I think those are some super great suggestions, and can help us to play to the board more. You make an awesome point that we still do have an engine, the cool thing about mardu is they go looting into souls, into reveler, which gives them more lootings and more souls. We have Kommand getting snapcaster, rebuying it or bouncing it with cryptic. I think the difference is they are adding more power to the table while we are generating value and being more controlling. Is talrand, sky summoner unplayable? What is the mana cost we consider when considering adding cards to the deck? I know at 4 mana he's competing with cryptic command which is a pretty big deal. If talrand, sky summoner is not playable, even though I might put him akin to the scorpion god in godshadow's list, is evacuation a card we want? It helps us to stabilize the board, bounce snap, rebuy more value?
RE:Talrand
The issue with Talrand isn't that he competes with Cryptic. PKN and JTMS also compete, but they have been used in successful decks. The issue is he's a sorcery speed threat that should be coming down *before* you expend cantrips and spells, but his position on the curve doesn't gel with that. Pyromancer by comparison comes down about as early as such a value creature can. If you look at Monastery Mentor, there's a card that is arguably as powerful as Talrand, and 1 mana cheaper, and still doesn't make the cut into modern. This is also linked to why he can't be compared to Scorpion God, because the pseudo animator generates value from your GY, while Talrand generates value from your hand, and in the late game, there are generally more resources where?
RE: Mardu Pyromancer
The thing about Mardu is that its a proactive deck that doesn't interact beyond bolting creatures and proactive discard, which has some limitations. It fares better in the current aggressive meta because Young Pyro as a proactive play lets them survive Hollow Ones and then turn around. Its also the reason I wanted to fit more Young Pyros in; Young Pyro is bad in a meta full of instant speed removal, but people mostly want to do their own thing at the moment. Now, faithless into souls means they only have 2 spells at best in their GY, looting itself + the other card, assuming they threw down a spell. Any bolts, pushes and terminates they throw in are gone for good. They can't snap those back if they need them later. Their strategy is to just trade and press "1-for-1/value with souls" their way through brutally, and pull ahead with Reveler when out of gas.
Grixis is more measured and values choice over quantity - Opt, Serum Visions and Kommand all give us control over our card quality. We also interact on the stack, meaning we don't have as hard a time with TKS, smasher, reshaper, collected company, planeswalkers, because we get to kill these value plays while they're on the stack - the only time they can be interacted with profitably.
RE: Evacuation
I presume this is for the sideboard. I'm not sure this will ever be better than Damnation, because if you're really wanting to clear the board, why not pay 1 mana less for a more permanent solution? Getting a snap back doesn't really convince me enough. Cryptic Command does a close enough approximation of this (tap opposition and bounce snap) while also being able to do other stuff.
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Hello everyone!
I dont usually post in here, but i've been lurking arround for a long time, and playing the deck as well. First of all, thanks to Shadow for being as kind as to share his thoughts and advancements on the list. Its always nice to get insights from someone as good as you.
What I came here to discuss is the m19 dragon. Ofc not mr bolas, but rather Bone Dragon, as a substitution for Tasigur. Why, you ask? Because it is an instant speed threat which cannot be countered, and also happens to be card-free.
The part I am not sure about is how do we get him into the graveyard, and if we need to.
I was pondering about a few brutalities main, just to help us both put Bone Dragon in the grave while helping our aggro matchups a little bit, which will certainly suffer if we cant play a turn 2 4/5.
Had anyone else been thinking about that card? Am i the only mad enough?
If you're comparing Tasigur to Bone Dragon, I'm afraid to say Tasigur is way way way better. Looking that activation cost, you're "delving" 7 and paying 5, as though the cost were 10BB. That's quite the amount of resources. I'm sure this was meant to be a recurring threat in standard, but this 5/4 flier for 5 that can recur for 5 plus delve 5 is not modern playable. Tasigur can come down early and block, can come down for 1 and leave up interaction, can generate card advantage. There is no comparison.
If I had an excess of 7 cards in the GY? I'd try to end the game on the opponent's end step with Empty the pits. If you have 7 cards and 5 mana that's 4 2/2 tokens, which is a superior threat to the opponent than a single target. It would not be uncommon to simply win the game
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying its better than banana king. I just say he comes in at instant speed and that is something i've been looking for a long time. In control games it is very relevant to be able to make something instant speed, otherwise you are just left there waiting until the guy at the other side of the table finds his secure the wastes, which you have to counter in your end step, to later land a teferi and run away with the game. It fulfills a different role, one which i could not find something to put. If you happen to know any good instant finisher, such as secure, please do tell me (and dont say gearhulk, tried it, wont work, too easy to counter)
Heh, I just mentioned an instant speed wincon (like secure) in my initial reply yea? Just note that its heavy on Black. Empty the Pits
If you're having difficulty in the control MU, Vendilion cliques are pretty prime in that. Info, "discard" and clock in one package, and all on their end step.
