I frankly don't understand why you post in this forum
In case you didn't notice, I wrote this primer. I post in here because I love the deck and want it to thrive again, but I disagree in the way that other people are taking it.
when you are the guy who spams "everyone should play delver" over and over in here.
And this is why I'm so exasperated with your posts. It's like you don't even know how to read. Here, in the Modern banlist thread, everywhere I have to reiterate my points multiple times because you seem to ignore them completely. So, once again I'll repost myself in hopes that you'll actually read it:
You're missing the entire point. I'm not in here to convince you all to play Delver. I only responded to the one person because they specifically asked which deck we thought was better and I responded honestly.
I am discussing how to make Grixis Control better without switching to a Delver shell. I'm making all these Delver comparisons to reinforce the idea that you have to be proactive in Modern. I've stated this many times over the past few days and I feel like I'm banging my head into a wall whenever I do. You simply cannot durdle in Modern and hope to do well. You must be able to do something proactive and powerful to win the game. Notice how Jeskai was barely tier 3 and suddenly because tier 1 with Nahiri? That's because they got a quick, proactive thing to actually end the game with, which most Grixis lists currently lack.
We can quibble over what that proactive method actually is, but I think we need to face the facts that you need one. If I were to speak honestly I would indeed say that Delver of Secrets is the card. If you don't want to play Delver, then I would also say that Delve creatures are also great in that slot (despite the silly "dies to removal" argument).
*****
There ARE of decks that have won or placed top 16 at GPs this year that Grind out turn 20 plus victories such as: Mardu Control, Jeskai control with/without Nahiri and UW control.
Except Mardu and Jeskai play Nahiri so they don't have to go to turn 20. Sorry. Jeskai without Nahiri barely places anymore and is a tiny blip in the meta.
So your point is actually wrong and you can grind out wins, it's just harder to do.
If you think my point is that you can never grind out wins then you're illiterate. My point is that relying on grinding out wins all the time is a terrible way to do well in Modern. It may work sometimes, but not nearly as well as those decks that have a plan to kill you and can execute that plan quickly and efficiently.
I'm willing to grind out those victories and have a deck that's consistent rather than play a 1/1 and hope to flip it without being able to play reliable cards to flip it like ponder or preordain.
This alone tells me that you have no idea how the Delver decks work these days, but whatever. It doesn't really matter.
Clearly you can't post without personal attacks since you have no weight in your arguments so I'm ending this here.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Enough of the attacks on users. Keep the topic on cards. Everyone allowed to have an opinion, and everyone is allowed to express whether they think its a good idea or not, civilly.
What shell with what artifacts that would make this relevant? I have yet to see any grixis running any artifacts main, except the occasional batterskull, and then engineered or spellskite side. I can see how this might be relevant in thopter foundry/sword of the meek combo, but even then, is his scry ability even relevant when we already are exposed so so much straight up card draw and other deck/ graveyard manipulation?
Okay I think this might have got out of hand. I think both MrM0nd4y and Equinox have valid points. Delve creatures and delver are by far more efficient then reveler or Thing in the ice. They are more efficient clocks as well. Revler and thing both require time to set up and need specific thing to make them work in decks well. Cards liek delver also need specific deck styles but they are easy to accommodate in control shells. And delve creatures with the number of fetch lands in modern can slot in a lot of decks with little draw back. If you want to play creatures like reveler and thing you will have to sacrifice some %in matches due to deck building accommodations if you want to flip and cast them in a reasonable time. Other wise both thing and reveler flip and hit the field to slow and the edge goes hands down to delve creatures and delver. The question I am trying to figure out is the deck building obstacles for thing and revler worth it?
Okay I think this might have got out of hand. I think both MrM0nd4y and Equinox have valid points. Delve creatures and delver are by far more efficient then reveler or Thing in the ice. They are more efficient clocks as well. Revler and thing both require time to set up and need specific thing to make them work in decks well. Cards liek delver also need specific deck styles but they are easy to accommodate in control shells. And delve creatures with the number of fetch lands in modern can slot in a lot of decks with little draw back. If you want to play creatures like reveler and thing you will have to sacrifice some %in matches due to deck building accommodations if you want to flip and cast them in a reasonable time. Other wise both thing and reveler flip and hit the field to slow and the edge goes hands down to delve creatures and delver. The question I am trying to figure out is the deck building obstacles for thing and revler worth it?
I don't think it is, the loss of win % against a wide breadth of decks in the format without being able to consistently start a clock by turn 3 is quite significant. With the nahiri argument, there really isn't anything that has been presented in grix that can end the game quickly for us late game while still enabling control. a GDD is a 4/4 menace that costs 5 still needs the RIGHT target, reveler has many more drawbacks than the delve creatures and it shouldnt be run in conjunction with it, thing can be removed easily before it does anything and it counteracts with other creatures you'd like to run.
I've tried a lot of grindier lists with a bunch of iterations, with all the grindier options in different levels, reveler, thing in the ice, GDD, kalitas and 1-2 delve creatues, all the cryptic commands, and even vamp hexmage with thing in the ice to speed it up. It can win against decks grix is inherently already decent against, and is especially better than other grindy decks, but it is much worse against the decks it already has a hard time against and that are very fast that can evade your control.
you can argue against that point, as equinox has tried, but I just simply don't agree that its worth it.
There needs to be something that more often than not can win the game when it hits the board. I believe that delve creatures (with delver argument aside) are the most consistent way to do this because they CAN come out early, and then you can play around your opponent to do some damage before theyre removed, then run into more threats and bolts as the game goes on to win. Also, when you do need to play a grindier match up you're already in a shell to do that.I could get into why each of those grindier options aren't as good but I think that would be beating a dead horse.
until there's another option in the grindier lists that can really end the game fast late game, like Jeskai recieving nahiri, then I dont think the grindier lists will be able to perform to the same level.
