I currently run (1) Slagstorm and (1) Anger of the Gods, while having (2) Anger of the Gods in the Side. What's everyone's take on that it? Run 1, 2, or more? or none?
Do you run just the 4 of DR or throw in an extra PR?
Reasons? Thoughts?
No reason not to run the Desperates as a higher priority for those few times where the splice matters. Just add as many pyretics as you want to get to the total you like. Most people run 4-5 rituals. I'm kinda liking this 6-7 with Sarkhan/Avaricious Dragon being able to pitch any extras you draw. Gives you more outs for a turn one/two three drop and with the rummaging abilities on those cards you're more often able to do something with extra rituals so they aren't dead in your hand. Also in a pinch you can just cast them to lower your count for Ensnaring bridge.
I currently run (1) Slagstorm and (1) Anger of the Gods, while having (2) Anger of the Gods in the Side. What's everyone's take on that it? Run 1, 2, or more? or none?
Before Sarkhan, I run 3 sweltering sun main.
After Sarkhan, 2 Slagstorm will be my choice especially because you can rummage your dead cards.
Me personally don't run any sweepers on my trash dragon md list, while majority member of this forum will suggest you to bring at least 2.
Do you run just the 4 of DR or throw in an extra PR?
Reasons? Thoughts?
As mentioned before me, 5 will be great on normal list, 6 or 7 for trash dragon list.
While playing with a lot of 4cc, I have to see at least 1 mana accel on my opening hand before keeping it, not being able to cast something on my 2nd turn will be disaster.
One of my favorite quotes: "Honor is not something that can be earned. It can only be lost". This means that we all start with honor, regardless of what we do in life, it's only important that we never act without integrity and honesty. Gelati, you saved your honor in that apology email - owning up to the exaggeration. Good on you, and that's all there is to say about that.
As for Ritual counts, Moonsteak has it right.
IF you are doing a classic ramp up with a 2-3 spot removal and 2-3 sweeper removal, then you are 4-5 Rituals. 4 seems to be more popular these days.
IF you are going for almost NO removal, opting for 3 Sarkhan, 2 Avaricious Dragons, 4 Chandra, and a high 4-cmc count, then you are running 7 Rituals.
First scenario is 'stock' and the second scenario is 'trash' builds. Trash Dragon build is loaded with hyper-acceleration in an effort to 'go over the top' of your opponent: discard, sacrifice, exile, and rummage. It's dynamite when it clicks, and the creatures double as removal/blockers: 2 Pia and Kiran - 1 Hazoret - 2 dragons - 4 rabbles - 1 ballista.
Almost 5-0'd a Comp league (so 4-1 actually) with this jank...
Games were against Humans, Elves, Soulflayer Jund, Tron and Scales Affinity (<- loss). Not gonna bother writing it all out - Humans is favourable. So is Elves. Soulflayer thingy was weird, but Moonable. Tron handed it over to me due to Molten Rains. And Affinity just ran me over with 3 Ballistas in the last game. Too bad.
Notable differences: 22 lands. This is my jam. The extra one is Buried Ruin -> extra Bridge. Can't really run Deserts due to special liking to Koth. IMO the Deserts are quite a corner case usually. I've won a couple games due to the extra reach, still. Difference ain't huge, depends mostly on whether or not you run Koth. But again - going to 22 lands increases the chance of drawing at least 2 in your opening seven to 81%. Which is greater than 4/5 times -> 21 lands is 78% which is lower than 4/5 times. How many times you've looked at your one-lander, thinking ohhh why only 1...don't skimp on land boys&girls...
No Ballista. Never liked it. Sorry.
SB: No Eidolon/Scabbie either! What herecy is this! Molten Rains in their stead. Let's compare them:
Eidolon/Scabbie better:
Storm
Burn (but still mediocre)
Lantern (favourable MU anyway)
KCI (still not enough, Chalice on 1 and Matrix or bust)
Molten better:
Jund
Tron
UWx Control
To name just a few. So Molten Rains actually make hard matchups a tad better. In G2, it's quite a usual scenario where you Moon them, but they still manage to squeeze out 1 basic. Well, this takes care of the problem. Especially against Jund which is normally abysmal - but now you might just be able to lock them out of the game! In my match against Tron, the 2 Molten Rains forced them to stay behind while Rabblemaster ran over them. Had those cards been Eidolons, I would've lost.
Also - Eidolon is not really good against control, let's be honest here. They just Bolt/Path it and take 2. Always. Always...you need something else to supplement that. And that something is a Moon, but a Molten Rain will actually lock them down since they are going to have basics at that point anyway in G2/3. 2 Boils would be nice in the current meta, but even 1 is OK.
