I’ve been looking at all these amazing finishes with the deck and looking at other lists that are knocking down tournaments and I’ve been wondering; are our bad matchups preventing this deck from being great?
We have even/good/great matchups against so much of the playing field, but our bad matchups seem SO bad.
Russ is stressing out about Goyf in Jund, I keep getting rolled over by people who can’t let go of E-Tron, and decks like Grishoalbrand and BlueMoon also seem very unfavorable.
I’ve also wondered how this deck can get published so many times while still straddling the line between under-the-radar and fringe. Even when it does get a nod in articles from the pros it never seems like it’s acknowledged as the real deal.
Do any of the Tier 1 decks (KCI, Humans, Hollow One, Jeskai, Jund, Affinity, etc.) have matchups as ‘unwinnable’ as ours, and if not, is that why everyone still seems kind of deaf to Pyro Prison? They can’t even remember the name...
Not trying to be dramatic; I’m tragically insecure, especially when it comes to Modern. I’m proud to be waving this flag, and I would never let anyone say this is a bad deck.
It just concerns me that if a bad matchup meets us in the Top-8 we’re just not gonna make 1st.
Thoughts? Comfort? Reassurance?
1. This deck is EXTREMELY hard to play. It takes a lot of practice and attention to detail to play this type of strategy.
2. Jund is hard because all their removal can hit EVERYTHING we play. Nothing is safe when you play against jund. So, when nothing is safe and they play 6/7 dudes, that's a problem.
3. Eldrazi Tron is the same thing, but different. they just don't care about our lock pieces. lots of ways to get that one colorless mana, chalice sucks, and they can win from behind a bridge as easily as we can.
4. Those other decks have a better overall strategy than we do. They have bad matches, but those bad matches are not as bad as our bad matches.
This deck generates power from playing super powerful effects ahead of curve. It doesn't do a good job with card selection and can lose to itself if you draw lock pieces in a match where they're useless. How many games are lost because you keep a two bridge hand, think your great, then the opponent goes Urza's mine, Expedition map....you just took a mulligan to 5 and didn't even realize it. Or how about when you power out a blood moon on the fitst turn, then your opponent plays a land, burning inquiry, and puts a 4/4 in play. You spend three cards and literally did nothing to help win that game.
That's the negative and it's enough to drive people away from this deck. It doesn't have a fast clock most of the time, It's lock pieces are sometimes irrelevant, and there's very little way to generate any sort of card selection to try to find the right cards for the right match. Thats why the "pros" don't pick this up.
And it's their loss. This deck is busted once you learn to play it right. There are a lot of decks that just fold to a turn one/two blood moon. turn one rabblemaster wins games on it's own. Sarkhan fixes the problem of drawing bridges vs control or drawing that 2nd blood moon. Chalice stops a lot of what's happening in modern today. As long as you identify your role correctly, you'll be good. Of the decks you mentioned, Jund is the only one that I don't want to see across from me. I'm good with facing everything else. And hollow-one/humans, and tron help keep jund at bay. I'm leaving jund to those decks. Would it be nice to be able to deal with Goyf? Absolutely. But I'm not willing to make major concessions to be able to win vs jund when no matter what we do, jund is still going to be a bad match. We are better off just trying to dodge jund altogether and if we get paired up against it, do our best, take out lumps, and move on.
Long time reader, first time poster. Love the deck!
I have a question. Post board do you think our artifacts need more protection? Artifact/enchantment removal is in most sideboards in modern and getting a bridge removed, or another artifact, can just be game for the opponent against me.
Do you think either Spellskite, Welding jar, Buried Ruin or amy other cards could help the deck be more resistant to removal?
Thanks in advance.
I almost always bring in a spellskite for this exact reason. it's also stops ravager's modular ability, EVERYTHING from bogles and infect, and can absorn both parts of K-command. It also makes bolts, helixes, right bolts, o-ring, d-sphere, laughably bad. of those you mentioned, skite is the one you want. I run one in the board.
Russ, why not dire fleet daredevil? If the Jund opponent runs out fatal push or abrupt decay daredevil is a 3-4 mana answer for goyf that leaves behind a body that can block Bloodbraid Elf.
Also 4-0 in a 40 person FNM last night! Tournament reporter coming in soon!
Russ, why not dire fleet daredevil? If the Jund opponent runs out fatal push or abrupt decay daredevil is a 3-4 mana answer for goyf that leaves behind a body that can block Bloodbraid Elf.
Also 4-0 in a 40 person FNM last night! Tournament reporter coming in soon!
If Dire Fleet was good in other matches, I'd say yes, 100%. Problem is that it's just too narrow. What else is it good against? remember, we are not going to cards advantage in this deck, so the incremental advantage we get doesn't really matter here. If you can give me three decks it's amazing vs, I'm in.
What sort of match-ups does Sarkhan come out? Does he? I was thinking maybe against aggro zoo style, but then he helps you find the bridge or sweeper you need. I'm in with 2, almost had to buy a foil for like $35 - forget that - but I got my 2. Anyway, I'm writing up some sideboard stuff and that general question came to mind...
What sort of match-ups does Sarkhan come out? Does he? I was thinking maybe against aggro zoo style, but then he helps you find the bridge or sweeper you need. I'm in with 2, almost had to buy a foil for like $35 - forget that - but I got my 2. Anyway, I'm writing up some sideboard stuff and that general question came to mind...
I take at least one out vs burn. Basically, in the matches where you die by spending three mana and not doing anything. Burn and infect come to mind.
Natehill sledding down the mountain into a 4-0 finish - HUGE. You asked about Dire Fleet Daredevil, and Russ asked for a list of when it comes in. It's a bit more complicated than that SINCE Dire Fleet Daredevil conflicts with Torpor Orb. Thus, I dropped it a while ago. BUT, I've just slimmed my Torpor Orb count to (1), not (2). Soooo, maybe it's booty time again? The following is when I'd bring it in and it doesn't conflict with Torpor Orb. Just a quick excerpt. For a more full explanation/analysis, check out my Pyro Prison - Card Spotlight: Dire Fleet Daredevil. https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/control/663335-pyro-prison-goblinized-mono-red-control-the?comment=2117
Before, I go any further, Revenged! You magnificent son of a gun. That's one hell of a write-up on game theory as it applies to 'soft-lock prison' strategy. I did just touch up the Official Primer, and may have to make room to tag that into the Strategy Guide.
Ha! to Gelati - all's forgiven. And, welcome to Wiblo! As for shoring up defenses of our locks, yup - look to Spellskite.
Since people are talking deeply on the topic of Deck Crafting, I'll share yet another deck name change that I introduced - basically to myself as a tee-hee inside joke. BUT, I know the kin will get a laugh out of it as well. So, Trash Dragons, when first drafted, kept that sideboard of (4) Eidolon and (2) Scab-clan Berserker. Then, I dropped all of the ground troops out of the (15), and opted for an olde-style 'toolbox' approach.
What's that mean? So, throw away all of the creatures AND all of the 1-for-1 removal spells (keep a few Anger of the Gods), and add total lockdown cards that allow for a turtle up: Grafdiggers/Torpor/Damping Matrix-Sphere/Witchbane. In the struggle for choosing Spear OR Shield, I'm kind of doing both by keeping the Avaricious Dragons. Huh. Well, this calls for a new name!
A turtle down - dragon attack hybrid. Now, what could that be? Well, for those of you who are fans of vintage Godzilla, you are already ahead of me on this Kaiju.
Ray shouldn't you also bring daredevil in against storm for the games where they "mow the lawn" to kill an early rabblemaster allowing you to exil the grapeshot and can use their bolts to kill their bears.
@Stickballruss. do you feel 2 Spree's or needed in the sideboard or would you possibly feel a 1/1 spree abrade is manageable? also you expressed dislike in the Whirlyboi would you think adding up to the 2nd cage is a proper replcement for him given the surge of graveyard based decks coming ot the forefront right now?.
@Stickballruss. do you feel 2 Spree's or needed in the sideboard or would you possibly feel a 1/1 spree abrade is manageable? also you expressed dislike in the Whirlyboi would you think adding up to the 2nd cage is a proper replcement for him given the surge of graveyard based decks coming ot the forefront right now?.
With the rise of kci and how prevalent affinity is when playing paper magic, I like two spree. I was originally on the 1/1 spree/abrade plan until kci showed up. Now 2 spree until wizards does something about kci....if they ever do.
