I know I know. I haven't been feeling the lava lately man I gotta be honest. I can feel it percolating though so I think this weekend that's where I'll be at.
I just looked at R/G Eldrazi in MTGSalvation... since it had that big win, I wanted to see where the deck was at today. Also I saw that it has an "established deck" title so I wanted to see what their numbers were like. One post yesterday and one post like a week prior. I'm not knocking the deck at all, I think its cool, but I think it speaks more to the Pyro Prison community being on top of their deck and Magic in general. It was cool catchin' everyone online last night. I'll post the list I'm going to run for the weekend as soon as I get around to firming it up.
The other thing about the Comp leagues is the payout when you don't win. Most people think getting nothing for going 2-3 as a negative. This is not the case. You learn the most when the mistakes hurt a LOT. I've missed spellskite activations in the past, acknowledged the mistake and moved on. But missing a spellskite activation in the top 8 of the philly classic to get knocked out when my next opponent would have been Ross Merrium on humans? You bet your ass that's NEVER happening again. You get real good real fast when your mistakes hurt worse than getting punched in the face. Trust me, take the training wheels off and you'll fall a lot less often.
as far as lists go, I still a big fan of my list, but who isn't a fan of their own list. I will say that brewing for mtgo is very different than brewing for paper. And putting a list together for fnm is also different than brewing for a 300+ person event. All my lists are built for a huge, 8 or 15 round event and look to mitigate times where the deck just loses to itself or has an unfavorable interaction.....like damping matrix and walking ballista (oh man, what a punt). this is the main reason why I'm not running dragon, and if I WERE to run dragon, it would be in place of a 4 cc spell like koth. I don't like running more than 6 4cc spells because of the lack of lands and potential to get buried under your own bridge. but, everyone have to play the list that feels right. Oh, and like I said before, teferi is causing a resourange of blue control decks. anything less than three eidolons and a boil in the board is not where you wannas be.
So let me justify some choices that I'm sure will garner questions.
Buried Ruin. Shout out to RayStack! I like the idea of having a chance at getting the bridge back, or if they EE on three and I lose moon and Bridge, yay Ruin is unlocked, but when they EE I'm likely dead b/c ya can't play Bridge at Instant speed. I like it though and I've gone down to 1 Eidolon so I don't really need RR until Turn-4 in a fair sort of roll out. In an unfair roll out I'll be generating Rs so what's the big deal.
Koth. Why can't I quit you? His down tick won me a game against Fairies where they bounced my Chandra on 7 and I had 4 mana, then I played rabble for 3, they tapped out to counter, ticked down Koth for the extra 3 mana I needed. Then I played Chandra back down into a scoop. I love you Koth!
Eidolon/Glorybringer. I can't decide. GB you ruined me at Hartford and you shat a bunch of dragon egg on my face. I was a believer, Fluff, he showed me the light, but still the taste in my mouth is def not enough for you to be a two-of. But since you wreck a lot of match-ups that I'm not so keen with, alright, I'll take one. And that's basically how I feel about Eidolon. A MD one of these 2 can win games, and isn't that what we're here to do? Cripple opponents with one card? - I do believe so. People do have answers, but the shell of the deck is designed to kill quick when a lock is oppressing our opponents strategy.
PnK. Come on back in. Your utility is amazing. Sorry for doubting you. We're not in love yet, but I like you in a way that is new to me.
So I'm open on some small changes to the MD, but I like it.
Sideboard.
Molten Rain. I love killing your one basic. SO MUCH. I know Jund is dying, so out of respect I went up a Boil and I'm thinking about keeping in Defense Grid. Its also like a 5th Blood Moon - well alright you're right, no its not, but it has that same sort of mess-up-their-lands vibe too it and I LOVE that - not like Ponza love it, but post board love it.
Sorcerous Spyglass or Revoker. Couldn't decide, I like 2 of the effect, so I went with the split.
Same logic for Cage/Relic.
Torpor is a must have. I wouldn't mind 2 of these even. Ahh Torpor Orb, you make some of the most annoying things in the world stop. See Flickerwisp, TKS and Rec Sage - I hate you all.
The extra Abrade? Well to get out from behind the bridge, but I think that breaking a Bridge to attack would be really fringe. Otherwise why have it? Well b/c its just a freakin' sick ass card.
Defense Grid. I hate counter spells. U/W might be coming back with Teferi instead of Jace, so I'd like to preempt that stuff. No EoT CoCo, or bouncing of the bridge on my turn.
Anger? I don't think I want to lighten up here. I feel a little light on sweepers to begin with and going down to 1 Anger and 1 Abrade as removal post board does not feel great.
Eidolon and Haz. Gotta have the speed package.
Spellskite. I recounted the cards discussed to ensure that I hit all 15, but I didn't. I forgot about someone. IDK if that speaks my valuation of their importance to me, or my ignorance about their importance to me. Since I have Buried Ruin I can dump this now right? Whoa whoa whoa hold up. I know Buried Ruin is fringe. Its just all upside with very limited downside in my mind. It doesn't REPLACE Spellskite - tf? Bogles can still be a thing. K-Command can still be a thing. Control mode is still a thing, and when I go there, I hope you come too.
So cutting ideas? No not like that, that period is past me now... lol kidding... but seriously...
I was thinking Defense Grid and Molten Rain may be the top suggestions for cuts.
There's also the, go down a land, move Eidolon MD from SB and create space like that :-/.
I look forward to some discussion. I'm not on the Chainwhirler package. I don't think he'd solve my problems, and at the moment, I'll be one of the ones staying closer to the stock list. I've had A LOT of success with it and hope to evolve the stock with some of the logic acquired from my and other's testing.
Hey all. Just came by via a reddit invite to say I'm in love with this deck. I'm going to spend the next few days backing up in this thread and getting more familiar with the history. I've been playing Fluffy's latest build on MTGO for about a week and I absolutely love the lines of play this deck offers. It feels VERY versatile. I'm relatively new to modern (6 months) and have only played MTGO matches. Of the decks I've dipped my toe in, this one is by far the one that fits my play style.
Hope to be contributing soon. Until then, know I'm reading/catching up and jamming games to get better. I haven't played any leagues yet, but after reading Russ' post about Comp leagues and taking the training wheels off, I think its time to do so. Get me some learnin' in.
Dev, what are we prepping for? mtgo or paper? big event or comp leagues / fnm? I'm going to approach this as if you were coming to the invitational with me....speaking of, you roadtripping it down to SCGCON? I know you're up north and its a HUGE drive, but I've seen player travel farther.
If this is for paper magic, you need two walking ballista. super infinite combo via devoted druid is a real deck and played a lot in paper. hell, a few weeks ago, it put three copies into the top 10 decks, including 1st place. If there was a single card that took this deck from competitive to utterly dominat, it was this. MTGO is different. infinite combo is not nearly as popular because of the clock, so the mtgo meta is better to skip on one or even both ballistas. in paper, don't leave them at home.
Lands....I've come around on ramnuap ruins. I see you dropped a ritual for a buried ruin. this is a meta choice of whether you prefer speed over resiliancy. it's a 50/50 split. I prefer speed, others prefer the ability to get a piece back in a pinch. I like this route for your deck because you are going the dragon route. speaking of....
Dragon and one eidolon maindeck? I don't like eidolon main deck. humans and hollow/one are still the most played decks in modern and eidolon is literally just a dead card vs both. I would play a chainwhirler, even though you hate them you have't seen the interaction with chain whirler and walking ballista yet, have you. well, I have off stream and it's great. ballista pings a few dueds, then chain whirler kills them all. I've kill three x/2 dudes at once with it. not to mention it's BOSS vs ponza. Killing all their mana dorks, sometimes on turn two is a thing. I'd play chainwhirler over dragon. at least it's guaranteed to do something, lower on the curve, and if you'r hiding behind a bridge, will chip shot the opponent.
this is where I would start. Oh, and I hate anger maindeck. I know i've seen player use it to great effect game one, but it feels like it's not versitle enough for a main deck inclusion. remember, I'm talking from a 15 round tournament perspective, not a small 5 round comp league. I want max value from all my cards every game.
Let me know if you're crazy enough to go to SCGCON. I asked previously on this forum and nobody answered, so i'm asking again.
SICK rundown Russ. I'm thinking for MTGO for the comp leagues this weekend.
As far as SCGCON - Breh I need a house lol. So SCGCON has to wait... I'm one year into the earnings of an Engineer, so not this year or next, but I'll be dragging the family to every and any event soon enough.
I have a hard time with Anger main deck too. I do too like the versatility of Slag... you have the option to not kill your 5 goblin tokens which is often nice.
Correct on the Chainwhirler Ballista interaction and that does indeed so very enticing. Or a Chandra tick down to then kill an Angler or some ish... okay I see what you're saying.
I think Eidolon main deck is a good MTGO meta play. I play a TON of storm on MTGO. I'd love to have a Eidolon and Chalice in the main. I do also play Affinity a lot, and having Eidolon in that matchup, I've learned, is not where I want to be.
I think you're right about the CoCo combo in paper. I rarely see it on MTGO, but I have seen it in numerous LGS tournaments on FNM or w/e.
Plenty to think about. Thanks man... who's streaming tonight?
Let me jump in here really quick and note. MTGO is fun, certainly it is. Competitive leagues are certainly higher rewards but please note that you can also burn through a lot. I would actually not claim myself as an 'infinite' player at all. Although we take a lot of 3-2, 4-1, and 5-0 leagues, we also take our fair share of 0-5, 1-4, and 2-3 which do not pay out.
Just something to keep in mind. Enjoy magic I play Friendly Leagues on Monday cause it is cheaper. =)
This is the list I'm going to play at the invitational. I'm not 100% on the full set of ramunap ruins, as they do deal us damage and make Koth actively worse, so I'm going to be testing those over the next couple of weeks I definitely want them in there, just not sure how many yet. also, I'm not 100% sold on damping matrix either. I've done well without it and think it could be something else. The abrade and the damping matrix are taking the place of two shattering sprees in the board from my original list. So, those are the cards that are up for debate right now. The rest is pretty much locked in place. I'm the one who originally suggested Glorybringer, but it hasn't done well in playing as I had hoped. Yes, there were may games where it just won the game on the spot, but there were others where he was useless. A few weeks ago, I was playing vs affinity and he was able to galvanic blast it before it attacked...twice. if that was a walking ballista or a chainwhirler, it would have bee a lot better.
Curious to her thoughts on Damping matrix. and the full set of ramunap ruins. Matrix is good vs counters company (or anything GW, like Todd Stevens value town), elves, taxes, eldrazi, affinity, and KCI. So i guess thats a wide enough net to play it as a singleton in the board. still wanna hear thoughts.
A few people have asked what my thoughts were on a list or two, so instead of commenting on every list that people present, I think it's more helpful to just post this as my idea of an optimal list. Please keep in mind, we all have different play styles and what works for me might not work for you. that's the beauty of this deck. the lock pieces are pretty set, but there are lots of options in the flex slots. Doesn't matter how you like to play, you can do it here.
Russ
P.S. I couldn't figure out how to make these fancy decklists, so I copied Dev's list and just changed the text. Hey, it worked! Thanks Dev!
Nice list, Russ. I could look at this list in a vacuum and know exactly who the pilot was :). I'll try and leave as much subjectivity out of my feedback as possible:
-1 Gemstone Cavern, +1 Mountain: With Two Chainwhirlers main and only 21 lands with 4 Colorless lands and a Koth in the main, I think the Mountain might be better than a Cavern which will end up being 1-turn colorless ramp a lot of the time due to the legend rule. -1 Pyretic Ritual, +1 Mountain: I feel like we lose more games to not hitting enough land drops than we win by having that extra ritual. A lot of pros will tell you that people play too few lands in their decks! -1 Hazoret, +1 Eidolon: I think the 4th Eidolon is just a better card to bring in when we need to turn up the volume on our aggro plan. Whatever edge cases in which Hazoret might be better I think pale in comparison to having that Turn 2 (or 1) aggro play. Also, it just hoses a lot of decks that can give us trouble (KCI, Storm, Control, and more) -1 Spellskite, +1 of your choice: (Personally, I'd run the 4th Abrade or 3rd Anger) Spellskite seems worse than it used to. I don't have much anicdotal justification for this one, but I've gotten rid of him a long time ago and haven't missed him.
Nice list, Russ. I could look at this list in a vacuum and know exactly who the pilot was :). I'll try and leave as much subjectivity out of my feedback as possible:
-1 Gemstone Cavern, +1 Mountain: With Two Chainwhirlers main and only 21 lands with 4 Colorless lands and a Koth in the main, I think the Mountain might be better than a Cavern which will end up being 1-turn colorless ramp a lot of the time due to the legend rule. -1 Pyretic Ritual, +1 Mountain: Maybe this one is leaning on personal preference, but I feel like we lose more games to not hitting enough land drops than we win by having that extra ritual. -1 Hazoret, +1 Eidolon: I think the 4th Eidolon is just a better card to bring in when we need to turn up the volume on our aggro plan. Whatever edge cases in which Hazoret might be better I think pale in comparison to having that Turn 2 (or 1) aggro play. Also, it just hoses a lot of decks that can give us trouble (KCI, Storm, Control, and more) -1 Spellskite, +1 of your choice: (Personally, I'd run the 4th Abrade or 3rd Anger) Spellskite seems worse than it used to. I don't have much anicdotal justification for this one, but I've gotten rid of him a long time ago and haven't missed him.
My 2 Cents. I still stand by 4 Ramunap Ruins too!
items 1&2. I prioritize speed first and foremost in this deck. this is the reason why I am running 3 chrome mox....i mean gemstone cavernss main deck. the turn 2/3 chainwhirler can be done via a ritual or a simian spirit guide. and lets be honest, when you NEED him, turn three is too late. Either the humans have grown, the bird had put a devoted druid in play, or affinity is untapped with an active overseer or ravager. Chainwhirler is usually a turn two play when he's needed, otherwise, he could be turn 15 for all I care. When you need him, you need him before turn three.
One more thing, I am very strict with my deck building when it comes to mana costs. You'll notice that I have exactly 6 cards that cost four or more (chandra x4, koth, P&K). This allows me to be comfortable playing 21 lands and 9 rituals. When I was running dragons, I went up to 22 lands because I had eight cards that cost 4+. If you are using a build that has seven or more 4cc spells, then you really want that extra land. If you are playing the deck the way I build it (or Ray, because he's also light on the higher end of the curve), then 21 lands is where you wanna be. Remember, the power here is playing stuff way ahead of curve and hoping it invalidates your opponents entire strategy or is too fast for them to recover. Rabblemaster or moon on turn three sucks. Those need to be turn two or one. Take notice how often you win a match when your opening hand is three lands, moon, and no ritual. Now that I said it, you'll notice and the light bulb will illuminate in your head. I'm not saying mulligan those hands, but they are not nearly as good as a hand that has two lands, ritual, moon.
Item 3. Hazoret is not only an aggro card, hes VERY difficult to answer. He's my 4th aggro piece but also my ace vs grixis shadow, jund, traverse anything, any type of control deck, and tron. He's also a good clock vs combo, but there, eidolon is better.
Item 4. Spellskite almost always oomes in game two/three. affinity is a real deck and EVERYONE has artifact hate in their board. Plus, this also is game over vs bogles and infect (not that we need the help here), stops ravager modular ability, good vs burn, and makes jeskai control look silly with all their bolts/helixes.
I like the justifications. I'm going to try it your way for a league and see how it feels. I haven't actually tested Chainwhirler yet so I'm excited to see him in action.
You guys aren't thinking straight. Take a hint from Legacy Big Red right now. Maybe we add some number of Mox Amber, Trinisphere and Damping Sphere for maximum spice.
You guys aren't thinking straight. Take a hint from Legacy Big Red right now. Maybe we add some number of Mox Amber, Trinisphere and Damping Sphere for maximum spice.
I would love to make a mox work in this shell. Same with trinisphere. thats one of my favorite cards. I have like 9 of them from a long time ago. damoing sphere has been tried and it's not that great here because we already have cards that give is the same effect. Timtam, how can we make a mox work here? Im open to suggestions.
Your question made me look up the price.....HOLY *****!!! they are $35?!?!?!?! That was a $2.00 card! good lord, I thought they were worthless. shows how much I look at the price of cards.
Were you serious about buying them? I usually don't sell cards because I sold my collection to get married in 2009....huge mistake...not getting married, but raising money that way. This was not worth $32K 9 years ago. more like $4K...yeah, haven't sold a card since....oh, and I had the entire power nine despite this deck not playing all of it.
Yeah buddy, I got one of them sob stories about selling collections with Power 9. My pull down was a mere $800. /shudder. And, I had 2 trade binders stolen. Let's just bury that one in the past, right Russ? Though, if anyone does invent a time machine.....heh, why do old Magic players always default to a prioritized trip to stop yourself from selling your collection back in the 90s?
So, I've been absent for a while. Why? Well, my cardboard crack addiction has just gone digital. Yup. I'm chasing the 5 color dragon. Modo...MTGO...I'm in!!! Took all last weekend to get set up - man, not easy. And, a week of trying to figure out how to play magic all over again - man, not easy. Way better than cockatrice. Doesn't hurt that Magic25 set basically reprinted our deck, so the price was tasty. At this point, I'm walking and learning to run. Interfacing play mistakes are pisser, but I'll soon be slamming 5-0s with Russ, Fluffy, and Chekmate amongst others.
Huh, one these top 8 decks at a 182 person event looks awfully familiar. Anybody know Diego Elera? Well, he definitely knows us!Pyro Prison certified. But, it wasn't labeled as such. The deck is titled Mono Red Prison. Alright, let's get into this....
OUR DECK
We play Pyro Prison. I understand that folks stream under mono-red prison and type into reddit threads with simpler terms like red prison. Makes sense. The larger Magic community doesn't know our name. But, to call us Red Prison is not accurate enough. Red Prison has been around since the game was founded: it's just a color and an archetype. For sake of comparison, consider Blue Aggro. What is Blue Aggro? If I said I lost to Blue Aggro last night, would you know that I'm talking about a Merfolk deck?
The Hierarchy: Control > Prison > Red Prison > Pyro Prison. I started the deck and thread out as RED Prison - Hammer's Slammer. As the deck got refined and wins started rolling in, I knew that we were going to become a star with our name in lights, baby. So, branding became a consideration. Now, I know that Fluffy is championing our cause to get elevated in the forums (fondly refer to him as 'the professor' - I'll soon be posting his Top 4 deck list in a 100+ person event & sideboarding guide in the Official Primer). But, I take issue with his choice of words: Red Prison.
Again, I used to call us RED Prison as a deck type and Hammer's Slammer as the name of my particular deck. But, here's the problem. I realized that RED Prison worked in print, but not in speech. The all capitals referred to the aggro/goblin element of the deck, but you can't capitalize the spoken word.
If I said that I played RED Prison, people would say, "What kind?" So, we needed a fix. A poll went up on the thread. Caligula proposed Pyro Prison, and it was a near unanimous decision. Pyro for the Aggro/Spear and Prison for the Control/Shield. Perfect.
Yeah buddy, I got one of them sob stories about selling collections with Power 9. My pull down was a mere $800. /shudder. And, I had 2 trade binders stolen. Let's just bury that one in the past, right Russ? Though, if anyone does invent a time machine.....heh, why do old Magic players always default to a prioritized trip to stop yourself from selling your collection back in the 90s?
So, I've been absent for a while. Why? Well, my cardboard crack addiction has just gone digital. Yup. I'm chasing the 5 color dragon. Modo...MTGO...I'm in!!! Took all last weekend to get set up - man, not easy. And, a week of trying to figure out how to play magic all over again - man, not easy. Way better than cockatrice. Doesn't hurt that Magic25 set basically reprinted our deck, so the price was tasty. At this point, I'm walking and learning to run. Interfacing play mistakes are pisser, but I'll soon be slamming 5-0s with Russ, Fluffy, and Chekmate amongst others.
Huh, one these top 8 decks at a 182 person event looks awfully familiar. Anybody know Diego Elera? Well, he definitely knows us!Pyro Prison certified. But, it wasn't labeled as such. The deck is titled Mono Red Prison. Alright, let's get into this....
OUR DECK
We play Pyro Prison. I understand that folks stream under mono-red prison and type into reddit threads with simpler terms like red prison. Makes sense. The larger Magic community doesn't know our name. But, to call us Red Prison is not accurate enough. Red Prison has been around since the game was founded: it's just a color and an archetype. For sake of comparison, consider Blue Aggro. What is Blue Aggro? If I said I lost to Blue Aggro last night, would you know that I'm talking about a Merfolk deck?
The Hierarchy: Control > Prison > Red Prison > Pyro Prison. I started the deck and thread out as RED Prison - Hammer's Slammer. As the deck got refined and wins started rolling in, I knew that we were going to become a star with our name in lights, baby. So, branding became a consideration. Now, I know that Fluffy is championing our cause to get elevated in the forums (fondly refer to him as 'the professor' - I'll soon be posting his Top 4 deck list in a 100+ person event & sideboarding guide in the Official Primer). But, I take issue with his choice of words: Red Prison.
Again, I used to call us RED Prison as a deck type and Hammer's Slammer as the name of my particular deck. But, here's the problem. I realized that RED Prison worked in print, but not in speech. The all capitals referred to the aggro/goblin element of the deck, but you can't capitalize the spoken word.
If I said that I played RED Prison, people would say, "What kind?" So, we needed a fix. A poll went up on the thread. Caligula proposed Pyro Prison, and it was a near unanimous decision. Pyro for the Aggro/Spear and Prison for the Control/Shield. Perfect.
Woah woah woah....we on MTGO?!?!?! super awesome. Looking forward to those 5-0 decklists. Seeing the top 8 list from the face to face games made me smile so big, it hurt. 182 people! that's no small feat.
Let me know if you need tickets to buy anything and what your mtgo name is. I was serious about making a donation to the godfather.
I played 2 Trinisphere @ FNM last week. They were both good and bad. I saw a copy 3 times over the course of the night. Twice it shut my opponent down and once it cost me a game. In the 2 games it shined, it is possible that it wasn't needed at all. It cost me a game when i was stuck on 3 mana and had Chandra in hand. I could not draw a land over 5 turns and finally hit a ritual... If anyone decides to give it a go, remember that spells with cmc 1 still get countered by Chalice even if they pay 3. In the end, I finished 3-0-1,splitting with a friend in the finals. I will be testing Chainwhirler in that spot tonight.
I just looked at R/G Eldrazi in MTGSalvation... since it had that big win, I wanted to see where the deck was at today. Also I saw that it has an "established deck" title so I wanted to see what their numbers were like. One post yesterday and one post like a week prior. I'm not knocking the deck at all, I think its cool, but I think it speaks more to the Pyro Prison community being on top of their deck and Magic in general. It was cool catchin' everyone online last night. I'll post the list I'm going to run for the weekend as soon as I get around to firming it up.
as far as lists go, I still a big fan of my list, but who isn't a fan of their own list. I will say that brewing for mtgo is very different than brewing for paper. And putting a list together for fnm is also different than brewing for a 300+ person event. All my lists are built for a huge, 8 or 15 round event and look to mitigate times where the deck just loses to itself or has an unfavorable interaction.....like damping matrix and walking ballista (oh man, what a punt). this is the main reason why I'm not running dragon, and if I WERE to run dragon, it would be in place of a 4 cc spell like koth. I don't like running more than 6 4cc spells because of the lack of lands and potential to get buried under your own bridge. but, everyone have to play the list that feels right. Oh, and like I said before, teferi is causing a resourange of blue control decks. anything less than three eidolons and a boil in the board is not where you wannas be.
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Accelerators (8)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Lands (22)
1 Buried Ruin
13 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
Removal (5)
3 Abrade
1 Slagstorm
1 Anger of the Gods
Utility (2)
1 Walking Ballista
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Flex (2)
1 Glorybringer
1 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Spellskite
1 Torpor Orb
1 Defense Grid
1 Abrade
1 Boil
1 Molten Rain
So let me justify some choices that I'm sure will garner questions.
Buried Ruin. Shout out to RayStack! I like the idea of having a chance at getting the bridge back, or if they EE on three and I lose moon and Bridge, yay Ruin is unlocked, but when they EE I'm likely dead b/c ya can't play Bridge at Instant speed. I like it though and I've gone down to 1 Eidolon so I don't really need RR until Turn-4 in a fair sort of roll out. In an unfair roll out I'll be generating Rs so what's the big deal.
