What are people's thoughts on Scarab Feast? I have an idea that that Grixis control could potentially main-deck this card as a 2 or 3 of since the cycling cost is so cheap. It would never truly be dead, since it cycles at instant speed for B and can later be delved away, but it also frees up sideboard slots, letting you run more targeted hate to sure up some matchups.
It is a narrower card than its nearest alternative Surgical Extraction in that there are a few matchups where you want Surgical but not Feast (Tron comes to mind if you are running any kind of discard or Fumigator Mage package), but against a lot of decks it does a reasonable job (slowing down dredge, 'countering' a Snapcaster Mage, answering reanimation).
What are people's thoughts on Scarab Feast? I have an idea that that Grixis control could potentially main-deck this card as a 2 or 3 of since the cycling cost is so cheap. It would never truly be dead, since it cycles at instant speed for B and can later be delved away, but it also frees up sideboard slots, letting you run more targeted hate to sure up some matchups.
It is a narrower card than its nearest alternative Surgical Extraction in that there are a few matchups where you want Surgical but not Feast (Tron comes to mind if you are running any kind of discard or Fumigator Mage package), but against a lot of decks it does a reasonable job (slowing down dredge, 'countering' a Snapcaster Mage, answering reanimation).
If I am cantripping, I want to actually cantrip and get something of minor value.
This only cantrips or does something of minor impact. You never get both.
Hi everyone, just wanted to share an article on control decks in Modern. I included Grixis, because I feel its metagame positioning is solid right now. Check it out here, and let me know what you think!
Hey guys, so I have Corey Burkhart's stalk grixis control in paper and on mtgo. I was wandering if playing matches for free on mtgo is good practice for decision making because I do see a lot of decks that I wouldn't see in a tournament setting. Also I did try a few modern fun leagues and am having a hard time consistently getting wins which is due to my lack of experience. What do you guys recommend I do to see improvement?
BladeMasta, I'd watch some of Corey Burkhart's streams on his youtube channel. One of the most important thing with this deck is to make sure you know how to use Cryptic Command/Snapcaster Mage/Kolaghan's Command together, and he's a master at playing those cards. I almost never used the discard mode in K-Command before I watched some of his games. Turns out it's the second best mode in the meta right now.
Also, what sort of decks are you seeing? Control decks have to be tuned very tightly to do well. It's certainly useful to know how to play a list that is turned towards the tournament meta against jank, since that's a scenario you're likely to face in rounds 1/2 of a large tournament. But that won't be the list that will perform best in that meta. If your meta is full of U-Tron, 8-Rack, and Dredgevine for some reason I wouldn't expect the Burkhart list to do well.
I think some of us have switched over to Grixis Shadow because the proactive game plan with huge creatures is working better. If I were to switch back to Control I would try to run mana leak in place of squall for sure. Having played Control I just did not like how squall sat in my hand as I watched threats resolve and start to kill me.
This deck is still fine to run but I think a different configuration would be better. Too often I was fighting an uphill battle and my threats were taken out too easily (Path on Tasigur). I would try to squeeze in more threats mainboard. Cards I would consider: Gifted Aetherborn, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Grave Titan, Torrential Gearhulk, or heck even Death's Shadow. Just jam some Shadow's and ignore their creatures while you Cryptic Command tap their defense down and swing in to win.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Has anyone considered speeding up the deck and droping Ancestral Vision and running maybe more threats like Young Pyromancer and / or more proactive spells? Even if drawing cards is a matter, Think Twice is pure value.
So make it Delver, swapping the Delvers for Cryptics? I don't think that would be particularly great, to be honest. All the Delver players are jumping ship to Shadow these days.
Game 1: I start with a turn 1 Ancestral on the play, and I am met with a ton of discard. I'm able to stabilize at 3 life and win with Tar Pit beats.
Board-
-2 Fatal Push
-3 Terminate
-1 Thought Scour
+2 Anger of the Gods
+1 EE
+1 Staticaster
+2 Negate
Game 2: He opens with inquisition taking my Ancestral, followed by Raise the Alarm which I'm able to Spell Snare. He chokes on 2 lands for a couple turns, which gives me enough time to land a Tasigur with plenty of counter back up.
