2. Azcanta over Serum Visions. It took me a while to get on board with this but I haven't looked back since. It's almost the perfect Bob replacement. We don't have the speed of red to close out games to mitigate the damage Bob gives.
I'm glad it's working out for you too. It's funny, I've had nothing but great experiences with the card, and I still second guess myself for cutting Serum Visions, especially when we see these BUG lists 5-0 and they don't have it. But, I think we need more challenging of conventional wisdom in deckbuilding, so thank you Corey Burkhart for the inspiration.
4. I don't have any filter lands, hence the 3rd Blooming Marsh. Would I be better off with a Woodland Cemetary/Drowned Catacomb?
I've been asking myself this question lately too, now that we're looking to hit our 4th land untapped for Jace, and I'm not exactly sure. I love how much the fastlands help our burn and aggro matchups, but they are definitely a dog when the game goes late. Maybe it's time to take out the fastlands this week and test it.
I am really interested in how Grim Flayer works out. While I think it is a card that Jund does not really want all that much, I feel Sultai is looking for something like this simply because you can get really deep card selection with Jace, the mind Sculptor and the card allows us to simultaneously play a more proactive game plan for Jace as well. Not to mention Snapcaster Mage value in the mid and late game.
But my optimism for Grim Flayer is not without fault. He leans us more towards graveyard interaction to really get the most out of him, which means he really gets hampered by hate cards. For this reason, 2 seems like a strange number because you want him early enough to get work in before hate cards start doing what they do, but 4 makes us more vulnerable. This has me asking if he really is something we want or if he is something we want to avoid. I suspect it really will be one or the other with no middle ground, in the end.
As for Search for Azcanta vs Serum Visions, I am not sure I can get behind that at all. While Search does some work, Visions attends to a spot on the curve that is kind of necessary in this format. I think the only way I could really get behind this is if some form of decent redraw can find its way into the list outside of just Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Unfortunately Sultai is cornered into trades that are really just too fair to get away with for the long haul and Visions lets you sidestep some of that burden by cycling while filtering. Search is also subject to the evermore prevalent Abrupt Decay, and I just don't see the payoff being there.
Anyways, here is the current list I have been working with
So just a few things to note about Sultai and the general card selection (as this list is pretty generic).
Sultai, no matter what the list looks like, excels in playing an attrition game. While it is efficient in this regard, is really is not the greatest at recouping from a flat hand or an empty hand. When you are out of gas - you are out of gas. At least in the vast majority of situations. The upside here is that the deck plays straight gas early and mid game and it can round it off extremely well, just don't fall too far behind. Discard spells into beefy threats allow Jace to get on board and bottleneck your opponent into dealing with him, or dealing with your creatures. Cards like Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique are solid proactive disruption to help you along the way. For this reason, Spreading Seas can also get some decent mileage, especially where it can often matter most, such as the Jund match or the Tron match. In games where the land typing is not really all that relevant, it at least cantrips and can be boarded out with ease. Disruption has proven to be the best way to proactively play into your own JTMS.
Cards I am not entirely certain of, are Liliana of the Veil and Tarmogoyf. Liliana really helps you tear apart their hand, but without having a way to really redraw from a match where both players have 0 cards in hand, I find her to be fairly lackluster. She is far from the worst card in the deck, but I do believe she is a bit at odds with standard iterations of Sultai. I think shells that really support her better, are probably lists leaning more towards draw/go... which is not really where Jace is at his best. I suspect a different creature base could really just make this point moot, because something like Grim Flayer gives you some additional value from her and can filter your top decks which is better than just blindly drawing for better top decks. As for Tarmogoyf, I often find myself drawing and playing him when the board is more at parity and he is less exciting than Jund where I know my cards are more aggressive and can give him extra mileage on offense. Sure, there are enough times where he is beating down and is the way I will win the match... but it is slow. Compare him to something like Grim Flayer who is not hated out, and Flayer is often better because you can filter draws with him when a top deck can otherwise blow him out.
I guess the long story short here, is that the deck is not really the best at closing games. It can maintain parity well until something comes along to break that parity in your opponents favor and you slip back farther than the deck can often times catch up.
My win rate is pretty decent with the deck, so I do not mean to sound like I am dogging on the deck. I think it is pretty damn good all things considered. But my feedback is mainly there to contribute to the discussion of how the deck can be structured to have top decks where you can landslide your opponent at least.
