bridge got me there game 1 with Chandra, game three Jaya killed a flipped Thing in the Ice and a Ral and flung cardboard behind a Chalice on 1. Had removal for follow up creatures. Sided in Trap, Angers, Skite, Dec. in Stone, sided out Abrade, a Goblin and Moons.
Ended day one 7-2.
Rd. 10 - Eldrazi Tron, won - game one early moon shut down him casting things but I couldn’t find pressure. He drew into an Oblivion Sower, but I hid behind a Bridge and ticked up a Chandra, praying he didn’t have Karn or Ulamog, and thankfully getting there. Sided in Molten Rains, Skite, spyglass, Torpor, Dec in Stone, and Abrade, sided out Chalices, Eidolons. Hindsight, should’ve brought in a Stony or two, forgot about Ballista and Ratchet. Whoops. Game two he ran me over with double Mimic into TKS into Smasher. Game 3 got an early Bridge down and Chandra got there after we traded resources to keep the board clear.
Rd. 11 - Izzet Phoenix, won - double Eidolons in games 1 and 2 got there.
And here’s where the wheels fell off the wagon.
Rd. 12 - Mono Red Phoenix, lost - opponent did what they do, early pressure that I couldn’t recover from. Chalice on one wasn’t good enough, as Skewers still hurt. Sided in Dec in Stone, Abrade, Skite, Angers, sided out Moons and a couple Goblins. Game 2 I got a turn two Chalice on 1, but his first turn Swiftspear did like 10 damage by itself. Bridges and Chalices were swept away by a Shatterstorm, followed by an Experimental Frenzy. I couldn’t present enough damage and got burned out.
Rd. 13 - Dredge, loss - game one I mulled to 5 and didn’t play more than a single Mountain. Sided in Dec in Stone, RiPs, Trap, Skite, Angers, and Torpor, sided out Eidolons and Goblins and Abrade. Game 2 he scooped to a turn three RiP. Game 3 was slow on both sides, with neither of us finding pressure, but eventually he got the ball rolling, I had mana problems and couldn’t pitch my hand fast enough to get under Bridge and lost.
Rd. 14 - Dredge, loss - opponent wins on a god hand mull to 4, faithless into dredgers in the yard turn 1, triggers and chills turn two dredge, and just snowballs. Game two, same problem as previous game where I couldn’t get under Bridge due to lack of mana and no graveyard hate.
Rd. 15 - Grixis Death Shadow, loss - not as bad as my punt day 1, but this was the second feels bad of the weekend. Game one Chalice on 1 plus Rabble gets there. Side in Skite, Dec in Stone, RiPs, side out Goblins and Abrade. Game two I turn two Molten Rain his Blood Crypt off a SSG and Gemstone, and turn three Hazoret with an empty grip, feeling good that it can’t get Stubborn Denialed...but he has his 2-of Dismember and crushes my dreams. Game 3 mull to 5 and don’t remember much except dying to 2 large shadows. At one point I think he KCommanded my Chalice, brought back a milled Snapcaster and I knew I was toasted.
Overall, fun weekend, deck is powerful and still love it, but ending on 4 losses in a row was a bummer. Felt bad to lose to two favored matchups but good to beat Rock and Eldrazi Tron. Managed to dodge some horrendous matchups.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/from-port-to-oak-and-beyond-modern-matchups-bans-and-ravnica-allegiances/
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The numbers are from across 2 GPs, and we did terribly at GP Oakland, probably with only a few people running the deck, so each loss is more of a percentage compared to the million Phoenix decks over the 2 events. Over the past 2 years my winrate has stayed around 65% total, but we've seen quite a few shifts in the meta over that time, some periods we got absolutely crushed, like right after the unbannings. Some periods we couldn't lose. Right now is somewhere in the middle. We have a good number of good matchups as well as bad ones.. so it's hard to put a number on it, but it's not 41%.
If you look at Joymonger's post above, you'll see that with a couple less mistakes and a little better luck (we don't lose to GDS), the deck could've taken him all the way. Its Modern. Play what you like and play it well, you can win. Dont believe me? Did you notice Bogles had a 61% winrate in LA? Do we think that's reflective of their true winrate right now?
3x Gemstone Caverns
1x Mutavault
4x Ramunap Ruins
14x Mountain
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
4x Legion Warboss
2x Hazoret the Fervent
4x Simian Spirit Guides
2x Abrade
4x Desperate Ritual
1x Pyretic Ritual
4x Blood Moon
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Koth of the Hammer
4x Ensnaring Bridge
SB
2x Abrade
4x Anger of the Gods
1x Boil
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
4x Ravenous Trap
I totally got what you said here.