R2 vs Bant Eldrazi, 0-2:
Game 1: He basically has the nuts. Turn 1 Noble, which I don't have a removal spell for, into turn 2 Thought-Knot into Turn 3 Smasher. I do my best to stabilize but it's not enough.
Game 2: My opening 7 is a bit slow, but had Damnation and Ancestral and so I kept it. This game is much closer with us going back and forth. Eventually he's able to resolve a Reality Smasher via Cavern of Souls which ends the game.
R3 vs Ad Nauseum, 2-1:
Game 1: I kept a hand with a lot of removal, a couple lands, and a Cryptic. I apply as much pressure as possible throughout the game, however he's able to Ad Nauseum with Pact to counter my Cryptic.
Game 2: After boarding this matchup gets a lot easier. I drew multiple Fulminators and was able to restrict his mana, and Snapcasters got in for the victory.
Game 3: Once again i focused on restricting his mana. I also drew a ton of counterspells this game, resulting in a rather easy win.
2-1 overall and I'm happy with my current list. One thing I am considering is dropping an Island for another fetch for Fatal Push. Losing to Bant Eldrazi is not a huge surprise, the matchup is tough for us.
I might be taking my list to a GPT Vegas this Sunday. I'll post results if I end up going.
Spreading Seas is all the rage over at UW control at the moment. Should the card be considered for Grixis as well?
I suppose we are struggling with many of the same issues (i.e. tron), and Grixis seems better suited to profit from the tempo loss SS could cause for the opponent.
Is the fact that it is sorcery speed enough to make it unplayable in Grixis? It is only two mana.
Does it need to be paired with Ghost Quarter (which UW runs) to be effective?
Thoughts?
It's kinda slow and mana denial is a big part of why it's good (see: GQ). We can't really afford GQ without increasing land count.
It has certainly been an option but I've found our tempo to be sufficient against Tron.
wow, this page of the thread shows a TON of people who have absolutely no clue how to play this deck. Some of these suggestions literally made me cringe. Things like young pyro, spreading seas, goblin dark dwellers (omg puke), gifted aetherborn (what are we midrange?), etc. fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of this version of grixis and would require a complete (and most likely terrible) reworking. If you're tasigur is dying to path, you are doing it wrong unless you were totally cool with it dying to path.
It hasn't been said in a while, so I'm gonna go ahead and make a PSA:
This is not a midrange deck (which is why you only have 3 wincons)
This is not a 1 for 1 attrition deck (which is why discard is actively terrible)
This is a deck that only works if you are trading up on mana with just about everything you do (which is why you need to play at instant speed).
I highly encourage anyone that is trying this deck to do some heavy research into Corey's videos. He is very thorough and explains every decision in a very detailed manner.
I knew somebody would respond like that, but you are not looking to trade resources 1 for 1 or else you would want like 6-8 discard spells like jund. This is a reactive control deck that is looking to trade on mana, not resources, and when you think of it like that, instead of like jund, then you end up a lot more successful.
It's precisely why something like elspeth, sun's champion is a beating against jund as a topdeck, and a liability against us. Jund trades 1 for 1 hoping to end up a beater on board and close the game quick so topdecks don't affect the game. In this deck, trying to resolve a topdeck elspeth most likely ends up as a wasted turn if we counter it. Also why dispel is such a beating against us. Think about it, which would you rather have against each matchup?
We are only as good as the amount of mana we can trade, Jund is only as good as the amount of resources it can trade.
I knew somebody would respond like that, but you are not looking to trade resources 1 for 1 or else you would want like 6-8 discard spells like jund. This is a reactive control deck that is looking to trade on mana, not resources, and when you think of it like that, instead of like jund, then you end up a lot more successful.