Grim Flayer + Courser of Kruphix seems pretty appealing in a Sultai shell but I guess the ultimate question will be how we want to deal with GY hate in a more creature based shell. Perhaps just running them alongside Thoughtseize + Inquisition of Kozilek + Abrupt Decay is enough. I feel like a Flayer centric shell is likely to be more aggressive than the list I have above.
This is probably what I would shift to after reflecting on my thoughts more. You don't get a whole lot of crazy with cards that have double typing for Grim Flayer, like Courser of Kruphix or anything. But I think that is fine. After jamming a quick few games Flayer can still get to 4/4 with relative ease using his ability. I got some pretty strong digging power with him.
Hello everyone!
This thread caught my eye when Jace was announced and I've been lurking ever since. Thought I'd share my list with everyone and some of the experience I've had with it at my LGS.
// Deck: sultai delirium (60)
// Lands
1 Breeding Pool
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
The sideboard is kinda geared towards my local meta. I've taken some advice from your posts. Really like the JVP in the list. Probably taking out tireless trackers for something else. Went 2-2-1 in a 5 round tournament lastnight, not great.
Round 1. Coco Blood Artist (0-2)
Round 2. Scapeshift (2-0)
Round 3. Blue Moon (1-1-1)
Round 4. Pyromancer burn (2-1)
Round 5. Scapeshift (0-2)
Take-aways, Gifted Aetherborn was really helpful against burn. Tirless tracker wasn't great with my land base. Search for azcanta, grim flayer and jvp was great for turning on delirium and pumping goyf and giving me more options but might be too much and if I had to cut one I think it would be Search. Liliana, the Last Hope was great with jvp, they work well together. Thought scour can be great against JTMS.
Changes for me will most likely be
-1 Search for Azcanta
-2 Tireless Tracker
+2 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Vendilion Clique
Clique seems great and fills multiple rolls. Scooze for MD grave hate and some life gain shouldn't hurt. Main reason for the for these additions is they both provide interaction and pressures the opponent/protects the walkers.
Feed back is welcome/encouraged. Thanks.
Cards I am not entirely certain of, are Liliana of the Veil...She is far from the worst card in the deck, but I do believe she is a bit at odds with standard iterations of Sultai. I think shells that really support her better, are probably lists leaning more towards draw/go... which is not really where Jace is at his best.
I'm not sure if you meant to say tap out instead of draw-go, but LotV is definitely not at her best in a draw-go shell. Liliana incentivizes us to discard, while draw-go shells want cards in hand. LotV is at her best in a tap out control shell, which is why I'm a huge fan of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy over Snapcaster, who is much better in a tap out shell.
Not really. I'd rather have a looting effect early and a recurring flashback effect later on. Snap is good, but after you get them with snap, the opponent doesn't really worry about a 2/1 like they would a plainswalker. His +1 ability is helpful too, with The Last Hope it really helps with defense for go-wide strategies.
If I'm running 2 Flayer, 2 JVP, 1 Tasigur, 1 Liliana of the Last Hope, and 2-3 Azcanta, should I at least be considering Thought Scour in some capacity?
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If I'm running 2 Flayer, 2 JVP, 1 Tasigur, 1 Liliana of the Last Hope, and 2-3 Azcanta, should I at least be considering Thought Scour in some capacity?
Yes, absolutely, I would replace any serum visions you have in your deck with Thought scour, It's an amazing engine and cantrip in this shell.
I also want to share the list I'm having success with:
This deck draws so many cards (Baby Jace, Search, Spreading Seas, Tireless tracker, JtMS) while playing the typical GB/x midrange attrition style game. I really feel like this is the kind of identity Sultai midrange should have. It is so much fun to play. A few things I want to point out:
1. Spreading Seas: I know some people are not a fan of the card, but I think it needs to be in everyone's 75. It's an early disruption early in the game that cantrips. turn 2 spreading seas after a turn one discard spell really sets the opponent up for a rough time. In the late game, it cantrips and neutralizes opponents' man-lands. It's also much more useful than you think. There are several decks running 20~ lands. That means they're made to run on 3~ lands effectively. If you make one of them an island, you've successfully thrown a wrench in their plans. Think of a deck like burn. They function on 2 lands most of the time and eventually draw into a 3rd. But by making a dual-land of theirs an island, you have slowed them down significantly.
2. Gifted Aetherborn: So good against burn and aggressive decks that have creatures. Can also replace an abrupt decay against control decks when they get boarded out.