Tasigur doesn't have instant speed but he only costs B. So....... the speed is kinda irrelevant there. Comes down early enough to be relevant against Hollow One, Swiftspears, and Tron.
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what constitutes an acceptable win percentage for you guys? the way i test right now is tweak a few slots and then give it 100 competitive matches to arrive at an overall winrate. the sample is way too small to make strong statements about individual matchups (the most i've faced a deck out of 100 is 9 or so).
i tested jace this way, with a rather disappointing win rate of 56%.
my current test card is young pyromancer as a 2of, and my win rate is 64% after 100 matches.
how satisfied would you be with this?
Well your learning curve after each tweak forms a part of that 100 games, so I would actually assume that the next 100 games afterward your number should improve. a 56% with a control deck is perfectly fine in a blind meta. 64% actually means the current style of control is favored.
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@TheAlexGnan: Is that 64% game win rate or match win rate? Either way, 64% in a competitive environment (e.g. competitive league, modern challenge, scg IQ) is a pretty good win rate. I use those events as examples because there is a very high chance each match involves a tiered decked played by a good player. Although people can spike from time to time to do well in a tournament, if you factor in the times they don't perform, they usually land around that area. 50% is literally an average showing.
@TheAlexGnan: Is that 64% game win rate or match win rate? Either way, 64% in a competitive environment (e.g. competitive league, modern challenge, scg IQ) is a pretty good win rate. I use those events as examples because there is a very high chance each match involves a tiered decked played by a good player. Although people can spike from time to time to do well in a tournament, if you factor in the times they don't perform, they usually land around that area. 50% is literally an average showing.
@TheAlexGnan: Is that 64% game win rate or match win rate? Either way, 64% in a competitive environment (e.g. competitive league, modern challenge, scg IQ) is a pretty good win rate. I use those events as examples because there is a very high chance each match involves a tiered decked played by a good player. Although people can spike from time to time to do well in a tournament, if you factor in the times they don't perform, they usually land around that area. 50% is literally an average showing.
that bolas build is very interesting... but intuitively, it looks a little too fragile for a curve topper....
I don't understand why people keep saying this? Its a 4 cmc 4/4 flier that strips a card, not unlike Thought Knot seer, except in exchange for not being able to be cheated out with Temples or targeted discard, Bolas does not return a card when killed, he flies, and he can upgrade. If allowed to resolve and then removed, he is a 2-for-1. If allowed to continue, he can deal lethal as a dragon or just become a PW and win. Perhaps the worst scenario for him is being countered.
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@TheAlexGnan: Is that 64% game win rate or match win rate? Either way, 64% in a competitive environment (e.g. competitive league, modern challenge, scg IQ) is a pretty good win rate. I use those events as examples because there is a very high chance each match involves a tiered decked played by a good player. Although people can spike from time to time to do well in a tournament, if you factor in the times they don't perform, they usually land around that area. 50% is literally an average showing.
that bolas build is very interesting... but intuitively, it looks a little too fragile for a curve topper....
I don't understand why people keep saying this? Its a 4 cmc 4/4 flier that strips a card, not unlike Thought Knot seer, except in exchange for not being able to be cheated out with Temples or targeted discard, Bolas does not return a card when killed, he flies, and he can upgrade. If allowed to resolve and then removed, he is a 2-for-1. If allowed to continue, he can deal lethal as a dragon or just become a PW and win. Perhaps the worst scenario for him is being countered.
Different views on the new Bolas are due to different expectations I believe. If he's played like a value creature then sure, he's a 2 for 1 when resolved, he's certainly valuable in that regard. But for 4 mana, we can resolve a JTMS that is also a sure 2 for 1, does different things, and can be lethal if allowed to continue. There must be a reason why he's played and the deck has proven to some level of success though, just hope that it truly helps the Grixis shell. Certainly something worth testing though.
what constitutes an acceptable win percentage for you guys? the way i test right now is tweak a few slots and then give it 100 competitive matches to arrive at an overall winrate. the sample is way too small to make strong statements about individual matchups (the most i've faced a deck out of 100 is 9 or so).
i tested jace this way, with a rather disappointing win rate of 56%.
my current test card is young pyromancer as a 2of, and my win rate is 64% after 100 matches.
how satisfied would you be with this?