Are you running a stock list to great success? I've had nothing but bad luck with it for a while. Sometimes you don't have protection for Tasigur when he comes down. You cannot rely on the 1 of's in the sideboard to help for game 2 either. I've watched a few people just barely win while at 1 life. And that is when this deck finally stabilizes it seems. Good players know how to not walk into a Cryptic Command too. Such as they go for attacks first causing you to CC tap their team down so you don't die and later they can resolve whatever they want.
And you're right, I need to watch it a lot more so I know the lines of play better. For now I'm on Grixis Shadow wagon and been doing ok until people know how to play against it better.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
So I don't think we are positioned very well right now. If we look at the Shadow matchups through the lens of mana efficiency, they are killing us because they are so efficient that we can't really trade up on mana. It may seem like a control deck with a bunch of answers, etc. would be good against a creature deck like that, but the fact of the matter is that, unless you are playing a set of fatal push (which I have not seen in most stock lists) you are bound to be trading down on mana against them, and that does not bode well.
For example, someone mentioned running some mana leaks over countersqualls because they were getting beat down. While that may be an upgrade, it's ultimately not going to go well for you unless you are countering creatures with cmc 2 or higher. mana leak on a death's shadow only to be followed up by another death's shadow that you then have to terminate is feelsterrribleman. they just traded 2 mana for your 4. You are bound to lose that game. If we were simply a 1 for 1 attrition deck, then that wouldn't be too bad, but we aren't, so it's like literally the worst thing for us.
Ok, ok, let me be a little clearer because I don't want to deny that this deck attritions well, obviously it does. I am just trying to point out that if you approach this deck the same way as jund, then you aren't going to be that successful. If you keep terminating 1 drops you are going to lose, whereas in jund it doesn't really matter. Simple as that. And I'm sorry, but you aren't pulling ahead if you are snap cryptic a one drop unless it's a topdeck.
As for elspeth, sure context matters and I definitely wasn't thinking about the control mirror. (Though, I definitely stand by my assertion that in a control mirror I would much rather have dispel than elspeth.) Take Bant Eldrazi, for example. If I'm playing against Jund, I'm slamming elspeth turn 6 and dispel is probably in the board. Against grixis, I'm probably not bringing in elspeth (depending on what I cut or whatever), but without a doubt bringing in dispel. Simple question, what is worse for you as a grixis player, seeing an elspeth turn 6 or a smasher with dispel backup? I think my point is pretty clear through that example.
I'm not saying you said any of these things, i'm saying people in the last page were... I'm just illustrating a point, specifically that mana efficiency matters a lot more to this deck than jund. In jund, if they play a one drop, you can terminate it turn 2 without feeling too bad because you are enacting your game plan: 1 for 1 so I can eventually get a goyf on the board and win. In grixis, it is almost certainly correct to ignore the 1 drop until you draw a 1 drop removal or whatever because wasting 2 mana on a one drop is very, very bad in this deck.
As for elspeth, it was simply a recognizable large drop, and again, you haven't really answered, but dispel is better against us than elspeth, and the reason is mana. Which is also why negate is meh, and dispel is absurd...
The last point absolutely has to do with our talking, since a 1 mana answer to our counterspell or removal is brutal, while a 6 mana planeswalker is a bit of a joke unless we don't have a counter, but we're boned anyway there, so it's not even worth talking about. Generally speaking, I would much rather see an elspeth turn 6 out of bant, than a smasher with a blue mana up. 9/10 out of ten, we are countering elspeth and loving it as they wasted a turn, but getting housed by the smasher if they have a dispel on our cryptic, even if we have the removal for it.
If i'm a bant player and I am in turn 6 with the decision to elspeth or reality with dispel up, I'm dropping elspeth every time against jund, and reality with dispel every time against grixis. And if I dispel a cryptic it's game, whereas if I dispel a mana leak, they can still terminate and end up on mana.
I just want to be clear that I'm not really disagreeing with you as much as trying to clarify what I mean because a lot of people don't understand why this deck doesn't play discard and why it's not really good in our main gameplan. Sure, some metagames might make 2 thoughtseizes in the board acceptable, but generally speaking, discard is not good in this deck and it's because this deck's main game plan is to trade up on mana, not trade resources 1 for 1 (even if it ends up doing that in practice a lot). It's a subtle difference, but an important one.
