I think if you are using permanents to stop kci, you're doing it wrong. I've played vs this deck a lot and they always win through chalice or eidolon. For our deck, I think surgical extraction is the way to go. It also has other applications, like vs storm and dresge, so it's not completely dead in other matches.
Thanks for the update Ray. Fluff, you shake the haters like none other. Again it was great seeing you killing it on the weekend.
I didn't get the reps I planned to this weekend. Out of the 10 matches I planned to play, I got in 2 hah. 2-0 though in a Friendly. Took down storm and Affinity this morning at 4am before the gym, before work.
Do folks bring in Spyglass against Storm? I didn't this morning, but it brought me back to my first SCG event in Worcester, MA March 2018. Before proceeding to combo off, Paul Muller hit me with the kitchen sink game 3 and he got rid of Chalices and Cages like it was nothing. He used EE in the process. I'm sure it's easy to make room for Spyglass when boarding against Storm, I sided in 10 cards this morning like it was nothing. I was curious if it was worth the spot, over say a Blood Moon or the 3rd Abrade? Is it an auto-include in the match-up, and if so, is it an auto-include b/c cutting off EE has enough impact, or is it auto-include b/c there's less powerful (in the match-up) cards in the main deck?
I assume Storm has 4-6 hate cards for us in the form of Repeal, EE, Wipe Away and Shattering Spree
Building Pyro Prison after watching FluffyWolf2 streams.
Why doesn't the deck run any fetchlands? Thin the deck a little. Watched lots of games where FluffyWolf2 drew lots of lands consecutively.
Even if the Blood Moon hits turn 1 or 2 the mana base just reverts back to mono mountain version.
YES! Another convert! Join us, you won't be disappointed, have lots of fun, and accumulate more treasure chests on MTGO that you'll know what to do with (I'm over 215 chests at the moment).
Fetchlands...quick answer, because sometimes your life total matters. Paying 5% of your life to reduce your deck by 1/53 on average is not a good trade. also, there have been many article over the years about how deck thinning really doesn't matter until you thin 10+ cards. the averages remain relatively the same. That's why Caleb Schere uses a fetchless version of storm, because the thinning is not worth the life loss and he's not wrong.
Anyway, welcome aboard! If you buiil this, let us know how it goes. What questions you got, what's working, what's struggling, etc.. we;ve been able to help several people on this forum with matchups that were previously hard, then with a change of strategy, are now winnable-easy.
astebel, deck thinning is negligible in almost every single deck. YOu don't run fetches to thin your deck, you run them to fix your mana in a consistent way. The advantage we have by playing a painless manabase is greater than the ~7% increase in spells we'd see past turn 10 from running fetches.
Building Pyro Prison after watching FluffyWolf2 streams.
Why doesn't the deck run any fetchlands? Thin the deck a little. Watched lots of games where FluffyWolf2 drew lots of lands consecutively.
Even if the Blood Moon hits turn 1 or 2 the mana base just reverts back to mono mountain version.
YES! Another convert! Join us, you won't be disappointed, have lots of fun, and accumulate more treasure chests on MTGO that you'll know what to do with (I'm over 215 chests at the moment).
Fetchlands...quick answer, because sometimes your life total matters. Paying 5% of your life to reduce your deck by 1/53 on average is not a good trade. also, there have been many article over the years about how deck thinning really doesn't matter until you thin 10+ cards. the averages remain relatively the same. That's why Caleb Schere uses a fetchless version of storm, because the thinning is not worth the life loss and he's not wrong.
Anyway, welcome aboard! If you buiil this, let us know how it goes. What questions you got, what's working, what's struggling, etc.. we;ve been able to help several people on this forum with matchups that were previously hard, then with a change of strategy, are now winnable-easy.
I am a paper player. I had a set of ensnaring bridges and no deck to play them in. Then I saw Pyro Prison. Watched about 12 plus hours of video and said - yup that is a deck I like. Being a Stompy player in legacy sealed the deal as well. Love Chalice!!
I'll stick with the non fetch version, but I'll run snow lands to give the illusion of being Skred.
I think also a split of 2 Damping Sphere and 2 Eidolon in the sb will be good.
Building Pyro Prison after watching FluffyWolf2 streams.