64% is a very good win rate IMHO, could you please also share with us how you use JTMS v.s. Pyromancer, i.e. do you play on curve, how often you side them out etc. As we can observe, the Grixis lists out there that are yielding results recently don't playing JTMS, some are using AV as a draw engine, some are playing azcanta only.
4 black does not really seem like an actuall option, or do you regularily hit BBBB as consistently as w?
BBBB is a long shot yes, but its a very late game card, as late as Bone Dragon which was the comparison. Except, Empty produces multiple threats which can't be dealt with using spot removal, and it scales with the GY. Getting to BBBB shouldn't be a priority for a grixis control deck running empty, because you'll eventually start fetching the second watery, the bloodcrypt and swamp.
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the comparison to Thought knot Seer doesnt work for 1 reason: the discard is random. and that difference is essential. even if tks dies, he will still have removed opp strongest card. Bolas removes opp weakest card, which is worth almost nothing.
2for1s generally have different qualities, and Bolas' 2for1 is arguably the worst kind. Sometimes opp will be empty handed (burn, affinity), and somtimes discard of their choice even helps them (souls, looting, griselbrand etc.
its also not comperable to kommand's random discard because being instant speed gives it huge utility in a number of matchups.
When TKS dies he lets the opponent draw, lets not conveniently skip over that downside shall we? You could argue that TKS targets quality while Bolas hit quantity.
If you cast Bolas and the oppo's hand is already empty, I'm not sure that's something to complain about. you're probably going to win.
Bolas' discard actually helping the opponent is something to think about. But we're not ramping him out, so he won't see action until turn 4. So its not like you're helping them dump bloodghasts in that point of time. Helping them dump souls at that point in time is not helping them either, its reducing the number of spirit tokens you will have to deal with - 2 instead of 4. Looting, likewise you've taken away 1 cast trigger and 1 looting. Just because looting is a secondary choice for voluntary discard doesn't mean it's "better" in the graveyard. Its just that if there are no bloodghasts or prized amalgams in hand (I play BR Hollow one so I'm drawing reference from there), then at least looting can still be recast from the GY, as opposed to dropping your Anglers or bolts which will just be dead.
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We can compare new Bolas to TKS all we want, but it doesn't really mean much unless we start warping our manabase to run TKS. More relevant question is when do we like Bolas over Pia and Kiraan Nalaar, the go to 4-drop for most URx players for a while?
P&K is very similar to Bolas. It's got the same stats spread out over 3 bodies and avoids being 1-for-1ed. But it's more flexible in the midgame with the sac ability where Bolas nearly wins the game if you somehow have 7 mana at sorcery speed. I can't think of a match up where you can reliably get to a point where you have 7 mana and nothing to do with it. Also, I wouldn't want to try to activate this without counter backup so that's closer to 9 mana. I think the flexibility that P&K offers is more important in most match ups.
It's a pretty standard list, I saw it various times in the forum. I don't understand the 2x fulminator mage on the sideboard with 4 field of ruin main
Question for both of you:
1.are you running 25 lands? does the land count really make sense to you?
2.do you feel 4x field of ruin is a bit too much?
3.is thought scour really a necessity to play with tasigur?
I personally prefer this list btw: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1177779#online
jace over vendilion, and 2x tarpit instead of only a singleton. but they both ran 25 lands and full set thought scour on top of full set field of ruin, that really makes me wonder....
Just because I'm a spice addict, I decided my 4 pyromancer, 2 claim/fame, 1 JVP list wasn't hot enough. I now want to add 1x Gifts Ungiven as my top end or possibly midrange play, and do naughty things like Snapcaster/Claim/Kommand/Pyro, or Snapcaster/claim/Kommand/thing-I-really-want, or just Snap/Claim/JVP/Kommand for max grind.
I wanna know what gifts packages you might have assembled in the past that worked for you.
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If you want to run Gifts, a singleton Torrential Gearhulk could be what you want.
You're right, Gearhulking a gifts sounds beautiful. My only issue with that is my curve, my top end apart from gifts is 2 Cryptics. I shaved 2 Kommands for Claims instead. Overall, my curve is a lot lower and its supported by 21 lands. Hitting 6 will happen statistically later for me than the typical 23, and definitely later than 25 land lists.
If I end up raising my curve or landcount later, gearhulk is definitely an option I will consider. Thanks!
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It's a pretty standard list, I saw it various times in the forum. I don't understand the 2x fulminator mage on the sideboard with 4 field of ruin main
Question for both of you:
1.are you running 25 lands? does the land count really make sense to you?
2.do you feel 4x field of ruin is a bit too much?
3.is thought scour really a necessity to play with tasigur?