Deck seems strong in my limited experience with it.
Though I believe the point here is that the deck is inconsistent compared to other archtypes (ie we just win or lose big time) which is something we accept.
Re bogles:
The deck is actually pretty strong right now, though the deck is another high variance, inconsistent deck like ours.
Why do none of the current decks play bolt spells like Magma Jet, Rift Bolt or Lightning Helix in R/W variants? Sweepers I see, but they will hurt you yourself as well if you have goblins in play. I also feel like Abrade,if played, is the preferred choice over bolts but its also more likely to be a dead card than bolts.
Also I don't see Trinisphere in any sideboards. I would have thought it would be a strong SB option against alot of decks. Izzet Phoenix, Burn, GDS, Scales, Storm, Bogles, Infect for example would struggle against 3 ball.
The last card I never see in sideboards is Scab-Clan Berserker. Eidolon is the prefered choice. I would think SCB would be a better fit as we get 3 mana quick. The damage ability is the same in most cases but it's a bigger body. What am I missing?
I can't answer the bolt question entirely since I only play the Mono-Red version, but one reason is efficiency. Yes, sweepers can hit our own guys too, but generally speaking we want to be able to wipe the board/have the option to, especially since a large number of decks are now creature-based ones that go-wide or have creatures that keep coming back from the graveyard. Also Lightning Bolt and Magma Jet are less optimal since we want to be able to play a Chalice on 1 and/or 2 without having to worry about turning off our own spells. Abrade is also more versatile and isn't hit by Chalice on 1.
Trinisphere I feel is a personal preference thing, but I can't say for sure why it's not a popular choice.
Scab-Clan has several issues that people have mentioned in earlier posts:
1) It has to deal combat damage to be turned on, which conflicts with one of our central lock pieces, Ensnaring Bridge. Unlike Eidolon, which is guaranteed to start hurting as soon as it comes down, Scab-Clan has to deal combat damage and stay alive, which is difficult to do in such a creature-heavy meta. It just requires too much extra effort to play around for being largely the same effect, or even worse in matchups like Spirits or Humans.
2) It costs three mana compared to Eidolon's 2, and it still dies to bolt; furthermore the three mana creature slot is already occupied by Rabblemaster and Warboss, as well also being held by two of our primary lock pieces, Blood Moon and Bridge.
BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends."
BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved."
RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros."
BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?"
C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
Magma Jet used to be the spot removal of choice before Abrade was printed, and was replaced because Abrade is just more versatile. Yes, it's a dead card in a few matchups but three damage over two is actually huge, and the added bonus of being artifact removal makes it the overall best choice for the slot. MD sweepers offer outs against go-wide strategies in game one, so Slagstorm has usually been the choice since you can send it to face instead of nuking your own goblins. Slagstorm isn't great in this meta, so you're starting to see more Angers main.
Trinisphere has been tested by a number of people a number of times, and unfortunately, it's just not good enough. Trust me here, we have some huge fans of 3-ball, if it could work, it would be played.
Eidolon is one mana cheaper than Scabby, which is relevant when you see how crowded the 3-drop slot is. Eidolon always deals two, hits creature spells as well, and Scabby never gets through in alot of matchups. I personally have ran both at the same time when Storm was really popular, and I do like Scab-clan, but we only have room for one or the other. Eidolon is strictly better.
Card selections may seem strange together at times in this deck, but make sense the more you learn how to play it. You have to think about the deck as two halves, aggro and control. As the control deck (vs GDS), goblins come out, control cards come in, and locking the opponent down and winning through five or six wincons becomes the plan. As the aggro deck (vs Tron), Bridges and irrelevant removal/lock pieces come out for extra gas. Some matchups, however, aren't as clear cut. Take for example, Mardu Pyromancer. Anger is good here, however, so is Rabblemaster. It comes down to attrition. In matchups like these, we take bridges out, leave creatures in, but also bring in sweepers. I've played a Rabble and followed up with Anger the next turn many times in this particular matchup, and nobody would ever expect that line. While it may look odd on paper, it definitely works.
I do plan on going back to Prison at some point, just excited to be playing a deck with black in it again.
BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends."
BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved."
RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros."
BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?"
C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."