I have decided to completely cut Goblin Dark Dwellers at this point. My reasoning is that it is a tap-out style card which clashes severely with the draw-go play-style that is suggested by the rest of the cards in the deck.
I haven't tested Bedlam Reveler, but, when I think about the difficulty in casting and the awkward draws produced by including even 2 Kalitas, much less, 2 GDD, I feel like it is just too difficult an ask tempo/mana-wise in a dedicated control deck like this. Casting Tasigur for B and holding up counters for their removal is a proven way to win games.
My sideboard choices reflect my dredge/nahiri/tron-heavy meta and may not reflect yours. I like Tribute to Hunger against Celestial Colonnades, as well as Bogles. Negate is really good against all sorts of nasty things (and really easy to cast).
With regards to the newly spoiled cards, I am surprised no one has suggested the inclusion of the new Chandra in this deck- she looks practically tailor-made for our purposes! The +1 ability could be amazing in conjunction with Serum Visions. The +1 ramp could be very useful towards playing a Kalitas/Tasigur for cheap while holding up counter-mana. The ultimate almost surely wins you the game with this deck, as long as you just stall out and counter things (Cryptic Command Counter, Draw, Deal 5 dmg?- Yes, please!).
Besides that, the R, B, and U gearhulks all look awesome, although a bit too costly for us to be that interested in. The U gear hulk I could *maybe* see as 1x in the sideboard, mostly to flash in as a free Cryptic cast + win-con. It is interesting to note that such a play would cost 4UU yielding a sweet 5/6 body, whereas Snap + Cryptic is 2UUUU- food for thought!
The new U/R fast-land is probably better suited for the Delver builds imo- Darkslick would probably still be my preferred fast-land in this deck given how much I want to T1 thoughtseize/ancestral vision. That said, I will be looking to hold onto every copy I get my hands on : )
I have decided to completely cut Goblin Dark Dwellers at this point. My reasoning is that it is a tap-out style card which clashes severely with the draw-go play-style that is suggested by the rest of the cards in the deck.
I haven't tested Bedlam Reveler, but, when I think about the difficulty in casting and the awkward draws produced by including even 2 Kalitas, much less, 2 GDD, I feel like it is just too difficult an ask tempo/mana-wise in a dedicated control deck like this. Casting Tasigur for B and holding up counters for their removal is a proven way to win games.
My sideboard choices reflect my dredge/nahiri/tron-heavy meta and may not reflect yours. I like Tribute to Hunger against Celestial Colonnades, as well as Bogles. Negate is really good against all sorts of nasty things (and really easy to cast).
With regards to the newly spoiled cards, I am surprised no one has suggested the inclusion of the new Chandra in this deck- she looks practically tailor-made for our purposes! The +1 ability could be amazing in conjunction with Serum Visions. The +1 ramp could be very useful towards playing a Kalitas/Tasigur for cheap while holding up counter-mana. The ultimate almost surely wins you the game with this deck, as long as you just stall out and counter things (Cryptic Command Counter, Draw, Deal 5 dmg?- Yes, please!).
Besides that, the R, B, and U gearhulks all look awesome, although a bit too costly for us to be that interested in. The U gear hulk I could *maybe* see as 1x in the sideboard, mostly to flash in as a free Cryptic cast + win-con. It is interesting to note that such a play would cost 4UU yielding a sweet 5/6 body, whereas Snap + Cryptic is 2UUUU- food for thought!
The new U/R fast-land is probably better suited for the Delver builds imo- Darkslick would probably still be my preferred fast-land in this deck given how much I want to T1 thoughtseize/ancestral visions. That said, I will be looking to hold onto every copy I get my hands on : )
The New Chandra has been discussed slightly. we went off on an in depth discussion there for a few pages. I do think she has the possibility to add something to the deck, we shall see
I'll provide a list later, but Bedlam Reveler has been fantastic. Especially with new Liliana. More than once I have discarded a "dead" second reveler to just recur it with Lily and cast it again next turn. Such a blow out to draw 6 over two turns.
I run light on the counter spells (spell snare and mana leaks), no discard, and as many fast cantrips as possible to fuel my graveyard for Snap/Reveler/Lili.
I do NOT think reveler with Titi is great. Too much "do nothing", I want spell density, and I'm not convinced being 'horrors' is consequential.
I have basically just replaced my 3 Ancestral Visions with Reveler and it has been doing work. A recurring AV with a 3/4 prowess body? yes please. you guys are nuts
Straight up good discussion guys, even if it did get a little tense. Here's my take on Reveler:
1. Speed: Yes, he can't come down as quickly as Tasigur. But look, this is the Control, not Delver thread, essentially if you're here, you've volunteered to try and durdle and then turn the corner just like every other Control deck out there. The possibility of a turn 2 tasigur is nice, but you can't take that to discount a card (Reveler) that is doing exactly what a control deck wants to do: turn the corner. Reveler is no Sphinx's Revelation, but as an Ancestral Recall on a stick it actually comes pretty close. You empty your hand answering threats, then u refill it while putting a threat on the board. 3/4 prowess *is* a little small imho. I'm more excited looking at the Blue Gearhulk, but darn, I'd hate to draw that any time before turn 6 (just like Sphinx!).
2. Resilience: Let's please get real about "protection" for Tasigur. Yes, we sell that Chapin dream draw a lot, but how many Dispels or Turn Asides are you running in your 60? If you want to be proactive, the way to go is to outnumber the removal, not play the queen and pray your counterspells outnumber the removals. GPGZ's Champion list has shown us this. So are you planning to be proactive with your 75? Refer to #1.