I personally prefer this list btw: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1177779#online
jace over vendilion, and 2x tarpit instead of only a singleton. but they both ran 25 lands and full set thought scour on top of full set field of ruin, that really makes me wonder....
I said because of corey's list and didn't really brought something new and I think both list you shared are essential the same, the changes are according to play style, metagame, etc. you still have the same number of lands, spell and threats, they are just tweaked differently.
thought isn't just for tasigur is more a question of speed, it accelerates azcanta and makes a earlier snapcaster better. but if you prefer serum or removal in is place it's still valid.
about the field of ruins, when corey run 4 he said it was in place of serum vision, I think it was at the pro tour. In the same pro tour, andrew cuneo who play test with corey played this list (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/923116#paper), he run 2 serum visions instead of the 4th azcanta.
I also like jace in the main deck, just fact I can tut for it as finisher with azcanta makes me want to play it. I also like having explosives main, can tut for it and is a versatile answer
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RE:Talrand
The issue with Talrand isn't that he competes with Cryptic. PKN and JTMS also compete, but they have been used in successful decks. The issue is he's a sorcery speed threat that should be coming down *before* you expend cantrips and spells, but his position on the curve doesn't gel with that. Pyromancer by comparison comes down about as early as such a value creature can. If you look at Monastery Mentor, there's a card that is arguably as powerful as Talrand, and 1 mana cheaper, and still doesn't make the cut into modern. This is also linked to why he can't be compared to Scorpion God, because the pseudo animator generates value from your GY, while Talrand generates value from your hand, and in the late game, there are generally more resources where?
RE: Mardu Pyromancer
The thing about Mardu is that its a proactive deck that doesn't interact beyond bolting creatures and proactive discard, which has some limitations. It fares better in the current aggressive meta because Young Pyro as a proactive play lets them survive Hollow Ones and then turn around. Its also the reason I wanted to fit more Young Pyros in; Young Pyro is bad in a meta full of instant speed removal, but people mostly want to do their own thing at the moment. Now, faithless into souls means they only have 2 spells at best in their GY, looting itself + the other card, assuming they threw down a spell. Any bolts, pushes and terminates they throw in are gone for good. They can't snap those back if they need them later. Their strategy is to just trade and press "1-for-1/value with souls" their way through brutally, and pull ahead with Reveler when out of gas.
Grixis is more measured and values choice over quantity - Opt, Serum Visions and Kommand all give us control over our card quality. We also interact on the stack, meaning we don't have as hard a time with TKS, smasher, reshaper, collected company, planeswalkers, because we get to kill these value plays while they're on the stack - the only time they can be interacted with profitably.
RE: Evacuation
I presume this is for the sideboard. I'm not sure this will ever be better than Damnation, because if you're really wanting to clear the board, why not pay 1 mana less for a more permanent solution? Getting a snap back doesn't really convince me enough. Cryptic Command does a close enough approximation of this (tap opposition and bounce snap) while also being able to do other stuff.
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If you're comparing Tasigur to Bone Dragon, I'm afraid to say Tasigur is way way way better. Looking that activation cost, you're "delving" 7 and paying 5, as though the cost were 10BB. That's quite the amount of resources. I'm sure this was meant to be a recurring threat in standard, but this 5/4 flier for 5 that can recur for 5 plus delve 5 is not modern playable. Tasigur can come down early and block, can come down for 1 and leave up interaction, can generate card advantage. There is no comparison.
If I had an excess of 7 cards in the GY? I'd try to end the game on the opponent's end step with Empty the pits. If you have 7 cards and 5 mana that's 4 2/2 tokens, which is a superior threat to the opponent than a single target. It would not be uncommon to simply win the game
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Heh, I just mentioned an instant speed wincon (like secure) in my initial reply yea? Just note that its heavy on Black. Empty the Pits
If you're having difficulty in the control MU, Vendilion cliques are pretty prime in that. Info, "discard" and clock in one package, and all on their end step.
Tasigur doesn't have instant speed but he only costs B. So....... the speed is kinda irrelevant there. Comes down early enough to be relevant against Hollow One, Swiftspears, and Tron.
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Well your learning curve after each tweak forms a part of that 100 games, so I would actually assume that the next 100 games afterward your number should improve. a 56% with a control deck is perfectly fine in a blind meta. 64% actually means the current style of control is favored.
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In other news, Grixis Control deck in this weekends Modern Challenge ran Nicol Bolas in a standard Grixis Control Tasigur Build (Nicol Bolas took the Vendi Clique/Pyro flex slot). https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-challenge-2018-07-15
* Grixis Control A!
