I've been a long time lurker on this thread and have been playing since Onslaught. BUG is a deck I've been trying to make work for the last 2 years, because it is my favorite color trio. IMHO I think JTMS puts us over the edge for the premier BG/x midrange deck. I think we just need to refocus the deck to dealing with early threats and let Jace act as a mid game/late game closer. I originally was trying to break Traverse in a BUG shell, but I think Jace will be better. Maybe both can be used in the same deck. Below is a first draft of JTMS Sultai Midrange:
For those who are not a fan of field of ruin or may be uncomfortable with it, I would substitute a fetch land and man land. JTMS seems to fit in like a glove here. Lets see what we can do with it! Happy brewing my Sultai brothers and sisters!
I would do it this way. But Iam a typically midrange player. Unfortunately midrange is dead with Jace in format.
So maybe a reactive control list with counter could be better.
SB isn't final of course and main adjusting should be a permanent process. Maybe cut JVP and add to more Mindsculptors.
Powerlevel is more important than versatile.
1. 4 JtMS is too many, he always side boarded one out. I think 3 is the right number. He played the deck well, but only won about 50% of games, in my opinion due to flaws in the deck (see below).
2. The creature base needs to have more than 6 threats + 2 Snapcaster Mage + 3 Creeping Tarpit. 4 Goyfs and 2 ScOoze is not enough. There were multiple times where this deck played well and then didn't draw enough threats. I felt that Jeff had to over rely on Creeping Tar-pit for damage. Flayer, Tracker, Delve-critters and others need to be considered.
3. Maelstrom Pulse is needed to handle planes walker. This deck is not great at dealing with Planeswalkers that have landed on an empty-ish board.
4. I completely disagree with Jeff on Search for Azcanta. He didn't include it because he says it doesn't solve any problems the deck has. Search helps filter cards early, which midrange needs, especially when it needs discard spells for combo decks. Late game it flips and can find answers needed to answer threats, or can find planes walkers that can be threats. It is a great support card. I agree with Jeff that Dark Confidant is not needed.
5. LtLH was very impressive and Collective Brutality underperformed. However, I still think it's a very powerful card.
@BK-V I tried to watch the Hoogland stream this morning, and then I was reminded why I don't watch him anymore. I agree with everything you said above, especially the part about Search for Azcanta. I cut Serum Visions entirely from my list as a result, and I don't think I'll be looking back anytime soon.
For those who haven't played Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, I encourage you to sleeve him up and give him a shot. I truly believe he works better in this shell than Snapcaster Mage a large majority of the time, since we're tapping out on our turn often.
22 lands my also seem a bit greedy in a shell without cantrips, but Search for Azcanta and Jace looting help us filter through the deck very quickly to find what we need.
Also, how does everyone feel about Courser of Kruphix in this meta? It blocks BBE well and has some great synergy with JtMS.
This is what I'll be trying next, after playing my previous build for a bit, I've become a bit skeptical on the fastland approach. The life savings is nice, but I'm still usually hitting the fetch/shock openers. As a result I was questioning Field of Ruin, but I'm not quite willing to totally abandon the fastlands. So I decided to split the difference, plus I put in 2 Jace. Here's the result
@BK-V I tried to watch the Hoogland stream this morning, and then I was reminded why I don't watch him anymore. I agree with everything you said above, especially the part about Search for Azcanta. I cut Serum Visions entirely from my list as a result, and I don't think I'll be looking back anytime soon.
For those who haven't played Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, I encourage you to sleeve him up and give him a shot. I truly believe he works better in this shell than Snapcaster Mage a large majority of the time, since we're tapping out on our turn often.
22 lands my also seem a bit greedy in a shell without cantrips, but Search for Azcanta and Jace looting help us filter through the deck very quickly to find what we need.
I'm definitely going to try running 3x Azcanta without Serum. I'm running Flayer. I like the idea of being able to legend rule one into the yard to activate delirium. But even then, if you have a Sunken Ruin, you can still play Search because of the "may" clause.
I could never play Prodigy over Snap though. Even though we don't have nearly as many instants as other blue shells, I think it's invaluable to be able to Snap Decay a Blood Moon or Snap Push a creature with haste to protect your Jace.
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@BK-V I tried to watch the Hoogland stream this morning, and then I was reminded why I don't watch him anymore. I agree with everything you said above, especially the part about Search for Azcanta. I cut Serum Visions entirely from my list as a result, and I don't think I'll be looking back anytime soon.
