Oof... Yeah, I just lost respect for Jim Davis with that match. I hold pros to a higher standard than salty FNM spikes, and I really got that vibe from him there. I get it, it sucks losing to a prison deck, and I went through a phase of hating on Lantern players. There's a tough lesson to learn in MTG that takes some a long time to learn (read: me) and some never learn:
"Magic is a game of percentages. All you can do is make good decisions that tilt the percentages in your favor. Even the best players in the world can still lose to little Timmy at FNM."
- RogueDecker
- Michael Scott
If you really internalize that, it gets easier to not get so salty about bad beats.
Octopusman! As I live and breath...welcome back. As folks know from reading the official primer, I created Pyro Prison by melding 2 devilishly clever decks: Free Win Red by Saffron Olive and Bloody Humans by Peter Neimeier. Well, Peter is in fact Octopusman. Far removed from the oceans, he is back amongst the mountainfolk. Huzzah!
Good hearing from Poptatz again (agree on your thinking on scavenger grounds getting used), and a new face at the campfire is mrflushem - excellent! Obsidian Fireheart has got moxy, but it does take time to grind down a win. (7) mana before he does his first ping from behind a bridge and no way to target creatures in a way that Pia and Kiran or Siege-Gang Commander can do.
Lotta testing of the new cards out there with some differing opinions. I agree with Fluffy's commentary in post # 1832, but differ on Damping Sphere. I think Russ and CashewLoL are right to dismiss this card as self-defeating. If we ever get to a point where we remove our rituals (like my Chandra Unchained 1.0 prototype), then we can consider the sphere.
As for Jim Davis....well, I saw the video. Similar to how MTGsalvation prohibits the bad-mouthing of other Magic decks, I will withhold my opinion of his behavior and his implicit defense of that 'glass cannon' deck. Prison decks cause havoc - that's their job - but, our Pyro components bring interactive threats and alternative win-cons to the table. If folks take issue with Pyro Prison as a slog to face, I would direct their attention to about a 1/2 dozen, tiered masturbatory decks that plague competitive play. But, again, decorum and personal dignity prohibit such a response. So, let's allllll move on from what was certainly a bitter, whiny and disreputable display.
Let's give Jim the benefit of the doubt. We all have bad days and he was testing a new deck and ran into our buzzsaw in the first round. I've been salty on stream before. Hes still one of my favorite players. No love lost there.
Almost invitational time. I didn't platinum God if War yet, but that stinna have to wait. It's time to start practicing modern and standard. I love all the new voices here. Please, anyone else that is playing this deck, let us know. Add your voice. It's always welcome.
Lastly, someone other than fluffy and me got a 5-0 with out list....it starts. First the forum regulars do well, then others notice and pick it up.....then it gets popular...go go pyro prison!
Where's the doubt? For the entirety of 3 games, Jim's spoken commentary jabbed with multiple, unapologetic attacks which were both professional and personal. Like when Jim repeatedly said of one of our kinfolk, "[sic]...my opponent is a jerk". For what? Seemingly, nothing. In fact, the record shows, by Jim's accounting, that the Pyro Prison player was silent throughout their personal chat. Nothing said. So, how is our kin a jerk? He's a jerk by simply being a Pyro Prison player???
Also, Jim repeatedly said "[our deck] is everything that is wrong with Modern today", alongside other caustic remarks.
I love all these guys on Twitter saying humans is the best deck. Took 1st and 2nd in the mocs. It's a good time to be a pyro player!
As far as the whole Jim Davis thing is concerned, I love it. When an opponent goes in tilt, they play worse. He was caught because he was streaming. I wonder how many opponenta have had than same reaction in mtgo but we don't see it. Let's face it, we're playing EVERY card in modern that people hate to play against....blood moon, chalice, bridge, and simian spirit guide. Our deck is busted from every angle and I'm loving every minute of it.
All that said, in person, people are mostly curious and impressed with our deck. Most people haven't played against it and when they lose, it's refreshing to have an opponent cool to losing to a different strategy. I've only had one opponent refuse to shake my hand, just one. So, when your home by yourself on mtgo, I'm sure Jim's reaction is more common, Don't let that stop you from picking this up and giving it for a spin. Remember, don't let people steal your joy, and this deck is hell a fun. What's not fun about riding a turn one rabblemaster to victory?
I kinda feel like eidolon is better than sphere against tron....
Also for those out there coming to vegas for the gp next month can we start solving and tuning a list?
I kinda feel like eidolon is better than sphere against tron....
Also for those out there coming to vegas for the gp next month can we start solving and tuning a list?