Yeah, I was thinking 2nd cage myself. It's my least used sidebaord card, but it's the one you need the most in the matches where you need it ...Coco, bant spirits, dredge, and elves are all really hard and the cage helps so much in those matches.
I got dinged last night chaps. 1-2. I told myself going in to the night I would report results good or bad. I have seen a lot of people who are doing well with the deck posting about it and I wonder how often we post bad results. I also told myself learn something. So yeah I love when Ray starts with quotes... I'm going to tip my cap to the finance community [Russ!] and use a wall street adage for this post
Bears make money, bulls make money, but pigs get slaughtered.
I don't know how often any of you catch flak or hate for being the Blood Moon deck. I know I've read previously that folks have experienced hostility, and I get it too, online and in paper [I forget who posted it but someone was once like "I went outside to hit my weed pen and I heard people hating on my Blood Moon deck and it made me feel less than good." Hah. I remember thinking, why you corny postin' bout ya bud business haha, but on a more serious note, I felt it too]. I'm newer to modern... I played in Stronghold and Tempest when I was just a wee Rev, but grew away from the game. I remember wrecking my neighborhood Magic circuit, and loving it. I knew I had that spike sort of mentality when I wouldn't let my little brothers use their lands if they forgot to untap them at the beginning of their turn. They held me to the same standards hey hey easy easy. But to bring it back, coming into the game I didn't realize how many troll-type, salty-type cats there can honestly be. Its cool though, it adds to the sweet nectar of victory of course, whatever, you can try to rules lawyer me about the type of die we roll before the match, fine, we'll use a 3,000 sided die because it has the highest chance of producing random results, jesus are you serious!? I've naively dove into the most competitive scenes possible and experienced stuff I couldn't spout from my craftiest nozzle.
I thought people would just be like oh cool deck good match, thanks for playing, have a nice day, shake hands, here's a few tips, high fives.... Then... I lost a match... and felt the salt... then I lost on Turn 2... then I met Karn... and Ugin... and Griselbrand... and Grapeshot... and Mox Opal... and was like whoa there's broken things happening everywhere - cool. I want to do my own broken thing. I want to punish all these greedy decks that do broken things. How can I do that?
Greedy mana base - Blood Moon. Cheap obese creates - Bridge. Insanely low average CMC - Chalice. These tools are amazing. They punish the hell out of so many decks. You spent $500 on your mana base and for $80 I turned it to $5.00. So I heard chatter last night and maybe I'm not a calloused vet like some folks are. Honestly if I turn 1 Blood Moon someone on the Play and they have all fetches and scoop after I drop Chandra 5 turns later - I feel a little bad. But breh, that's what I signed up for. If I could play a card that says "YOU LOSE!" on turn 1 every game, yes, I would play it, and you likely would too. We are all doing broken things, and the mountainfolk around here, are Punishers. We're not here to draw our deck, or cast 50 spells, or play a bunch of creatures, we're here to punish your broken strategy.
And so that's what I told them. Someone was saying something like oh that's a wack deck or something and I said your just salty cause I'm the Punisher. That's it. IDK the genesis of all this greed, probably just a fall out of competitive spirit, but it is what it is. People talk about fair, unfair, w/e. Its all out there. You can play what you want. But I'm going to play Pyro Prison, because I bet with all likelihood that you're doing something greedy that I can punish you for.
On the data side, I lost my 2 matches because I dropped a game where I kept a hand with 1 land - that's all. I beat Jeskai Control Round 1 2-0, Chandra T1 and Moon T1. Lost to Spirits 1-2, couldn't cast my hand to get behind Bridge. Lost to Jund 1-2 couldn't cast my hand to get behind Bridge, he showed 2 Decays after, so I was smoked either way.
I kept strong hands in all my games but 2. I've made the "I'm not keeping a one-lander" rule, and broken it so many times, with success, that I have to revisit it [Turn 1 Chandra, uptick into Chalice or uptick to Ritual into a Moon is the nuts isn't it?]. I think its about having 2 or more mana guaranteed on T2 and what's mana on T3 look like? I've learned that a lot of magic is, damn I'm one land away, but I think in our deck its so crucial to have broken mana early. I'm going to start taking a harder look at T2 and T3 mana when I fan open.
Sorry for the long winded social post, but I hope that next time someone throws salt your Blood Moon way you recognize they fear The Punisher.
Good afternoon fellow Mountain Folk, here is my tournament report from the 40 person 4 rounds no top 8 thing I attended on Wednesday, not a huge event but I have some good points I learned and thought I’d share. I’ve been having success with a version of one of Rays decks, THE VOICE(patent pending), with a few of my own weird modifications. I do also want to note that I have played Rays exact list before, it even won me a 30 person 5 round cut to top 8 big prize event around the time when he first developed the deck, and has also won (and lost) me various 20 person FNMs, so my changes are based on testing and for this event I didn’t know the meta.
Now some logic about my card choice before I jump in.
The Slagstorm Anger split main and side is due to me thinking I want two sweepers but I don’t want two angers, but I know anger is great, and Ray said when it’s not great you can discard it to T. voice, but if I’m stuck with two game 1 it’s gonna suck, so I did the split in main, and split in side. It is possible that I should just have the sideboard slag be an anger, but I figured if I face humans I’d be happy I had an even split.
Scabby boy main: Ray had Eidolon main and I figured game one I’d rather not deal damage to myself as much in the blind. I did test this slot with Eidolon before and it was ok.
Ratchet bomb: it’s just my fourth chalice... I’ll get it eventually...
Koth: I didn’t like 6 mana Chandra in testing, she seems both harder to cast and strictly worse than her 4 mana counterpart, so I swapped her to koth, even with 12 mountains... In testing I’ve had a minimum of one mountain every time I cast him, but I should probably swap Buried Ruin to mountain 13
I’ve been reading and think about what Russ (and others) have been preaching for a long time about knowing your role in a matchup, so for the first time I kept that in mind during the event and sideboarded accordingly.
Round 1: Infect
Game 1: I mulled to 6 and kept a decent aggro hand with rabblemaster and an abrade to kill a blocker, he fetches breeding pool and plays glistner elf, turn two I play Rabble, I kill elf and he eventually kills me with a one shot from Inkmoth
Sideboard: I’m the control player against infect Ez Pz. Out: 4x rabble 1x koth 1x hazoret 1x T. voice. In: 3x Eidolon 1x Anger 1x Slag 1x Spellskite 1x abrade
Game 2: I haven’t shown any lock pieces so he really doesn’t know what I’m doing, he mulls to 4... I continue to hold lock pieces because after Eidolon and mutavault start beating in I already have it in the bag.
Game 3: turn 2 skite, abrades, sweepers, then the lock pieces come down and it’s game, he did punt in his defense by trying to target my skite with vines of vastwood so I couldn’t redirect... but that’s not how it works.
Win 2-1
Round 2: Storm
Game 1: So this is a friend of mine, and we kind of already knew how the games would go, especially after sideboarding. I start with a hand that’s basically a quick hazoret and lands, I decided to keep strictly because I had Scavenger Grounds. I get Hazzy out turn 2 and start discarding lands at his endsteps while also keeping the blowing the yards activation up, I eventually start to swing in, at this point I still have only draw lands but I wasn’t to worried, and when I got him to a virtual 1 and I feel like I have the game in the bag, he rituals a bunch, grapeshot remand same grapeshot second grapeshot, swings with goblin electromancer past my tapped Hazoret and deals exactsies, needless to say my jaw was dropped.
Sideboard: Since this is a combo deck I am control, but control in the way that I’m just trying to make him lose more than I’m actively trying to win. Out: 4x ensnaring bridge 4x Blood moon 1x Koth. In: 3x Eidolon 1x Damping Sphere 1x Witchbane orb 2x grafdiggers 1x Slagstorm 1x abrade
Game 2: grafdiggers turn 1 with Eidolon and rabble wins the game
Game 3: very grindy matchup, he played gifts and he assured me after I picked that I was doing the correct piles in the situation, eidolons and chalice take turns being on the board and being in my hand, it’s honestly a very close and very fun game but I pull it out in the end.