3. Deathgorge Scavenger / Scavenger Ooze / Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet: All 3 of these cards in the sideboard are very versatile. They are all creatures that stop graveyard strategies and gain life. Also, don't sleep on the dino... I tried him out because having multiple oozes out at the same time can be very mana intensive. He has held his own and is good in grindy match ups.
4. Obstinate Baloth: Because LoTV and Kcommand are both played. Also a good body for the cost and life gain helps counter burn and aggressive strategies.
5. Only 2 JtMS because this deck draws a lot of cards and has been very impressive in games when JtMS doesn't make an appearance. I would cut a Search for Azcanta for a 3rd JtMS for those who like having 3.
Let me know what you guys think. Comments, critiques, criticisms... Happy brewing!
1. Spreading Seas: I know some people are not a fan of the card, but I think it needs to be in everyone's 75. It's an early disruption early in the game that cantrips. turn 2 spreading seas after a turn one discard spell really sets the opponent up for a rough time. In the late game, it cantrips and neutralizes opponents' man-lands. It's also much more useful than you think. There are several decks running 20~ lands. That means they're made to run on 3~ lands effectively. If you make one of them an island, you've successfully thrown a wrench in their plans. Think of a deck like burn. They function on 2 lands most of the time and eventually draw into a 3rd. But by making a dual-land of theirs an island, you have slowed them down significantly.
2. Gifted Aetherborn: So good against burn and aggressive decks that have creatures. Can also replace an abrupt decay against control decks when they get boarded out.
5. Only 2 JtMS because this deck draws a lot of cards and has been very impressive in games when JtMS doesn't make an appearance. I would cut a Search for Azcanta for a 3rd JtMS for those who like having 3.
Let me know what you guys think. Comments, critiques, criticisms... Happy brewing!
Extremely healthy post, I agree with alot of it. I've been thinking about Spreading seas and will try them as a 2-of in my list. I'm glad you also found success in running Gifted Aetherborn and that I'm not the only one who thought of it.
The 2 Jace plan is also what I felt the most comfortable with. Keeping the curve low is fine, to be honest most of the time turn 4 comes around, I want to swing with a tar pit or set up a good board state rather than "brainstorming" anyway.
The deck runs through cards like they are going out of style, that's true. I'm wondering how playing 3 of certain cards instead of 4 to make room for versatility would effect games. For example running 3 Fatal Push to make room for a Murderous Cut.
Cards I am not entirely certain of, are Liliana of the Veil...She is far from the worst card in the deck, but I do believe she is a bit at odds with standard iterations of Sultai. I think shells that really support her better, are probably lists leaning more towards draw/go... which is not really where Jace is at his best.
I'm not sure if you meant to say tap out instead of draw-go, but LotV is definitely not at her best in a draw-go shell. Liliana incentivizes us to discard, while draw-go shells want cards in hand. LotV is at her best in a tap out control shell, which is why I'm a huge fan of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy over Snapcaster, who is much better in a tap out shell.
No, I meant draw/go.
Here is my problem with LOTV - For the price of 1BB I can either commit a planeswalker to the board that offers parity plays in her discard, or I can commit a 2/1 body and get a one-sided discard effect for the price of UBB. Snapcaster Mage may not be a recurring discard effect, but it puts more pressure on the board to back up Tarmogoyf can can save you cards in hand at the same time. The lists I posted above do not really do the greatest job of redrawing cards and when you enter top deck mode, you are often times stuck there unless you are landing a Jace.
The reason I think she is generally more effective in a draw go deck, is that the angles are often completely different and thus you often have more ways to fill your hand up, meaning not only does she double as a removal spell, but also allows you to sidestep the parity on her discarding ability. Unless you have ways to be breaking this parity, she really is pretty mediocre. Jund gets away with this by adding things like Kolaghan's Command, Dark Confidant, Bloodbraid Elf.
I do not think she is bad in Sultai, but she is the least impressive card in the deck from the games I have ran. I will add a side note that the difference between having 2 in a list and 4 in a list, is actually pretty substantial. For this reason I think having her as a 4-of, is significantly better because you can maximize your early game more than if you have 2.
EDIT
I posted these in the Jace discussion in the main section, but they should also be posted here. These are from MTGO events, if anyone feels like looking them over.
Well, you’re certainly entitled to that opinion. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. Let us know how that works out for you.
+1 for the petty passive aggressive post.