Why doesn't the deck run any fetchlands? Thin the deck a little. Watched lots of games where FluffyWolf2 drew lots of lands consecutively.
Even if the Blood Moon hits turn 1 or 2 the mana base just reverts back to mono mountain version.
Firstly welcome to Red. Secondly your question is a fine one. If you look back in my history of versions to this deck you will even see me play a Charbelcher version with the 21 land package. That one got this question of fetchlands a lot.
Deckbuilding is as narrow or as broad as you make it. A prime example of this is the question on fetchlands. So in our scenario we can run a total of 4 (Arid Mesa, Wooded Foothills, Bloodstained Mire, Scalding Tarn) for a grand total of 16/21 lands. In our current build you would need 10 lands out to draw Glorybringer and up tick with Chandra to cast our only second Goorybringer. So that is extreme but let’s shoot for the stars. That brings our total fetchlands from 16 down to 11. There is a problem though that leaves 7 mountains and 3 Caverns. So shave 3 more. We are now down to 8 fetches. Alright. 8 fetches and 10 lands to fetch. Seems alright.
As an avid scapeshift player there is nothing more then my delight of watching an opponent hit 18 life. This results in a turn faster for that deck. This is also true for aggro strategies.
Our worst matchups include very linear and aggressive decks. Let’s take Burn for example. Over the course of a game with that many fetches you would down your life total by no less then 2. We just gave them a Turn 0 Goblin Guide because of our deckbuilding. Ugh. That feels bad!
So did we come out on top though? With a possible mid game reduction of 4 cards (4 fetches) for 4 life we are now decreasing our chances of drawing a land by approximately (assume 8 (turn 8) cards in and you’ve drawn 4 fetches and fetched out 4 cards)
Draw 9 Fetch version (probability to draw a land): 31.7073%
This assumes you fetched 4 cards out meaning instead of 45 there are 41 cards and the reduction is from 17 to 13 lands.
Draw 9 Fetchless version: 31.7778%
This assumes you have no fetches. 45 cards remain with 17 targets.
This is just one draw deep.
If you draw two cards your probabilities are 53.9024% vs 61.81%. Obviously this is slowly becoming significant but the cost is 4 life. If given 2 draws versus 1 draw you also do the reverse of this with the probability to draw the card you need.
I’m on mobile on my lunch break but wanted to bring it up. I’d keep it fetchless. Maybe I’ll run a league to jam the theoretical max fetches and see how many times we would die to quickly :). I back things with numbers. Don’t think I’m blindly running Glorybringer and Abrades due to success. I’ve run the numbers
Edit. I believe my match checks out but please correct it I am off someone. Tried to do this while stuffing face full of sammich!!
BEATING U/R STORM
@DevtheRevRyan, I researched the last (4) Storm lists on MTGtop8.com --- Only 2 of them ran any cards that would be hit by an 'artifact lockdown piece': a single engineered explosive located in their sideboards. But, since they run Gifts Ungiven as a 4-of & noxious revival, it's almost the same as running (5) Engineered Explosives.
So, to answer your question: whereas Sorcerous Spyglass could be called for, Phyrexian Revoker definitely lands a 2-damage clock which can trade with goblin electromancer. Also, I would definitely bring in (4) Abrade to knock them off their ritual plan (goblin/baral) and clear the way for our attackers.
Blood Moon is a long shot, but not without merit. They generally run only (17) land, (0) fetch, (2) island and (4) manamorphose. Depending on your build, 1-2 moons might stay in.
NEW CARD SUGGESTION: Ghirapur Aether Grid
Since Slag/Anger/Sweltering suns have tailed off in value due to the planeswalker ruling, we are forced to damage planeswalkers the more traditional way: attack. That's one reason I have a high creature count, and ZERO slag/anger/sweltering in my maindeck (there are a couple angers in the sideboard). Simply, I can't run (8) small toughness creatures in the main deck and run sweepers, unless it's bonfire of the damned.
But, what about other options for 1-sided pinging effects. Koth of the Hammer emblem is the king, but it's difficult to deploy. How about Ghirapur Aether Grid ? It wasn't considered before. But, now? I have (11) main deck artifacts and all of them can remain untapped during gameplay. Also, I have (11) more artifacts in the sideboard. Same thing: no need to tap them for them to work. Unlike Walking Ballista, it is easier to 'reload' and it does not conflict with Damping Matrix.