Win 2-1
Round 3: Humans
Game 1: Backstory, I’ve played at this game store only 1 time before, and I happened to play against this guy, so he already knows what I’m on and he’s physically sweating. Game 1 starts with aether vial that I abrade, and freebooter takes my moon. He starts playing a lot of creatures and eventually gets a malcontent and phantasmal image malcontent to drain me to 1, I don’t remember the exact board, but I do know that I used the parents to throw thopters at thalias, and that the mom and dad were the only reason I had stayed alive even this long. I had some weird bridge math, and for some reason I added it up and the only way I could survive was if my chandra ticked up and revealed abrade, it did that and killed the freebooter that had me dead next turn, and with my goblin chump blocks I was able to get empty handed with moon and bridge on the board at 1 life. After an anger he scooped it up
Sideboard: I am definitely control in this matchup. Out 4x rabbles. In 1x slag 1x anger 1x abrade 1x torpor orb
Game 2: I get a koth down and get to ultimate status, but decided not to because he wasn’t attacking koth and I only had 1 mountain, so I couldn’t even ping his creatures (reasons not to play koth/have more mountains)
If I had another mountain instead of my 3 Ramunap ruins, I could’ve killed meddling mage naming moon and then the freebooter that had my moon underneath it. He eventually kills Koth and me.
Game 3: sweepers and lock pieces fall out of my hands and onto the board, easyish win.
Win 2-1
Round 4: Titan Shift
Game 1: There was a matchup error and this guy got switched to play against me and I could hear him groaning, he had watched my humans matchup heh heh, I keep a turn 1 rabble off of a mutavault on the draw, and after he plays a fetch I proceed to do just that, when he plays turn 2 sakura tribe elder I knew what was up. He blocks my rabble turn 2 and prevents me from the turn 3 kill. On my turn 4 however I see that he’s tapped out at 7 lands and can EASILY kill me if he has shapeshift, so instead of playing a second rabble I make the smart plays and cast blood moon to which he scoops muttering something about 38 damage next turn or something.
Sideboard: He’s combo so I’m prison again. Out: Anger Slag. In: Torpor Orb Witchbane Orb.
Game 2: chalice on 1 to prevent nature’s claim, blood moon bridge Witchbane orb, he can’t find his one of fracturing gust and I kill him with the 8 tokens that I hadn’t let attack bc of bridge.
Win 2-0
Some final thoughts, I’d never been big on Pia and Kiran, but it was the only reason I beat humans, it’s a sweet card. I have swapped the sideboard abrade for Dire Fleet daredevil, but I’m not sure if that’s correct yet, scab clan seems ok early game but bad late game when you can’t get the counter on him. Slag Anger split was nice for humans matchup, especially since he named Anger with meddling mage strictly based off me playing a mountain. Determining my role in each game helps a LOT, and I will definitely continue to do so. Thank you for reading sons and daughters of fire, I would appreciate any and all advice. Sorry for the long report haha
Preachin' It, Rev! There's always gonna be some salty jibber jabber pooh-poohing Pyro Prison, but it rarely gets on my tits. Why, because it's not personal. It's just a deck that kicked some ass that round. This is nothing unique to mountainfolk. You think Tron players don't hear 'Tron Sucks and is ruining Modern' every other tournament? How about going back a few years to Eldrazi Winter OR Splinter Twin OR Birthing Pod??? Those pilots would get berated mercilessly! I know, because I got a sharp tongue, and I'm not afraid to let the expletives fly.
As for Dire Fleet Daredevil against Storm, Poptatz? Not my first go-to answer, but it could steal out their Grapeshot. But, overall, DFD is sorcery speed and can't attack through a Baral, so probably a pass.
It is FNM tonight! Who's gonna be chucking fire out there? My build from last Saturday's MTGO Classic will have to be shelved for the weekend, as I'm hosting my seasonal Magilympics tomorrow where a bunch of old buddies come over at noon and play EDH, Tiny Leaders, 2-headed giant, and draft a box of M25 (not the best set due to sorting -- hmmm, maybe crack an eternal masters box instead and make M25 packs prizes for the events) until midnight.
Nevertheless, let's put eyes on the progressions of the state of affairs of Trash Dragons in the last 6 days. Gotta say that Revenged put it very well in his deck summation after scoring a 5-0 finish in a friendly league with it.
Quote from Revenged »
Aaaanyway. About the deck and the cards. I must say I didn't really miss the Eidolons or the Scabbies at all. I know - my wins against UW were quite lucky, but hey, that's what you need right? The issues with those is that they don't actually win you the game against Control. They are great with Combo (and Burn) but Control...uhh not really.
A Moon and a Rabble is where it's at. Protected by a Chalice, that is. It's a bit of a tall order, but what can you do. I'd rather Moon them and wait for a threat - any will do! Even a Monkey will do the job. So - I do understand the rationale behind leaving them behind altogether, to clear up space for additional SB cards. I like this - a lot.
Shinka is spicy. It's an extremely corner case a card (only Piran?? Haz is useless in 99% of scenarios) but whatever. The deck isn't running Koth so who cares. Normally I also don't like 21 lands (I strongly believe you need more) but here 11 Rituals and 3 Sarkhans accompanied by 2 Avaricious do wonders. This will enable a powered-out lockpiece almost always - and Sarkhan and The Pet will take care of digging into more. This is a completely new angle in PP - one that's been missing a long time. Love it.
The rest of the deck is quite straightforward - freeing up SB slots enables more answers. Toolbox is a very good approach I think. It leaves a lot of room to have an answer to pretty much anything. Obviously I didn't need even half of that stuff in my matches - but that's fine! I didn't feel I was lacking anything either.
Agree. The idea of this Pyro Prison variant is to Go Over the Top of the Opponent. You should be able to identify what your opponent is on in a single turn - you only get 1, and sometimes none if you're on the play. But, you gotta act, and it's possible to throw away your whole game with a single misplay. Particularly in Trash Dragons.
It is one of the hardest variant of Pyro Prison out there, because you are forced to make more decisions earlier in the game than ever: Turn 1 Moon/Sarkhan/Chalice or double-down into a Chandra? And, mulligans get more difficult to judge. BUT, back to the point of identification. Once you know what your opponent is doing, then you might be tempted to fire out an early dragon & suffer a tossed hand of a couple cards which are simply a bad matchup in search of, say, an ensnaring bridge. This is where all-in committal and massive resource drains become more of a 'Combo Deck' and less of a 'Control Deck'.
Explosive versus Consistent. The Stock List will give you more consistency. For this next evolution of TD, I've added a little more consistency from the Stock List: Removal - both Spot and Sweeper. One of each: Abrade, Walking Ballista, and Anger of the Gods. Woah, Anger in the main, not Slagstorm? These days. If you're running online? Yup. I estimated the occurrence of recurring creatures in the meta to be about 15% about a month ago, so I could justify Slagstorm/Sweltering Suns. Not anymore.
Anger of the Gods - Think of it this way: if you are pinned to the wall with a pinched bridge, a hellbent hand, and happen to draw into an Anger of the Gods. Either it is a godsend against a swarm of 1/powered weenies or you drew a bricked card that might be tossed to Sarkhan/Hazoret/Dragon. It's more rare that the extra 3 damage upstairs with a slagstorm is going to put your game into the win column, as we are Not a bolt deck. AND, it's not like your opponent assembled a fleet of Yotian Soldiers against your growing horde of Rabblemaster tokens - forcing you to blow away your board while your opponent's army stands firm.
What else? Maindeck, I'm experimenting with swapping out 1 avaricious dragon for a like-wise discard outlet: Hazoret the Fervent. This causes a wrinkle though. Without the duo of Dragons PLUS the addition of a dedicated 'shields-up' transitional sideboard, do I now have to call this deck Trash Turtle?
The Toolbox sideboard is still there, but now it's much more slanted to stop graveyard shenanigans, and I've let (3) devils back into the (15) to provide pressure against Combo/Control. I was concerned about the lack of 'swords' in my sideboard. Oh, I forgot to mention. There's a Leyline of the Void too. Dev talked about salt? Slam a Leyline on Turn 0 against B/R Hollow One, Bridge-Vengevine, Dredge, Living End, Reanimator or KCI and see what happens. No, actually, I want to see what happens. Please record it.
The Voice || Yay-Uh!
It's an underrated rummage machine offering card-parity dig in a color that has very few options for tutor and looting - Tormenting Voice. Congratulations on your tournament wins with the deck, Natehill, and I like your alterations. The list read very succinctly in synergies, and offers a ton of adaptability in the use of 1-ofs throughout the (75).