This is still up in the air obviously, but I might just be ditching the extra threats. Shrug.
Faerie Macabre idea was stolen from Fluffy. Thanks! But never got to use them. Maybe later.
That's pretty much it...I really liked this I must say. Gotta run it back a few times to see what's it all about.
Leyline of the Void.. it's tough for me to say it doesn't work when it's shown that it actually can. The real question in my mind is this:
Do we even need graveyard hate?
Up until recently, I've leaned toward no. I think we can beat Dredge, Hollow One and Bridgevine without it (I actually believe we're favored against Vine, but I haven't had a chance to play vs it), but KCI is the real question. Leyline of the Void could be huge, but they're bringing in Nature's Claim, and if they kill it you have 3 less cards in the deck, assuming you brought in 4. It could definitely slow them down if they don't have an answer in their starting hand, but do we find a clock fast enough with 3 extra dead cards?
Against Dredge I feel like they could pile up in your hand and kill you behind Bridge. I have no experience with this, and it hasn't happened yet in Fluffy's testing that I know of, just some thoughts.
It definitely shuts down Goyf. Jund would be a good matchup for Leyline to show up.. but again, do we beat them drawing dead cards?
So the questions are, how much value are we really getting in return for 4 sideboard slots, and how much value do we lose if we run less? Is this with mostly KCI in mind, and if so, how effective is it? Thanks to Ray for bringing this up, and to Fluff bringing in the play set to test.
Cali, I said that the other day. We have game vs graveyard decks already, I don't see a need for added gaye u less it's cage because it also stops coco and chord
And the argument against eidolon is good, except for one thing...those control matches are kinda grindy. 2 damage here, 2 damage there, and eventually you'll play an eidolona with them at 4 life and really mess them up. Remember, no one card beats control. It takes a lot of small edges over the course of a game....u less they don't have an answer....then they're just dead
I think I read that Raystack has a bridgeless version? Any chance Ray or someone could post it for me? I'm working on a brew which is a mix of Pyro Prison and Skred Dragons. Thanks In advance!
I think I read that Raystack has a bridgeless version? Any chance Ray or someone could post it for me? I'm working on a brew which is a mix of Pyro Prison and Skred Dragons. Thanks In advance!
That was me and I haven't put it together yet. I'm also working on some super secret tech that was me tioned at the very beginning of this forum......rift bolt. Stay tuned....
I'm taking Prison to battle out at the PTQ here at GP LA today. This is the list I'll be bringing:
*NOTE* there are 3 Abrades main. It seems one has been cut off.
I haven't played with Avaricious Dragon yet, but I liked what I saw watching Fluffy's streams and figured I'd give it a whirl. I'm happy with the main and took this list (minus the dragon) to a 3-0 finish at my weekly event yesterday only losing 1 game the whole night to a friend's Shadow Zoo deck that transformed into straight up Burn.. weird, I know. Only other difference here is that I traded in Hazoret the Fervent for a Damping Matrix. My reason being, I'm aggro enough out of the board I think and with Hardened Scales Affinity doing so well at the MOCS, its to be expected.
Awesome Russ. I am very interested in seeing your list. Here's my list I have been testing. The initial idea was to make a mix of Skred Dragons and Pyro Prison. This Is what I'm running currently...
I will give you the lowdown on some of the choices in the deck...
23 Lands + 4 SSG: At first, I did test 21 lands with 4 SSG and 4 Rituals. The problem I found was that I would be stuck on 2/3 lands. Without bridge you want to be hitting your lands every turn to keep up, or create pressure. The rituals helped early but there were so many games where I was stalled with the lack of mana. If anyone has success with extra rituals, let me know.
5 Dragons: Glorybringer has really impressed me. Stormbreath can just win games on its own and Avaricious has been a great late game threat. I was running more Dragons at first but found the deck to be too top heavy amd clunky. I was wanting some more early to mid game spells instead to 'balance' out the deck a bit.
Removal: Removal is pretty standard. I like the versatility of Abrade and Ratchet Bomb. Anger is great obviously and rift bolt has been impressive...may add more rift bolts in the future.
Rabblemaster: Against certain matchups or after angers he can just win the game by himself on empty boards. It's nice having an early threat in this type of deck like Rabble.
Anyway questions or suggestions, fire away!
Ive also been working on another pyro variant. Which I may post in the future...Pyro Stompy.
FNM. I'm on vacation, so why not? 33 players. I've never been to this store, and I recognize nobody. I cut my Scab-clans before I showed up, and my walk around the room made me confident in my decision. 4 rounds and a top 8 for a M19 box. Let's get to it!