3. Card Advantage: Tasigur can bring us cards, yes, but how many times have you been able to get a useful card of your opponent's choice? Tasigur is often a bad topdeck unless you're at 7 lands or more (1 to cast, 4 to activate while still holding up 2 to interact). Opponents are usually biding their time until you activate before they make their move (coco, or removal for Tas). Reveler on the other hand draws you 3 cards from the top, no strings attached. Are we really comparing "opponent's choice of 1 card" to "random 3 cards"?
4. Multiple Copies: This didn't come up so far, but its so, so important. Drawing multiple Tasigurs is a cruel joke, because outnumbering removal doesn't apply when u need to delve 4-5 cards. Activating Tasigur and milling another copy is like, the best thing ever for your opponent. Then, even if he wasn't legendary, the Delve cost makes casting multiple extremely prohibitive. You want to draw 1 tasigur, and you don't want him to die. The pay-off for Reveler, however, is the exact opposite. We're ok with Reveler dying, because we haven't invested anything other than RR to cast it. If Reveler draws us into another Reveler, well, we're probably going to win.
I like Tasigur and I like reveler. But Tasigur in a control shell is taking us as far as "Developing Competitive", so right now is hardly the time to say stuff like "Reveler needs to prove it has a spot in this deck". Its kind of like setting a high bar for a pretty lame club that none of the kids really want to join anyway.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I'm still having nightmares with Bant Eldrazi but everything else feels fine. Dredge is a good MU.
Sometimes you get paired against non-eldrazi creature decks and you just crush. Other times it's Eldrazi followed up by Boggles and nothing can save you. Such is the format.
I like the Suicide Zoo MU although they do have "those draws".
Jund and Abzan are always great MUs.
I dropped the A.Visions from the MD since they're so slow.
Straight up good discussion guys, even if it did get a little tense. Here's my take on Reveler:
1. Speed: Yes, he can't come down as quickly as Tasigur. But look, this is the Control, not Delver thread, essentially if you're here, you've volunteered to try and durdle and then turn the corner just like every other Control deck out there. The possibility of a turn 2 tasigur is nice, but you can't take that to discount a card (Reveler) that is doing exactly what a control deck wants to do: turn the corner. Reveler is no Sphinx's Revelation, but as an Ancestral Recall on a stick it actually comes pretty close. You empty your hand answering threats, then u refill it while putting a threat on the board. 3/4 prowess *is* a little small imho. I'm more excited looking at the Blue Gearhulk, but darn, I'd hate to draw that any time before turn 6 (just like Sphinx!).
2. Resilience: Let's please get real about "protection" for Tasigur. Yes, we sell that Chapin dream draw a lot, but how many Dispels or Turn Asides are you running in your 60? If you want to be proactive, the way to go is to outnumber the removal, not play the queen and pray your counterspells outnumber the removals. GPGZ's Champion list has shown us this. So are you planning to be proactive with your 75? Refer to #1.
3. Card Advantage: Tasigur can bring us cards, yes, but how many times have you been able to get a useful card of your opponent's choice? Tasigur is often a bad topdeck unless you're at 7 lands or more (1 to cast, 4 to activate while still holding up 2 to interact). Opponents are usually biding their time until you activate before they make their move (coco, or removal for Tas). Reveler on the other hand draws you 3 cards from the top, no strings attached. Are we really comparing "opponent's choice of 1 card" to "random 3 cards"?
4. Multiple Copies: This didn't come up so far, but its so, so important. Drawing multiple Tasigurs is a cruel joke, because outnumbering removal doesn't apply when u need to delve 4-5 cards. Activating Tasigur and milling another copy is like, the best thing ever for your opponent. Then, even if he wasn't legendary, the Delve cost makes casting multiple extremely prohibitive. You want to draw 1 tasigur, and you don't want him to die. The pay-off for Reveler, however, is the exact opposite. We're ok with Reveler dying, because we haven't invested anything other than RR to cast it. If Reveler draws us into another Reveler, well, we're probably going to win.
I like Tasigur and I like reveler. But Tasigur in a control shell is taking us as far as "Developing Competitive", so right now is hardly the time to say stuff like "Reveler needs to prove it has a spot in this deck". Its kind of like setting a high bar for a pretty lame club that none of the kids really want to join anyway.
thank you for a response with points that have been presented in a manner in which they can be responded to in a constructive and mature manner!
Thanks again.
first off, I am not trying to argue for delver at all. I just see it as just one answer to the problem that grix has. there may be more, but I just haven't been presented one that works as well, arguments are below.
1. I'm glad this is No.1 because its kind of my biggest point. The durdle: i like durdles. but the problem that I have run into with the durdling in the durdle club in this color combination is there hasn't been a WHAM-O drop that can be played that can really stick it to your opponent after you have set the board state in your favor. now, don't get me wrong, Grixis doesn't have that hard of a time setting the board state, they have lots of answers they can find if they don't already have them, that why this deck can be captain durdle of the durdle squad. It's just when you do get the board in control, it's not like we have our own nahiri. So without that bomb, my argument is that there needs to be a means to do damage throughout the match without needing to wait til turn 4+. Grix needs to do consecutive damage, and deal it earlier. It's a philosophy of the durdle and the (delv)hare.