Sorry, was in a mood yesterday, even though it's no excuse. I try my best to NOT let my emotions get to me on here and Reddit, because the last thing I want to do is deter people from discussing and playing BUG.
*Edit: I should have offered something more constructive to the conversation and I will when I have a moment.
I have been running a lot of games the last few days, with a couple of lists I will share below (along with thoughts on them). Overall, I am pretty happy with the archetype as a whole right now. It has shown to be pretty potent against an array of common Modern strategies and it is just a blast to play.
This first list was created because I wanted to have a little more ground game outside of just Tarmogoyf and Snapcaster Mage. Grim Flayer sounded appealing alongside Jace, the Mind Sculptor, so I went for it. The deck is actually pretty solid in game 1, and sometimes game 2 and 3 can hold up. Getting continuous flashback chances at cards like Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, and Thoughtseize could just be backbreaking when Jace' Vryn's Prodigy could flip. I have gotten him to flip pretty early at a decent rate. The deck often times finds itself with few cards in hand, and it was not uncommon to find myself in top deck battles to hit a threat followed by a second threat to snowball into a win. The deck has a lot of ways to protect him by being able to target their hand before they have the chance to kill something.
Search for Azcanta was a card I was not entirely impressed with. I had gotten it to flip a few times to allow me to dig for things, but I was noticing most of the time after flipping it, it was not even able to find the Grim Flayer or Tarmagoyf I really needed. There were a number of times I found myself just grabbing extra Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek, but already had Jace, Telepath Unbound. Hindsight, the enchantment was better if I just did not flip it and used it to scry every turn instead. That is not to say I did not have games where it flipped and I was able to dig into Abrupt Decay to stop Liliana of the Veil or Chalice of the Void on 2, to save me from flat out losing games.
The real problems I have with this list is that I am often finding myself fighting through Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus and Nihil Spellbomb. Once they see Grim Flayer, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Tarmogoyf, and Search for Azcanta, they focus on relieving the graveyard of cards and it is actually pretty effective. I was able to dig out of these situations a couple of times, but it is a struggle to not just die while doing so. The best way to combat this has been using discard in order to snipe these tools, but their resolution was rough. Eventually, I ended up modifying the list which became the list below.
This revision is where I am currently at after messing with not only he list above, but a few other variants as well (including the early versions not using Grim Flayer.
I solved the problem of GY hate by just removing the cards that were really drawing out the hate without any way to put in their own weight once resolved. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy relied an insane amount on the GY remaining intact, outside of looting he was such a rough card to see once Liliana of the Veil started soft locking the opponent out of keeping their hand stocked with options. Speaking of Liliana, as I said earlier, I think the correct numbers for her are either 0 or 4. I played with 2 and 3 and too often I found that I either did not see her at all, or did not see her enough. In the instances where I saw her too late, she was not always that relevant of a draw. Her value came from landing her as early as possible and using her along with Discard to force both players into top decking, and then hoping to get a Tarmogoyf or Grim Flayer to start closing out the game.
Grim Flayer remained in the list because he could still filter your draws while GY hate was out. Sometimes you really just need to bin the Thoughtseize on top to get the Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Tarmogoyf underneath it. Sometimes he can dig you to Abrupt Decay to get you back online after a GY hate card has resolved. He also allows you a means to toss cards you put back on top of your library with JTMS that you just don't want or need. Out of all the GY interacting cards from the original list, he could still stand on his own and provide secondary benefits for the deck as a whole. I have been pretty happy with the card.
Snapcaster Mage has been nice to have back over JVP to some extent. While you do not get the Planeswalker from him, you do get a body that can turn sideways and provide you additional discard opportunities all the same. I often side them out in games 2, and I think I would ultimately be doing the same for JVP if he were in this slot instead. It is hard to discern which one is better, but I have had numerous games where being able to just have that 2/1 body to go the distance while you are in middle of top decking, does enough work to justify him over JVP in most situations.
List #1 was not the best vs Tron decks or Eldrazi decks, and that was really the other pain point outside of GY hate. I feel list #2 is more well-rounded and deals with both the pain points that list #1 presented. The pain points of list #2 is really Blood Moon and Stone Rain more than anything. Proper fetching and smart mulligans have shown to start shoring that up pretty well. Fortunately most of your deck is cheap on the mana, I have gotten games from just riding out Goyf vs Ponza and drawing enough disruption to keep them off the expensive creature plan they have.