I'd have to do a careful review of how/when this would work in place of pesky 3-cmc, self-defeating sweepers, but there could be something here. I'm looking at G/W VizierCombo, Affinity,Young Pyromancer. 'The Grid' does have a certain charm to it, right??
I'll stick with the non fetch version, but I'll run snow lands to give the illusion of being Skred.
I think also a split of 2 Damping Sphere and 2 Eidolon in the sb will be good.
Bad idea. you'll have more success if you use regular mountains. Why? Because skred plays blood moon. regular mountain on turn one could be anything. scapechift, burn, jeskai, jund, you name it. Snow mountain on turn one tells your opponent they need to fetch basics immediately. Now, if you are playing at a local store and everyone knows you, then the secret is out. If you are at a large event, it's a BIG DEAL. There are a lot of games that I've played in my success with the deck where my opponent fetched two non-basic lands because all they saw were mountains, then BAM, got em!
BEATING U/R STORM
@DevtheRevRyan, I researched the last (4) Storm lists on MTGtop8.com --- Only 2 of them ran any cards that would be hit by an 'artifact lockdown piece': a single engineered explosive located in their sideboards. But, since they run Gifts Ungiven as a 4-of & noxious revival, it's almost the same as running (5) Engineered Explosives.
So, to answer your question: whereas Sorcerous Spyglass could be called for, Phyrexian Revoker definitely lands a 2-damage clock which can trade with goblin electromancer. Also, I would definitely bring in (4) Abrade to knock them off their ritual plan (goblin/baral) and clear the way for our attackers.
Blood Moon is a long shot, but not without merit. They generally run only (17) land, (0) fetch, (2) island and (4) manamorphose. Depending on your build, 1-2 moons might stay in.
NEW CARD SUGGESTION: Ghirapur Aether Grid
Since Slag/Anger/Sweltering suns have tailed off in value due to the planeswalker ruling, we are forced to damage planeswalkers the more traditional way: attack. That's one reason I have a high creature count, and ZERO slag/anger/sweltering in my maindeck (there are a couple angers in the sideboard). Simply, I can't run (8) small toughness creatures in the main deck and run sweepers, unless it's bonfire of the damned.
But, what about other options for 1-sided pinging effects. Koth of the Hammer emblem is the king, but it's difficult to deploy. How about Ghirapur Aether Grid ? It wasn't considered before. But, now? I have (11) main deck artifacts and all of them can remain untapped during gameplay. Also, I have (11) more artifacts in the sideboard. Same thing: no need to tap them for them to work. Unlike Walking Ballista, it is easier to 'reload' and it does not conflict with Damping Matrix.
I'd have to do a careful review of how/when this would work in place of pesky 3-cmc, self-defeating sweepers, but there could be something here. I'm looking at G/W VizierCombo, Affinity,Young Pyromancer. 'The Grid' does have a certain charm to it, right??
I've thought about aether grid, but never had enough artifacts to run it. your build, however, might have enough. you got the 8 lock pieces and a metamorph, revoker, and a skite, right? Combine that with the additional lock pieces from the board and Pia and Kiran's tokens, and we might have a real winner here. a pinging maching can work just like a slagstorm, but better over time and worse on turn three. this is definietly an idea worth testing. Ray, we gotta get you on mtgo so you can test these ideas in real time and not wait for FNM. How do we get you on there?
How much does this deck cost roughly online? I have it in paper for a few months but with my work schedule it's hard to make it to lgs. A few 3-1 records but got my first 4-0 this past Friday. Last oppenent playing titan shift. Turn 1 Blood Moon ended game 3.he was a salty sailor for sure lol. Does anyone else get annoyed when people/oppenent call the deck "free red wins". lol its so much than "free red wins"
Hello again, people. First, i havent been using this site very long, but my god does it just start to poop the bed sometimes when i am typing or building decks...i guess that means i just have to be less long winded.
Anyways, thinking about upcoming cards available to us from dominaria, i wonder what changes, if any, will come to pyro prison.