I'm going to be tuning my list for the invitational, so stay tuned. I'm away for the weekend, but I'll be back streaming this week.
Tron and other combo....you need pressure and a lock piece. One or the other won't work, but if you had to choose one, I'd go with pressure over a lock piece. For this reason, I agree, eidolona is better than sphere. We don't need sphere. We have lock pieces that donthe same thing, so you're thinking is spot on.
I was hopeful for sphere in the side at first. But after play testing I agree, we simply don't need it. Would rather have a sideboard card with more applications. But I do think against Tron and combo you have to be somewhat aggressive with mulligans to find your beater or lock. Or preferably both lol. And thank you to everyone on this forum and streamers. Checking in on everything has now become part of my daily routine. I enjoy every bit of it.
All that said, in person, people are mostly curious and impressed with our deck. Most people haven't played against it and when they lose, it's refreshing to have an opponent cool to losing to a different strategy. I've only had one opponent refuse to shake my hand, just one. So, when your home by yourself on mtgo, I'm sure Jim's reaction is more common, Don't let that stop you from picking this up and giving it for a spin. Remember, don't let people steal your joy, and this deck is hell a fun. What's not fun about riding a turn one rabblemaster to victory?
I took an earlier version to this to a PPTQ locally. The entire room basically watched as myself and another opponent grinded out games. The reason the deck caught people's eyes is because my opponent had ulted Liliana of the Veil 3 times and I was still alive. We completely approximately 25 turns in the 10 minutes we had. We entered turns and on the first turn, the opponent topdecked an answer. I smiled and asked if it was the only answer he nodded and I wished him well.
My opponent round 2 incorrectly played not knowing it, even after I literally explained my win condition to him (As in he fetched and had fewer cards left in the deck so I was going to deck him). 5 turns later he hard cast Emrakul instead of going to 8 cards and pitching to cycle. This game had a Chalice on 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. Yep... it was interesting. In Game 3, I get a T2 Blood Moon. My opponent pounds the table, yells in my face how they couldn't believe how lucky I was with an explicit language, gets up and storms off.
This is why I tow a very fine line with tolerating what influence professionals exemplify while playing. I literally had issues the remainder of the tournament after being yelled at like that with stress and a headache. The person was 'removed from the store' but was a regular so no further actions were taken.
@POPTATZ - I would say my list the 75 played by another person that is showing on MTGGoldfish right now is getting fairly optimized. I say this because someone we're not sure who (MrSinister47) took the deck and won. When you start nearing the level of optimization of a deck where someone can pick it up with less experience and win, then you're doing good things. There are variations, so look out for Russ's list also.
I've been wondering about Boil in the sideboard as a two of. I know that it's from an older list, but I'm wondering what the current consensus is on it. Fluffywolf explained in a stream the other day that it's both too narrow (only working against U control decks) and too reactive to be good in our deck. I'm inclined to agree, but don't have access to Koth and cards to replace them currently.
Alright guys, I'm interested. How would you say this deck performs compared to other Prison style decks, specifically Lantern? What are this decks weakest matchups?
I can't comment on how this deck plays as opposed to Sun and Moon or a similar RW prison deck, but we do fare better than decks like Free Win Red. The biggest difference between us and other Red based prison decks is that we have a proactive gameplan, as expert pilot Fluffywolf says so often, and we can change our playstyle based on what we need to do in our matchups. Yes, we can sit behind an Ensnaring Bridge and burn people out with Chandra. Yes, sometimes people scoop to a turn one Blood Moon. But against decks like Storm, every once in a while we put out a turn one Eidolon of the Great Revel followed up by a Goblin Rabblemaster and just win. We have the flexibility to play the control role or the aggro role, which gives us a leg up on more decks than other prison decks.
Our worst matchups tend to be attrition-based decks like Jund and Mardu Pyromancer, and to a lesser extent Abzan. Blood Moon doesn't work very well against Mardu, and Jund has so many answers to our threats and lock pieces that they have game against us no matter what. Additionally, Tron can be rough--in order to beat them, we have to find both a lock piece followed up by enough pressure to kill them before they find their answers.
Have I missed anything?
Also! I'm probably going to start a Discord server for us. Would anyone be interested in that? I figure it's probably a good way to have real-time communication for those of us on the deck.
I joined the Discord server. I've been thinking more recently that I really like how our deck can turn up the heat post board and I am exploring the idea of adding 2-of Dragon Whisperer to our sideboard as an additional threat. Perhaps it's been discussed before, but I see some solid potential here:
- Another 2-CMC spell to fill that part of our curve.
- Can attack under bridge and then be pumped up.
- Can fly when presented with blockers that kill it.