In regards to the weekends tournament results from the latest Modern events, I have done some testing vs Boggles prior. List #2 was actually pretty effective against them. Surprisingly, the MVP cards were not just the discard spells, but also Spreading Seas and Fulminator Mage to focus down their mana. The plan is similar against Tron, just target the mana. For Boggles, the games I played had them with just a couple of little dorks and not much mana to work with fast enough to dodge Damnation.
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STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Thoughts on Ancestral Vision? The Grixis list LSV did a video series ram 4 AV, 2 Azcanta.
Between Jace, JVP, Flayer, Liliana, Azcanta, we have ways to move dead copies mid to late.
When I ran AV, I was never really a fan unless it was dropped on turn 1, and even then sometimes we just got crushed before we drew our cards. It was too much of a liability to draw late game, on top of our Inquisitions and Thoughtseizes already being generally bad topdecks that late too.
Like you said though, now that we have Jaces, Flayer and Azcanta to filter away AV if it's going to be dead for us, I could definitely see testing it again.
Having looked over the recent lists here is sulti control a misnomer? These seem to be BG decks adding blue for card selection (sfa, Jace, serum). Few if any counterspells and a gameplan that just really looks no different from Jund or abzan- ie attrition.
Looks very midrange to me?
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Having looked over the recent lists here is sulti control a misnomer? These seem to be BG decks adding blue for card selection (sfa, Jace, serum). Few if any counterspells and a gameplan that just really looks no different from Jund or abzan- ie attrition.
Looks very midrange to me?
I think when this thread was originally created, Fabiano’s deck definitely blurred the lines a bit. Now, I’d firmly position the lists that are having the most success at midrange lists.
Moved the thread to the midrange section and renamed it from "Control" to "Midrange". Also if someone can step up and make a primer for the thread shoot me a PM and we can see what can be arranged.
I've been asking myself this question lately too, now that we're looking to hit our 4th land untapped for Jace, and I'm not exactly sure. I love how much the fastlands help our burn and aggro matchups, but they are definitely a dog when the game goes late. Maybe it's time to take out the fastlands this week and test it.
Also, thanks for the Mistys my friend.
But my optimism for Grim Flayer is not without fault. He leans us more towards graveyard interaction to really get the most out of him, which means he really gets hampered by hate cards. For this reason, 2 seems like a strange number because you want him early enough to get work in before hate cards start doing what they do, but 4 makes us more vulnerable. This has me asking if he really is something we want or if he is something we want to avoid. I suspect it really will be one or the other with no middle ground, in the end.
As for Search for Azcanta vs Serum Visions, I am not sure I can get behind that at all. While Search does some work, Visions attends to a spot on the curve that is kind of necessary in this format. I think the only way I could really get behind this is if some form of decent redraw can find its way into the list outside of just Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Unfortunately Sultai is cornered into trades that are really just too fair to get away with for the long haul and Visions lets you sidestep some of that burden by cycling while filtering. Search is also subject to the evermore prevalent Abrupt Decay, and I just don't see the payoff being there.
Anyways, here is the current list I have been working with
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Enchantment
2 Spreading Seas
Instant
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Serum Visions
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flashfreeze
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
So just a few things to note about Sultai and the general card selection (as this list is pretty generic).
Sultai, no matter what the list looks like, excels in playing an attrition game. While it is efficient in this regard, is really is not the greatest at recouping from a flat hand or an empty hand. When you are out of gas - you are out of gas. At least in the vast majority of situations. The upside here is that the deck plays straight gas early and mid game and it can round it off extremely well, just don't fall too far behind. Discard spells into beefy threats allow Jace to get on board and bottleneck your opponent into dealing with him, or dealing with your creatures. Cards like Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique are solid proactive disruption to help you along the way. For this reason, Spreading Seas can also get some decent mileage, especially where it can often matter most, such as the Jund match or the Tron match. In games where the land typing is not really all that relevant, it at least cantrips and can be boarded out with ease. Disruption has proven to be the best way to proactively play into your own JTMS.