Skirk Prospector seems perfect for this deck. Coupled with Rabs and Siege-Gang, and I think the clock gets up there. But how does that affect our current build's land count and ritual effects? Hazoret is good, and i suspect still worthy of a MB slot, but I think the goblin clock is a little faster behind a bridge... do we include lords if we go the goblin route? Are there any effective 3-power creatures we could/would include to possibly crew Weatherlight and help us dig for lock pieces? Are any of the Sagas interesting to anyone? Anyone doing any playtesting?
I have been trying goblin chainwhirler in the side and main. I kind of like him. Probably fits better in the side though. Decent to bring in against elves. Young P, souls. It helps our Mardu match a little.
How much does this deck cost roughly online? I have it in paper for a few months but with my work schedule it's hard to make it to lgs. A few 3-1 records but got my first 4-0 this past Friday. Last oppenent playing titan shift. Turn 1 Blood Moon ended game 3.he was a salty sailor for sure lol. Does anyone else get annoyed when people/oppenent call the deck "free red wins". lol its so much than "free red wins"
If you would like to 'reduce the cost' of the deck at all online, you can decide not to go with Eidolon of the Great Revel and do something like the Damping Sphere. It does not apply the pressure you need though so it is a rather large concession. (This is tending towards our sister deck Free Win Red). Just observations, but yea you're looking at $500 to get into the deck online. You can always look at rental services also.
Does it bother me that they think I'm "Free Win Red" Absolutely not, because they are putting me on the wrong deck. The presume my literal only win conditions are Chandra and Koth. Then I show up with Rabble, Pia, Glorybringer, and jaws drop!
Hello again, people. First, i havent been using this site very long, but my god does it just start to poop the bed sometimes when i am typing or building decks...i guess that means i just have to be less long winded.
Anyways, thinking about upcoming cards available to us from dominaria, i wonder what changes, if any, will come to pyro prison.
Skirk Prospector seems perfect for this deck. Coupled with Rabs and Siege-Gang, and I think the clock gets up there. But how does that affect our current build's land count and ritual effects? Hazoret is good, and i suspect still worthy of a MB slot, but I think the goblin clock is a little faster behind a bridge... do we include lords if we go the goblin route? Are there any effective 3-power creatures we could/would include to possibly crew Weatherlight and help us dig for lock pieces? Are any of the Sagas interesting to anyone? Anyone doing any playtesting?
There's not a lot that 'caught my eye' but I'll be trying Karn and I think Dampening Sphere is what we want. As for Skirk Prospector, I'll pass for now. There is a strange balance between Chalice on 1 and 1 CMC spells, and I say this as the guy running Creatures with Bridge. There are random synergies that allow the Creature/Bridge shenanigans to work, the Chalice on 1 really can hose you out, and you're looking to in most blind scenarios jam a Chalice on 1 if given the opportunity. Am I saying it won't work? Naw, give it a go and let us know your results!
Ufta $500?! That's a little steep for my blood lol. Maybe I'll slowly buy into it. And I would definitely get the eidolons. I've been rocking 3 eidolon in the main with decent results. I enjoy the extra SB slots. I used to not agree with damping sphere. But now with magus not in the deck I think 1-2 sphere is where you wanna be.
I disagree with sphere completely in this deck. We already have thinns that do exactly what sphere does in the matches where we would bring apgere in. I don't think it's worth the slots, but I'm very open to being proven wrong.
I don't think sphere is bad, however I do think that because we hit so many bases with the deck already it is not as good as it would be in another deck. I could possibly see it being used if storm, KCI, etc. get too prevalent.
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I didn't get the reps I planned to this weekend. Out of the 10 matches I planned to play, I got in 2 hah. 2-0 though in a Friendly. Took down storm and Affinity this morning at 4am before the gym, before work.
Do folks bring in Spyglass against Storm? I didn't this morning, but it brought me back to my first SCG event in Worcester, MA March 2018. Before proceeding to combo off, Paul Muller hit me with the kitchen sink game 3 and he got rid of Chalices and Cages like it was nothing. He used EE in the process. I'm sure it's easy to make room for Spyglass when boarding against Storm, I sided in 10 cards this morning like it was nothing. I was curious if it was worth the spot, over say a Blood Moon or the 3rd Abrade? Is it an auto-include in the match-up, and if so, is it an auto-include b/c cutting off EE has enough impact, or is it auto-include b/c there's less powerful (in the match-up) cards in the main deck?