THOUGHTS Chandra, Flamecaller had to go. Wise. The splits on sweeper spells in the main make sense, but you're also probably right when you suggest 2 angers in the SB instead of maintaining the split. When using (3) T. Voice, the Chandra, ToD count Also being restricted to (3) makes a lot of sense. What's better than landing a Chandra, +1 for 2R and then Tormenting Voice away a redundant Chandra?
The land count for red seems low. Not just mountains due to Koth, but the amount of red generation. You're at fifteen. I generally want to be at 17, especially when early Eidolons become a critical game 2 play. I agree on shaving the Buried Ruin which is a bummer as I love that land in games 2/3 when you can retrieve critical answer cards from the bin. Maybe, one day we'll get our own Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Echoing my lead to utilize a slightly lowered count on Ritual effects is also a smart balance as T. Voice acts as 'Hand Ritual' in its ability to groom. Ha. That's a new one: 'A Hand Grooming Ritual = Tormenting Voice'. Lastly, the Sideboard. It looks superb. You mention the abrade might want to go. Agree again! I tried it in the side in a recent deck, and it felt so limited as a sideboard resource selection: 1-for-1 spell...really dinky. So, I moved it to the main, and added a card with real punch, like Leyline of the Void to the SB. Hey! Yet another good use of Tormenting Voice as it can trade in a later drawn Leyline into some good stuff.
Otherwise, you're using the mechanics of the 'toolbox' approach really well, as evidenced by your go-wide approach to deck design. Tormenting Voice, and now Sarkhan, Fireblood offer outlets for cycling that can ditch the bricks and nab the silver bullets. Good Luck with scoring that 4th Chalice, and congrats again - nice to see The Voice get taken to the next level.
I’ve now swapped Buried Ruin for a mountain, which also makes me sad because when Ruin is good it’s GREAT and sometimes is your only option. Double Anger in the side instead of the split makes sense, and it’s exactly what my storm friend said. And I’ve since swapped the sideboard abrade for dire fleet daredevil but I like the idea of leyline of the void especially with T. Voice, maybe useful for future testing? Both cards are decent against Jund, but leyline hits a bigger variety of decks. Furthermore I haven’t tested Sarkhan but maybe he’d be what I want since I love Voice so much, I do love the efficiency I get with Voice though. Definitely something to keep in mind.
I’ve been looking at all these amazing finishes with the deck and looking at other lists that are knocking down tournaments and I’ve been wondering; are our bad matchups preventing this deck from being great?
We have even/good/great matchups against so much of the playing field, but our bad matchups seem SO bad.
Russ is stressing out about Goyf in Jund, I keep getting rolled over by people who can’t let go of E-Tron, and decks like Grishoalbrand and BlueMoon also seem very unfavorable.
I’ve also wondered how this deck can get published so many times while still straddling the line between under-the-radar and fringe. Even when it does get a nod in articles from the pros it never seems like it’s acknowledged as the real deal.
Do any of the Tier 1 decks (KCI, Humans, Hollow One, Jeskai, Jund, Affinity, etc.) have matchups as ‘unwinnable’ as ours, and if not, is that why everyone still seems kind of deaf to Pyro Prison? They can’t even remember the name...
Not trying to be dramatic; I’m tragically insecure, especially when it comes to Modern. I’m proud to be waving this flag, and I would never let anyone say this is a bad deck.
It just concerns me that if a bad matchup meets us in the Top-8 we’re just not gonna make 1st.
Thoughts? Comfort? Reassurance?
I have not posted in some time, mainly due some sickness stuff this week, but also I've narrowed my responses to Discord for a bit of time, albeit I get pings on Reddit, Discord, and even got a ping on Facebook (that one I shut down quickly), Tweet me, I'm happy to Tweet back
Skrim you bring up many important things. When analysis of a deck happens a lot of people, the term is known as 'net deck', find a deck that is pretty sweet and play it. There is nothing wrong with this. Many of those people will jam a deck for several FNM's and eventually want to move on. That is their choice, and the beauty of Magic as a whole. Even tonight I was personally running Teferi Pool in some practice games, not because it is Tier, but because I believe the "Core" of UWx decks needs better understanding, so I ran a low key version and... well... I went 3-2, winning out against some very tier decks and having a blast, by the way it could have been 4-1 if my Serum visions and Land were swapped in a game against one of the friendliest Tron players.
I digress.
I read an article a long time ago about Death and Taxes in Legacy. It was during a small spike where the deck was doing well, but why was it doing well? It was doing well by a select few Pilots (different then net deckers in my opinion) that had understood the elements of the Meta which needed to be attacked. So, what are we? "Pyro Prison: The Pre-board" is what I like to call it. What does this mean?
All decks have sideboards, there is technically no such thing as 'pre-boarding'
Seeing the Top Meta Share usually consisting of the top 10 - 15 decks from meta game breakdowns at large tournaments and the challenges on saturdays gives you an idea outside the "Core 50ish cards" what are my 10 cards I need to have MAIN to hit the highest % of Meta Share.
Why does this differ then other decks? Most decks will have a 'core 60' and play with maybe 1 - 4 slots of flexibility. The "Sideboard" is where you see people write lengthy articles about "How do you sideboard against ____ matchup." - The irony with our deck, is that I tell you what Meta share you will run into less and here is the 10 card swap to "Pivot" the deck.
Lastly: Pivot decks get a lot of things like "You can't decide a main gameplan" or "The deck is unfocused." - I can't tell you how many head turns I get after I run Rabblemaster out and follow it with Anger the next turn cause my opponent dumped 3 creatures.
So where does that leave us? There are not a lot of us out there at the moment, but, in an ironic sense of the word "Red Prison" archetype recently took enough Meta share that it was pulled out from "Other Decks" and given a 1% meta share.
I've rambled, my thoughts are unfocused, but I'll leave you with this:
These decks are known, I don't think we would dispute this:
Bogles
Elves
Merfolk
Living End
Infect
Abzan (Reid Duke I'm looking at you)
These decks all ranged from 2.1% - 1.0% meta share (Others was 12.4%)
Your top represented deck was Mardu Pyromancer at 8.9%
These percentages are Day 1
At the beginning of 2018 I would argue that "RW Prison" was the "Red Prison Deck of Choice" with the idea being you play Ghostly, Ajani Planeswalker, Blood Moon, etc. The manabase was awkward.
Since then we've had articles, let me grab what I gave to the mods to help elevate us to established:
Will the deck always be able to take down a tournament, absolutely not. Didn't Jund just disappear for several GPs and is back, certainly happens. I think there is a place for a Prison deck. We offer the 4th archetype but yet we slot into two other archetypes. We are Prison, but we are Aggro, and we are Control. And if you want those sparks from time to time... who doesn't mind comboing out Chandra on T1 with Chalice on 1 backup?
Yo, first time poster long time lurker. I just went 3-0 with the below build. First go trying out Sarkhan, literally got him that day, and he was super dope. My sideboarding wasn’t terribly interesting so I didn’t include much discussion of it here.
Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guides
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Magus of the Moon
Planeswalkers
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Sarkhan, Fireblood
Artifacts
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Damping Matrix
1 Spellskite
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Torpor Orb
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Match 1 Death and Taxes
Game 1
His t1 he plays Horizon Canopy into Thraben Inspector. I land a t2 blood moon and he only draws into non-basics like Cavern of Souls the rest of the game. I get there handedly with Rabblemaster.
Game 2
Based on G1 I assume he’s on a build of Humans (Canopy and Thraben suggest D&T, but Cavern suggests Humans) so I keep a hand that powers out Blood Moon on my t1 on the draw with a beginning of game Gemstone Caverns and t1 ritual. This is where I find out he is actually running Death and Taxes with Cavern and a ton of Plains. I get another Rabblemaster down but he’s able to keep me in check with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Kor Firewalker. Thalia prevents me from landing Koth where I’m stuck on four lands, and Restoration Angel closes it out.