Koth. Why can't I quit you? His down tick won me a game against Fairies where they bounced my Chandra on 7 and I had 4 mana, then I played rabble for 3, they tapped out to counter, ticked down Koth for the extra 3 mana I needed. Then I played Chandra back down into a scoop. I love you Koth!
Eidolon/Glorybringer. I can't decide. GB you ruined me at Hartford and you shat a bunch of dragon egg on my face. I was a believer, Fluff, he showed me the light, but still the taste in my mouth is def not enough for you to be a two-of. But since you wreck a lot of match-ups that I'm not so keen with, alright, I'll take one. And that's basically how I feel about Eidolon. A MD one of these 2 can win games, and isn't that what we're here to do? Cripple opponents with one card? - I do believe so. People do have answers, but the shell of the deck is designed to kill quick when a lock is oppressing our opponents strategy.
PnK. Come on back in. Your utility is amazing. Sorry for doubting you. We're not in love yet, but I like you in a way that is new to me.
So I'm open on some small changes to the MD, but I like it.
Sideboard.
Molten Rain. I love killing your one basic. SO MUCH. I know Jund is dying, so out of respect I went up a Boil and I'm thinking about keeping in Defense Grid. Its also like a 5th Blood Moon - well alright you're right, no its not, but it has that same sort of mess-up-their-lands vibe too it and I LOVE that - not like Ponza love it, but post board love it.
Sorcerous Spyglass or Revoker. Couldn't decide, I like 2 of the effect, so I went with the split.
Same logic for Cage/Relic.
Torpor is a must have. I wouldn't mind 2 of these even. Ahh Torpor Orb, you make some of the most annoying things in the world stop. See Flickerwisp, TKS and Rec Sage - I hate you all.
The extra Abrade? Well to get out from behind the bridge, but I think that breaking a Bridge to attack would be really fringe. Otherwise why have it? Well b/c its just a freakin' sick ass card.
Defense Grid. I hate counter spells. U/W might be coming back with Teferi instead of Jace, so I'd like to preempt that stuff. No EoT CoCo, or bouncing of the bridge on my turn.
Anger? I don't think I want to lighten up here. I feel a little light on sweepers to begin with and going down to 1 Anger and 1 Abrade as removal post board does not feel great.
Eidolon and Haz. Gotta have the speed package.
Spellskite. I recounted the cards discussed to ensure that I hit all 15, but I didn't. I forgot about someone. IDK if that speaks my valuation of their importance to me, or my ignorance about their importance to me. Since I have Buried Ruin I can dump this now right? Whoa whoa whoa hold up. I know Buried Ruin is fringe. Its just all upside with very limited downside in my mind. It doesn't REPLACE Spellskite - tf? Bogles can still be a thing. K-Command can still be a thing. Control mode is still a thing, and when I go there, I hope you come too.
So cutting ideas? No not like that, that period is past me now... lol kidding... but seriously...
I was thinking Defense Grid and Molten Rain may be the top suggestions for cuts.
There's also the, go down a land, move Eidolon MD from SB and create space like that :-/.
I look forward to some discussion. I'm not on the Chainwhirler package. I don't think he'd solve my problems, and at the moment, I'll be one of the ones staying closer to the stock list. I've had A LOT of success with it and hope to evolve the stock with some of the logic acquired from my and other's testing.
Thanks for readin'.
Hope to be contributing soon. Until then, know I'm reading/catching up and jamming games to get better. I haven't played any leagues yet, but after reading Russ' post about Comp leagues and taking the training wheels off, I think its time to do so. Get me some learnin' in.
Hope to catch you all on stream in the future.
If this is for paper magic, you need two walking ballista. super infinite combo via devoted druid is a real deck and played a lot in paper. hell, a few weeks ago, it put three copies into the top 10 decks, including 1st place. If there was a single card that took this deck from competitive to utterly dominat, it was this. MTGO is different. infinite combo is not nearly as popular because of the clock, so the mtgo meta is better to skip on one or even both ballistas. in paper, don't leave them at home.
Lands....I've come around on ramnuap ruins. I see you dropped a ritual for a buried ruin. this is a meta choice of whether you prefer speed over resiliancy. it's a 50/50 split. I prefer speed, others prefer the ability to get a piece back in a pinch. I like this route for your deck because you are going the dragon route. speaking of....
Dragon and one eidolon maindeck? I don't like eidolon main deck. humans and hollow/one are still the most played decks in modern and eidolon is literally just a dead card vs both. I would play a chainwhirler, even though you hate them you have't seen the interaction with chain whirler and walking ballista yet, have you. well, I have off stream and it's great. ballista pings a few dueds, then chain whirler kills them all. I've kill three x/2 dudes at once with it. not to mention it's BOSS vs ponza. Killing all their mana dorks, sometimes on turn two is a thing. I'd play chainwhirler over dragon. at least it's guaranteed to do something, lower on the curve, and if you'r hiding behind a bridge, will chip shot the opponent.
this is where I would start. Oh, and I hate anger maindeck. I know i've seen player use it to great effect game one, but it feels like it's not versitle enough for a main deck inclusion. remember, I'm talking from a 15 round tournament perspective, not a small 5 round comp league. I want max value from all my cards every game.
Let me know if you're crazy enough to go to SCGCON. I asked previously on this forum and nobody answered, so i'm asking again.
As far as SCGCON - Breh I need a house lol. So SCGCON has to wait... I'm one year into the earnings of an Engineer, so not this year or next, but I'll be dragging the family to every and any event soon enough.
I have a hard time with Anger main deck too. I do too like the versatility of Slag... you have the option to not kill your 5 goblin tokens which is often nice.
Correct on the Chainwhirler Ballista interaction and that does indeed so very enticing. Or a Chandra tick down to then kill an Angler or some ish... okay I see what you're saying.
I think Eidolon main deck is a good MTGO meta play. I play a TON of storm on MTGO. I'd love to have a Eidolon and Chalice in the main. I do also play Affinity a lot, and having Eidolon in that matchup, I've learned, is not where I want to be.
I think you're right about the CoCo combo in paper. I rarely see it on MTGO, but I have seen it in numerous LGS tournaments on FNM or w/e.
Plenty to think about. Thanks man... who's streaming tonight?
Just something to keep in mind. Enjoy magic I play Friendly Leagues on Monday cause it is cheaper. =)
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
Accelerators (9)
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Lands (21)
13 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Scavenger Grounds
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Goblin Chainwhirler
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Walking Ballista
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Koth of the Hammer
Removal (4)
2 Abrade
2 Slagstorm
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Spellskite
1 Torpor Orb
1 Boil
1 Abrade
1 Damping Matrix
This is the list I'm going to play at the invitational. I'm not 100% on the full set of ramunap ruins, as they do deal us damage and make Koth actively worse, so I'm going to be testing those over the next couple of weeks I definitely want them in there, just not sure how many yet. also, I'm not 100% sold on damping matrix either. I've done well without it and think it could be something else. The abrade and the damping matrix are taking the place of two shattering sprees in the board from my original list. So, those are the cards that are up for debate right now. The rest is pretty much locked in place. I'm the one who originally suggested Glorybringer, but it hasn't done well in playing as I had hoped. Yes, there were may games where it just won the game on the spot, but there were others where he was useless. A few weeks ago, I was playing vs affinity and he was able to galvanic blast it before it attacked...twice. if that was a walking ballista or a chainwhirler, it would have bee a lot better.
Curious to her thoughts on Damping matrix. and the full set of ramunap ruins. Matrix is good vs counters company (or anything GW, like Todd Stevens value town), elves, taxes, eldrazi, affinity, and KCI. So i guess thats a wide enough net to play it as a singleton in the board. still wanna hear thoughts.
A few people have asked what my thoughts were on a list or two, so instead of commenting on every list that people present, I think it's more helpful to just post this as my idea of an optimal list. Please keep in mind, we all have different play styles and what works for me might not work for you. that's the beauty of this deck. the lock pieces are pretty set, but there are lots of options in the flex slots. Doesn't matter how you like to play, you can do it here.
Russ
P.S. I couldn't figure out how to make these fancy decklists, so I copied Dev's list and just changed the text. Hey, it worked! Thanks Dev!
-1 Gemstone Cavern, +1 Mountain: With Two Chainwhirlers main and only 21 lands with 4 Colorless lands and a Koth in the main, I think the Mountain might be better than a Cavern which will end up being 1-turn colorless ramp a lot of the time due to the legend rule.
-1 Pyretic Ritual, +1 Mountain: I feel like we lose more games to not hitting enough land drops than we win by having that extra ritual. A lot of pros will tell you that people play too few lands in their decks!
-1 Hazoret, +1 Eidolon: I think the 4th Eidolon is just a better card to bring in when we need to turn up the volume on our aggro plan. Whatever edge cases in which Hazoret might be better I think pale in comparison to having that Turn 2 (or 1) aggro play. Also, it just hoses a lot of decks that can give us trouble (KCI, Storm, Control, and more)
-1 Spellskite, +1 of your choice: (Personally, I'd run the 4th Abrade or 3rd Anger) Spellskite seems worse than it used to. I don't have much anicdotal justification for this one, but I've gotten rid of him a long time ago and haven't missed him.
My 2 Cents. I still stand by 4 Ramunap Ruins too!
items 1&2. I prioritize speed first and foremost in this deck. this is the reason why I am running 3 chrome mox....i mean gemstone cavernss main deck. the turn 2/3 chainwhirler can be done via a ritual or a simian spirit guide. and lets be honest, when you NEED him, turn three is too late. Either the humans have grown, the bird had put a devoted druid in play, or affinity is untapped with an active overseer or ravager. Chainwhirler is usually a turn two play when he's needed, otherwise, he could be turn 15 for all I care. When you need him, you need him before turn three.
One more thing, I am very strict with my deck building when it comes to mana costs. You'll notice that I have exactly 6 cards that cost four or more (chandra x4, koth, P&K). This allows me to be comfortable playing 21 lands and 9 rituals. When I was running dragons, I went up to 22 lands because I had eight cards that cost 4+. If you are using a build that has seven or more 4cc spells, then you really want that extra land. If you are playing the deck the way I build it (or Ray, because he's also light on the higher end of the curve), then 21 lands is where you wanna be. Remember, the power here is playing stuff way ahead of curve and hoping it invalidates your opponents entire strategy or is too fast for them to recover. Rabblemaster or moon on turn three sucks. Those need to be turn two or one. Take notice how often you win a match when your opening hand is three lands, moon, and no ritual. Now that I said it, you'll notice and the light bulb will illuminate in your head. I'm not saying mulligan those hands, but they are not nearly as good as a hand that has two lands, ritual, moon.
Item 3. Hazoret is not only an aggro card, hes VERY difficult to answer. He's my 4th aggro piece but also my ace vs grixis shadow, jund, traverse anything, any type of control deck, and tron. He's also a good clock vs combo, but there, eidolon is better.
Item 4. Spellskite almost always oomes in game two/three. affinity is a real deck and EVERYONE has artifact hate in their board. Plus, this also is game over vs bogles and infect (not that we need the help here), stops ravager modular ability, good vs burn, and makes jeskai control look silly with all their bolts/helixes.
RG BBE Ponza
UX Eldrazi Tron
UR Jace Breach
I would love to make a mox work in this shell. Same with trinisphere. thats one of my favorite cards. I have like 9 of them from a long time ago. damoing sphere has been tried and it's not that great here because we already have cards that give is the same effect. Timtam, how can we make a mox work here? Im open to suggestions.
Your question made me look up the price.....HOLY *****!!! they are $35?!?!?!?! That was a $2.00 card! good lord, I thought they were worthless. shows how much I look at the price of cards.
Were you serious about buying them? I usually don't sell cards because I sold my collection to get married in 2009....huge mistake...not getting married, but raising money that way. This was not worth $32K 9 years ago. more like $4K...yeah, haven't sold a card since....oh, and I had the entire power nine despite this deck not playing all of it.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=4384
So, I've been absent for a while. Why? Well, my cardboard crack addiction has just gone digital. Yup. I'm chasing the 5 color dragon. Modo...MTGO...I'm in!!! Took all last weekend to get set up - man, not easy. And, a week of trying to figure out how to play magic all over again - man, not easy. Way better than cockatrice. Doesn't hurt that Magic25 set basically reprinted our deck, so the price was tasty. At this point, I'm walking and learning to run. Interfacing play mistakes are pisser, but I'll soon be slamming 5-0s with Russ, Fluffy, and Chekmate amongst others.
So, what have I missed? http://f2fseries.facetofacegames.com/red-deer-open-may-12th-2018/
Huh, one these top 8 decks at a 182 person event looks awfully familiar. Anybody know Diego Elera? Well, he definitely knows us! Pyro Prison certified. But, it wasn't labeled as such. The deck is titled Mono Red Prison. Alright, let's get into this....
OUR DECK
We play Pyro Prison. I understand that folks stream under mono-red prison and type into reddit threads with simpler terms like red prison. Makes sense. The larger Magic community doesn't know our name. But, to call us Red Prison is not accurate enough. Red Prison has been around since the game was founded: it's just a color and an archetype. For sake of comparison, consider Blue Aggro. What is Blue Aggro? If I said I lost to Blue Aggro last night, would you know that I'm talking about a Merfolk deck?
The Hierarchy: Control > Prison > Red Prison > Pyro Prison. I started the deck and thread out as RED Prison - Hammer's Slammer. As the deck got refined and wins started rolling in, I knew that we were going to become a star with our name in lights, baby. So, branding became a consideration. Now, I know that Fluffy is championing our cause to get elevated in the forums (fondly refer to him as 'the professor' - I'll soon be posting his Top 4 deck list in a 100+ person event & sideboarding guide in the Official Primer). But, I take issue with his choice of words: Red Prison.
Again, I used to call us RED Prison as a deck type and Hammer's Slammer as the name of my particular deck. But, here's the problem. I realized that RED Prison worked in print, but not in speech. The all capitals referred to the aggro/goblin element of the deck, but you can't capitalize the spoken word.
If I said that I played RED Prison, people would say, "What kind?" So, we needed a fix. A poll went up on the thread. Caligula proposed Pyro Prison, and it was a near unanimous decision. Pyro for the Aggro/Spear and Prison for the Control/Shield. Perfect.
Woah woah woah....we on MTGO?!?!?! super awesome. Looking forward to those 5-0 decklists. Seeing the top 8 list from the face to face games made me smile so big, it hurt. 182 people! that's no small feat.
Let me know if you need tickets to buy anything and what your mtgo name is. I was serious about making a donation to the godfather.