What are you guys talking about? This Bolas ROCKS! Comes in at a reasonable casting cost, protects himself, draws cards while discarding opponent cards (or even exiling permanents if they don't have cards) and his ultimate says "win the game". Also, Play him alongside Jace, 2 brainstorms in 1 turn.
I think its teferi pushing the bar upwards that makes even this decent bolas feel inadequate. I mean, 3WU vs RBBBU. Draw and untap 2 vs draw and oppo discard is pretty even, but I'd prefer to untap in a reactive deck, plus the discard could be irrelevant in the mid to late game. Teferi's minus deals with everything, including indestructible permanents, which will then have to dodge counterspells. bolas only deals with creatures and pw, altho he does do the job permanently. Both ultimates are pretty much on par, since they both spell GG.
So what bolas has going for him is that static ability. If you cast bolas after teferi, you could do anything he can. The downside? Your manabase has to produce RBBBU, while the UW deck can field playsets of Field of Ruin and truckloads of basics.
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Dovin's Veto is another slap in the face unfortately. a complete, huge, slap. Sure, give the tier 1 control deck ANOTHER overpowered toy.
i'm so pissed.
i cant really tell how large the impact will be, but Veto will loose us a lot of games to UW/Jeskai Control, both of which were fantastic matchups until now. this is very very bad news.
i fear bolas restrictive mana cost will make him unplayable alongside cryptic. it'll have to be a predominantly black list. Straight Grixis midrange probably.
Damn would it kill them to support UB for friggin ONCE.
Edit: i can see bolas working in a very discard-heavy shell. curve inquisition into Rise/Fall into lily/kcommand etc? maybe.
the problem is the ONLY thing that makes 5cmc teferi playable is its tacked-on unttap ability which makes it cost 3cmc the turn it is cast and nets a huge amount of mana over time. bolas will likely choke on that front and die horribly in a format too fast for him.
eff me, that casting cost is just so ridiculous. its stupid. just retarded
Dovin's Veto is another slap in the face unfortately. a complete, huge, slap. Sure, give the tier 1 control deck ANOTHER overpowered toy.
The worst thing in my opinion is that Veto not only pushes UWX ahead, it pushes anything else Control out.
Angrath's Rampage looks allright, but we already have K-Command and Dreabore, which both do a better job in my opinion.It is also outclassed by Lilianas Triumph.
some pple are saying that Dovin's Veto's white requirement is a real issue in UW since its mana base is stretched thin on a ton of basics, utility lands and heavy blue requirements, and in that respect Veto is actually strictly worse than Negate. there's only a handful of matchups where "uncounterable" is relevant (blue control mirrors, temur scapeshift, Ux Living End). in every matchup where white is the important color (white removal for aggro, white graveyardhate, etc).
the power difference is smaller, but Negate vs Countersquall isn't a done deal either.
but as a sideboard card... looking over current list, it'll be 2 Vetos minimum post board, which is... scary
another thing to consider is the possible reprint of a) Counterspell and b) Baleful Strix. that should shake things up a fair bit
It feels rather strange to say a deck is stretched on colors when it’s only a two color deck, isn’t maximizing the number of dual lands, and is deck sifting well. Veto’s white requirement isn’t much of a disadvantage, especially if you’re using the spell to stop bombs instead of using it to stop other counterspells. I would venture that those saying it’s a real issue that it costs White are in the minority.
This is the Grixis thread, right? We have much steeper color requirements depending on the list.
Countersquall certainly similar, but I don’t think it’s a real comparison. 2 life loss is virtually meaningless when you’re trying to gain control and then kill your opponent. Squall isn’t going to make GDS reconsider that T1 fetch-shock-seize so the life loss isn’t huge. Absorb is seeing some light play because the life gain extends the game, control wants that; life loss means nothing unless you’re going the burn/control route (which is valid, but not always the choice made) because you’re looking to close the game out on another 6+ turns.
Compare that to Veto where the additional text actually makes a difference. Uncounterable is a real advantage against certain decks (see Grixis-control.thread) because it makes it incredibly difficult to resolve non-creature threats. You really do have to rely on discard in a big way and it’s worrisome.
Counterspell would be awesome, it would obviously help Grixis a ton, we just got essentially Diabolical Edict, and while I doubt Baleful Strix... it could happen with UW getting these toys, I could see them trying to aim UB at destroying creature decks and UW at destroying control.
Thank you for listening to my silly bus ride thoughts.
Because of Dovins Veto, do y'all think remand deserves a spot in the main board?
why would Veto make Remand better? (if you think it works on veto because it returns, that, alas, isnt how it works ;). "return to hand" is a replacement effect for "counter target spell")
I posted this several months ago when I started it (last summer), and I'm thinking now is a good time to give an update on my little spreadsheet. I won't go into the results themselves, i think they're pretty self-explanatory, a few words on the quality of the recorded matches: most of them are paper, but there are Cockatrice matches in there too. I know a lot of pple look down on that (understandably). So this is NOT a representative spreadsheet for high-level pro events. Its just a personal pointer for me to place my list in the metagame, record sideboard plans and optimize from there, which is why I prefer sample size over sample quality.
One important thing: this spreadsheet operates inside its own sample-metagame, which is why decks like Izzet Phoenix or Dredge have hardly caught on, I simply havent faced them (I took a break the last 3 months, so pretty much the time Izzet Phoenix became a thing). The advantage is that I always know the context of my win-loss rate, the downside is it doesn't really translate to the "real" metagame online and at pro events.
My main take-aways:
1) Spreadsheets like this are extremely helpful to optimize precise sideboarding and also to save time when you dont know every sb plan by heart.
2) It gives a really good sense where the deck is at in the meta, so you're not testing around in the dark.
3) Its extremely hard to get a sample large enough to be statistically meaningful for individual matchups. Which is why evaluating individual matchups should be primarily tied to personal experience with navigating them. The numbers only serve to paint a larger picture.
4) It does give a nice sense what kind of deck in broad terms my list is struggeling against, and where it is stronger.
Hope this is of interest to some of you
PS: If anybody has similar data on their testing, pls do share it
PPS: Link to the deck list is on top of the spread sheet!
I feel that the whole debate on Dovin's Veto might incline us to pack some discard again. I have been waiving them in the past, but right now I feel that some Inquisitions (or even Duress in the SB) might bring some benefits. IN addition, these cards IMO represent the black color identity pretty well, so I enjoy playing them.
Oh and on the Countersquall matter: I am currently running Gods_Shadow's list including Squalls and Ionize main. The damage really adds up and can net you a not-so-insignificant amount of wins in combination with bolts and creature beats (especially Obstructionist being a flying Lightning Bolt).
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Currently playing: Modern: Esper/Azorius Control UBW Pauper: UB Reanimator UB UR Control UR Pauper Commander: Stormchaser Mage UR Sedraxis Specter UBR Nightveil Predator UB Artisan of Kozilek C
I feel that the whole debate on Dovin's Veto might incline us to pack some discard again. I have been waiving them in the past, but right now I feel that some Inquisitions (or even Duress in the SB) might bring some benefits. IN addition, these cards IMO represent the black color identity pretty well, so I enjoy playing them.
Oh and on the Countersquall matter: I am currently running Gods_Shadow's list including Squalls and Ionize main. The damage really adds up and can net you a not-so-insignificant amount of wins in combination with bolts and creature beats (especially Obstructionist being a flying Lightning Bolt).
I think the main question to ask in regards to discard and being mainly B is why not go towards the Death's Shadow road then? What are the advantages of going midrange without DS?
i guess the easiest answer to that question would be that you dont have to tank your life total to make the deck work.
GDS trades life total for tempo and pure card quality and an incredibly low curve, meaning less "air" in lands. it functions through strong, overarching synergies.
the question is wether there's a list out there thats primarily black, discard-centered, and top out with new Bolas without being a) worse GDS or b) worse BGx.
I imagine it might be somewhat close to God's_Shadow's list because baby-jace is great with discard (and a generally more sorcery-speed-centered game plan).
I imagine it might be somewhat close to God's_Shadow's list because baby-jace is great with discard (and a generally more sorcery-speed-centered game plan).
Yeah, that might be a way to go. The inclusion of 1-2 Dreadbore could also be a thing with regard to the upcoming PW-heavy set.
Oh, the reason for me why I am not playing GDS over Control is that I simply don't want to. GDS plays a totally different game of magic, with its ups and downs of course. In my case however, I just want to play Control even though it might not be the "strongest" Grixis deck right now.
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Currently playing: Modern: Esper/Azorius Control UBW Pauper: UB Reanimator UB UR Control UR Pauper Commander: Stormchaser Mage UR Sedraxis Specter UBR Nightveil Predator UB Artisan of Kozilek C
This is what I've come up with after a few test drives with raw piles. Started out with Rise/Fall in there too, but too much sorcery speed is hard to handle. 4 Dispel is just a placeholder for some more nuanced choices
Note: 1x Faithless Looting comes at almost no cost and is great at cleaning up our draws later in the game.