Game 3
This is the match where I see how ridiculous Sarkhan can be. I side out Magus of the Moon and two Blood Moons for three Anger of the Gods. This game was very grindy where he gets out an Aether Vial t1, and I follow up with Chalice of the Voids on my t1 and t2. My opponent doesn’t understand the Vial interaction with Chalice and doesn’t use his Vial to cast 1 or 2 drops and ticks his Vial up to 3. I didn’t realize he didn’t understand the interaction until my buddy stops by to watch and starts talking about how Vial gets through Chalice and my opponent is like awwwwww snap! I’m slightly annoyed at this but keep on. Opponent plays Leonin Arbiter and swings. I get down Rabblemaster and swing with the token. He flashes in Blade Splicer and takes care of the token. He swings again with the Golem token and Arbiter. My turn I swing again with a Goblin token and he Vials in another Blade Splicer. I Anger of the Gods and clear the board. I then play Sarkhan and chip in with Mutavault. Opponent is stuck on three lands for awhile and can’t find any 3-drops to cast. Sarkhan loots his way to an ultimate with a mess of dragons and I take the match.
Match 2 Grixis Death's Shadow
Game 1
This was the dumbest game I’ve played in awhile. I’m on the draw and get a Gemstone Caverns out at the beginning of the game and will be able to ritual a Rabblemaster out t1. He Inquisitions my Rabblemaster. I get a Chalice on 1. I chip in at him with a Mutavault for awhile until it gets Terminated. He swings Snapcaster beats until it gets Abraded. I flood out and he durdles with no threats while he Thought Scours two Gurmag Anglers into his yard. He gets down to 1 life from shocking, cycling Street Wraiths, and other Death Shadow things in addition to my random Ramunap Ruins pings. He scoops with about 15 cards left in his deck. My next draw would have been a Ruins to close it out.
Game 2
Opponent gets stuck on 1 basic swamp for awhile, and I play a t1 Chalice on 1 and a t3 Chalice on 0 to prevent him from landing a Mishra’s Bauble to dig for lands. I jam Sarkhan, Chandra, and Koth for the W. It was pretty sick to see all the planeswalkers having an ice-cream party at the expense of Death’s Shadow.
Match 3 KCI
Game 1
I’m on the draw with Gemstone Caverns, so I pitch an Abrade. He plays Darksteel Citadel and Pyrite Spellbomb. At this point I’m thinking woof, GGs since the last time I played KCI I was destroyed and pitching the Abrade felt pretty bad. I t1 a Chalice on 1. He plays an Engineered Explosives on 0. My t2 I play Rabblemaster. He sets off EE to get rid of Chalice and my Goblin token. He durdles around doing KCI things t3. I land a Koth, untap a mountain and start swinging with mountain men and goblins. He can’t loop his way out of the onslaught and its on to game 2.
Game 2
I again get a Gemstone Caverns in my opening hand on the draw. I t2 Chalice on 1 but he can’t find EE this time.He tries to Nature’s Claim Chalice hoping I’ll miss the trigger but I don’t, so he has to suck it.I Koth on t3 with a ritual, play t4 Chandra +1 for two red mana into a Eidolon of the Great Revel, then t5 Hazoret the Fervent. His t6 he mucks around with KCI and a Scrap Trawler for a bit, tries to cast Ancient Stirrings but has to suck it again and scoops.
This was the second time I played against KCI. I still don’t know what I’m doing, but I feel better about doing it. I sided in 4 Eidolons, which is a good choice, and 2 Grafdigger’s Cages, which is a terrible choice because it doesn’t do anything. This was reminiscent of my previous KCI match where I sided in Damping Matrix not realizing that almost all the artifact activated abilities in KCI are mana abilities.
Wrap-Up
I played a previous build that had 2 Trinispheres and 2 Anger of the Gods mainboard. I swapped those out for the 2 Sarkhans, a Pia and Kiran, and another Pyretic Ritual. I really enjoyed the looting from Sarkhan and consistent explosive hands with another Ritual. I’m going to run a similar version at a PPTQ tomorrow (oh snap! I guess today, it is getting late!). I was planning on doing a trashier dragons build, but I think I’ll stick with what worked. Comments and suggestions welcome!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
1. This deck is EXTREMELY hard to play. It takes a lot of practice and attention to detail to play this type of strategy.
2. Jund is hard because all their removal can hit EVERYTHING we play. Nothing is safe when you play against jund. So, when nothing is safe and they play 6/7 dudes, that's a problem.
3. Eldrazi Tron is the same thing, but different. they just don't care about our lock pieces. lots of ways to get that one colorless mana, chalice sucks, and they can win from behind a bridge as easily as we can.
4. Those other decks have a better overall strategy than we do. They have bad matches, but those bad matches are not as bad as our bad matches.
This deck generates power from playing super powerful effects ahead of curve. It doesn't do a good job with card selection and can lose to itself if you draw lock pieces in a match where they're useless. How many games are lost because you keep a two bridge hand, think your great, then the opponent goes Urza's mine, Expedition map....you just took a mulligan to 5 and didn't even realize it. Or how about when you power out a blood moon on the fitst turn, then your opponent plays a land, burning inquiry, and puts a 4/4 in play. You spend three cards and literally did nothing to help win that game.
That's the negative and it's enough to drive people away from this deck. It doesn't have a fast clock most of the time, It's lock pieces are sometimes irrelevant, and there's very little way to generate any sort of card selection to try to find the right cards for the right match. Thats why the "pros" don't pick this up.
And it's their loss. This deck is busted once you learn to play it right. There are a lot of decks that just fold to a turn one/two blood moon. turn one rabblemaster wins games on it's own. Sarkhan fixes the problem of drawing bridges vs control or drawing that 2nd blood moon. Chalice stops a lot of what's happening in modern today. As long as you identify your role correctly, you'll be good. Of the decks you mentioned, Jund is the only one that I don't want to see across from me. I'm good with facing everything else. And hollow-one/humans, and tron help keep jund at bay. I'm leaving jund to those decks. Would it be nice to be able to deal with Goyf? Absolutely. But I'm not willing to make major concessions to be able to win vs jund when no matter what we do, jund is still going to be a bad match. We are better off just trying to dodge jund altogether and if we get paired up against it, do our best, take out lumps, and move on.
Russ
I almost always bring in a spellskite for this exact reason. it's also stops ravager's modular ability, EVERYTHING from bogles and infect, and can absorn both parts of K-command. It also makes bolts, helixes, right bolts, o-ring, d-sphere, laughably bad. of those you mentioned, skite is the one you want. I run one in the board.
Russ, why not dire fleet daredevil? If the Jund opponent runs out fatal push or abrupt decay daredevil is a 3-4 mana answer for goyf that leaves behind a body that can block Bloodbraid Elf.
Also 4-0 in a 40 person FNM last night! Tournament reporter coming in soon!
If Dire Fleet was good in other matches, I'd say yes, 100%. Problem is that it's just too narrow. What else is it good against? remember, we are not going to cards advantage in this deck, so the incremental advantage we get doesn't really matter here. If you can give me three decks it's amazing vs, I'm in.
I take at least one out vs burn. Basically, in the matches where you die by spending three mana and not doing anything. Burn and infect come to mind.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/control/663335-pyro-prison-goblinized-mono-red-control-the?comment=2117
Dire Fleet Daredevil comes in against the following decks:
Before, I go any further, Revenged! You magnificent son of a gun. That's one hell of a write-up on game theory as it applies to 'soft-lock prison' strategy. I did just touch up the Official Primer, and may have to make room to tag that into the Strategy Guide.
Ha! to Gelati - all's forgiven. And, welcome to Wiblo! As for shoring up defenses of our locks, yup - look to Spellskite.
Since people are talking deeply on the topic of Deck Crafting, I'll share yet another deck name change that I introduced - basically to myself as a tee-hee inside joke. BUT, I know the kin will get a laugh out of it as well. So, Trash Dragons, when first drafted, kept that sideboard of (4) Eidolon and (2) Scab-clan Berserker. Then, I dropped all of the ground troops out of the (15), and opted for an olde-style 'toolbox' approach.
What's that mean? So, throw away all of the creatures AND all of the 1-for-1 removal spells (keep a few Anger of the Gods), and add total lockdown cards that allow for a turtle up: Grafdiggers/Torpor/Damping Matrix-Sphere/Witchbane. In the struggle for choosing Spear OR Shield, I'm kind of doing both by keeping the Avaricious Dragons. Huh. Well, this calls for a new name!
A turtle down - dragon attack hybrid. Now, what could that be? Well, for those of you who are fans of vintage Godzilla, you are already ahead of me on this Kaiju.