* Grixis Control B!
that bolas build is very interesting... but intuitively, it looks a little too fragile for a curve topper....
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
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UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
I don't understand why people keep saying this? Its a 4 cmc 4/4 flier that strips a card, not unlike Thought Knot seer, except in exchange for not being able to be cheated out with Temples or targeted discard, Bolas does not return a card when killed, he flies, and he can upgrade. If allowed to resolve and then removed, he is a 2-for-1. If allowed to continue, he can deal lethal as a dragon or just become a PW and win. Perhaps the worst scenario for him is being countered.
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Different views on the new Bolas are due to different expectations I believe. If he's played like a value creature then sure, he's a 2 for 1 when resolved, he's certainly valuable in that regard. But for 4 mana, we can resolve a JTMS that is also a sure 2 for 1, does different things, and can be lethal if allowed to continue. There must be a reason why he's played and the deck has proven to some level of success though, just hope that it truly helps the Grixis shell. Certainly something worth testing though.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
64% is a very good win rate IMHO, could you please also share with us how you use JTMS v.s. Pyromancer, i.e. do you play on curve, how often you side them out etc. As we can observe, the Grixis lists out there that are yielding results recently don't playing JTMS, some are using AV as a draw engine, some are playing azcanta only.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
BBBB is a long shot yes, but its a very late game card, as late as Bone Dragon which was the comparison. Except, Empty produces multiple threats which can't be dealt with using spot removal, and it scales with the GY. Getting to BBBB shouldn't be a priority for a grixis control deck running empty, because you'll eventually start fetching the second watery, the bloodcrypt and swamp.
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When TKS dies he lets the opponent draw, lets not conveniently skip over that downside shall we? You could argue that TKS targets quality while Bolas hit quantity.
If you cast Bolas and the oppo's hand is already empty, I'm not sure that's something to complain about. you're probably going to win.
Bolas' discard actually helping the opponent is something to think about. But we're not ramping him out, so he won't see action until turn 4. So its not like you're helping them dump bloodghasts in that point of time. Helping them dump souls at that point in time is not helping them either, its reducing the number of spirit tokens you will have to deal with - 2 instead of 4. Looting, likewise you've taken away 1 cast trigger and 1 looting. Just because looting is a secondary choice for voluntary discard doesn't mean it's "better" in the graveyard. Its just that if there are no bloodghasts or prized amalgams in hand (I play BR Hollow one so I'm drawing reference from there), then at least looting can still be recast from the GY, as opposed to dropping your Anglers or bolts which will just be dead.
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* Grixis Control A!
* Grixis Control B!
congrats to whoever this is
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Question for both of you:
1.are you running 25 lands? does the land count really make sense to you?
2.do you feel 4x field of ruin is a bit too much?
3.is thought scour really a necessity to play with tasigur?
I personally prefer this list btw: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1177779#online
jace over vendilion, and 2x tarpit instead of only a singleton. but they both ran 25 lands and full set thought scour on top of full set field of ruin, that really makes me wonder....
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
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Gifts Ungiven targets.
Just because I'm a spice addict, I decided my 4 pyromancer, 2 claim/fame, 1 JVP list wasn't hot enough. I now want to add 1x Gifts Ungiven as my top end or possibly midrange play, and do naughty things like Snapcaster/Claim/Kommand/Pyro, or Snapcaster/claim/Kommand/thing-I-really-want, or just Snap/Claim/JVP/Kommand for max grind.
I wanna know what gifts packages you might have assembled in the past that worked for you.
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You're right, Gearhulking a gifts sounds beautiful. My only issue with that is my curve, my top end apart from gifts is 2 Cryptics. I shaved 2 Kommands for Claims instead. Overall, my curve is a lot lower and its supported by 21 lands. Hitting 6 will happen statistically later for me than the typical 23, and definitely later than 25 land lists.
If I end up raising my curve or landcount later, gearhulk is definitely an option I will consider. Thanks!
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I said because of corey's list and didn't really brought something new and I think both list you shared are essential the same, the changes are according to play style, metagame, etc. you still have the same number of lands, spell and threats, they are just tweaked differently.
thought isn't just for tasigur is more a question of speed, it accelerates azcanta and makes a earlier snapcaster better. but if you prefer serum or removal in is place it's still valid.
about the field of ruins, when corey run 4 he said it was in place of serum vision, I think it was at the pro tour. In the same pro tour, andrew cuneo who play test with corey played this list (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/923116#paper), he run 2 serum visions instead of the 4th azcanta.
I also like jace in the main deck, just fact I can tut for it as finisher with azcanta makes me want to play it. I also like having explosives main, can tut for it and is a versatile answer