Round 1:Bridgevine- dude makes a million zombies and 3 Veggies, I hold him off with monkeys and parents as long as I can but never find a Bridge or sweeper. After side I feel very favored here (note, no GY hate). G2 I keep a Bridge hand with 2 lands and some other stuff. He pitches 2 BfBs and a Veggie and I topdeck land number 3.. Scav Grounds. He says "oh *****!" Lol pop that. Bridge followed by another, Sarkhan shows up and draws me into Chandra, GG. G3 I t1 Chalice into t3 Chandra. He plays a Hangarback on 2 but I hit Anger off Chandras uptick and he scoops before I ult her, and I'm 1-0. This match is tasty.
Round 2:Bant Eldrazi- I mull to 5 in the blind and end up getting a fast Bridge down before TKS ruins my day. 4 Skyspawners for my opponent, meanwhile I assemble superfriends. I ult Chandra after a 2nd Bridge and it's time for g2. I play Gemstone and t1 Moon him (I apologized), followed by t3 Matrix. T4 he plays EE for 2 just to show me how it "toyed with his emotions". Sarkhan draws some cards and goes unmolested to dragontown. Opponent CLAIMED not to be scared, but we all know the truth.. glory to the Dragon brood. 2-0
Round 3:Burn- I win the roll and t1 Chalice totally in the blind. Guess I picked right. Rabs shows up and gets in for some damage before my opponent has to suspend a Rift Bolt to kill him. I find a Chalice on 2 right after and he scoops. G2 he gets a fast start with 3 creatures, I find an Anger but my life was already too low and he burns me out. G3 I get a t2 Chalice, t3 Moon and Abrade his Swifty. I land a Koth and dodge the Flim-flam to his emblem and race from there. Too many dead draws for my opponent, im 3-0
Round 4:Mardu Pyro- I mull to 5 with 2 Bridges and of course it's this matchup. He Thoughtseizes one of them but I t2 the next and curve into t4 Chandra, who eats a bolt at 7 before I find a Chalice and he can't find K. Command. G2 I fight through 3 Revs but he finds Hazoret, and God hath forsaken me. G3 I get a t1 Chalice into t3 and t4 Rabble. K. Command kills a Rab and the cup, but I get in with 4 gobs and Rabble to take him to 2, play a new Chalice on 1. He draws and scoops, showing me 3 Bolts. He says if he hit his t4 land drop I lose Rab 2 and maybe the game. I pointed out he drew K. Command that turn, land was no good. Im 4-0 folks. 1 seed.
Top 8:8-Rack- he Seizes a Rabble t1 and I draw a Bridge, which didn't excite me until he played Mind Rot t2! Sweet. He plays Rack and double Ravens Crime, I topdeck Rabs and it's tough for that deck to trigger revolt for Push. I top Chalice the next turn, so who cares? G2 I Gemstone and he Seizes only to see 2 Chalices. He physically deflated, took one, I casted the other and he played with his head in his hand the rest of the game until I found a win con. Easy money. 5-0!
Top 4:Mardu Pyro- same guy I just beat, and I'm confident in our gameplan here. G1 on the draw I keep 3 lands, Ritual, Rabs, Slag and Chalice.. good keep? I thought so. DON'T TAZE ME BRO!!!! He tazed me. T1 Inquisition into t2 double Seize. That was cute. G2 I get double Eidolons and he takes alot, I Abrade his Young Pyro and crack Scav to keep him off Reveler and finish the game off with a Ruins. G3 t1 Chalice, t2 Rab, t3 K. Command. Boo this man. Young Pyro and some Souls of the Lingering follow and I never find a sweeper. Lose the heart-breaker for the 4th place spot, 5-1
It was too much fun. Disappointing to lose like I did but I can't complain. I've been gunning for Bridgevine but haven't been able to run into it, im happy I finally did. GGs indeed.
I think I read that Raystack has a bridgeless version? Any chance Ray or someone could post it for me? I'm working on a brew which is a mix of Pyro Prison and Skred Dragons. Thanks In advance!
That was me and I haven't put it together yet. I'm also working on some super secret tech that was me tioned at the very beginning of this forum......rift bolt. Stay tuned....
I run bridgeless as well. I added chalice to the main since the last time i posted an it's won me a decent amount of games. It makes me wonder why i never had it mained in the first place. How many matchups did you find yourself moving bridge to the board? From what i've read from posts in here, it seems like it gets boarded out frequently.
Can you suspend rift bolt with a chalice on 1 since suspend is an ability?