For those who haven't played Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, I encourage you to sleeve him up and give him a shot. I truly believe he works better in this shell than Snapcaster Mage a large majority of the time, since we're tapping out on our turn often.
22 lands my also seem a bit greedy in a shell without cantrips, but Search for Azcanta and Jace looting help us filter through the deck very quickly to find what we need.
I'm definitely going to try running 3x Azcanta without Serum. I'm running Flayer. I like the idea of being able to legend rule one into the yard to activate delirium. But even then, if you have a Sunken Ruin, you can still play Search because of the "may" clause.
I could never play Prodigy over Snap though. Even though we don't have nearly as many instants as other blue shells, I think it's invaluable to be able to Snap Decay a Blood Moon or Snap Push a creature with haste to protect your Jace.
I think it's going to depend on your build. If you're aiming to go long with a more control oriented build then obviously you have to include Snap. But after testing a more Rock oriented build in the mold of Jund/Abzan, Snap has been pretty clunky. The deck's average CMC is already a bit higher with Jace and often times I found myself with a LotV on the board but not wanting to +1 because I had something like Jace, Snap and a land in my hand. Specifically as it pertains to LotV, I think you want to take a more proactive approach and Snap is more reactive. This is why I think Vryn's Prodigy is worth testing. Something like a T1 IoK/TS followed by a T2 JVP followed by a T3 LotV is just much less clunky. The truth is, I really just want to play a BGx deck with Jace at the top end. If I was going to take a more controlling route with Snaps I'd probably just play some type of BUx pure control deck instead.
My main aversion to JVP is that he's slow and doesn't impact the board at all when he comes down. Snapcaster has an immediate impact and suits the Jund motif of 'just have the superior topdeck'.
I'm not buying any Jaces until the price comes down, I'm just continuing to brew without him for now. Here's what I have:
I'm unsure about two things though:
1. The threat package is a bit unfocused beyond Goyf. I goldfished a bunch with 3 Delve dudes and that often got clunky, but 2 of them seems fine. Beyond that, Vendilion Clique doesn't rely on the GY and fights Jaces quite well. Is this bunch of 2-offs alright, or should I focus more on a particular strategy?
2. 2 Countersqualls maindeck. They seem really powerful against certain decks, and it feel so wrong to play blue but not run any counters mainboard. I want more than just removal, too. However the nonbo with LotV pops up from time to time.. What do you guys think of these two in the main?
I think it's going to depend on your build. If you're aiming to go long with a more control oriented build then obviously you have to include Snap. But after testing a more Rock oriented build in the mold of Jund/Abzan, Snap has been pretty clunky. The deck's average CMC is already a bit higher with Jace and often times I found myself with a LotV on the board but not wanting to +1 because I had something like Jace, Snap and a land in my hand. Specifically as it pertains to LotV, I think you want to take a more proactive approach and Snap is more reactive. This is why I think Vryn's Prodigy is worth testing. Something like a T1 IoK/TS followed by a T2 JVP followed by a T3 LotV is just much less clunky. The truth is, I really just want to play a BGx deck with Jace at the top end. If I was going to take a more controlling route with Snaps I'd probably just play some type of BUx pure control deck instead.
Well said. And I don't believe it's one or the other either. It's definitely okay to run a split between the two. That's what I did for a long time and that's what Fabiano has been testing too. I went all-in on Jace since that's what I currently own and there's much less tension in the deck overall. That's just my personal feeling though, and I'd love to hear what others who are testing with him say, so we can get more data.
Hello one and all, there's a little bandwagon going on around here that I'd like to hop on. Like so many other people right now, I wanna do some brewing with Jace. I brew up nonsense all the time, but I rarely follow through with it past the "putting ideas down on paper stage". This seems like as good a time as any to break that streak. I don't have a ton of time to play, unfortunately (work, class, etc), but I've already got most, if not all, of the cards I'd need to go Sultai. GBx decks are cool. Jace is cool. So obviously they need to be combined. Here's my thought:
1) The sideboard. There's stuff and there's things and it hits some points I need to worry about in my local meta (having plan for the folks who always show up rocking midrange and control and some graveyard hate), but I'm definitely missing some things. I can probably pull the Natural State since I don't see any Affinity around in exchange for some needed Burn hate, but yeah. It's mostly just a bunch of good cards for various match-ups.