I assume Storm has 4-6 hate cards for us in the form of Repeal, EE, Wipe Away and Shattering Spree
Why doesn't the deck run any fetchlands? Thin the deck a little. Watched lots of games where FluffyWolf2 drew lots of lands consecutively.
Even if the Blood Moon hits turn 1 or 2 the mana base just reverts back to mono mountain version.
YES! Another convert! Join us, you won't be disappointed, have lots of fun, and accumulate more treasure chests on MTGO that you'll know what to do with (I'm over 215 chests at the moment).
Fetchlands...quick answer, because sometimes your life total matters. Paying 5% of your life to reduce your deck by 1/53 on average is not a good trade. also, there have been many article over the years about how deck thinning really doesn't matter until you thin 10+ cards. the averages remain relatively the same. That's why Caleb Schere uses a fetchless version of storm, because the thinning is not worth the life loss and he's not wrong.
https://badatcommander.tumblr.com/post/149242922474/how-much-do-fetches-thin-your-deck
Anyway, welcome aboard! If you buiil this, let us know how it goes. What questions you got, what's working, what's struggling, etc.. we;ve been able to help several people on this forum with matchups that were previously hard, then with a change of strategy, are now winnable-easy.
I am a paper player. I had a set of ensnaring bridges and no deck to play them in. Then I saw Pyro Prison. Watched about 12 plus hours of video and said - yup that is a deck I like. Being a Stompy player in legacy sealed the deal as well. Love Chalice!!
I'll stick with the non fetch version, but I'll run snow lands to give the illusion of being Skred.
I think also a split of 2 Damping Sphere and 2 Eidolon in the sb will be good.
Firstly welcome to Red. Secondly your question is a fine one. If you look back in my history of versions to this deck you will even see me play a Charbelcher version with the 21 land package. That one got this question of fetchlands a lot.
Deckbuilding is as narrow or as broad as you make it. A prime example of this is the question on fetchlands. So in our scenario we can run a total of 4 (Arid Mesa, Wooded Foothills, Bloodstained Mire, Scalding Tarn) for a grand total of 16/21 lands. In our current build you would need 10 lands out to draw Glorybringer and up tick with Chandra to cast our only second Goorybringer. So that is extreme but let’s shoot for the stars. That brings our total fetchlands from 16 down to 11. There is a problem though that leaves 7 mountains and 3 Caverns. So shave 3 more. We are now down to 8 fetches. Alright. 8 fetches and 10 lands to fetch. Seems alright.
As an avid scapeshift player there is nothing more then my delight of watching an opponent hit 18 life. This results in a turn faster for that deck. This is also true for aggro strategies.
Our worst matchups include very linear and aggressive decks. Let’s take Burn for example. Over the course of a game with that many fetches you would down your life total by no less then 2. We just gave them a Turn 0 Goblin Guide because of our deckbuilding. Ugh. That feels bad!
So did we come out on top though? With a possible mid game reduction of 4 cards (4 fetches) for 4 life we are now decreasing our chances of drawing a land by approximately (assume 8 (turn 8) cards in and you’ve drawn 4 fetches and fetched out 4 cards)
Draw 9 Fetch version (probability to draw a land): 31.7073%
This assumes you fetched 4 cards out meaning instead of 45 there are 41 cards and the reduction is from 17 to 13 lands.
Draw 9 Fetchless version: 31.7778%
This assumes you have no fetches. 45 cards remain with 17 targets.
This is just one draw deep.
If you draw two cards your probabilities are 53.9024% vs 61.81%. Obviously this is slowly becoming significant but the cost is 4 life. If given 2 draws versus 1 draw you also do the reverse of this with the probability to draw the card you need.
I’m on mobile on my lunch break but wanted to bring it up. I’d keep it fetchless. Maybe I’ll run a league to jam the theoretical max fetches and see how many times we would die to quickly :). I back things with numbers. Don’t think I’m blindly running Glorybringer and Abrades due to success. I’ve run the numbers
Edit. I believe my match checks out but please correct it I am off someone. Tried to do this while stuffing face full of sammich!!
@DevtheRevRyan, I researched the last (4) Storm lists on MTGtop8.com --- Only 2 of them ran any cards that would be hit by an 'artifact lockdown piece': a single engineered explosive located in their sideboards. But, since they run Gifts Ungiven as a 4-of & noxious revival, it's almost the same as running (5) Engineered Explosives.