Can you suspend rift bolt with a chalice on 1 since suspend is an ability?
Absolutely. The CMC remains what is printed on the card, not how much was paid to put it on the stack. Faitless Looting, for example, still gets countered by Chalice on 1 even if it's cast with flashback.
I think I read that Raystack has a bridgeless version? Any chance Ray or someone could post it for me? I'm working on a brew which is a mix of Pyro Prison and Skred Dragons. Thanks In advance!
That was me and I haven't put it together yet. I'm also working on some super secret tech that was me tioned at the very beginning of this forum......rift bolt. Stay tuned....
I run bridgeless as well. I added chalice to the main since the last time i posted an it's won me a decent amount of games. It makes me wonder why i never had it mained in the first place. How many matchups did you find yourself moving bridge to the board? From what i've read from posts in here, it seems like it gets boarded out frequently.
Can you suspend rift bolt with a chalice on 1 since suspend is an ability?
My list doesn't run bridges in the main or the side. I play bridges in the pyro prison version but this is a different take on the deck. My bridgeless version runs similar to skred but doesn't have as bad matchup like Skred does with combo and control.
I really like the pyro prison archetype. I think playing fast with rituals into Planeswalkers, creatures or lock pieces is powerful and It's fun brewing decks with those elements. Whether it's pyro prison, a bridgeless version or whatever ideas you have, I think there's alot of potential, and a lot of ways to go with deckbuilding. Which is exciting!
Yes you can suspend rift bolt for 1. Which is awesome.
Can you suspend rift bolt with a chalice on 1 since suspend is an ability?
Absolutely. The CMC remains what is printed on the card, not how much was paid to put it on the stack. Faitless Looting, for example, still gets countered by Chalice on 1 even if it's cast with flashback.
While playing at last GP side event I had a chalice on 2 while playing against hollow one. He played an ancient grudge, which got countered. Then he played it from the graveyard for the flashback cost. I told him that it was countered, and he called a judge. The lvl 2 judge explained that the cmc of a flashbacked card is the one showed on the flahback cost, so I should have had a chalice on 1 to counter it. That seemed very strange to me but you know, it's me against a judge so it was kinda pointless to argue
Local mountain slinging L1 here. That judge made the absolute wrong call. The cmc of a card is always its listed cmc. The only time that is different is when a card with an x in its cmc is on the stack then x will be x+other normal costs. Like a banefire for 3 will cost r+3 so its cmc will be 4
Can you suspend rift bolt with a chalice on 1 since suspend is an ability?
Absolutely. The CMC remains what is printed on the card, not how much was paid to put it on the stack. Faitless Looting, for example, still gets countered by Chalice on 1 even if it's cast with flashback.
While playing at last GP side event I had a chalice on 2 while playing against hollow one. He played an ancient grudge, which got countered. Then he played it from the graveyard for the flashback cost. I told him that it was countered, and he called a judge. The lvl 2 judge explained that the cmc of a flashbacked card is the one showed on the flahback cost, so I should have had a chalice on 1 to counter it. That seemed very strange to me but you know, it's me against a judge so it was kinda pointless to argue
Local mountain slinging L1 here. That judge made the absolute wrong call. The cmc of a card is always its listed cmc. The only time that is different is when a card with an x in its cmc is on the stack then x will be x+other normal costs. Like a banefire for 3 will cost r+3 so its cmc will be 4
that's what I thought.
You can always appeal. A perfect example also is things like Living End, Ancestral Visions, etc. These cards are 0, even though they are suspended or cascaded into. The judge definitely made the wrong call. If you need a further explanation or believe there is an issue with the call you are always welcome to appeal to either another judge or the head judge. You can always reference something like fuse cards for this, or cards like split cards and ask the judge to find the ruling to help you clarify and understand. They have tools to find the ruling and would have found CMC on flashback and seen
202.4. Any additional cost listed in an object’s rules text or imposed by an effect isn’t part of the mana cost. (See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”) Such costs are paid at the same time as the spell’s other costs.
601. Casting Spells
(This one has many sub bullets)
702.33. Flashback
702.33a Flashback appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two static abilities: one that
functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard and another that functions while the card is
on the stack. “Flashback [cost]” means “You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying
[cost] rather than paying its mana cost” and “If the flashback cost was paid, exile this card
instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack.” Casting a spell using its
flashback ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
601.2b If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player
wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.46), he or she reveals those cards in his or
her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it’s being cast such as
buyback or kicker costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions
to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2e). A player can’t apply two alternative methods
of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be
paid as it’s being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the
value of that variable. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana
symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost
that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player
announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for
each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback
from a graveyard or choosing to cast
Just some stuff, this is why Judge's exist though as they are to help individuals understand these rules.