2) The mana. BUG seems to have tough mana requirements in general (Turn 1 B, Turn 2 1G/BG/1U, Turn 3 1BB/1G+B/GB+B are all possibles), but this deck seems especially all over the place. It's a GBx deck at heart, but the blue splash is there primarily for Jace, a double blue spell that I wanna be able to cast on time whenever the need arises.
3) Spreading Seas. I love the card, it's fantastic in Merfolk, I love that it sees play in UW (shoring up Tron and just being soltrong utility), but is it what the deck wants? I'm really trying to follow the GBx philosophy of winning topdeck wars. When the world goes hellbent, I want to be able to rip the highest quality cards the highest number of times. Spreading Seas is likely to be pretty low impact at that point, but it does give you a re-draw. Early game it's possibly disruption with a cantrip on top, but sometimes you play it on their only Black source only to see them untap, draw, and drop another and you basically did nothing but Think Twice, ya know? Is this slot better used as 2x Search for Azcanta, 1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and another piece of interaction like Abrupt Decay, Murderous Cut, or Collective Brutality?
So what do you fine folks think? As soon as I have the time to take it out for a spin at my LGS, I'm going to, but in the mean time, what looks good and what doesn't?
Hello one and all, there's a little bandwagon going on around here that I'd like to hop on. Like so many other people right now, I wanna do some brewing with Jace. I brew up nonsense all the time, but I rarely follow through with it past the "putting ideas down on paper stage". This seems like as good a time as any to break that streak. I don't have a ton of time to play, unfortunately (work, class, etc), but I've already got most, if not all, of the cards I'd need to go Sultai. GBx decks are cool. Jace is cool. So obviously they need to be combined. Here's my thought:
1) The sideboard. There's stuff and there's things and it hits some points I need to worry about in my local meta (having plan for the folks who always show up rocking midrange and control and some graveyard hate), but I'm definitely missing some things. I can probably pull the Natural State since I don't see any Affinity around in exchange for some needed Burn hate, but yeah. It's mostly just a bunch of good cards for various match-ups.
2) The mana. BUG seems to have tough mana requirements in general (Turn 1 B, Turn 2 1G/BG/1U, Turn 3 1BB/1G+B/GB+B are all possibles), but this deck seems especially all over the place. It's a GBx deck at heart, but the blue splash is there primarily for Jace, a double blue spell that I wanna be able to cast on time whenever the need arises.
3) Spreading Seas. I love the card, it's fantastic in Merfolk, I love that it sees play in UW (shoring up Tron and just being soltrong utility), but is it what the deck wants? I'm really trying to follow the GBx philosophy of winning topdeck wars. When the world goes hellbent, I want to be able to rip the highest quality cards the highest number of times. Spreading Seas is likely to be pretty low impact at that point, but it does give you a re-draw. Early game it's possibly disruption with a cantrip on top, but sometimes you play it on their only Black source only to see them untap, draw, and drop another and you basically did nothing but Think Twice, ya know? Is this slot better used as 2x Search for Azcanta, 1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and another piece of interaction like Abrupt Decay, Murderous Cut, or Collective Brutality?
So what do you fine folks think? As soon as I have the time to take it out for a spin at my LGS, I'm going to, but in the mean time, what looks good and what doesn't?
Your mana is a mess. Let's see if we can fix it. Your Sunken Ruins should probably me a Twilight Mire and your fast lands should probably change to a mix of Darkslick Shores and Blooming Marsh. You need to have black on turn 1 for you hand disruption, blue on turn 2 for Spreading seas (I think this should be cut for better spells), and you need multiple green for Scavenging Ooze.
So what do you fine folks think? As soon as I have the time to take it out for a spin at my LGS, I'm going to, but in the mean time, what looks good and what doesn't?
If you're going to run Grim Flayer, is there a way you could fit a second Spellbomb into the main? I think you could also add another Thoughtseize in place of an Inquisition – there's a lot of juicy targets for it to hit at the moment.
I'm also a fan of what Gen0syde86 is saying, in terms of swapping out the Botanical Sanctum for Darkslick Shores.
A Search for Azcanta or two could fit well with Flayer to help turn on Delirium.
What's the reasoning behind the Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard? Shutting off your own Snaps is a little bit counterintuitive, unless you're siding them out for the match you're bringing it in.