- Dragon engine in super late game, abrade your bridge attack with dragon army.
Now, I'm not saying it's as good as Eidolon, but it's sort of Eidolon #5 and #6 when we swap over to our aggro plan. Has anyone tried it? I'm gonna give it a try today, perhaps on stream too!
Alright guys, I'm interested. How would you say this deck performs compared to other Prison style decks, specifically Lantern? What are this decks weakest matchups?
I think this deck is better in almost every way. First, lantern is one of our best matches. And we can switch gears when we need to. Trying to contain storm and tron is a fools errand, which is the only way lantern and RW Prison can win. Here, we can totally switch gears and be full on aggro post board and sometimes get lucky game one and ride an early rabblemaster to victory. Ending the game by turn 4 is something that's not possible with those other decks. Don't take my word for it. There are many comments on this page from former RW Prison players that tried this and never looked back.
Just finished my stream with Dragon Whisperer. He is exceptionally mediocre. I think the slot is better used by the usual suspects, for myself I think I'll stick with a pair of Molten Rains because I have a deeply sincere hatred for Tron. We lost in the finals to our nemesis Mardu Pyromancer! Curse you! I really don't know how we win that matchup. My strategy is to just turn into a bad aggro deck and hope they mulligan and draw poorly. Even then, I'd put our win-percentage at 10% versus them.
Just finished my stream with Dragon Whisperer. He is exceptionally mediocre. I think the slot is better used by the usual suspects, for myself I think I'll stick with a pair of Molten Rains because I have a deeply sincere hatred for Tron. We lost in the finals to our nemesis Mardu Pyromancer! Curse you! I really don't know how we win that matchup. My strategy is to just turn into a bad aggro deck and hope they mulligan and draw poorly. Even then, I'd put our win-percentage at 10% versus them.
Are you playing two chainwhirler over two magus? That's my immediate first go to build while I test. Also, you have to go aggro vs them. Ditch .okns and bridges. Try that and let me know how it goes
I haven't tried chainwhirler yet, no. I am on the list below, but perhaps you're on to something. I do definitely side out bridges and pretend to be an aggro deck though... to little success. Maybe I'll give the little BDSM Gobbo a try.
Oh by the way, whoever started suggesting Ramunap Ruins in our deck was ahead of the curve. I started testing a few leagues out with 4 in the main and haven't looked back. It's rarely going to win you a game, but the cost is so low that it's basically free percentage points. In 3 leagues I never paid more than 1 life in a single game for the privilege to use them.
Hot take: In a month or two, everyone here will be on 4 Ramunap Ruins.
I agree with chekmate77, Ramunap ruins has a very low cost. The fact of the matter is that unless you have a 2 Ramunap 0 mountain hand, you'll never have to pay more than one life a game on average with the amount of Simian Spirit Guides and rituals in our deck.
Something else that was brought up in a discussion we had: Ash Zealot.
I think we should consider this card if we're going into a meta where we don't expect CoCo decks to be represented. This would take the role of Eidolon of the Great Revel 5-6 in place of Grafdigger's Cage, and would come in against all the same relevant decks sans Dredge (which we're already playing 2-3 Angers for anyways). Against storm, this punishes them for attempting to Past in Flames during their combo; against control decks, it punishes their use of Snapcaster Mage (hell, even more fringe cards like Think Twice, if anyone still plays that); Against one of our worst matchups, Mardu Pyromancer, it punishes the use of Faithless Looting and Lingering Souls, two of their key cards. Considering we're already taking the aggro role in that matchup, this fits in perfectly with our gameplan. This even hits the Faithless Lootings in Hollow One, although I don't think that we'd necessarily be bringing this card in against them, since their Bloodghasts and Phoenixes dodge the damage from Zealot. In addition to all this, it is a 2 mana hasty threat with a relevant keyword that allows it to punch through small creatures.
EDIT: Ash Zealot also punishes the use of Ancient Grudge! This makes it even better against decks like Jund and Hollow One (if we decide to bring it in against that deck).
TL;DR
Against key decks that we want to be aggressive against post-board, Ash Zealot is a better graveyard hate card than Grafdiggers Cage, in the event that you don't expect to see Collected Company decks. This card slots into the aggro gameplan because it has both haste and first strike.
After several people suggested it, I'll be testing ruins as well. Starting with 2 then addig more if it doesn't hurt us too much. I'm excited to get back to testing this week. Starting tomorrow night.
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"Magic is a game of percentages. All you can do is make good decisions that tilt the percentages in your favor. Even the best players in the world can still lose to little Timmy at FNM."
- RogueDecker
- Michael Scott
If you really internalize that, it gets easier to not get so salty about bad beats.
Good hearing from Poptatz again (agree on your thinking on scavenger grounds getting used), and a new face at the campfire is mrflushem - excellent! Obsidian Fireheart has got moxy, but it does take time to grind down a win. (7) mana before he does his first ping from behind a bridge and no way to target creatures in a way that Pia and Kiran or Siege-Gang Commander can do.
Lotta testing of the new cards out there with some differing opinions. I agree with Fluffy's commentary in post # 1832, but differ on Damping Sphere. I think Russ and CashewLoL are right to dismiss this card as self-defeating. If we ever get to a point where we remove our rituals (like my Chandra Unchained 1.0 prototype), then we can consider the sphere.
As for Jim Davis....well, I saw the video. Similar to how MTGsalvation prohibits the bad-mouthing of other Magic decks, I will withhold my opinion of his behavior and his implicit defense of that 'glass cannon' deck. Prison decks cause havoc - that's their job - but, our Pyro components bring interactive threats and alternative win-cons to the table. If folks take issue with Pyro Prison as a slog to face, I would direct their attention to about a 1/2 dozen, tiered masturbatory decks that plague competitive play. But, again, decorum and personal dignity prohibit such a response. So, let's allllll move on from what was certainly a bitter, whiny and disreputable display.
Almost invitational time. I didn't platinum God if War yet, but that stinna have to wait. It's time to start practicing modern and standard. I love all the new voices here. Please, anyone else that is playing this deck, let us know. Add your voice. It's always welcome.
Lastly, someone other than fluffy and me got a 5-0 with out list....it starts. First the forum regulars do well, then others notice and pick it up.....then it gets popular...go go pyro prison!
Until then, I'll be playing in as many GPs as I can hoping to get on camera!
Where's the doubt? For the entirety of 3 games, Jim's spoken commentary jabbed with multiple, unapologetic attacks which were both professional and personal. Like when Jim repeatedly said of one of our kinfolk, "[sic]...my opponent is a jerk". For what? Seemingly, nothing. In fact, the record shows, by Jim's accounting, that the Pyro Prison player was silent throughout their personal chat. Nothing said. So, how is our kin a jerk? He's a jerk by simply being a Pyro Prison player???
Also, Jim repeatedly said "[our deck] is everything that is wrong with Modern today", alongside other caustic remarks.
I tolerate none of it. Shame on Jim Davis.
As far as the whole Jim Davis thing is concerned, I love it. When an opponent goes in tilt, they play worse. He was caught because he was streaming. I wonder how many opponenta have had than same reaction in mtgo but we don't see it. Let's face it, we're playing EVERY card in modern that people hate to play against....blood moon, chalice, bridge, and simian spirit guide. Our deck is busted from every angle and I'm loving every minute of it.
All that said, in person, people are mostly curious and impressed with our deck. Most people haven't played against it and when they lose, it's refreshing to have an opponent cool to losing to a different strategy. I've only had one opponent refuse to shake my hand, just one. So, when your home by yourself on mtgo, I'm sure Jim's reaction is more common, Don't let that stop you from picking this up and giving it for a spin. Remember, don't let people steal your joy, and this deck is hell a fun. What's not fun about riding a turn one rabblemaster to victory?
Also for those out there coming to vegas for the gp next month can we start solving and tuning a list?
I'm going to be tuning my list for the invitational, so stay tuned. I'm away for the weekend, but I'll be back streaming this week.
Tron and other combo....you need pressure and a lock piece. One or the other won't work, but if you had to choose one, I'd go with pressure over a lock piece. For this reason, I agree, eidolona is better than sphere. We don't need sphere. We have lock pieces that donthe same thing, so you're thinking is spot on.
I took an earlier version to this to a PPTQ locally. The entire room basically watched as myself and another opponent grinded out games. The reason the deck caught people's eyes is because my opponent had ulted Liliana of the Veil 3 times and I was still alive. We completely approximately 25 turns in the 10 minutes we had. We entered turns and on the first turn, the opponent topdecked an answer. I smiled and asked if it was the only answer he nodded and I wished him well.
My opponent round 2 incorrectly played not knowing it, even after I literally explained my win condition to him (As in he fetched and had fewer cards left in the deck so I was going to deck him). 5 turns later he hard cast Emrakul instead of going to 8 cards and pitching to cycle. This game had a Chalice on 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. Yep... it was interesting. In Game 3, I get a T2 Blood Moon. My opponent pounds the table, yells in my face how they couldn't believe how lucky I was with an explicit language, gets up and storms off.
This is why I tow a very fine line with tolerating what influence professionals exemplify while playing. I literally had issues the remainder of the tournament after being yelled at like that with stress and a headache. The person was 'removed from the store' but was a regular so no further actions were taken.
@POPTATZ - I would say my list the 75 played by another person that is showing on MTGGoldfish right now is getting fairly optimized. I say this because someone we're not sure who (MrSinister47) took the deck and won. When you start nearing the level of optimization of a deck where someone can pick it up with less experience and win, then you're doing good things. There are variations, so look out for Russ's list also.
I can't comment on how this deck plays as opposed to Sun and Moon or a similar RW prison deck, but we do fare better than decks like Free Win Red. The biggest difference between us and other Red based prison decks is that we have a proactive gameplan, as expert pilot Fluffywolf says so often, and we can change our playstyle based on what we need to do in our matchups. Yes, we can sit behind an Ensnaring Bridge and burn people out with Chandra. Yes, sometimes people scoop to a turn one Blood Moon. But against decks like Storm, every once in a while we put out a turn one Eidolon of the Great Revel followed up by a Goblin Rabblemaster and just win. We have the flexibility to play the control role or the aggro role, which gives us a leg up on more decks than other prison decks.
Our worst matchups tend to be attrition-based decks like Jund and Mardu Pyromancer, and to a lesser extent Abzan. Blood Moon doesn't work very well against Mardu, and Jund has so many answers to our threats and lock pieces that they have game against us no matter what. Additionally, Tron can be rough--in order to beat them, we have to find both a lock piece followed up by enough pressure to kill them before they find their answers.
Have I missed anything?
Also! I'm probably going to start a Discord server for us. Would anyone be interested in that? I figure it's probably a good way to have real-time communication for those of us on the deck.
EDIT: I went ahead and made the server. Feel free to join! Hopefully this will let us communicate on another level.
- Another 2-CMC spell to fill that part of our curve.
- Can attack under bridge and then be pumped up.
- Can fly when presented with blockers that kill it.
- Dragon engine in super late game, abrade your bridge attack with dragon army.
Now, I'm not saying it's as good as Eidolon, but it's sort of Eidolon #5 and #6 when we swap over to our aggro plan. Has anyone tried it? I'm gonna give it a try today, perhaps on stream too!
I think this deck is better in almost every way. First, lantern is one of our best matches. And we can switch gears when we need to. Trying to contain storm and tron is a fools errand, which is the only way lantern and RW Prison can win. Here, we can totally switch gears and be full on aggro post board and sometimes get lucky game one and ride an early rabblemaster to victory. Ending the game by turn 4 is something that's not possible with those other decks. Don't take my word for it. There are many comments on this page from former RW Prison players that tried this and never looked back.
Are you playing two chainwhirler over two magus? That's my immediate first go to build while I test. Also, you have to go aggro vs them. Ditch .okns and bridges. Try that and let me know how it goes
Oh by the way, whoever started suggesting Ramunap Ruins in our deck was ahead of the curve. I started testing a few leagues out with 4 in the main and haven't looked back. It's rarely going to win you a game, but the cost is so low that it's basically free percentage points. In 3 leagues I never paid more than 1 life in a single game for the privilege to use them.
Hot take: In a month or two, everyone here will be on 4 Ramunap Ruins.
Something else that was brought up in a discussion we had: Ash Zealot.
I think we should consider this card if we're going into a meta where we don't expect CoCo decks to be represented. This would take the role of Eidolon of the Great Revel 5-6 in place of Grafdigger's Cage, and would come in against all the same relevant decks sans Dredge (which we're already playing 2-3 Angers for anyways). Against storm, this punishes them for attempting to Past in Flames during their combo; against control decks, it punishes their use of Snapcaster Mage (hell, even more fringe cards like Think Twice, if anyone still plays that); Against one of our worst matchups, Mardu Pyromancer, it punishes the use of Faithless Looting and Lingering Souls, two of their key cards. Considering we're already taking the aggro role in that matchup, this fits in perfectly with our gameplan. This even hits the Faithless Lootings in Hollow One, although I don't think that we'd necessarily be bringing this card in against them, since their Bloodghasts and Phoenixes dodge the damage from Zealot. In addition to all this, it is a 2 mana hasty threat with a relevant keyword that allows it to punch through small creatures.
EDIT: Ash Zealot also punishes the use of Ancient Grudge! This makes it even better against decks like Jund and Hollow One (if we decide to bring it in against that deck).
TL;DR
Against key decks that we want to be aggressive against post-board, Ash Zealot is a better graveyard hate card than Grafdiggers Cage, in the event that you don't expect to see Collected Company decks. This card slots into the aggro gameplan because it has both haste and first strike.