2. I think that the protection tasigur has in your list should be based on when you would like to cast him, because the cards that you can use later are more powerful, because they cost more, and thats how the durdle wins the race a lot of the time. So if you don't plan on casting tasigur on turn 2-3, perhaps you don't run a full set of thought scour for ancestral visions, or want to keep your graveyard full for a multiple of reasons for example, then you just solidify your board state before casting him, and have the mana up for any protection that you have drawn off your initial hand or the 4+ cards you draw from turns of stabilizing the board. That is the point of the durdle right? so thats the regular thing to do.
but...because of the problem I mentioned in no.1 of not having a real bomb to end the game......
your opponent can just top deck, draw, search, or already have a removal spell, and even if you have a protection spell, he probably aint gonna stick for long, and maybe you'll get 1-2 swings if any in before he's gone. Now, I know what you're thinking "well how is that any different than casting him in turn 2-3?" Well, I'll tell you. if you run a deck with more protection spells that cost less, opposed to many powerful 3-4 cmc spells (I'M LOOKING AT YOU cryptic command,kolaghan's command and a bunch of other things that slow down you doing damage, but also are awesome control pieces, like discard!) then you can do that 4-8 damage 1,2, or maybe even 3 turns earlier than you would have in a 'super grindy' decklist. What that does is it allows you to do more damage in a shorter amount of time, and I think that's a necessity in many a matchup. So its not really a matter of having protection, because even the delver lists run about the same amount of functional protection that the grindy lists run, it just isn't as many super versatile spells that can cost more, slow you down by needing more mana, or in the case of discard: allow you to need to worry about what they top deck.
So I guess i'm saying, he doesn't really have any more or less protection, it's just how you choose to set your list to allow him to do damage at any point of the game opposed to HAVING to wait. I argue to build more for the faster spells, because he isn't the win-con we deserve, he's the win-con we need. (because no.1)
3. Now, this answer is primarily because of number 2, in that I have built my deck to try and cast him early. So often, when I do get to cast his ability, it is in the late game against grindy matches, where having anything you've cast previously just gives you straight up card advantage. I would argue that the more durdly you are in the durdle club that the less this is significant, because you probably run stronger card advantage altogether than this ability provides by many different means. but again, because of no.1:no bomb win con, and the needing to do damage easier earlier in a lot of match ups makes that level of durdle not so good.
4. It is true that he can be faced with the position of killing himself due to the fact that there can only be one. I personally run 2, so it doesn't happen often. Even then, I am considering upping to 3, because this very seldomly happens when you build to cast him early, you're casting more often due to cheaper spells. In durdly lists you have stronger card advantage that can make this a problem that presents itself more often, you also just have more stuff because you NEED to wait more just because the cost of your stuff in a teenage mutant ninja durdle list. because he's a gy eater, he can't be cast consecutively easily like bedlam, however, this is the same problem kalitas has without the benefit of him being able to do damage early.
so yes, there are benefits to going in on a super mega durdle zord control list. that was never my argument. my argument is that it is very hard to win in a competitive format using only durdle methods. there needs to be an end goal that can end the game faster than a post turn 4 landing, that then can only win on a ~7 turn clock(LIke kalitas/bedlam/snapcaster/tarpit). The format is just too strong with better options than us, no matter how much more durdle we add. that's why I'm arguing that more damage needs to be readily dealt earlier. Not to mention just straight up running out of time. MrMonday and I would agree that delver alongside the delve creatures in a low cmc grixis control shell is the best way to do it, but I do think there are some other options that could work.
Just for comparison of a super grindy list that performs, Nahiri gets around this because, well, nahiri. your opponent has to deal with her or get raged by emrakul. and while theyre trying to deal with her, theyre blasting you with more durdle and celestial colonnade.. and bolts. we just don't have the bomb that can making waiting that long worth it. it's like we're a snake firework, and I am the consumer, and snakes don't do it for me. To quote Joe Dirt: I want some 'whistling bungholes'
Now, chandra, torch of defiance is going to help, i'm not going to say she aint, because she's damn sure gonna.
but, she's still not the 'whistling bunghole' of a firework that nihiri is, and for that reason, I will still stick to my more proactive strategy and be only slightly less durdley for the durdle club.
Okay I think this might have got out of hand. I think both MrM0nd4y and Equinox have valid points. Delve creatures and delver are by far more efficient then reveler or Thing in the ice. They are more efficient clocks as well. Revler and thing both require time to set up and need specific thing to make them work in decks well. Cards liek delver also need specific deck styles but they are easy to accommodate in control shells. And delve creatures with the number of fetch lands in modern can slot in a lot of decks with little draw back. If you want to play creatures like reveler and thing you will have to sacrifice some %in matches due to deck building accommodations if you want to flip and cast them in a reasonable time. Other wise both thing and reveler flip and hit the field to slow and the edge goes hands down to delve creatures and delver. The question I am trying to figure out is the deck building obstacles for thing and revler worth it?
I don't think it is, the loss of win % against a wide breadth of decks in the format without being able to consistently start a clock by turn 3 is quite significant. With the nahiri argument, there really isn't anything that has been presented in grix that can end the game quickly for us late game while still enabling control. a GDD is a 4/4 menace that costs 5 still needs the RIGHT target, reveler has many more drawbacks than the delve creatures and it shouldnt be run in conjunction with it, thing can be removed easily before it does anything and it counteracts with other creatures you'd like to run.
I've tried a lot of grindier lists with a bunch of iterations, with all the grindier options in different levels, reveler, thing in the ice, GDD, kalitas and 1-2 delve creatues, all the cryptic commands, and even vamp hexmage with thing in the ice to speed it up. It can win against decks grix is inherently already decent against, and is especially better than other grindy decks, but it is much worse against the decks it already has a hard time against and that are very fast that can evade your control.
you can argue against that point, as equinox has tried, but I just simply don't agree that its worth it.