Cards I am not entirely certain of, are Liliana of the Veil and Tarmogoyf. Liliana really helps you tear apart their hand, but without having a way to really redraw from a match where both players have 0 cards in hand, I find her to be fairly lackluster. She is far from the worst card in the deck, but I do believe she is a bit at odds with standard iterations of Sultai. I think shells that really support her better, are probably lists leaning more towards draw/go... which is not really where Jace is at his best. I suspect a different creature base could really just make this point moot, because something like Grim Flayer gives you some additional value from her and can filter your top decks which is better than just blindly drawing for better top decks. As for Tarmogoyf, I often find myself drawing and playing him when the board is more at parity and he is less exciting than Jund where I know my cards are more aggressive and can give him extra mileage on offense. Sure, there are enough times where he is beating down and is the way I will win the match... but it is slow. Compare him to something like Grim Flayer who is not hated out, and Flayer is often better because you can filter draws with him when a top deck can otherwise blow him out.
I guess the long story short here, is that the deck is not really the best at closing games. It can maintain parity well until something comes along to break that parity in your opponents favor and you slip back farther than the deck can often times catch up.
My win rate is pretty decent with the deck, so I do not mean to sound like I am dogging on the deck. I think it is pretty damn good all things considered. But my feedback is mainly there to contribute to the discussion of how the deck can be structured to have top decks where you can landslide your opponent at least.
Grim Flayer + Courser of Kruphix seems pretty appealing in a Sultai shell but I guess the ultimate question will be how we want to deal with GY hate in a more creature based shell. Perhaps just running them alongside Thoughtseize + Inquisition of Kozilek + Abrupt Decay is enough. I feel like a Flayer centric shell is likely to be more aggressive than the list I have above.
EDIT
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
Instant
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Serum Visions
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
This is probably what I would shift to after reflecting on my thoughts more. You don't get a whole lot of crazy with cards that have double typing for Grim Flayer, like Courser of Kruphix or anything. But I think that is fine. After jamming a quick few games Flayer can still get to 4/4 with relative ease using his ability. I got some pretty strong digging power with him.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
This thread caught my eye when Jace was announced and I've been lurking ever since. Thought I'd share my list with everyone and some of the experience I've had with it at my LGS.
// Deck: sultai delirium (60)
// Lands
1 Breeding Pool
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
// Creatures
2 Gifted Aetherborn
3 Grim Flayer
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tireless Tracker
// Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Logic Knot
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Serum Visions
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Thought Scour
3 Thoughtseize
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Damping Matrix
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Flaying Tendrils
SB: 3 Fulminator Mage
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Negate
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
The sideboard is kinda geared towards my local meta. I've taken some advice from your posts. Really like the JVP in the list. Probably taking out tireless trackers for something else. Went 2-2-1 in a 5 round tournament lastnight, not great.
Round 1. Coco Blood Artist (0-2)
Round 2. Scapeshift (2-0)
Round 3. Blue Moon (1-1-1)
Round 4. Pyromancer burn (2-1)
Round 5. Scapeshift (0-2)
Take-aways, Gifted Aetherborn was really helpful against burn. Tirless tracker wasn't great with my land base. Search for azcanta, grim flayer and jvp was great for turning on delirium and pumping goyf and giving me more options but might be too much and if I had to cut one I think it would be Search. Liliana, the Last Hope was great with jvp, they work well together. Thought scour can be great against JTMS.
Changes for me will most likely be
-1 Search for Azcanta
-2 Tireless Tracker
+2 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Vendilion Clique
Clique seems great and fills multiple rolls. Scooze for MD grave hate and some life gain shouldn't hurt. Main reason for the for these additions is they both provide interaction and pressures the opponent/protects the walkers.
Feed back is welcome/encouraged. Thanks.
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
Yes, absolutely, I would replace any serum visions you have in your deck with Thought scour, It's an amazing engine and cantrip in this shell.
I also want to share the list I'm having success with:
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Blooming Marsh
3 Verdant Catacomb
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 creeping tar pit
1 breeding pool
1 watery grave
1 overgrown tomb
2 swamp
1 island
1 forest
Critters (12)
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Enchantments (6)
3 Spreading Seas
3 Search for Azcanta
Sorceries (8)
3 thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Instants (6)
4 Fatal push
2 Abrupt decay
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Spreading Seas
1 Collective Brutality
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Gifted Aetherborn
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Deathgorge Scavenger
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Kalitas, traitor of Ghet
2 Damnation
3 negate
This deck draws so many cards (Baby Jace, Search, Spreading Seas, Tireless tracker, JtMS) while playing the typical GB/x midrange attrition style game. I really feel like this is the kind of identity Sultai midrange should have. It is so much fun to play. A few things I want to point out:
1. Spreading Seas: I know some people are not a fan of the card, but I think it needs to be in everyone's 75. It's an early disruption early in the game that cantrips. turn 2 spreading seas after a turn one discard spell really sets the opponent up for a rough time. In the late game, it cantrips and neutralizes opponents' man-lands. It's also much more useful than you think. There are several decks running 20~ lands. That means they're made to run on 3~ lands effectively. If you make one of them an island, you've successfully thrown a wrench in their plans. Think of a deck like burn. They function on 2 lands most of the time and eventually draw into a 3rd. But by making a dual-land of theirs an island, you have slowed them down significantly.