And regarding Natural State, I've swapped mine to Nature's Claim for Hollow One decks, to see if that helps shore up the matchup. I don't believe the 4 life is that much of a downside.
Your mana is a mess. Let's see if we can fix it. Your Sunken Ruins should probably me a Twilight Mire and your fast lands should probably change to a mix of Darkslick Shores and Blooming Marsh. You need to have black on turn 1 for you hand disruption, blue on turn 2 for Spreading seas (I think this should be cut for better spells), and you need multiple green for Scavenging Ooze.
So what do you fine folks think? As soon as I have the time to take it out for a spin at my LGS, I'm going to, but in the mean time, what looks good and what doesn't?
If you're going to run Grim Flayer, is there a way you could fit a second Spellbomb into the main? I think you could also add another Thoughtseize in place of an Inquisition – there's a lot of juicy targets for it to hit at the moment.
I'm also a fan of what Gen0syde86 is saying, in terms of swapping out the Botanical Sanctum for Darkslick Shores.
A Search for Azcanta or two could fit well with Flayer to help turn on Delirium.
What's the reasoning behind the Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard? Shutting off your own Snaps is a little bit counterintuitive, unless you're siding them out for the match you're bringing it in.
And regarding Natural State, I've swapped mine to Nature's Claim for Hollow One decks, to see if that helps shore up the matchup. I don't believe the 4 life is that much of a downside.
1. Flayer and Spellbomb package. Lifted from the Abzan lists before the unban. There is enough graveyard use out there that Spellbomb never feels dead in the main (Storm, Dredge, Snaps, Reveler, Delve). The synergy between Flayer, Azcanta, and Goyf feels really good. Goyf gets pretty big rather quickly. It's also nice using Flayer to wipe away Brainstorm chaff.
2. Azcanta over Serum Visions. It took me a while to get on board with this but I haven't looked back since. It's almost the perfect Bob replacement. We don't have the speed of red to close out games to mitigate the damage Bob gives.
3. Hero's Downfall is my flex spot. I've also had Murderous Cut, Go For The Throat, Collective Brutality, and an additional Thoughtseize in this spot.
4. I don't have any filter lands, hence the 3rd Blooming Marsh. Would I be better off with a Woodland Cemetary/Drowned Catacomb?
Your mana is a mess. Let's see if we can fix it. Your Sunken Ruins should probably me a Twilight Mire and your fast lands should probably change to a mix of Darkslick Shores and Blooming Marsh. You need to have black on turn 1 for you hand disruption, blue on turn 2 for Spreading seas (I think this should be cut for better spells), and you need multiple green for Scavenging Ooze.
So what do you fine folks think? As soon as I have the time to take it out for a spin at my LGS, I'm going to, but in the mean time, what looks good and what doesn't?
If you're going to run Grim Flayer, is there a way you could fit a second Spellbomb into the main? I think you could also add another Thoughtseize in place of an Inquisition – there's a lot of juicy targets for it to hit at the moment.
I'm also a fan of what Gen0syde86 is saying, in terms of swapping out the Botanical Sanctum for Darkslick Shores.
A Search for Azcanta or two could fit well with Flayer to help turn on Delirium.
What's the reasoning behind the Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard? Shutting off your own Snaps is a little bit counterintuitive, unless you're siding them out for the match you're bringing it in.
And regarding Natural State, I've swapped mine to Nature's Claim for Hollow One decks, to see if that helps shore up the matchup. I don't believe the 4 life is that much of a downside.
2 island
2 swamp
1 forest
4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacomb
1 watery grave
1 overgrown tomb
1 breeding pool
3 darkslick shores
2 creeping tar pit
2 field of ruin
Creatures (9)
4 tarmogoyf
3 snapcaster mage
1 scavenging ooze
1 tireless tracker
3 liliana of the veil
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
sorceries (14)
3 inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 serum visions
2 maelstrom Pulse
2 Bontu's last reckoning
Instants (8)
3 fatal push
2 opt
2 abrupt decay
1 dismember
For those who are not a fan of field of ruin or may be uncomfortable with it, I would substitute a fetch land and man land. JTMS seems to fit in like a glove here. Lets see what we can do with it! Happy brewing my Sultai brothers and sisters!
UWRUWR MidrangeUWR
BUGSultai MidrangeBUG
BUGRTraverse MidrangeBUGR (currently brewing)
So maybe a reactive control list with counter could be better.
SB isn't final of course and main adjusting should be a permanent process. Maybe cut JVP and add to more Mindsculptors.
Powerlevel is more important than versatile.
1 Breeding Pool
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
//Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
4 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Serum Visions
3 Thoughtseize
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Rain of Tears
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x The Scarab God
1x Vendillion Clique
Spells(30)
4x Fatal Push
4x Serum Visions
3x Cryptic Command
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Damnation
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Logic Knot
2x Thoughtseize
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Negate
1x Search for Azcanta
1x Spell Snare
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Darkslick Shores
3x Island
2x Breeding Pool
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Swamp
2x Verdant Catacomb
1x Forest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Watery Grave
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Collective Brutality
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Dispel
1x Entrancing Melody
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Thragtusk
Brewing with Jace and this is the Sultai list I brewed up. Much more controlling than some of the versions I have seen on here
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
His list:
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
4 Fatal Push
2 Swamp
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Island
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Collective Brutality
4 Serum Visions
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Forest
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thoughtseize
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
2 Countersquall
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Damnation
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Vendilion Clique
Some take aways:
1. 4 JtMS is too many, he always side boarded one out. I think 3 is the right number. He played the deck well, but only won about 50% of games, in my opinion due to flaws in the deck (see below).
2. The creature base needs to have more than 6 threats + 2 Snapcaster Mage + 3 Creeping Tarpit. 4 Goyfs and 2 ScOoze is not enough. There were multiple times where this deck played well and then didn't draw enough threats. I felt that Jeff had to over rely on Creeping Tar-pit for damage. Flayer, Tracker, Delve-critters and others need to be considered.
3. Maelstrom Pulse is needed to handle planes walker. This deck is not great at dealing with Planeswalkers that have landed on an empty-ish board.
4. I completely disagree with Jeff on Search for Azcanta. He didn't include it because he says it doesn't solve any problems the deck has. Search helps filter cards early, which midrange needs, especially when it needs discard spells for combo decks. Late game it flips and can find answers needed to answer threats, or can find planes walkers that can be threats. It is a great support card. I agree with Jeff that Dark Confidant is not needed.
5. LtLH was very impressive and Collective Brutality underperformed. However, I still think it's a very powerful card.
An update to my list:
2 island
2 swamp
1 forest
4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacomb
1 watery grave
1 overgrown tomb
1 breeding pool
3 darkslick shores
2 creeping tar pit
2 field of ruin
Creatures (10)
4 tarmogoyf
2 snapcaster mage
2 scavenging ooze
2 tireless tracker
3 liliana of the veil
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
sorceries (12)
2 inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 serum visions
2 maelstrom Pulse
Instants (6)
4 fatal push
2 abrupt decay
Enchantments (2)
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Countersquall
1 collective brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Bontu's last reckoning
3 Fulminator Mage
3 golgari charm
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
UWRUWR MidrangeUWR
BUGSultai MidrangeBUG
BUGRTraverse MidrangeBUGR (currently brewing)
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Breeding Pool
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
2x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
1x Watery Grave
Creature (11)
3x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
4x Fatal Push
Planeswalker (7)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Enchantment (3)
3x Search for Azcanta
Sorcery (9)
1x Collective Brutality
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
1x Collective Brutality
3x Disdainful Stroke
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Negate
3x Nihil Spellbomb
For those who haven't played Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, I encourage you to sleeve him up and give him a shot. I truly believe he works better in this shell than Snapcaster Mage a large majority of the time, since we're tapping out on our turn often.
22 lands my also seem a bit greedy in a shell without cantrips, but Search for Azcanta and Jace looting help us filter through the deck very quickly to find what we need.
Also, how does everyone feel about Courser of Kruphix in this meta? It blocks BBE well and has some great synergy with JtMS.
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Field of Ruin
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
Creatures 10
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Hooting Mandrills
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jace, Cunning Castaway
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells 22
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Opt
2 Serum Visions
2 Thought Scour
1 Duress
2 Fatal Push
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Search for Azcanta
1 Bitterblossom
1 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dispel
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
1 Negate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
SB feels a little loose right now, suggestions welcome.
I'm definitely going to try running 3x Azcanta without Serum. I'm running Flayer. I like the idea of being able to legend rule one into the yard to activate delirium. But even then, if you have a Sunken Ruin, you can still play Search because of the "may" clause.
I could never play Prodigy over Snap though. Even though we don't have nearly as many instants as other blue shells, I think it's invaluable to be able to Snap Decay a Blood Moon or Snap Push a creature with haste to protect your Jace.
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
I think it's going to depend on your build. If you're aiming to go long with a more control oriented build then obviously you have to include Snap. But after testing a more Rock oriented build in the mold of Jund/Abzan, Snap has been pretty clunky. The deck's average CMC is already a bit higher with Jace and often times I found myself with a LotV on the board but not wanting to +1 because I had something like Jace, Snap and a land in my hand. Specifically as it pertains to LotV, I think you want to take a more proactive approach and Snap is more reactive. This is why I think Vryn's Prodigy is worth testing. Something like a T1 IoK/TS followed by a T2 JVP followed by a T3 LotV is just much less clunky. The truth is, I really just want to play a BGx deck with Jace at the top end. If I was going to take a more controlling route with Snaps I'd probably just play some type of BUx pure control deck instead.
I'm not buying any Jaces until the price comes down, I'm just continuing to brew without him for now. Here's what I have:
1x Breeding Pool
1x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Forest
1x Island
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
Planeswalker (4)
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Creature (13)
1x Gurmag Angler
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Countersquall
4x Fatal Push
1x Go for the Throat
4x Thought Scour
Enchantment (2)
2x Search for Azcanta
Sorcery (6)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
2x Bitterblossom
3x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Go for the Throat
2x Spell Pierce
2x Surgical Extraction
I'm unsure about two things though:
1. The threat package is a bit unfocused beyond Goyf. I goldfished a bunch with 3 Delve dudes and that often got clunky, but 2 of them seems fine. Beyond that, Vendilion Clique doesn't rely on the GY and fights Jaces quite well. Is this bunch of 2-offs alright, or should I focus more on a particular strategy?
2. 2 Countersqualls maindeck. They seem really powerful against certain decks, and it feel so wrong to play blue but not run any counters mainboard. I want more than just removal, too. However the nonbo with LotV pops up from time to time.. What do you guys think of these two in the main?
4x Grim Flayer
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
Instants (6)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Fatal Push
Sorceries (8)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
Enchantments (4)
4x Spreading Seas
Artifacts (1)
1x Nihil Spellbomb
Planeswalkers (6)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Breeding Pool
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Forest
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Sunken Ruins
2x Swamp
1x Watery Grave
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Natural State
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Tireless Tracker
Couple specific points I'm not sure about:
1) The sideboard. There's stuff and there's things and it hits some points I need to worry about in my local meta (having plan for the folks who always show up rocking midrange and control and some graveyard hate), but I'm definitely missing some things. I can probably pull the Natural State since I don't see any Affinity around in exchange for some needed Burn hate, but yeah. It's mostly just a bunch of good cards for various match-ups.
2) The mana. BUG seems to have tough mana requirements in general (Turn 1 B, Turn 2 1G/BG/1U, Turn 3 1BB/1G+B/GB+B are all possibles), but this deck seems especially all over the place. It's a GBx deck at heart, but the blue splash is there primarily for Jace, a double blue spell that I wanna be able to cast on time whenever the need arises.
3) Spreading Seas. I love the card, it's fantastic in Merfolk, I love that it sees play in UW (shoring up Tron and just being soltrong utility), but is it what the deck wants? I'm really trying to follow the GBx philosophy of winning topdeck wars. When the world goes hellbent, I want to be able to rip the highest quality cards the highest number of times. Spreading Seas is likely to be pretty low impact at that point, but it does give you a re-draw. Early game it's possibly disruption with a cantrip on top, but sometimes you play it on their only Black source only to see them untap, draw, and drop another and you basically did nothing but Think Twice, ya know? Is this slot better used as 2x Search for Azcanta, 1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, and another piece of interaction like Abrupt Decay, Murderous Cut, or Collective Brutality?
So what do you fine folks think? As soon as I have the time to take it out for a spin at my LGS, I'm going to, but in the mean time, what looks good and what doesn't?
Whatever I build from my Box-o-EDH stuff
Legacy
Sneak and Show
UR Delver
Scapeshift Nic Fit
Modern
Merfolk
// 60 Maindeck
// 10 Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vendilion Clique
// 3 Enchantment
2 Spreading Seas
1 Search for Azcanta
// 6 Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
// 22 Land
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
// 7 Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
// 12 Sorcery
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Serum Visions
2 Maelstrom Pulse
// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Fulminator Mage
// 5 Instant
SB: 2 Ceremonious Rejection
SB: 2 Countersquall
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
// 5 Sorcery
SB: 2 Damnation
SB: 1 Flaying Tendrils
SB: 2 Collective Brutality
Modern: Mono U Tron, Ajundi, Ad Nauseam, TITI Moon, GR Ponza, 5C Humans
Legacy: Lands, Mono Red Sneak, 4C Loam
What do u think of night souls betrayal on Sideboar ??
It kills our snapcastgers but it is greate agains Elfs, Afinity, Infect, Mardu Pyromancer and a lot of other decks.
Other thing that i'm thinking about is adding 2 Bitterblossom over Seas/Lili last hope.
OBS: Or Betrayal or Blossom.
Your mana is a mess. Let's see if we can fix it. Your Sunken Ruins should probably me a Twilight Mire and your fast lands should probably change to a mix of Darkslick Shores and Blooming Marsh. You need to have black on turn 1 for you hand disruption, blue on turn 2 for Spreading seas (I think this should be cut for better spells), and you need multiple green for Scavenging Ooze.
I'm also a fan of what Gen0syde86 is saying, in terms of swapping out the Botanical Sanctum for Darkslick Shores.
A Search for Azcanta or two could fit well with Flayer to help turn on Delirium.
I also think you'd benefit from a Liliana, the Last Hope somewhere in the 75.
What's the reasoning behind the Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard? Shutting off your own Snaps is a little bit counterintuitive, unless you're siding them out for the match you're bringing it in.
And regarding Natural State, I've swapped mine to Nature's Claim for Hollow One decks, to see if that helps shore up the matchup. I don't believe the 4 life is that much of a downside.
So would something along the lines of this sound better?
-1 Sunken Ruins, +1 Twilight Mire
-1 Botanical Sanctum, +1 Darkslick Shores
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek, +1 Thoughtseize
-4 Spreading Seas, +2 Search for Azcanta, +1 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Murderous Cut
-1 Grafdigger's Cage, -1 Nihil Spellbomb, +2 Feed the Clan (sideboard)
-1 Tireless Tracker, +1 Liliana, the Last Hope (sideboard)
4x Grim Flayer
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
Instants (7)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Fatal Push
1x Murderous Cut
Sorceries (8)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
Enchantments (2)
2x Search for Azcanta
Artifacts (2)
2x Nihil Spellbomb
Planeswalkers (6)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Breeding Pool
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Swamp
1x Twilight Mire
1x Watery Grave
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Feed the Clan
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Natural State
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
Or do you think replacing the Spreading Seas with just straight 4x Serum Visions is better than a smattering of other cute cards?
Whatever I build from my Box-o-EDH stuff
Legacy
Sneak and Show
UR Delver
Scapeshift Nic Fit
Modern
Merfolk
Let us know it runs when you do play it.
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Blooming Marsh
2x Darkslick Shores
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Grim Flayer
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Planeswalkers
3x Jace, The Mindsculptor
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana of the Last Hope
Instants
4x Fatal Push
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Hero's Downfall
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
2x Maelstrom Pulse
Artifacts
2x Nihil Spellbomb
Enchantments
3x Search for Azcanta
Sideboard is still being shaped and molded.
1. Flayer and Spellbomb package. Lifted from the Abzan lists before the unban. There is enough graveyard use out there that Spellbomb never feels dead in the main (Storm, Dredge, Snaps, Reveler, Delve). The synergy between Flayer, Azcanta, and Goyf feels really good. Goyf gets pretty big rather quickly. It's also nice using Flayer to wipe away Brainstorm chaff.
2. Azcanta over Serum Visions. It took me a while to get on board with this but I haven't looked back since. It's almost the perfect Bob replacement. We don't have the speed of red to close out games to mitigate the damage Bob gives.
3. Hero's Downfall is my flex spot. I've also had Murderous Cut, Go For The Throat, Collective Brutality, and an additional Thoughtseize in this spot.
4. I don't have any filter lands, hence the 3rd Blooming Marsh. Would I be better off with a Woodland Cemetary/Drowned Catacomb?
David Ochoa: "Mono-bacon!..."
This looks much better! now the deck is starting to look like a solid pile of cards