There needs to be something that more often than not can win the game when it hits the board. I believe that delve creatures (with delver argument aside) are the most consistent way to do this because they CAN come out early, and then you can play around your opponent to do some damage before theyre removed, then run into more threats and bolts as the game goes on to win. Also, when you do need to play a grindier match up you're already in a shell to do that.I could get into why each of those grindier options aren't as good but I think that would be beating a dead horse.
until there's another option in the grindier lists that can really end the game fast late game, like Jeskai recieving nahiri, then I dont think the grindier lists will be able to perform to the same level.
IF YOU DISAGREE, I AGREE TO DISAGREE.
Valid points. Although I think wizards might have given us something to end games fast.... Chandra, Torch of Defiance
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Straight up good discussion guys, even if it did get a little tense. Here's my take on Reveler:
1. Speed: Yes, he can't come down as quickly as Tasigur. But look, this is the Control, not Delver thread, essentially if you're here, you've volunteered to try and durdle and then turn the corner just like every other Control deck out there. The possibility of a turn 2 tasigur is nice, but you can't take that to discount a card (Reveler) that is doing exactly what a control deck wants to do: turn the corner. Reveler is no Sphinx's Revelation, but as an Ancestral Recall on a stick it actually comes pretty close. You empty your hand answering threats, then u refill it while putting a threat on the board. 3/4 prowess *is* a little small imho. I'm more excited looking at the Blue Gearhulk, but darn, I'd hate to draw that any time before turn 6 (just like Sphinx!).
2. Resilience: Let's please get real about "protection" for Tasigur. Yes, we sell that Chapin dream draw a lot, but how many Dispels or Turn Asides are you running in your 60? If you want to be proactive, the way to go is to outnumber the removal, not play the queen and pray your counterspells outnumber the removals. GPGZ's Champion list has shown us this. So are you planning to be proactive with your 75? Refer to #1.
3. Card Advantage: Tasigur can bring us cards, yes, but how many times have you been able to get a useful card of your opponent's choice? Tasigur is often a bad topdeck unless you're at 7 lands or more (1 to cast, 4 to activate while still holding up 2 to interact). Opponents are usually biding their time until you activate before they make their move (coco, or removal for Tas). Reveler on the other hand draws you 3 cards from the top, no strings attached. Are we really comparing "opponent's choice of 1 card" to "random 3 cards"?
4. Multiple Copies: This didn't come up so far, but its so, so important. Drawing multiple Tasigurs is a cruel joke, because outnumbering removal doesn't apply when u need to delve 4-5 cards. Activating Tasigur and milling another copy is like, the best thing ever for your opponent. Then, even if he wasn't legendary, the Delve cost makes casting multiple extremely prohibitive. You want to draw 1 tasigur, and you don't want him to die. The pay-off for Reveler, however, is the exact opposite. We're ok with Reveler dying, because we haven't invested anything other than RR to cast it. If Reveler draws us into another Reveler, well, we're probably going to win.
I like Tasigur and I like reveler. But Tasigur in a control shell is taking us as far as "Developing Competitive", so right now is hardly the time to say stuff like "Reveler needs to prove it has a spot in this deck". Its kind of like setting a high bar for a pretty lame club that none of the kids really want to join anyway.
You have summed up what I have been trying to say for two pages lol.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Valid points. Although I think wizards might have given us something to end games fast.... Chandra, Torch of Defiance
I hope it does enough to bring the deck where it needs to be. but this card is no nahiri. don't take that as though I am saying shes not great, she is. I am just saying that nahiri is a nuclear warhead and chandra is like a bunch of C4, I actually think you list with the discard and bedlams will serve it well, but its still not a nuke.
I think She'll up the win rate of the grindier lists without question. but the fact her +1's aren't +2's makes her more susceptible to damage. I also think that she'll find her place in both the faster grixis lists as well as the grindier ones. The grindier ones will try to ult her and use her shocks to put the clock on as soon as she lands, and the mana ramp to get out heavy hitters, whereas the fast ones will use her as an alternate win con using her shocks to end the game faster.
I still think that my points of needing to be able to do damage sooner still apply even with chandra in your deck, because there are straight up matches that will just + your win% if you can establish an early clock, and its not like she produces an emrakul. that's not me trying to argue against durdle, I am just stating that the ability to produce damage early may still be more beneficial across the format than an all in route to durdle with chandra. We will have to see how she performs to rebuke that.
If Nahiri was the amazing nuclear bomb she is being made out to be, you'd expect to see even 1 copy somewhere in some top 8. This isn't the case, however and bodes pretty ill for durdle decks in general. Well, WotC was pretty upfront about how they want modern to be like.
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If Nahiri was the amazing nuclear bomb she is being made out to be, you'd expect to see even 1 copy somewhere in some top 8. This isn't the case, however and bodes pretty ill for durdle decks in general. Well, WotC was pretty upfront about how they want modern to be like.
well its not like she's attached to a tactical ballistic missile. she needs to be built around and within a shell that allows for her to pop, but she most definitely is a viable win condition, otherwise she wouldn't be winning even somewhat consistently at all. However, I do think she's the best example of a late game win condition in the durdle playstyle, the other examples of pure control are flimsy at best in comparison to nahiri, everything else has some clock.
I would agree with you that it doesn't bode well for durdle in general. The whole point MrMonday has been trying to convey is that having all in on the durdle playstle doesn't bode well in the format. there are straight matchups that you just will never have all the answers for in this format unless you are able to end the game earlier than most these lists are ever able to, especially when you abandon the things can allow you to do damage early, like the delve creatures. Right now the options are thin in control and combo to be able to end the game when their win conditions need to end it, especially when comparing to the many threats and control pieces their opponents can throw at them.