Oh, NO!!!! Up in the sky, it's Trash Gamera!
With the rise of kci and how prevalent affinity is when playing paper magic, I like two spree. I was originally on the 1/1 spree/abrade plan until kci showed up. Now 2 spree until wizards does something about kci....if they ever do.
Yeah, I was thinking 2nd cage myself. It's my least used sidebaord card, but it's the one you need the most in the matches where you need it ...Coco, bant spirits, dredge, and elves are all really hard and the cage helps so much in those matches.
Bears make money, bulls make money, but pigs get slaughtered.
I don't know how often any of you catch flak or hate for being the Blood Moon deck. I know I've read previously that folks have experienced hostility, and I get it too, online and in paper [I forget who posted it but someone was once like "I went outside to hit my weed pen and I heard people hating on my Blood Moon deck and it made me feel less than good." Hah. I remember thinking, why you corny postin' bout ya bud business haha, but on a more serious note, I felt it too]. I'm newer to modern... I played in Stronghold and Tempest when I was just a wee Rev, but grew away from the game. I remember wrecking my neighborhood Magic circuit, and loving it. I knew I had that spike sort of mentality when I wouldn't let my little brothers use their lands if they forgot to untap them at the beginning of their turn. They held me to the same standards hey hey easy easy. But to bring it back, coming into the game I didn't realize how many troll-type, salty-type cats there can honestly be. Its cool though, it adds to the sweet nectar of victory of course, whatever, you can try to rules lawyer me about the type of die we roll before the match, fine, we'll use a 3,000 sided die because it has the highest chance of producing random results, jesus are you serious!? I've naively dove into the most competitive scenes possible and experienced stuff I couldn't spout from my craftiest nozzle.
I thought people would just be like oh cool deck good match, thanks for playing, have a nice day, shake hands, here's a few tips, high fives.... Then... I lost a match... and felt the salt... then I lost on Turn 2... then I met Karn... and Ugin... and Griselbrand... and Grapeshot... and Mox Opal... and was like whoa there's broken things happening everywhere - cool. I want to do my own broken thing. I want to punish all these greedy decks that do broken things. How can I do that?
Greedy mana base - Blood Moon. Cheap obese creates - Bridge. Insanely low average CMC - Chalice. These tools are amazing. They punish the hell out of so many decks. You spent $500 on your mana base and for $80 I turned it to $5.00. So I heard chatter last night and maybe I'm not a calloused vet like some folks are. Honestly if I turn 1 Blood Moon someone on the Play and they have all fetches and scoop after I drop Chandra 5 turns later - I feel a little bad. But breh, that's what I signed up for. If I could play a card that says "YOU LOSE!" on turn 1 every game, yes, I would play it, and you likely would too. We are all doing broken things, and the mountainfolk around here, are Punishers. We're not here to draw our deck, or cast 50 spells, or play a bunch of creatures, we're here to punish your broken strategy.
And so that's what I told them. Someone was saying something like oh that's a wack deck or something and I said your just salty cause I'm the Punisher. That's it. IDK the genesis of all this greed, probably just a fall out of competitive spirit, but it is what it is. People talk about fair, unfair, w/e. Its all out there. You can play what you want. But I'm going to play Pyro Prison, because I bet with all likelihood that you're doing something greedy that I can punish you for.
On the data side, I lost my 2 matches because I dropped a game where I kept a hand with 1 land - that's all. I beat Jeskai Control Round 1 2-0, Chandra T1 and Moon T1. Lost to Spirits 1-2, couldn't cast my hand to get behind Bridge. Lost to Jund 1-2 couldn't cast my hand to get behind Bridge, he showed 2 Decays after, so I was smoked either way.
I kept strong hands in all my games but 2. I've made the "I'm not keeping a one-lander" rule, and broken it so many times, with success, that I have to revisit it [Turn 1 Chandra, uptick into Chalice or uptick to Ritual into a Moon is the nuts isn't it?]. I think its about having 2 or more mana guaranteed on T2 and what's mana on T3 look like? I've learned that a lot of magic is, damn I'm one land away, but I think in our deck its so crucial to have broken mana early. I'm going to start taking a harder look at T2 and T3 mana when I fan open.
Sorry for the long winded social post, but I hope that next time someone throws salt your Blood Moon way you recognize they fear The Punisher.
4x Ensnaring bridge
4x Blood moon
3x Chalice of the Void
Planeswalkers 4
3x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Koth of the Hammer
Creatures 8
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
1x Scab-Clan Beeserker
1x Hazoret the Fervent
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Walking Ballista
Removal 5
2x Abrade
1x Slagstorm
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Ratchet Bomb
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Desperate Ritual
3x Tormenting Voice
Lands 21
3x Ramunap Ruins
3x Gemstone Caverns
1x Mutavault
1x Buried Ruin
1x Scavenger Grounds
12x Mountain
3x Eidolon of the Great Revel
1x Slagstorm
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Abrade
1x Torpor Orb
1x Witchbane orb
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Damping Matrix
1x Damping Sphere
1x Spellskite
2x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Shattering Spree
Now some logic about my card choice before I jump in.
The Slagstorm Anger split main and side is due to me thinking I want two sweepers but I don’t want two angers, but I know anger is great, and Ray said when it’s not great you can discard it to T. voice, but if I’m stuck with two game 1 it’s gonna suck, so I did the split in main, and split in side. It is possible that I should just have the sideboard slag be an anger, but I figured if I face humans I’d be happy I had an even split.
Scabby boy main: Ray had Eidolon main and I figured game one I’d rather not deal damage to myself as much in the blind. I did test this slot with Eidolon before and it was ok.
Ratchet bomb: it’s just my fourth chalice... I’ll get it eventually...
Koth: I didn’t like 6 mana Chandra in testing, she seems both harder to cast and strictly worse than her 4 mana counterpart, so I swapped her to koth, even with 12 mountains... In testing I’ve had a minimum of one mountain every time I cast him, but I should probably swap Buried Ruin to mountain 13
I’ve been reading and think about what Russ (and others) have been preaching for a long time about knowing your role in a matchup, so for the first time I kept that in mind during the event and sideboarded accordingly.
Round 1: Infect
Game 1: I mulled to 6 and kept a decent aggro hand with rabblemaster and an abrade to kill a blocker, he fetches breeding pool and plays glistner elf, turn two I play Rabble, I kill elf and he eventually kills me with a one shot from Inkmoth
Sideboard: I’m the control player against infect Ez Pz. Out: 4x rabble 1x koth 1x hazoret 1x T. voice. In: 3x Eidolon 1x Anger 1x Slag 1x Spellskite 1x abrade
Game 2: I haven’t shown any lock pieces so he really doesn’t know what I’m doing, he mulls to 4... I continue to hold lock pieces because after Eidolon and mutavault start beating in I already have it in the bag.
Game 3: turn 2 skite, abrades, sweepers, then the lock pieces come down and it’s game, he did punt in his defense by trying to target my skite with vines of vastwood so I couldn’t redirect... but that’s not how it works.
Win 2-1
Round 2: Storm
Game 1: So this is a friend of mine, and we kind of already knew how the games would go, especially after sideboarding. I start with a hand that’s basically a quick hazoret and lands, I decided to keep strictly because I had Scavenger Grounds. I get Hazzy out turn 2 and start discarding lands at his endsteps while also keeping the blowing the yards activation up, I eventually start to swing in, at this point I still have only draw lands but I wasn’t to worried, and when I got him to a virtual 1 and I feel like I have the game in the bag, he rituals a bunch, grapeshot remand same grapeshot second grapeshot, swings with goblin electromancer past my tapped Hazoret and deals exactsies, needless to say my jaw was dropped.
Sideboard: Since this is a combo deck I am control, but control in the way that I’m just trying to make him lose more than I’m actively trying to win. Out: 4x ensnaring bridge 4x Blood moon 1x Koth. In: 3x Eidolon 1x Damping Sphere 1x Witchbane orb 2x grafdiggers 1x Slagstorm 1x abrade
Game 2: grafdiggers turn 1 with Eidolon and rabble wins the game
Game 3: very grindy matchup, he played gifts and he assured me after I picked that I was doing the correct piles in the situation, eidolons and chalice take turns being on the board and being in my hand, it’s honestly a very close and very fun game but I pull it out in the end.