It is a narrower card than its nearest alternative Surgical Extraction in that there are a few matchups where you want Surgical but not Feast (Tron comes to mind if you are running any kind of discard or Fumigator Mage package), but against a lot of decks it does a reasonable job (slowing down dredge, 'countering' a Snapcaster Mage, answering reanimation).
If I am cantripping, I want to actually cantrip and get something of minor value.
This only cantrips or does something of minor impact. You never get both.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Also, what sort of decks are you seeing? Control decks have to be tuned very tightly to do well. It's certainly useful to know how to play a list that is turned towards the tournament meta against jank, since that's a scenario you're likely to face in rounds 1/2 of a large tournament. But that won't be the list that will perform best in that meta. If your meta is full of U-Tron, 8-Rack, and Dredgevine for some reason I wouldn't expect the Burkhart list to do well.
Who is playing mana leak over the countersquall mb?
This deck is still fine to run but I think a different configuration would be better. Too often I was fighting an uphill battle and my threats were taken out too easily (Path on Tasigur). I would try to squeeze in more threats mainboard. Cards I would consider: Gifted Aetherborn, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Grave Titan, Torrential Gearhulk, or heck even Death's Shadow. Just jam some Shadow's and ignore their creatures while you Cryptic Command tap their defense down and swing in to win.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
More something like :
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Batterskull
Spells (31)
4 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
3 Mana Leak
3 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Remand
2 Terminate
1 Dreadbore
1 Electrolyze
1 Collective Brutality
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
My list:
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Cryptic Command
3 Terminate
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Fatal Push
2 Countersquall
1 Spell Snare
Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Izzet Staticaster
R1 vs B/W Tokens, 2-0:
Game 1: I start with a turn 1 Ancestral on the play, and I am met with a ton of discard. I'm able to stabilize at 3 life and win with Tar Pit beats.
Board-
-2 Fatal Push
-3 Terminate
-1 Thought Scour
+2 Anger of the Gods
+1 EE
+1 Staticaster
+2 Negate
Game 2: He opens with inquisition taking my Ancestral, followed by Raise the Alarm which I'm able to Spell Snare. He chokes on 2 lands for a couple turns, which gives me enough time to land a Tasigur with plenty of counter back up.
R2 vs Bant Eldrazi, 0-2:
Game 1: He basically has the nuts. Turn 1 Noble, which I don't have a removal spell for, into turn 2 Thought-Knot into Turn 3 Smasher. I do my best to stabilize but it's not enough.
Board-
-2 Countersquall
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Thought Scour
+3 Fulminator Mage
+1 Damnation
Game 2: My opening 7 is a bit slow, but had Damnation and Ancestral and so I kept it. This game is much closer with us going back and forth. Eventually he's able to resolve a Reality Smasher via Cavern of Souls which ends the game.
R3 vs Ad Nauseum, 2-1:
Game 1: I kept a hand with a lot of removal, a couple lands, and a Cryptic. I apply as much pressure as possible throughout the game, however he's able to Ad Nauseum with Pact to counter my Cryptic.
Board-
-4 Lightning Bolt
-3 Terminate
-2 Fatal Push
-2 Ancestral Vision
+1 EE
+1 Collective Brutality
+2 Dispel
+2 Negate
+2 Surgical Extraction
+3 Fulminator Mage
Game 2: After boarding this matchup gets a lot easier. I drew multiple Fulminators and was able to restrict his mana, and Snapcasters got in for the victory.
Game 3: Once again i focused on restricting his mana. I also drew a ton of counterspells this game, resulting in a rather easy win.
2-1 overall and I'm happy with my current list. One thing I am considering is dropping an Island for another fetch for Fatal Push. Losing to Bant Eldrazi is not a huge surprise, the matchup is tough for us.
I might be taking my list to a GPT Vegas this Sunday. I'll post results if I end up going.
BGX Midrange
URX Control
BGX Midrange
URX Control
It's kinda slow and mana denial is a big part of why it's good (see: GQ). We can't really afford GQ without increasing land count.