In fact, a lot of win conditions in the control shell are just later game card combos, Tron, Scapeshift/breach, valukut..... I'd say nahiri can be stronger than a lot of the removal those decks will face, but even Nahiri can just be blown away by infect and burn amongst many others. I just have been using her as the best example to what needs to be added to this deck just to improve it at least to the success that nahiri has had, but I still think durdle grix lists will face those same issues that nahiri faces, even with a comparable bomb to nahiri added.
If Nahiri was the amazing nuclear bomb she is being made out to be, you'd expect to see even 1 copy somewhere in some top 8. This isn't the case, however and bodes pretty ill for durdle decks in general. Well, WotC was pretty upfront about how they want modern to be like.
Nahiri has made Top 8 in several Modern Opens, GP's I can't say for sure off top of my head.
If Nahiri was the amazing nuclear bomb she is being made out to be, you'd expect to see even 1 copy somewhere in some top 8. This isn't the case, however and bodes pretty ill for durdle decks in general. Well, WotC was pretty upfront about how they want modern to be like.
Nahiri has made Top 8 in several Modern Opens, GP's I can't say for sure off top of my head.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Clearly you can't post without personal attacks since you have no weight in your arguments so I'm ending this here.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Sounds good. This is clearly going nowhere despite my best efforts, so ending it is probably best.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
What shell with what artifacts that would make this relevant? I have yet to see any grixis running any artifacts main, except the occasional batterskull, and then engineered or spellskite side. I can see how this might be relevant in thopter foundry/sword of the meek combo, but even then, is his scry ability even relevant when we already are exposed so so much straight up card draw and other deck/ graveyard manipulation?
I don't think it is, the loss of win % against a wide breadth of decks in the format without being able to consistently start a clock by turn 3 is quite significant. With the nahiri argument, there really isn't anything that has been presented in grix that can end the game quickly for us late game while still enabling control. a GDD is a 4/4 menace that costs 5 still needs the RIGHT target, reveler has many more drawbacks than the delve creatures and it shouldnt be run in conjunction with it, thing can be removed easily before it does anything and it counteracts with other creatures you'd like to run.
I've tried a lot of grindier lists with a bunch of iterations, with all the grindier options in different levels, reveler, thing in the ice, GDD, kalitas and 1-2 delve creatues, all the cryptic commands, and even vamp hexmage with thing in the ice to speed it up. It can win against decks grix is inherently already decent against, and is especially better than other grindy decks, but it is much worse against the decks it already has a hard time against and that are very fast that can evade your control.
you can argue against that point, as equinox has tried, but I just simply don't agree that its worth it.
There needs to be something that more often than not can win the game when it hits the board. I believe that delve creatures (with delver argument aside) are the most consistent way to do this because they CAN come out early, and then you can play around your opponent to do some damage before theyre removed, then run into more threats and bolts as the game goes on to win. Also, when you do need to play a grindier match up you're already in a shell to do that.I could get into why each of those grindier options aren't as good but I think that would be beating a dead horse.
until there's another option in the grindier lists that can really end the game fast late game, like Jeskai recieving nahiri, then I dont think the grindier lists will be able to perform to the same level.
IF YOU DISAGREE, I AGREE TO DISAGREE.
Here is where I am currently at with my Grixis Control Build:
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants (18):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
3 Terminate
3 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries (13):
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Serum Visions
1 Dreadbore
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Negate
2 Tribute to Hunger
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Slaughter Games
1 Crumble to Dust
I have decided to completely cut Goblin Dark Dwellers at this point. My reasoning is that it is a tap-out style card which clashes severely with the draw-go play-style that is suggested by the rest of the cards in the deck.
I haven't tested Bedlam Reveler, but, when I think about the difficulty in casting and the awkward draws produced by including even 2 Kalitas, much less, 2 GDD, I feel like it is just too difficult an ask tempo/mana-wise in a dedicated control deck like this. Casting Tasigur for B and holding up counters for their removal is a proven way to win games.
My sideboard choices reflect my dredge/nahiri/tron-heavy meta and may not reflect yours. I like Tribute to Hunger against Celestial Colonnades, as well as Bogles. Negate is really good against all sorts of nasty things (and really easy to cast).
With regards to the newly spoiled cards, I am surprised no one has suggested the inclusion of the new Chandra in this deck- she looks practically tailor-made for our purposes! The +1 ability could be amazing in conjunction with Serum Visions. The +1 ramp could be very useful towards playing a Kalitas/Tasigur for cheap while holding up counter-mana. The ultimate almost surely wins you the game with this deck, as long as you just stall out and counter things (Cryptic Command Counter, Draw, Deal 5 dmg?- Yes, please!).
Besides that, the R, B, and U gearhulks all look awesome, although a bit too costly for us to be that interested in. The U gear hulk I could *maybe* see as 1x in the sideboard, mostly to flash in as a free Cryptic cast + win-con. It is interesting to note that such a play would cost 4UU yielding a sweet 5/6 body, whereas Snap + Cryptic is 2UUUU- food for thought!
The new U/R fast-land is probably better suited for the Delver builds imo- Darkslick would probably still be my preferred fast-land in this deck given how much I want to T1 thoughtseize/ancestral vision. That said, I will be looking to hold onto every copy I get my hands on : )
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
The New Chandra has been discussed slightly. we went off on an in depth discussion there for a few pages. I do think she has the possibility to add something to the deck, we shall see
I run light on the counter spells (spell snare and mana leaks), no discard, and as many fast cantrips as possible to fuel my graveyard for Snap/Reveler/Lili.
I do NOT think reveler with Titi is great. Too much "do nothing", I want spell density, and I'm not convinced being 'horrors' is consequential.