Nice list, how has it been running? I'm digging the creature package with jace and bolas. Any thoughts on night spellbomb main board?
What do you think about Liliana of the veil and the new instant edict?
i think this card is super interesting. brainstorm:
against LD decks (targeting acid moss must be fun). in counter wars, its basically a counterspell + remand for uu which is insane. remanding trophy/pulse vs gbx to kill their lily/goyf etc. and dont get me started on targeting larger spells.
cryptic. cathartic reunion (lol!!!), past in flames, gifts ungiven etc etc
I think its teferi pushing the bar upwards that makes even this decent bolas feel inadequate. I mean, 3WU vs RBBBU. Draw and untap 2 vs draw and oppo discard is pretty even, but I'd prefer to untap in a reactive deck, plus the discard could be irrelevant in the mid to late game. Teferi's minus deals with everything, including indestructible permanents, which will then have to dodge counterspells. bolas only deals with creatures and pw, altho he does do the job permanently. Both ultimates are pretty much on par, since they both spell GG.
So what bolas has going for him is that static ability. If you cast bolas after teferi, you could do anything he can. The downside? Your manabase has to produce RBBBU, while the UW deck can field playsets of Field of Ruin and truckloads of basics.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
i'm so pissed.
i cant really tell how large the impact will be, but Veto will loose us a lot of games to UW/Jeskai Control, both of which were fantastic matchups until now. this is very very bad news.
i fear bolas restrictive mana cost will make him unplayable alongside cryptic. it'll have to be a predominantly black list. Straight Grixis midrange probably.
Damn would it kill them to support UB for friggin ONCE.
Edit: i can see bolas working in a very discard-heavy shell. curve inquisition into Rise/Fall into lily/kcommand etc? maybe.
the problem is the ONLY thing that makes 5cmc teferi playable is its tacked-on unttap ability which makes it cost 3cmc the turn it is cast and nets a huge amount of mana over time. bolas will likely choke on that front and die horribly in a format too fast for him.
eff me, that casting cost is just so ridiculous. its stupid. just retarded
The only "issue" is the tribble black regiquerment, but I think it gives us an opportunity for an discard Grixis Control deck
thought about the following list:
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Plainswalker:
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God
4 Opt
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Serum Vision
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Rise // Fall
I would love to play 1-2 Terminate or Dreadbore, or even the new Angrath's Rampage would be nice, but what to cut :S
I really like playing Nicol Bolas. the Ravager paired with Kolaghan's Command..great combo with the pontential of double discard.
What do you guys think about this list? any tips or changes I could make?
Edit: what if I cut 4 opt for 2 search for azscanta, 1 terminate/dreabore and 1 shadow of doubt? ...or even 4 ancestral vision?
The worst thing in my opinion is that Veto not only pushes UWX ahead, it pushes anything else Control out.
Angrath's Rampage looks allright, but we already have K-Command and Dreabore, which both do a better job in my opinion.It is also outclassed by Lilianas Triumph.
the power difference is smaller, but Negate vs Countersquall isn't a done deal either.
but as a sideboard card... looking over current list, it'll be 2 Vetos minimum post board, which is... scary
another thing to consider is the possible reprint of a) Counterspell and b) Baleful Strix. that should shake things up a fair bit
This is the Grixis thread, right? We have much steeper color requirements depending on the list.
Countersquall certainly similar, but I don’t think it’s a real comparison. 2 life loss is virtually meaningless when you’re trying to gain control and then kill your opponent. Squall isn’t going to make GDS reconsider that T1 fetch-shock-seize so the life loss isn’t huge. Absorb is seeing some light play because the life gain extends the game, control wants that; life loss means nothing unless you’re going the burn/control route (which is valid, but not always the choice made) because you’re looking to close the game out on another 6+ turns.
Compare that to Veto where the additional text actually makes a difference. Uncounterable is a real advantage against certain decks (see Grixis-control.thread) because it makes it incredibly difficult to resolve non-creature threats. You really do have to rely on discard in a big way and it’s worrisome.
Counterspell would be awesome, it would obviously help Grixis a ton, we just got essentially Diabolical Edict, and while I doubt Baleful Strix... it could happen with UW getting these toys, I could see them trying to aim UB at destroying creature decks and UW at destroying control.
Thank you for listening to my silly bus ride thoughts.
"Reveal a Dragon"
why would Veto make Remand better? (if you think it works on veto because it returns, that, alas, isnt how it works ;). "return to hand" is a replacement effect for "counter target spell")
I posted this several months ago when I started it (last summer), and I'm thinking now is a good time to give an update on my little spreadsheet. I won't go into the results themselves, i think they're pretty self-explanatory, a few words on the quality of the recorded matches: most of them are paper, but there are Cockatrice matches in there too. I know a lot of pple look down on that (understandably). So this is NOT a representative spreadsheet for high-level pro events. Its just a personal pointer for me to place my list in the metagame, record sideboard plans and optimize from there, which is why I prefer sample size over sample quality.
One important thing: this spreadsheet operates inside its own sample-metagame, which is why decks like Izzet Phoenix or Dredge have hardly caught on, I simply havent faced them (I took a break the last 3 months, so pretty much the time Izzet Phoenix became a thing). The advantage is that I always know the context of my win-loss rate, the downside is it doesn't really translate to the "real" metagame online and at pro events.
My main take-aways:
1) Spreadsheets like this are extremely helpful to optimize precise sideboarding and also to save time when you dont know every sb plan by heart.
2) It gives a really good sense where the deck is at in the meta, so you're not testing around in the dark.
3) Its extremely hard to get a sample large enough to be statistically meaningful for individual matchups. Which is why evaluating individual matchups should be primarily tied to personal experience with navigating them. The numbers only serve to paint a larger picture.
4) It does give a nice sense what kind of deck in broad terms my list is struggeling against, and where it is stronger.
Hope this is of interest to some of you
PS: If anybody has similar data on their testing, pls do share it
PPS: Link to the deck list is on top of the spread sheet!
Oh and on the Countersquall matter: I am currently running Gods_Shadow's list including Squalls and Ionize main. The damage really adds up and can net you a not-so-insignificant amount of wins in combination with bolts and creature beats (especially Obstructionist being a flying Lightning Bolt).
Modern: Esper/Azorius Control UBW
Pauper: UB Reanimator UB UR Control UR
Pauper Commander: Stormchaser Mage UR Sedraxis Specter UBR Nightveil Predator UB Artisan of Kozilek C
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
GDS trades life total for tempo and pure card quality and an incredibly low curve, meaning less "air" in lands. it functions through strong, overarching synergies.
the question is wether there's a list out there thats primarily black, discard-centered, and top out with new Bolas without being a) worse GDS or b) worse BGx.
I imagine it might be somewhat close to God's_Shadow's list because baby-jace is great with discard (and a generally more sorcery-speed-centered game plan).
so:
2-3x baby-jace
2x LotV
2x Bolas
4x Snap
3x KCommand
1-2x Rise/Fall
4-6x 1cmc discard
4x bolt
4push/terminate
and so on. maybe
Yeah, that might be a way to go. The inclusion of 1-2 Dreadbore could also be a thing with regard to the upcoming PW-heavy set.
Oh, the reason for me why I am not playing GDS over Control is that I simply don't want to. GDS plays a totally different game of magic, with its ups and downs of course. In my case however, I just want to play Control even though it might not be the "strongest" Grixis deck right now.
Modern: Esper/Azorius Control UBW
Pauper: UB Reanimator UB UR Control UR
Pauper Commander: Stormchaser Mage UR Sedraxis Specter UBR Nightveil Predator UB Artisan of Kozilek C
1x Tasigur, the golden Fang
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (5)
3x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2x Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God
Instants (16)
1x Countersquall
2x Fatal Push
3x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Logic Knot
2x Opt
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
1x Terminate
Sorcery (10)
1x Collective Brutality
1x Faithless Looting
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
2x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Dragonskull SUmmit
1x Drowned Catacomb
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
1x Steam Vents
3x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Izzet Staticaster
4x Dispel
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Collective Brutality
This is what I've come up with after a few test drives with raw piles. Started out with Rise/Fall in there too, but too much sorcery speed is hard to handle. 4 Dispel is just a placeholder for some more nuanced choices
Note: 1x Faithless Looting comes at almost no cost and is great at cleaning up our draws later in the game.
What do you think about Liliana of the veil and the new instant edict?
i think this card is super interesting. brainstorm:
against LD decks (targeting acid moss must be fun). in counter wars, its basically a counterspell + remand for uu which is insane. remanding trophy/pulse vs gbx to kill their lily/goyf etc. and dont get me started on targeting larger spells.
cryptic. cathartic reunion (lol!!!), past in flames, gifts ungiven etc etc
this has real potential in my opinion