My Round 1 opponent never showed up, so I got the free win. Round 2, I got paired against Humans and it went great. Round 3, I get paired against KCI. I get crushed game 1. Game 2, I play mountain, chalice for 0 - go. Follow up with Chalice on 1 pass. T3 Play Rabblemaster and it gets there. Lost the match to not enough interaction/threats on a mull to 5. I'm okay with that as it didn't really feel hopeless throughout the match.
My last 2 rounds of swiss however, I got paired against UW Control twice in a row. Blood Moon stole me game 1's against them but they were almost useless in games 2 and 3 which I found weird. What is your approach to this match up here? Mine was to be as aggressive as possible but even then, think threat draws lead to my demise. I mentioned that I wanted to add Damping Matrix back into my board yesterday but it was the only card that stood back the entire time. I'm just not sure if its really useful enough and maybe a little too narrow. I'm going to be adding Spyglass back into my board as I find it more applicable over a number of matches.
I think one takeaway I have and I've known but maybe don't always follow, is that the paper meta just does not change as quickly. I expected Hardened Scales Affinity and Vengevine's but didn't see any among the field while walking around at the 200ish player event. I'm in Los Angeles and Humans is HUGE out here so I at least came prepared to light them up.
Let me know your UW approaches! Thanks
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I currently run (1) Slagstorm and (1) Anger of the Gods, while having (2) Anger of the Gods in the Side. What's everyone's take on that it? Run 1, 2, or more? or none?
Do you run just the 4 of DR or throw in an extra PR?
Reasons? Thoughts?
No reason not to run the Desperates as a higher priority for those few times where the splice matters. Just add as many pyretics as you want to get to the total you like. Most people run 4-5 rituals. I'm kinda liking this 6-7 with Sarkhan/Avaricious Dragon being able to pitch any extras you draw. Gives you more outs for a turn one/two three drop and with the rummaging abilities on those cards you're more often able to do something with extra rituals so they aren't dead in your hand. Also in a pinch you can just cast them to lower your count for Ensnaring bridge.
Before Sarkhan, I run 3 sweltering sun main.
After Sarkhan, 2 Slagstorm will be my choice especially because you can rummage your dead cards.
Me personally don't run any sweepers on my trash dragon md list, while majority member of this forum will suggest you to bring at least 2.
As mentioned before me, 5 will be great on normal list, 6 or 7 for trash dragon list.
While playing with a lot of 4cc, I have to see at least 1 mana accel on my opening hand before keeping it, not being able to cast something on my 2nd turn will be disaster.
As for Ritual counts, Moonsteak has it right.
IF you are doing a classic ramp up with a 2-3 spot removal and 2-3 sweeper removal, then you are 4-5 Rituals. 4 seems to be more popular these days.
IF you are going for almost NO removal, opting for 3 Sarkhan, 2 Avaricious Dragons, 4 Chandra, and a high 4-cmc count, then you are running 7 Rituals.
First scenario is 'stock' and the second scenario is 'trash' builds. Trash Dragon build is loaded with hyper-acceleration in an effort to 'go over the top' of your opponent: discard, sacrifice, exile, and rummage. It's dynamite when it clicks, and the creatures double as removal/blockers: 2 Pia and Kiran - 1 Hazoret - 2 dragons - 4 rabbles - 1 ballista.
Games were against Humans, Elves, Soulflayer Jund, Tron and Scales Affinity (<- loss). Not gonna bother writing it all out - Humans is favourable. So is Elves. Soulflayer thingy was weird, but Moonable. Tron handed it over to me due to Molten Rains. And Affinity just ran me over with 3 Ballistas in the last game. Too bad.
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Buried Ruin
18 Mountain
Rito Oscuro
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
Removal
2 Abrade
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Threats
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Sarkhan, Fireblood
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Avaricious Dragon
4 Molten Rain
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Torpor Orb
2 Damping Matrix
1 Boil
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Notable differences: 22 lands. This is my jam. The extra one is Buried Ruin -> extra Bridge. Can't really run Deserts due to special liking to Koth. IMO the Deserts are quite a corner case usually. I've won a couple games due to the extra reach, still. Difference ain't huge, depends mostly on whether or not you run Koth. But again - going to 22 lands increases the chance of drawing at least 2 in your opening seven to 81%. Which is greater than 4/5 times -> 21 lands is 78% which is lower than 4/5 times. How many times you've looked at your one-lander, thinking ohhh why only 1...don't skimp on land boys&girls...
No Ballista. Never liked it. Sorry.
SB: No Eidolon/Scabbie either! What herecy is this! Molten Rains in their stead. Let's compare them:
Eidolon/Scabbie better:
Storm
Burn (but still mediocre)
Lantern (favourable MU anyway)
KCI (still not enough, Chalice on 1 and Matrix or bust)
Molten better:
Jund
Tron
UWx Control
To name just a few. So Molten Rains actually make hard matchups a tad better. In G2, it's quite a usual scenario where you Moon them, but they still manage to squeeze out 1 basic. Well, this takes care of the problem. Especially against Jund which is normally abysmal - but now you might just be able to lock them out of the game! In my match against Tron, the 2 Molten Rains forced them to stay behind while Rabblemaster ran over them. Had those cards been Eidolons, I would've lost.
Also - Eidolon is not really good against control, let's be honest here. They just Bolt/Path it and take 2. Always. Always...you need something else to supplement that. And that something is a Moon, but a Molten Rain will actually lock them down since they are going to have basics at that point anyway in G2/3. 2 Boils would be nice in the current meta, but even 1 is OK.
This is still up in the air obviously, but I might just be ditching the extra threats. Shrug.
Faerie Macabre idea was stolen from Fluffy. Thanks! But never got to use them. Maybe later.
That's pretty much it...I really liked this I must say. Gotta run it back a few times to see what's it all about.
Do we even need graveyard hate?
Up until recently, I've leaned toward no. I think we can beat Dredge, Hollow One and Bridgevine without it (I actually believe we're favored against Vine, but I haven't had a chance to play vs it), but KCI is the real question. Leyline of the Void could be huge, but they're bringing in Nature's Claim, and if they kill it you have 3 less cards in the deck, assuming you brought in 4. It could definitely slow them down if they don't have an answer in their starting hand, but do we find a clock fast enough with 3 extra dead cards?
Against Dredge I feel like they could pile up in your hand and kill you behind Bridge. I have no experience with this, and it hasn't happened yet in Fluffy's testing that I know of, just some thoughts.
It definitely shuts down Goyf. Jund would be a good matchup for Leyline to show up.. but again, do we beat them drawing dead cards?
So the questions are, how much value are we really getting in return for 4 sideboard slots, and how much value do we lose if we run less? Is this with mostly KCI in mind, and if so, how effective is it? Thanks to Ray for bringing this up, and to Fluff bringing in the play set to test.
And the argument against eidolon is good, except for one thing...those control matches are kinda grindy. 2 damage here, 2 damage there, and eventually you'll play an eidolona with them at 4 life and really mess them up. Remember, no one card beats control. It takes a lot of small edges over the course of a game....u less they don't have an answer....then they're just dead
That was me and I haven't put it together yet. I'm also working on some super secret tech that was me tioned at the very beginning of this forum......rift bolt. Stay tuned....
I'm taking Prison to battle out at the PTQ here at GP LA today. This is the list I'll be bringing:
*NOTE* there are 3 Abrades main. It seems one has been cut off.
I haven't played with Avaricious Dragon yet, but I liked what I saw watching Fluffy's streams and figured I'd give it a whirl. I'm happy with the main and took this list (minus the dragon) to a 3-0 finish at my weekly event yesterday only losing 1 game the whole night to a friend's Shadow Zoo deck that transformed into straight up Burn.. weird, I know. Only other difference here is that I traded in Hazoret the Fervent for a Damping Matrix. My reason being, I'm aggro enough out of the board I think and with Hardened Scales Affinity doing so well at the MOCS, its to be expected.
Wish me luck and ask question or give critiques!
1x Avaricious Dragon
2x Glorybringer
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
1x Hazoret the Fervent
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Stormbreath Dragon
Removal 9
3x Abrade
3x Anger of the Gods
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Rift Bolt
4x Blood Moon
4x Chalice of the Void
Planeswalkers 6
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Sarkhan, Fireblood
Lands 23
3x Gemstone Caverns
15x Mountain
4x Ramunap Ruins
1x Scavenger Grounds
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Boil
2x Damping Matrix
3x Damping Sphere
1x Shattering Spree
2x Spellskite
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Trinisphere
I will give you the lowdown on some of the choices in the deck...
23 Lands + 4 SSG: At first, I did test 21 lands with 4 SSG and 4 Rituals. The problem I found was that I would be stuck on 2/3 lands. Without bridge you want to be hitting your lands every turn to keep up, or create pressure. The rituals helped early but there were so many games where I was stalled with the lack of mana. If anyone has success with extra rituals, let me know.
5 Dragons: Glorybringer has really impressed me. Stormbreath can just win games on its own and Avaricious has been a great late game threat. I was running more Dragons at first but found the deck to be too top heavy amd clunky. I was wanting some more early to mid game spells instead to 'balance' out the deck a bit.
Removal: Removal is pretty standard. I like the versatility of Abrade and Ratchet Bomb. Anger is great obviously and rift bolt has been impressive...may add more rift bolts in the future.
Rabblemaster: Against certain matchups or after angers he can just win the game by himself on empty boards. It's nice having an early threat in this type of deck like Rabble.
Anyway questions or suggestions, fire away!
Ive also been working on another pyro variant. Which I may post in the future...Pyro Stompy.
2 Sarkhan, Fireblood
1 Koth of the Hammer
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Walking Ballista
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
2 Abrade
1 Slagstorm
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Ramunap Ruins
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Scavenger Grounds
14 Mountain
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Torpor Orb
1 Damping Matrix
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Boil
1 Spellskite
1 Shattering Spree
FNM. I'm on vacation, so why not? 33 players. I've never been to this store, and I recognize nobody. I cut my Scab-clans before I showed up, and my walk around the room made me confident in my decision. 4 rounds and a top 8 for a M19 box. Let's get to it!
Round 1:Bridgevine- dude makes a million zombies and 3 Veggies, I hold him off with monkeys and parents as long as I can but never find a Bridge or sweeper. After side I feel very favored here (note, no GY hate). G2 I keep a Bridge hand with 2 lands and some other stuff. He pitches 2 BfBs and a Veggie and I topdeck land number 3.. Scav Grounds. He says "oh *****!" Lol pop that. Bridge followed by another, Sarkhan shows up and draws me into Chandra, GG. G3 I t1 Chalice into t3 Chandra. He plays a Hangarback on 2 but I hit Anger off Chandras uptick and he scoops before I ult her, and I'm 1-0. This match is tasty.
Round 2:Bant Eldrazi- I mull to 5 in the blind and end up getting a fast Bridge down before TKS ruins my day. 4 Skyspawners for my opponent, meanwhile I assemble superfriends. I ult Chandra after a 2nd Bridge and it's time for g2. I play Gemstone and t1 Moon him (I apologized), followed by t3 Matrix. T4 he plays EE for 2 just to show me how it "toyed with his emotions". Sarkhan draws some cards and goes unmolested to dragontown. Opponent CLAIMED not to be scared, but we all know the truth.. glory to the Dragon brood. 2-0
Round 3:Burn- I win the roll and t1 Chalice totally in the blind. Guess I picked right. Rabs shows up and gets in for some damage before my opponent has to suspend a Rift Bolt to kill him. I find a Chalice on 2 right after and he scoops. G2 he gets a fast start with 3 creatures, I find an Anger but my life was already too low and he burns me out. G3 I get a t2 Chalice, t3 Moon and Abrade his Swifty. I land a Koth and dodge the Flim-flam to his emblem and race from there. Too many dead draws for my opponent, im 3-0
Round 4:Mardu Pyro- I mull to 5 with 2 Bridges and of course it's this matchup. He Thoughtseizes one of them but I t2 the next and curve into t4 Chandra, who eats a bolt at 7 before I find a Chalice and he can't find K. Command. G2 I fight through 3 Revs but he finds Hazoret, and God hath forsaken me. G3 I get a t1 Chalice into t3 and t4 Rabble. K. Command kills a Rab and the cup, but I get in with 4 gobs and Rabble to take him to 2, play a new Chalice on 1. He draws and scoops, showing me 3 Bolts. He says if he hit his t4 land drop I lose Rab 2 and maybe the game. I pointed out he drew K. Command that turn, land was no good. Im 4-0 folks. 1 seed.
Top 8:8-Rack- he Seizes a Rabble t1 and I draw a Bridge, which didn't excite me until he played Mind Rot t2! Sweet. He plays Rack and double Ravens Crime, I topdeck Rabs and it's tough for that deck to trigger revolt for Push. I top Chalice the next turn, so who cares? G2 I Gemstone and he Seizes only to see 2 Chalices. He physically deflated, took one, I casted the other and he played with his head in his hand the rest of the game until I found a win con. Easy money. 5-0!
Top 4:Mardu Pyro- same guy I just beat, and I'm confident in our gameplan here. G1 on the draw I keep 3 lands, Ritual, Rabs, Slag and Chalice.. good keep? I thought so. DON'T TAZE ME BRO!!!! He tazed me. T1 Inquisition into t2 double Seize. That was cute. G2 I get double Eidolons and he takes alot, I Abrade his Young Pyro and crack Scav to keep him off Reveler and finish the game off with a Ruins. G3 t1 Chalice, t2 Rab, t3 K. Command. Boo this man. Young Pyro and some Souls of the Lingering follow and I never find a sweeper. Lose the heart-breaker for the 4th place spot, 5-1
It was too much fun. Disappointing to lose like I did but I can't complain. I've been gunning for Bridgevine but haven't been able to run into it, im happy I finally did. GGs indeed.
I run bridgeless as well. I added chalice to the main since the last time i posted an it's won me a decent amount of games. It makes me wonder why i never had it mained in the first place. How many matchups did you find yourself moving bridge to the board? From what i've read from posts in here, it seems like it gets boarded out frequently.
Can you suspend rift bolt with a chalice on 1 since suspend is an ability?
Absolutely. The CMC remains what is printed on the card, not how much was paid to put it on the stack. Faitless Looting, for example, still gets countered by Chalice on 1 even if it's cast with flashback.
My list doesn't run bridges in the main or the side. I play bridges in the pyro prison version but this is a different take on the deck. My bridgeless version runs similar to skred but doesn't have as bad matchup like Skred does with combo and control.
I really like the pyro prison archetype. I think playing fast with rituals into Planeswalkers, creatures or lock pieces is powerful and It's fun brewing decks with those elements. Whether it's pyro prison, a bridgeless version or whatever ideas you have, I think there's alot of potential, and a lot of ways to go with deckbuilding. Which is exciting!
Yes you can suspend rift bolt for 1. Which is awesome.
Local mountain slinging L1 here. That judge made the absolute wrong call. The cmc of a card is always its listed cmc. The only time that is different is when a card with an x in its cmc is on the stack then x will be x+other normal costs. Like a banefire for 3 will cost r+3 so its cmc will be 4
You can always appeal. A perfect example also is things like Living End, Ancestral Visions, etc. These cards are 0, even though they are suspended or cascaded into. The judge definitely made the wrong call. If you need a further explanation or believe there is an issue with the call you are always welcome to appeal to either another judge or the head judge. You can always reference something like fuse cards for this, or cards like split cards and ask the judge to find the ruling to help you clarify and understand. They have tools to find the ruling and would have found CMC on flashback and seen
202.4. Any additional cost listed in an object’s rules text or imposed by an effect isn’t part of the mana cost. (See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”) Such costs are paid at the same time as the spell’s other costs.
601. Casting Spells
(This one has many sub bullets)
702.33. Flashback
702.33a Flashback appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two static abilities: one that
functions while the card is in a player’s graveyard and another that functions while the card is
on the stack. “Flashback [cost]” means “You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying
[cost] rather than paying its mana cost” and “If the flashback cost was paid, exile this card
instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack.” Casting a spell using its
flashback ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
601.2b If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player
wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.46), he or she reveals those cards in his or
her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it’s being cast such as
buyback or kicker costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions
to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2e). A player can’t apply two alternative methods
of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be
paid as it’s being cast (such as an {X} in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the
value of that variable. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana
symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost
that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player
announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for
each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback
from a graveyard or choosing to cast
Just some stuff, this is why Judge's exist though as they are to help individuals understand these rules.
My Round 1 opponent never showed up, so I got the free win. Round 2, I got paired against Humans and it went great. Round 3, I get paired against KCI. I get crushed game 1. Game 2, I play mountain, chalice for 0 - go. Follow up with Chalice on 1 pass. T3 Play Rabblemaster and it gets there. Lost the match to not enough interaction/threats on a mull to 5. I'm okay with that as it didn't really feel hopeless throughout the match.
My last 2 rounds of swiss however, I got paired against UW Control twice in a row. Blood Moon stole me game 1's against them but they were almost useless in games 2 and 3 which I found weird. What is your approach to this match up here? Mine was to be as aggressive as possible but even then, think threat draws lead to my demise. I mentioned that I wanted to add Damping Matrix back into my board yesterday but it was the only card that stood back the entire time. I'm just not sure if its really useful enough and maybe a little too narrow. I'm going to be adding Spyglass back into my board as I find it more applicable over a number of matches.
I think one takeaway I have and I've known but maybe don't always follow, is that the paper meta just does not change as quickly. I expected Hardened Scales Affinity and Vengevine's but didn't see any among the field while walking around at the 200ish player event. I'm in Los Angeles and Humans is HUGE out here so I at least came prepared to light them up.
Let me know your UW approaches! Thanks