I have basically just replaced my 3 Ancestral Visions with Reveler and it has been doing work. A recurring AV with a 3/4 prowess body? yes please. you guys are nuts
1. Speed: Yes, he can't come down as quickly as Tasigur. But look, this is the Control, not Delver thread, essentially if you're here, you've volunteered to try and durdle and then turn the corner just like every other Control deck out there. The possibility of a turn 2 tasigur is nice, but you can't take that to discount a card (Reveler) that is doing exactly what a control deck wants to do: turn the corner. Reveler is no Sphinx's Revelation, but as an Ancestral Recall on a stick it actually comes pretty close. You empty your hand answering threats, then u refill it while putting a threat on the board. 3/4 prowess *is* a little small imho. I'm more excited looking at the Blue Gearhulk, but darn, I'd hate to draw that any time before turn 6 (just like Sphinx!).
2. Resilience: Let's please get real about "protection" for Tasigur. Yes, we sell that Chapin dream draw a lot, but how many Dispels or Turn Asides are you running in your 60? If you want to be proactive, the way to go is to outnumber the removal, not play the queen and pray your counterspells outnumber the removals. GPGZ's Champion list has shown us this. So are you planning to be proactive with your 75? Refer to #1.
3. Card Advantage: Tasigur can bring us cards, yes, but how many times have you been able to get a useful card of your opponent's choice? Tasigur is often a bad topdeck unless you're at 7 lands or more (1 to cast, 4 to activate while still holding up 2 to interact). Opponents are usually biding their time until you activate before they make their move (coco, or removal for Tas). Reveler on the other hand draws you 3 cards from the top, no strings attached. Are we really comparing "opponent's choice of 1 card" to "random 3 cards"?
4. Multiple Copies: This didn't come up so far, but its so, so important. Drawing multiple Tasigurs is a cruel joke, because outnumbering removal doesn't apply when u need to delve 4-5 cards. Activating Tasigur and milling another copy is like, the best thing ever for your opponent. Then, even if he wasn't legendary, the Delve cost makes casting multiple extremely prohibitive. You want to draw 1 tasigur, and you don't want him to die. The pay-off for Reveler, however, is the exact opposite. We're ok with Reveler dying, because we haven't invested anything other than RR to cast it. If Reveler draws us into another Reveler, well, we're probably going to win.
I like Tasigur and I like reveler. But Tasigur in a control shell is taking us as far as "Developing Competitive", so right now is hardly the time to say stuff like "Reveler needs to prove it has a spot in this deck". Its kind of like setting a high bar for a pretty lame club that none of the kids really want to join anyway.
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4x Serum Visions
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Snare
1x Dispel
3x Mana Leak
1x Remand
3x Terminate
1x Shadow of Doubt
2x Kolaghan's Command
1x Electrolyze
3x Cryptic Command
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Shriekmaw
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Sulfur Falls
1x Darkslick Shores
3x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
1x Shriekmaw
2x Fulminator Mage
2x Collective Brutality
2x Ancestral Vision
1x Magma Spray
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Thoughtseize
I'm still having nightmares with Bant Eldrazi but everything else feels fine. Dredge is a good MU.
Sometimes you get paired against non-eldrazi creature decks and you just crush. Other times it's Eldrazi followed up by Boggles and nothing can save you. Such is the format.
I like the Suicide Zoo MU although they do have "those draws".
Jund and Abzan are always great MUs.
I dropped the A.Visions from the MD since they're so slow.
thank you for a response with points that have been presented in a manner in which they can be responded to in a constructive and mature manner!
Thanks again.
first off, I am not trying to argue for delver at all. I just see it as just one answer to the problem that grix has. there may be more, but I just haven't been presented one that works as well, arguments are below.
1. I'm glad this is No.1 because its kind of my biggest point. The durdle: i like durdles. but the problem that I have run into with the durdling in the durdle club in this color combination is there hasn't been a WHAM-O drop that can be played that can really stick it to your opponent after you have set the board state in your favor. now, don't get me wrong, Grixis doesn't have that hard of a time setting the board state, they have lots of answers they can find if they don't already have them, that why this deck can be captain durdle of the durdle squad. It's just when you do get the board in control, it's not like we have our own nahiri. So without that bomb, my argument is that there needs to be a means to do damage throughout the match without needing to wait til turn 4+. Grix needs to do consecutive damage, and deal it earlier. It's a philosophy of the durdle and the (delv)hare.
2. I think that the protection tasigur has in your list should be based on when you would like to cast him, because the cards that you can use later are more powerful, because they cost more, and thats how the durdle wins the race a lot of the time. So if you don't plan on casting tasigur on turn 2-3, perhaps you don't run a full set of thought scour for ancestral visions, or want to keep your graveyard full for a multiple of reasons for example, then you just solidify your board state before casting him, and have the mana up for any protection that you have drawn off your initial hand or the 4+ cards you draw from turns of stabilizing the board. That is the point of the durdle right? so thats the regular thing to do.
but...because of the problem I mentioned in no.1 of not having a real bomb to end the game......
your opponent can just top deck, draw, search, or already have a removal spell, and even if you have a protection spell, he probably aint gonna stick for long, and maybe you'll get 1-2 swings if any in before he's gone. Now, I know what you're thinking "well how is that any different than casting him in turn 2-3?" Well, I'll tell you. if you run a deck with more protection spells that cost less, opposed to many powerful 3-4 cmc spells (I'M LOOKING AT YOU cryptic command,kolaghan's command and a bunch of other things that slow down you doing damage, but also are awesome control pieces, like discard!) then you can do that 4-8 damage 1,2, or maybe even 3 turns earlier than you would have in a 'super grindy' decklist. What that does is it allows you to do more damage in a shorter amount of time, and I think that's a necessity in many a matchup. So its not really a matter of having protection, because even the delver lists run about the same amount of functional protection that the grindy lists run, it just isn't as many super versatile spells that can cost more, slow you down by needing more mana, or in the case of discard: allow you to need to worry about what they top deck.