It has certainly been an option but I've found our tempo to be sufficient against Tron.
It hasn't been said in a while, so I'm gonna go ahead and make a PSA:
This is not a midrange deck (which is why you only have 3 wincons)
This is not a 1 for 1 attrition deck (which is why discard is actively terrible)
This is a deck that only works if you are trading up on mana with just about everything you do (which is why you need to play at instant speed).
I highly encourage anyone that is trying this deck to do some heavy research into Corey's videos. He is very thorough and explains every decision in a very detailed manner.
It's precisely why something like elspeth, sun's champion is a beating against jund as a topdeck, and a liability against us. Jund trades 1 for 1 hoping to end up a beater on board and close the game quick so topdecks don't affect the game. In this deck, trying to resolve a topdeck elspeth most likely ends up as a wasted turn if we counter it. Also why dispel is such a beating against us. Think about it, which would you rather have against each matchup?
We are only as good as the amount of mana we can trade, Jund is only as good as the amount of resources it can trade.
Are you running a stock list to great success? I've had nothing but bad luck with it for a while. Sometimes you don't have protection for Tasigur when he comes down. You cannot rely on the 1 of's in the sideboard to help for game 2 either. I've watched a few people just barely win while at 1 life. And that is when this deck finally stabilizes it seems. Good players know how to not walk into a Cryptic Command too. Such as they go for attacks first causing you to CC tap their team down so you don't die and later they can resolve whatever they want.
And you're right, I need to watch it a lot more so I know the lines of play better. For now I'm on Grixis Shadow wagon and been doing ok until people know how to play against it better.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
For example, someone mentioned running some mana leaks over countersqualls because they were getting beat down. While that may be an upgrade, it's ultimately not going to go well for you unless you are countering creatures with cmc 2 or higher. mana leak on a death's shadow only to be followed up by another death's shadow that you then have to terminate is feelsterrribleman. they just traded 2 mana for your 4. You are bound to lose that game. If we were simply a 1 for 1 attrition deck, then that wouldn't be too bad, but we aren't, so it's like literally the worst thing for us.
As for elspeth, sure context matters and I definitely wasn't thinking about the control mirror. (Though, I definitely stand by my assertion that in a control mirror I would much rather have dispel than elspeth.) Take Bant Eldrazi, for example. If I'm playing against Jund, I'm slamming elspeth turn 6 and dispel is probably in the board. Against grixis, I'm probably not bringing in elspeth (depending on what I cut or whatever), but without a doubt bringing in dispel. Simple question, what is worse for you as a grixis player, seeing an elspeth turn 6 or a smasher with dispel backup? I think my point is pretty clear through that example.
As for elspeth, it was simply a recognizable large drop, and again, you haven't really answered, but dispel is better against us than elspeth, and the reason is mana. Which is also why negate is meh, and dispel is absurd...
The last point absolutely has to do with our talking, since a 1 mana answer to our counterspell or removal is brutal, while a 6 mana planeswalker is a bit of a joke unless we don't have a counter, but we're boned anyway there, so it's not even worth talking about. Generally speaking, I would much rather see an elspeth turn 6 out of bant, than a smasher with a blue mana up. 9/10 out of ten, we are countering elspeth and loving it as they wasted a turn, but getting housed by the smasher if they have a dispel on our cryptic, even if we have the removal for it.
If i'm a bant player and I am in turn 6 with the decision to elspeth or reality with dispel up, I'm dropping elspeth every time against jund, and reality with dispel every time against grixis. And if I dispel a cryptic it's game, whereas if I dispel a mana leak, they can still terminate and end up on mana.
I just want to be clear that I'm not really disagreeing with you as much as trying to clarify what I mean because a lot of people don't understand why this deck doesn't play discard and why it's not really good in our main gameplan. Sure, some metagames might make 2 thoughtseizes in the board acceptable, but generally speaking, discard is not good in this deck and it's because this deck's main game plan is to trade up on mana, not trade resources 1 for 1 (even if it ends up doing that in practice a lot). It's a subtle difference, but an important one.