Win 2-1
Round 3: Humans
Game 1: Backstory, I’ve played at this game store only 1 time before, and I happened to play against this guy, so he already knows what I’m on and he’s physically sweating. Game 1 starts with aether vial that I abrade, and freebooter takes my moon. He starts playing a lot of creatures and eventually gets a malcontent and phantasmal image malcontent to drain me to 1, I don’t remember the exact board, but I do know that I used the parents to throw thopters at thalias, and that the mom and dad were the only reason I had stayed alive even this long. I had some weird bridge math, and for some reason I added it up and the only way I could survive was if my chandra ticked up and revealed abrade, it did that and killed the freebooter that had me dead next turn, and with my goblin chump blocks I was able to get empty handed with moon and bridge on the board at 1 life. After an anger he scooped it up
Sideboard: I am definitely control in this matchup. Out 4x rabbles. In 1x slag 1x anger 1x abrade 1x torpor orb
Game 2: I get a koth down and get to ultimate status, but decided not to because he wasn’t attacking koth and I only had 1 mountain, so I couldn’t even ping his creatures (reasons not to play koth/have more mountains)
If I had another mountain instead of my 3 Ramunap ruins, I could’ve killed meddling mage naming moon and then the freebooter that had my moon underneath it. He eventually kills Koth and me.
Game 3: sweepers and lock pieces fall out of my hands and onto the board, easyish win.
Win 2-1
Round 4: Titan Shift
Game 1: There was a matchup error and this guy got switched to play against me and I could hear him groaning, he had watched my humans matchup heh heh, I keep a turn 1 rabble off of a mutavault on the draw, and after he plays a fetch I proceed to do just that, when he plays turn 2 sakura tribe elder I knew what was up. He blocks my rabble turn 2 and prevents me from the turn 3 kill. On my turn 4 however I see that he’s tapped out at 7 lands and can EASILY kill me if he has shapeshift, so instead of playing a second rabble I make the smart plays and cast blood moon to which he scoops muttering something about 38 damage next turn or something.
Sideboard: He’s combo so I’m prison again. Out: Anger Slag. In: Torpor Orb Witchbane Orb.
Game 2: chalice on 1 to prevent nature’s claim, blood moon bridge Witchbane orb, he can’t find his one of fracturing gust and I kill him with the 8 tokens that I hadn’t let attack bc of bridge.
Win 2-0
Some final thoughts, I’d never been big on Pia and Kiran, but it was the only reason I beat humans, it’s a sweet card. I have swapped the sideboard abrade for Dire Fleet daredevil, but I’m not sure if that’s correct yet, scab clan seems ok early game but bad late game when you can’t get the counter on him. Slag Anger split was nice for humans matchup, especially since he named Anger with meddling mage strictly based off me playing a mountain. Determining my role in each game helps a LOT, and I will definitely continue to do so. Thank you for reading sons and daughters of fire, I would appreciate any and all advice. Sorry for the long report haha
As for Dire Fleet Daredevil against Storm, Poptatz? Not my first go-to answer, but it could steal out their Grapeshot. But, overall, DFD is sorcery speed and can't attack through a Baral, so probably a pass.
It is FNM tonight! Who's gonna be chucking fire out there? My build from last Saturday's MTGO Classic will have to be shelved for the weekend, as I'm hosting my seasonal Magilympics tomorrow where a bunch of old buddies come over at noon and play EDH, Tiny Leaders, 2-headed giant, and draft a box of M25 (not the best set due to sorting -- hmmm, maybe crack an eternal masters box instead and make M25 packs prizes for the events) until midnight.
Nevertheless, let's put eyes on the progressions of the state of affairs of Trash Dragons in the last 6 days. Gotta say that Revenged put it very well in his deck summation after scoring a 5-0 finish in a friendly league with it.
Agree. The idea of this Pyro Prison variant is to Go Over the Top of the Opponent. You should be able to identify what your opponent is on in a single turn - you only get 1, and sometimes none if you're on the play. But, you gotta act, and it's possible to throw away your whole game with a single misplay. Particularly in Trash Dragons.
It is one of the hardest variant of Pyro Prison out there, because you are forced to make more decisions earlier in the game than ever: Turn 1 Moon/Sarkhan/Chalice or double-down into a Chandra? And, mulligans get more difficult to judge. BUT, back to the point of identification. Once you know what your opponent is doing, then you might be tempted to fire out an early dragon & suffer a tossed hand of a couple cards which are simply a bad matchup in search of, say, an ensnaring bridge. This is where all-in committal and massive resource drains become more of a 'Combo Deck' and less of a 'Control Deck'.
Explosive versus Consistent. The Stock List will give you more consistency. For this next evolution of TD, I've added a little more consistency from the Stock List: Removal - both Spot and Sweeper. One of each: Abrade, Walking Ballista, and Anger of the Gods. Woah, Anger in the main, not Slagstorm? These days. If you're running online? Yup. I estimated the occurrence of recurring creatures in the meta to be about 15% about a month ago, so I could justify Slagstorm/Sweltering Suns. Not anymore.
Anger of the Gods - Think of it this way: if you are pinned to the wall with a pinched bridge, a hellbent hand, and happen to draw into an Anger of the Gods. Either it is a godsend against a swarm of 1/powered weenies or you drew a bricked card that might be tossed to Sarkhan/Hazoret/Dragon. It's more rare that the extra 3 damage upstairs with a slagstorm is going to put your game into the win column, as we are Not a bolt deck. AND, it's not like your opponent assembled a fleet of Yotian Soldiers against your growing horde of Rabblemaster tokens - forcing you to blow away your board while your opponent's army stands firm.
What else? Maindeck, I'm experimenting with swapping out 1 avaricious dragon for a like-wise discard outlet: Hazoret the Fervent. This causes a wrinkle though. Without the duo of Dragons PLUS the addition of a dedicated 'shields-up' transitional sideboard, do I now have to call this deck Trash Turtle?
The Toolbox sideboard is still there, but now it's much more slanted to stop graveyard shenanigans, and I've let (3) devils back into the (15) to provide pressure against Combo/Control. I was concerned about the lack of 'swords' in my sideboard. Oh, I forgot to mention. There's a Leyline of the Void too. Dev talked about salt? Slam a Leyline on Turn 0 against B/R Hollow One, Bridge-Vengevine, Dredge, Living End, Reanimator or KCI and see what happens. No, actually, I want to see what happens. Please record it.
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
Creatures (8)
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Avaricious Dragon
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Removal (3)
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Abrade
1 Walking Ballista
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Sarkhan, Fireblood
Mana Accelerators (10)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Pyretic Ritual
3 (+) Gemstone Caverns
Lands (21)
12 Mountains
3 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ramunap Ruins
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Damping Matrix
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Torpor Orb
1 Spellskite
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Shattering Spree
1 Leyline of the Void
It's an underrated rummage machine offering card-parity dig in a color that has very few options for tutor and looting - Tormenting Voice. Congratulations on your tournament wins with the deck, Natehill, and I like your alterations. The list read very succinctly in synergies, and offers a ton of adaptability in the use of 1-ofs throughout the (75).
THOUGHTS
Chandra, Flamecaller had to go. Wise. The splits on sweeper spells in the main make sense, but you're also probably right when you suggest 2 angers in the SB instead of maintaining the split. When using (3) T. Voice, the Chandra, ToD count Also being restricted to (3) makes a lot of sense. What's better than landing a Chandra, +1 for 2R and then Tormenting Voice away a redundant Chandra?
The land count for red seems low. Not just mountains due to Koth, but the amount of red generation. You're at fifteen. I generally want to be at 17, especially when early Eidolons become a critical game 2 play. I agree on shaving the Buried Ruin which is a bummer as I love that land in games 2/3 when you can retrieve critical answer cards from the bin. Maybe, one day we'll get our own Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Echoing my lead to utilize a slightly lowered count on Ritual effects is also a smart balance as T. Voice acts as 'Hand Ritual' in its ability to groom. Ha. That's a new one: 'A Hand Grooming Ritual = Tormenting Voice'. Lastly, the Sideboard. It looks superb. You mention the abrade might want to go. Agree again! I tried it in the side in a recent deck, and it felt so limited as a sideboard resource selection: 1-for-1 spell...really dinky. So, I moved it to the main, and added a card with real punch, like Leyline of the Void to the SB. Hey! Yet another good use of Tormenting Voice as it can trade in a later drawn Leyline into some good stuff.
Otherwise, you're using the mechanics of the 'toolbox' approach really well, as evidenced by your go-wide approach to deck design. Tormenting Voice, and now Sarkhan, Fireblood offer outlets for cycling that can ditch the bricks and nab the silver bullets. Good Luck with scoring that 4th Chalice, and congrats again - nice to see The Voice get taken to the next level.
I have not posted in some time, mainly due some sickness stuff this week, but also I've narrowed my responses to Discord for a bit of time, albeit I get pings on Reddit, Discord, and even got a ping on Facebook (that one I shut down quickly), Tweet me, I'm happy to Tweet back
Skrim you bring up many important things. When analysis of a deck happens a lot of people, the term is known as 'net deck', find a deck that is pretty sweet and play it. There is nothing wrong with this. Many of those people will jam a deck for several FNM's and eventually want to move on. That is their choice, and the beauty of Magic as a whole. Even tonight I was personally running Teferi Pool in some practice games, not because it is Tier, but because I believe the "Core" of UWx decks needs better understanding, so I ran a low key version and... well... I went 3-2, winning out against some very tier decks and having a blast, by the way it could have been 4-1 if my Serum visions and Land were swapped in a game against one of the friendliest Tron players.
I digress.
I read an article a long time ago about Death and Taxes in Legacy. It was during a small spike where the deck was doing well, but why was it doing well? It was doing well by a select few Pilots (different then net deckers in my opinion) that had understood the elements of the Meta which needed to be attacked. So, what are we? "Pyro Prison: The Pre-board" is what I like to call it. What does this mean?
So where does that leave us? There are not a lot of us out there at the moment, but, in an ironic sense of the word "Red Prison" archetype recently took enough Meta share that it was pulled out from "Other Decks" and given a 1% meta share.
If you're going 'Ha, since when did you guys get mentioned? Here is the article: https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpsao18/top-stories-2018-07-08
I've rambled, my thoughts are unfocused, but I'll leave you with this:
These decks are known, I don't think we would dispute this:
These decks all ranged from 2.1% - 1.0% meta share (Others was 12.4%)
Your top represented deck was Mardu Pyromancer at 8.9%
These percentages are Day 1
At the beginning of 2018 I would argue that "RW Prison" was the "Red Prison Deck of Choice" with the idea being you play Ghostly, Ajani Planeswalker, Blood Moon, etc. The manabase was awkward.
Since then we've had articles, let me grab what I gave to the mods to help elevate us to established:
Will the deck always be able to take down a tournament, absolutely not. Didn't Jund just disappear for several GPs and is back, certainly happens. I think there is a place for a Prison deck. We offer the 4th archetype but yet we slot into two other archetypes. We are Prison, but we are Aggro, and we are Control. And if you want those sparks from time to time... who doesn't mind comboing out Chandra on T1 with Chalice on 1 backup?
Yo, first time poster long time lurker. I just went 3-0 with the below build. First go trying out Sarkhan, literally got him that day, and he was super dope. My sideboarding wasn’t terribly interesting so I didn’t include much discussion of it here.
Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guides
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Magus of the Moon
Planeswalkers
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Sarkhan, Fireblood
Artifacts
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
Instants
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Pyretic Ritual
3 Abrade
Enchantments
4 Blood Moon
Lands
1 Mutavault
3 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ramunap Ruins
13 Mountains
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Damping Matrix
1 Spellskite
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Torpor Orb
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Match 1 Death and Taxes
Game 1
His t1 he plays Horizon Canopy into Thraben Inspector. I land a t2 blood moon and he only draws into non-basics like Cavern of Souls the rest of the game. I get there handedly with Rabblemaster.
Game 2
Based on G1 I assume he’s on a build of Humans (Canopy and Thraben suggest D&T, but Cavern suggests Humans) so I keep a hand that powers out Blood Moon on my t1 on the draw with a beginning of game Gemstone Caverns and t1 ritual. This is where I find out he is actually running Death and Taxes with Cavern and a ton of Plains. I get another Rabblemaster down but he’s able to keep me in check with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Kor Firewalker. Thalia prevents me from landing Koth where I’m stuck on four lands, and Restoration Angel closes it out.
Game 3
This is the match where I see how ridiculous Sarkhan can be. I side out Magus of the Moon and two Blood Moons for three Anger of the Gods. This game was very grindy where he gets out an Aether Vial t1, and I follow up with Chalice of the Voids on my t1 and t2. My opponent doesn’t understand the Vial interaction with Chalice and doesn’t use his Vial to cast 1 or 2 drops and ticks his Vial up to 3. I didn’t realize he didn’t understand the interaction until my buddy stops by to watch and starts talking about how Vial gets through Chalice and my opponent is like awwwwww snap! I’m slightly annoyed at this but keep on. Opponent plays Leonin Arbiter and swings. I get down Rabblemaster and swing with the token. He flashes in Blade Splicer and takes care of the token. He swings again with the Golem token and Arbiter. My turn I swing again with a Goblin token and he Vials in another Blade Splicer. I Anger of the Gods and clear the board. I then play Sarkhan and chip in with Mutavault. Opponent is stuck on three lands for awhile and can’t find any 3-drops to cast. Sarkhan loots his way to an ultimate with a mess of dragons and I take the match.
Match 2 Grixis Death's Shadow
Game 1
This was the dumbest game I’ve played in awhile. I’m on the draw and get a Gemstone Caverns out at the beginning of the game and will be able to ritual a Rabblemaster out t1. He Inquisitions my Rabblemaster. I get a Chalice on 1. I chip in at him with a Mutavault for awhile until it gets Terminated. He swings Snapcaster beats until it gets Abraded. I flood out and he durdles with no threats while he Thought Scours two Gurmag Anglers into his yard. He gets down to 1 life from shocking, cycling Street Wraiths, and other Death Shadow things in addition to my random Ramunap Ruins pings. He scoops with about 15 cards left in his deck. My next draw would have been a Ruins to close it out.
Game 2
Opponent gets stuck on 1 basic swamp for awhile, and I play a t1 Chalice on 1 and a t3 Chalice on 0 to prevent him from landing a Mishra’s Bauble to dig for lands. I jam Sarkhan, Chandra, and Koth for the W. It was pretty sick to see all the planeswalkers having an ice-cream party at the expense of Death’s Shadow.
Match 3 KCI
Game 1
I’m on the draw with Gemstone Caverns, so I pitch an Abrade. He plays Darksteel Citadel and Pyrite Spellbomb. At this point I’m thinking woof, GGs since the last time I played KCI I was destroyed and pitching the Abrade felt pretty bad. I t1 a Chalice on 1. He plays an Engineered Explosives on 0. My t2 I play Rabblemaster. He sets off EE to get rid of Chalice and my Goblin token. He durdles around doing KCI things t3. I land a Koth, untap a mountain and start swinging with mountain men and goblins. He can’t loop his way out of the onslaught and its on to game 2.
Game 2
I again get a Gemstone Caverns in my opening hand on the draw. I t2 Chalice on 1 but he can’t find EE this time.He tries to Nature’s Claim Chalice hoping I’ll miss the trigger but I don’t, so he has to suck it.I Koth on t3 with a ritual, play t4 Chandra +1 for two red mana into a Eidolon of the Great Revel, then t5 Hazoret the Fervent. His t6 he mucks around with KCI and a Scrap Trawler for a bit, tries to cast Ancient Stirrings but has to suck it again and scoops.
This was the second time I played against KCI. I still don’t know what I’m doing, but I feel better about doing it. I sided in 4 Eidolons, which is a good choice, and 2 Grafdigger’s Cages, which is a terrible choice because it doesn’t do anything. This was reminiscent of my previous KCI match where I sided in Damping Matrix not realizing that almost all the artifact activated abilities in KCI are mana abilities.
Wrap-Up
I played a previous build that had 2 Trinispheres and 2 Anger of the Gods mainboard. I swapped those out for the 2 Sarkhans, a Pia and Kiran, and another Pyretic Ritual. I really enjoyed the looting from Sarkhan and consistent explosive hands with another Ritual. I’m going to run a similar version at a PPTQ tomorrow (oh snap! I guess today, it is getting late!). I was planning on doing a trashier dragons build, but I think I’ll stick with what worked. Comments and suggestions welcome!