So I guess i'm saying, he doesn't really have any more or less protection, it's just how you choose to set your list to allow him to do damage at any point of the game opposed to HAVING to wait. I argue to build more for the faster spells, because he isn't the win-con we deserve, he's the win-con we need. (because no.1)
3. Now, this answer is primarily because of number 2, in that I have built my deck to try and cast him early. So often, when I do get to cast his ability, it is in the late game against grindy matches, where having anything you've cast previously just gives you straight up card advantage. I would argue that the more durdly you are in the durdle club that the less this is significant, because you probably run stronger card advantage altogether than this ability provides by many different means. but again, because of no.1:no bomb win con, and the needing to do damage easier earlier in a lot of match ups makes that level of durdle not so good.
4. It is true that he can be faced with the position of killing himself due to the fact that there can only be one. I personally run 2, so it doesn't happen often. Even then, I am considering upping to 3, because this very seldomly happens when you build to cast him early, you're casting more often due to cheaper spells. In durdly lists you have stronger card advantage that can make this a problem that presents itself more often, you also just have more stuff because you NEED to wait more just because the cost of your stuff in a teenage mutant ninja durdle list. because he's a gy eater, he can't be cast consecutively easily like bedlam, however, this is the same problem kalitas has without the benefit of him being able to do damage early.
so yes, there are benefits to going in on a super mega durdle zord control list. that was never my argument. my argument is that it is very hard to win in a competitive format using only durdle methods. there needs to be an end goal that can end the game faster than a post turn 4 landing, that then can only win on a ~7 turn clock(LIke kalitas/bedlam/snapcaster/tarpit). The format is just too strong with better options than us, no matter how much more durdle we add. that's why I'm arguing that more damage needs to be readily dealt earlier. Not to mention just straight up running out of time. MrMonday and I would agree that delver alongside the delve creatures in a low cmc grixis control shell is the best way to do it, but I do think there are some other options that could work.
Just for comparison of a super grindy list that performs, Nahiri gets around this because, well, nahiri. your opponent has to deal with her or get raged by emrakul. and while theyre trying to deal with her, theyre blasting you with more durdle and celestial colonnade.. and bolts. we just don't have the bomb that can making waiting that long worth it. it's like we're a snake firework, and I am the consumer, and snakes don't do it for me. To quote Joe Dirt: I want some 'whistling bungholes'
Now, chandra, torch of defiance is going to help, i'm not going to say she aint, because she's damn sure gonna.
but, she's still not the 'whistling bunghole' of a firework that nihiri is, and for that reason, I will still stick to my more proactive strategy and be only slightly less durdley for the durdle club.
Valid points. Although I think wizards might have given us something to end games fast.... Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
You have summed up what I have been trying to say for two pages lol.
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
I hope it does enough to bring the deck where it needs to be. but this card is no nahiri. don't take that as though I am saying shes not great, she is. I am just saying that nahiri is a nuclear warhead and chandra is like a bunch of C4, I actually think you list with the discard and bedlams will serve it well, but its still not a nuke.
I think She'll up the win rate of the grindier lists without question. but the fact her +1's aren't +2's makes her more susceptible to damage. I also think that she'll find her place in both the faster grixis lists as well as the grindier ones. The grindier ones will try to ult her and use her shocks to put the clock on as soon as she lands, and the mana ramp to get out heavy hitters, whereas the fast ones will use her as an alternate win con using her shocks to end the game faster.
I still think that my points of needing to be able to do damage sooner still apply even with chandra in your deck, because there are straight up matches that will just + your win% if you can establish an early clock, and its not like she produces an emrakul. that's not me trying to argue against durdle, I am just stating that the ability to produce damage early may still be more beneficial across the format than an all in route to durdle with chandra. We will have to see how she performs to rebuke that.
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well its not like she's attached to a tactical ballistic missile. she needs to be built around and within a shell that allows for her to pop, but she most definitely is a viable win condition, otherwise she wouldn't be winning even somewhat consistently at all. However, I do think she's the best example of a late game win condition in the durdle playstyle, the other examples of pure control are flimsy at best in comparison to nahiri, everything else has some clock.
I would agree with you that it doesn't bode well for durdle in general. The whole point MrMonday has been trying to convey is that having all in on the durdle playstle doesn't bode well in the format. there are straight matchups that you just will never have all the answers for in this format unless you are able to end the game earlier than most these lists are ever able to, especially when you abandon the things can allow you to do damage early, like the delve creatures. Right now the options are thin in control and combo to be able to end the game when their win conditions need to end it, especially when comparing to the many threats and control pieces their opponents can throw at them.
In fact, a lot of win conditions in the control shell are just later game card combos, Tron, Scapeshift/breach, valukut..... I'd say nahiri can be stronger than a lot of the removal those decks will face, but even Nahiri can just be blown away by infect and burn amongst many others. I just have been using her as the best example to what needs to be added to this deck just to improve it at least to the success that nahiri has had, but I still think durdle grix lists will face those same issues that nahiri faces, even with a comparable bomb to nahiri added.
Nahiri has made Top 8 in several Modern Opens, GP's I can't say for sure off top of my head.
Nahiri has not made a significant* top 8 since July and thats just how far back the page goes: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=571&meta=51&f=MO
Not that we want to go any further back, because we're playing in the meta now, not the meta before July.
*Modern Open as you claim, or GP or 3* event and above.
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