2. Gifted Aetherborn: So good against burn and aggressive decks that have creatures. Can also replace an abrupt decay against control decks when they get boarded out.
3. Deathgorge Scavenger / Scavenger Ooze / Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet: All 3 of these cards in the sideboard are very versatile. They are all creatures that stop graveyard strategies and gain life. Also, don't sleep on the dino... I tried him out because having multiple oozes out at the same time can be very mana intensive. He has held his own and is good in grindy match ups.
4. Obstinate Baloth: Because LoTV and Kcommand are both played. Also a good body for the cost and life gain helps counter burn and aggressive strategies.
5. Only 2 JtMS because this deck draws a lot of cards and has been very impressive in games when JtMS doesn't make an appearance. I would cut a Search for Azcanta for a 3rd JtMS for those who like having 3.
Let me know what you guys think. Comments, critiques, criticisms... Happy brewing!
UWRUWR MidrangeUWR
BUGSultai MidrangeBUG
BUGRTraverse MidrangeBUGR (currently brewing)
Extremely healthy post, I agree with alot of it. I've been thinking about Spreading seas and will try them as a 2-of in my list. I'm glad you also found success in running Gifted Aetherborn and that I'm not the only one who thought of it.
The 2 Jace plan is also what I felt the most comfortable with. Keeping the curve low is fine, to be honest most of the time turn 4 comes around, I want to swing with a tar pit or set up a good board state rather than "brainstorming" anyway.
The deck runs through cards like they are going out of style, that's true. I'm wondering how playing 3 of certain cards instead of 4 to make room for versatility would effect games. For example running 3 Fatal Push to make room for a Murderous Cut.
No, I meant draw/go.
Here is my problem with LOTV - For the price of 1BB I can either commit a planeswalker to the board that offers parity plays in her discard, or I can commit a 2/1 body and get a one-sided discard effect for the price of UBB. Snapcaster Mage may not be a recurring discard effect, but it puts more pressure on the board to back up Tarmogoyf can can save you cards in hand at the same time. The lists I posted above do not really do the greatest job of redrawing cards and when you enter top deck mode, you are often times stuck there unless you are landing a Jace.
The reason I think she is generally more effective in a draw go deck, is that the angles are often completely different and thus you often have more ways to fill your hand up, meaning not only does she double as a removal spell, but also allows you to sidestep the parity on her discarding ability. Unless you have ways to be breaking this parity, she really is pretty mediocre. Jund gets away with this by adding things like Kolaghan's Command, Dark Confidant, Bloodbraid Elf.
I do not think she is bad in Sultai, but she is the least impressive card in the deck from the games I have ran. I will add a side note that the difference between having 2 in a list and 4 in a list, is actually pretty substantial. For this reason I think having her as a 4-of, is significantly better because you can maximize your early game more than if you have 2.
EDIT
I posted these in the Jace discussion in the main section, but they should also be posted here. These are from MTGO events, if anyone feels like looking them over.
MR_DEATHCLOUD (5-0)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Sorcery
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Serum Visions
4 Thoughtseize
Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
2 Spreading Seas
Land
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
1 Flaying Tendrils
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
LIGHDAR (5-0)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
Sorcery
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Serum Visions
4 Thoughtseize
Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
2 Spreading Seas
Land
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
1 Flaying Tendrils
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
+1 for the petty passive aggressive post.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
*Edit: I should have offered something more constructive to the conversation and I will when I have a moment.
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Creature
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Enchantment
3 Search for Azcanta
Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
Sorcery
3 Serum Visions
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
This first list was created because I wanted to have a little more ground game outside of just Tarmogoyf and Snapcaster Mage. Grim Flayer sounded appealing alongside Jace, the Mind Sculptor, so I went for it. The deck is actually pretty solid in game 1, and sometimes game 2 and 3 can hold up. Getting continuous flashback chances at cards like Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, and Thoughtseize could just be backbreaking when Jace' Vryn's Prodigy could flip. I have gotten him to flip pretty early at a decent rate. The deck often times finds itself with few cards in hand, and it was not uncommon to find myself in top deck battles to hit a threat followed by a second threat to snowball into a win. The deck has a lot of ways to protect him by being able to target their hand before they have the chance to kill something.