So, to answer your question: whereas Sorcerous Spyglass could be called for, Phyrexian Revoker definitely lands a 2-damage clock which can trade with goblin electromancer. Also, I would definitely bring in (4) Abrade to knock them off their ritual plan (goblin/baral) and clear the way for our attackers.
OTHER NOTES ON U/R STORM:
NEW CARD SUGGESTION: Ghirapur Aether Grid
Since Slag/Anger/Sweltering suns have tailed off in value due to the planeswalker ruling, we are forced to damage planeswalkers the more traditional way: attack. That's one reason I have a high creature count, and ZERO slag/anger/sweltering in my maindeck (there are a couple angers in the sideboard). Simply, I can't run (8) small toughness creatures in the main deck and run sweepers, unless it's bonfire of the damned.
But, what about other options for 1-sided pinging effects. Koth of the Hammer emblem is the king, but it's difficult to deploy. How about Ghirapur Aether Grid ? It wasn't considered before. But, now? I have (11) main deck artifacts and all of them can remain untapped during gameplay. Also, I have (11) more artifacts in the sideboard. Same thing: no need to tap them for them to work. Unlike Walking Ballista, it is easier to 'reload' and it does not conflict with Damping Matrix.
I'd have to do a careful review of how/when this would work in place of pesky 3-cmc, self-defeating sweepers, but there could be something here. I'm looking at G/W VizierCombo, Affinity, Young Pyromancer. 'The Grid' does have a certain charm to it, right??
Bad idea. you'll have more success if you use regular mountains. Why? Because skred plays blood moon. regular mountain on turn one could be anything. scapechift, burn, jeskai, jund, you name it. Snow mountain on turn one tells your opponent they need to fetch basics immediately. Now, if you are playing at a local store and everyone knows you, then the secret is out. If you are at a large event, it's a BIG DEAL. There are a lot of games that I've played in my success with the deck where my opponent fetched two non-basic lands because all they saw were mountains, then BAM, got em!
I've thought about aether grid, but never had enough artifacts to run it. your build, however, might have enough. you got the 8 lock pieces and a metamorph, revoker, and a skite, right? Combine that with the additional lock pieces from the board and Pia and Kiran's tokens, and we might have a real winner here. a pinging maching can work just like a slagstorm, but better over time and worse on turn three. this is definietly an idea worth testing. Ray, we gotta get you on mtgo so you can test these ideas in real time and not wait for FNM. How do we get you on there?
Anyways, thinking about upcoming cards available to us from dominaria, i wonder what changes, if any, will come to pyro prison.
Skirk Prospector seems perfect for this deck. Coupled with Rabs and Siege-Gang, and I think the clock gets up there. But how does that affect our current build's land count and ritual effects? Hazoret is good, and i suspect still worthy of a MB slot, but I think the goblin clock is a little faster behind a bridge... do we include lords if we go the goblin route? Are there any effective 3-power creatures we could/would include to possibly crew Weatherlight and help us dig for lock pieces? Are any of the Sagas interesting to anyone? Anyone doing any playtesting?
Deck is approximately $500 online. Example of recent winning deck:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1051346#online
If you would like to 'reduce the cost' of the deck at all online, you can decide not to go with Eidolon of the Great Revel and do something like the Damping Sphere. It does not apply the pressure you need though so it is a rather large concession. (This is tending towards our sister deck Free Win Red). Just observations, but yea you're looking at $500 to get into the deck online. You can always look at rental services also.
Does it bother me that they think I'm "Free Win Red" Absolutely not, because they are putting me on the wrong deck. The presume my literal only win conditions are Chandra and Koth. Then I show up with Rabble, Pia, Glorybringer, and jaws drop!
There's not a lot that 'caught my eye' but I'll be trying Karn and I think Dampening Sphere is what we want. As for Skirk Prospector, I'll pass for now. There is a strange balance between Chalice on 1 and 1 CMC spells, and I say this as the guy running Creatures with Bridge. There are random synergies that allow the Creature/Bridge shenanigans to work, the Chalice on 1 really can hose you out, and you're looking to in most blind scenarios jam a Chalice on 1 if given the opportunity. Am I saying it won't work? Naw, give it a go and let us know your results!