Search for Azcanta was a card I was not entirely impressed with. I had gotten it to flip a few times to allow me to dig for things, but I was noticing most of the time after flipping it, it was not even able to find the Grim Flayer or Tarmagoyf I really needed. There were a number of times I found myself just grabbing extra Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek, but already had Jace, Telepath Unbound. Hindsight, the enchantment was better if I just did not flip it and used it to scry every turn instead. That is not to say I did not have games where it flipped and I was able to dig into Abrupt Decay to stop Liliana of the Veil or Chalice of the Void on 2, to save me from flat out losing games.
The real problems I have with this list is that I am often finding myself fighting through Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus and Nihil Spellbomb. Once they see Grim Flayer, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Tarmogoyf, and Search for Azcanta, they focus on relieving the graveyard of cards and it is actually pretty effective. I was able to dig out of these situations a couple of times, but it is a struggle to not just die while doing so. The best way to combat this has been using discard in order to snipe these tools, but their resolution was rough. Eventually, I ended up modifying the list which became the list below.
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
Creature
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
3 Snapcaster Mage
Enchantment
2 Spreading Seas
Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
This revision is where I am currently at after messing with not only he list above, but a few other variants as well (including the early versions not using Grim Flayer.
I solved the problem of GY hate by just removing the cards that were really drawing out the hate without any way to put in their own weight once resolved. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy relied an insane amount on the GY remaining intact, outside of looting he was such a rough card to see once Liliana of the Veil started soft locking the opponent out of keeping their hand stocked with options. Speaking of Liliana, as I said earlier, I think the correct numbers for her are either 0 or 4. I played with 2 and 3 and too often I found that I either did not see her at all, or did not see her enough. In the instances where I saw her too late, she was not always that relevant of a draw. Her value came from landing her as early as possible and using her along with Discard to force both players into top decking, and then hoping to get a Tarmogoyf or Grim Flayer to start closing out the game.
Grim Flayer remained in the list because he could still filter your draws while GY hate was out. Sometimes you really just need to bin the Thoughtseize on top to get the Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Tarmogoyf underneath it. Sometimes he can dig you to Abrupt Decay to get you back online after a GY hate card has resolved. He also allows you a means to toss cards you put back on top of your library with JTMS that you just don't want or need. Out of all the GY interacting cards from the original list, he could still stand on his own and provide secondary benefits for the deck as a whole. I have been pretty happy with the card.
Snapcaster Mage has been nice to have back over JVP to some extent. While you do not get the Planeswalker from him, you do get a body that can turn sideways and provide you additional discard opportunities all the same. I often side them out in games 2, and I think I would ultimately be doing the same for JVP if he were in this slot instead. It is hard to discern which one is better, but I have had numerous games where being able to just have that 2/1 body to go the distance while you are in middle of top decking, does enough work to justify him over JVP in most situations.
List #1 was not the best vs Tron decks or Eldrazi decks, and that was really the other pain point outside of GY hate. I feel list #2 is more well-rounded and deals with both the pain points that list #1 presented. The pain points of list #2 is really Blood Moon and Stone Rain more than anything. Proper fetching and smart mulligans have shown to start shoring that up pretty well. Fortunately most of your deck is cheap on the mana, I have gotten games from just riding out Goyf vs Ponza and drawing enough disruption to keep them off the expensive creature plan they have.
In regards to the weekends tournament results from the latest Modern events, I have done some testing vs Boggles prior. List #2 was actually pretty effective against them. Surprisingly, the MVP cards were not just the discard spells, but also Spreading Seas and Fulminator Mage to focus down their mana. The plan is similar against Tron, just target the mana. For Boggles, the games I played had them with just a couple of little dorks and not much mana to work with fast enough to dodge Damnation.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Between Jace, JVP, Flayer, Liliana, Azcanta, we have ways to move dead copies mid to late.
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
Like you said though, now that we have Jaces, Flayer and Azcanta to filter away AV if it's going to be dead for us, I could definitely see testing it again.
Looks very midrange to me?
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge