while saving my counters for something more important than blowing it all on protecting a Resto.
Also why should i blow all my protection on the resto angel? I have 3 of them + collonades + other creature threats. If my opponents uses counters to combat my angels, thats just giving me superiority in resolving sphinx revs and similar stuff. If they remove it, they remove it....
The plan is that i play a Resto EoT if the mana was not used for counterspells/removal. The resto replaces it self by drawing me a card and stabilizes my board or beginns setting a clock if im in to position to do so. I still untap with mana and interactive spells availible.
Im going play a white suns zenith in the sideboard against decks where i need it.(thats something i was thinking about)
I really don't want to spend 4 mana at instant speed to either get a land or Raven's Crime my opponent. :/
If they path your resto, they also have to pay 1 mana and you get 2 cards ahead because
-you get a land
-you get a card of the blink effect
-and they loose a card
(not too shabby and a much better rate than you pay for think twice (which i know has its well earned spot in draw go lists, but just for the sake of your argument))
I may not agree with it 100%, but your reasoning is pretty sound. I'm excited to see how it plays out for you.
I might test it a little too, but I'm not on XMage at all any more -- school is just more important (my major is Biochemistry). I still play occassionally on paper, but I actually uninstalled XMage entirely to make sure I don't get distracted. T_T
If you try to protect resto angel and it fails to get you there, thats a loss for us.
WSZ in the board sounds legitimately terrible.
If you want a wincon against midrange/control, elspeth or something would be straight up better.
I feel like you're evaluating resto in base case scenario too much.
What if you didn't have the wall, or chumped with it earlier. Lets say they've got a goyf in play, its a 5/6, and you draw resto angel on your turn 4. You can play it before you untap, but you don't get a card, you can't race, you can't trade. If you find a wrath to answer the goyf, you kill the angel.
If you don't play the angel, hopefully you have other worthwhile plays to make.
That all being said, resto angel has its place in tap out U/W lists, but theres a reason no one plays anything like that in draw-go.
If you want a wincon, play a wincon, not a medium cost, sometimes kinda alright thing.
Honestly though, I think a lot of these lists belong in the UW control forum. Kitchen finks/wall/angel is enough to push your deck into tapout control, and even if you're playing esper, your strategy is simply not the same.
The major focus on the control v control matchup is because playing all that crap makes your matchup worse.
Esper is good because it crushes midrange and control, and its one of the best decks that can do that. UW control w/ finks and friends is played because it fixes esper's weaker aggro matchup, not because its better at what esper does.
While the creatures aren't necessarily bad in those matchups, they're worse than whatever a stock esper list would play in those slots, on the whole.
Avacyn is better not only because shes better vs control/midrange, but because she's a more compact wincon thats actually a lot stronger at winning the game.
I'll grant you that if zoo, burn, etc are your major, major concerns, adding creatures is a perfectly reasonable way to go about it.
You are weakening your control matchup for doing this. It might still be favorable, but with the possible exception of blue based tron, esper draw-go is stronger against those types of decks that the UW finks/resto angel decks, and adding esper charms isn't enough to change that.
Anyone card to explain the position of Remand in control decks?
I've always regarded Remand as purely a tempo card, for tempo decks trying to win quickly with disruption. After looking at the card more, I can see how it could be relevant in a hard controlling deck, primarily to hit land drops and increase keep-able opening hands, while stalling to get to the point where we chain Cryptics with Snapcaster and then eventually go over the top with Sphinx Rev or WSZ.
The problem I see is to fit Remand in, you'd most likely have to take out something like Logic Knot. Kind of trading power (hard counter) for consistency (draw a card.) I can see Remand being "strictly" worse than Logic Knot against decks like 1-2 drop aggro or Burn, but I can also see Remand being more valuable in a lot of other match ups, while drawing through the deck and keeping it smoother, but then again we aren't trying to close fast but we do want to draw cards. Interesting card the more I think about it.
To the BUG Teachings players: Do you play Mystic Snake? And if you were to play Mystic Snake, what do you cut for it? Some Cryptics since it's a 4 mana counter too?
Remand is all about time.
Now, tempo is also about time, which is why remand is often seen as a tempo card, but its not exclusive to this.
Tempo, and what defines tempo cards, is that they're playing different classifications of cards.
Lets take a classic tempo deck, say, RUG Thresh, (we're using legacy cuz mdoern has no real + good tempo decks). http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14591&d=287502&f=LE
here is a random list for reference.
Its a got a couple of things going on here. You've got lands, obviously, but then you've got some different classification of spells and creatures.
Your creatures here are incredibly efficient beaters, with two exceptions: TNN and Lavamancer. TNN is more resiliant, but despite not being the most efficient, is still plenty capable of ending the game.
Lavamancer shows up as a singleton for different reasons, but its not terribly related to the main gameplan.
Your spells also break down into a few different catagories:
Counterspells: all of your counterspells are (or potentially are) "tempo positive" meaning your opportunity cost for casting them is less or on par with your opponent's opportunity costs.
You have removal, in dismember and bolt. Its also cheap, and like the counterspells, it "trades up" and costs you less than your opponent.
You have consistency tools (brainstorm and ponder) which inherently are NOT tempo cards. Unlike most of the rest of your deck, they trade mana for "nothing" or atleast nothing tangible. They have their place in the deck (turning on lavamancer, goyf, mongoose, consistency, etc) but they are not tempo cards. Despite this, a tempo deck makes room for them due to how they interact with the rest of the deck, and its gameplan.
The last card is stifle. One of the inherent "tempo" cards along side daze and delver. Stifle, as we all know, is basically a 1-mana stone rain.
However, in this deck (and in most decks that run them) it offers a little more than that. Being able to trade a card and a mana for an opponents land (which adds up to 1 mana per untap phase) is often a very powerful play.
In the case of daze and pierce, as well as stifle, they offer some inherent gameplay advantages if your opponent has seen them, or chooses to play around them, due to playing "around" them and playing behind curve.
Now, tempo decks attempt to use cards that provide timing advantages to end the game quickly. Generally, cards that are "tempo positive" are ones that both provide pressure as well as timing advantages, though sometimes just the timing advantage. Cards like spellstutter sprite and reflector mage are prime examples of this.
I won't get more bogged down on tempo as an archtype (there is plenty written on this already), but lets look back on the cantrips for a minute.
RUG Delver seems like such a streamlined deck, with stifles and wastelands to slow your opponent down, coupled with dazes/pierces, and some harder answers, which all help cards like delver and mongoose end the game before your opponent can overcome the roadblocks you've placed down.
And yet brainstorm gives up a little bit of that tempo advantage you've worked for, and still makes the cut.
It provides many benefits to deck, in terms of how it helps out other cards in your deck, and its no surprise that a blue deck is playing it, because what it adds is worth more than what it takes away, despite it going against the game plan.
In our deck, remand is much the same way, though significantly more meta dependent, and possessing less raw power. (A quick note, the original wafo list did not cut logic knots for remands, exactly. They exist in different slots)
Remand is only a soft answer, meaning it doesn't permanently answer its target.
In a control deck that can't kill our opponent before that matters (like grixis delver for example, though they don't always play remand either...) it seems out of place, but it does provide us advantages:
1) Its card velocity. Its not card advantage, but it allows us to keep up the ability to dig through our deck without giving up our ability to interact.
2) Its delays t3 plays into cryptic command. This is the biggest one, IMO. In a deck with 4 cc, we've all been beaten by fulminator mages, by lilianas, and other things, because they can come down under cryptic. A second small point, but it can stop jund from activating lili for a turn if they don't want to discard their card, and have nothing else to discard (if they discard it anyways, thats also something remand has provided)
3) It synergizes well with wrath of god. It digs us towards a wrath, which can often mean life or death, but it also keeps us afloat with one less threat to deal with we try to find that wrath. If the threat was worthwhile enough for them to cast, theres a good chance they need it to sufficiently clock us, and they'll recast it. If we go past t4 without wrathing, they may be more inclined to commit to the board to kill us, which can play right into our hands.
4) Its sometimes a hard counter. Against flashback, or remanding our own spells, we can get more out of it that simply tempo.
Of course, when all of the popular decks are 1drop aggro decks, its fairly weak, but its likely to start being seen again.
I posted a while ago about remand/shadow of doubt in regards to people quesitoning their place, but think about it like this:
However you rank resources in this deck (and magic in general), try thinking about it as you do, but with time being the number one.
Inherently, "time" or more turns directly relates to more cards, more lands in play, and more mana to spend (though you're spending some of that mana to get the time).
If you try to protect resto angel and it fails to get you there, thats a loss for us.
WSZ in the board sounds legitimately terrible.
If you want a wincon against midrange/control, elspeth or something would be straight up better.
I feel like you're evaluating resto in base case scenario too much.
What if you didn't have the wall, or chumped with it earlier. Lets say they've got a goyf in play, its a 5/6, and you draw resto angel on your turn 4. You can play it before you untap, but you don't get a card, you can't race, you can't trade. If you find a wrath to answer the goyf, you kill the angel.
If you don't play the angel, hopefully you have other worthwhile plays to make.
well with 4 path, 3 fatal push, and 2 verdicts, it's hard to believe that goyf is going to survive long enough to be a problem. Restoration angel has also been historically great against Jund, as it dodges abrupt decay and can be flashed in EoT to put an evasive clock on a LotV. It's probably a little worse now because it dies to fatal push, but that matchup is still solidly in 100% in our favor.
That all being said, resto angel has its place in tap out U/W lists, but theres a reason no one plays anything like that in draw-go.
If you want a wincon, play a wincon, not a medium cost, sometimes kinda alright thing.
Honestly though, I think a lot of these lists belong in the UW control forum. Kitchen finks/wall/angel is enough to push your deck into tapout control, and even if you're playing esper, your strategy is simply not the same.
Sure, if I was playing UW. I could cross post there to see what they think as well, but there's much less activity in their forum and it's closer to esper draw go than traditional UW lists. As far as calling it a tap out list, I disagree. 3 walls and 2 finks doesn't mean I'm playing tapout, as I'm not forced to play them on curve and don't have to play finks on t3 in a control/midrange matchup.
The major focus on the control v control matchup is because playing all that crap makes your matchup worse.
Esper is good because it crushes midrange and control, and its one of the best decks that can do that. UW control w/ finks and friends is played because it fixes esper's weaker aggro matchup, not because its better at what esper does.
While the creatures aren't necessarily bad in those matchups, they're worse than whatever a stock esper list would play in those slots, on the whole.
Even if it makes the matchup slightly worse, the matchup is still greatly in our favor because of Sphinx's Rev and Esper charm coupled w/ tons of removal and board wipes. If I drop from 70% winrate to 60% winrate to boost my aggro and burn matchups equally, then I consider that a net gain. I'm still very favored against those matchups, but now have at least 50% chance of beating burn g1 as well, as opposed to basically starting my rounds on g2 with a g1 autoloss.
Avacyn is better not only because shes better vs control/midrange, but because she's a more compact wincon thats actually a lot stronger at winning the game.
I'll grant you that if zoo, burn, etc are your major, major concerns, adding creatures is a perfectly reasonable way to go about it.
You are weakening your control matchup for doing this. It might still be favorable, but with the possible exception of blue based tron, esper draw-go is stronger against those types of decks that the UW finks/resto angel decks, and adding esper charms isn't enough to change that.
When Avacyn was first spoiled, I was leading the hype train. Since then I've tried to jam her into basically every White based control list I've built, and she just doesn't play as well in game as she look in paper. She's a faster clock, and the vigilance is nice, but resto is more consistently good in our actual bad matchups. Resto saves finks/manlands that are being targeted w/ removal, and can blink kitchen finks to pull us out of bolt range against burn and grixis control/delver, and goes a long way towards stabilizing in those matchups. Also if you're suggesting to straight swap resto for Avacyn, then she's no more compact, as it's just a 1 for 1 card swap. I'm not playing Resto and jamming walls and finks to justify her; I'm playing walls and finks, and jamming resto because of the extra synergy she provides at that point.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
Like your decklist a lot actually. I am also looking for ways to improve burn matchup since they are running rampant in my area, just have a quick couple of questions...
Isn't lone missionary a better way to hose burn then kitchen finks maindeck? Relevant body and easier to cast, better target for a Restoration Angel as well.
Is 26 lands really necessary? Old esper player here in my time people rarely went over 24 lands in control decks. Yeah I'm that old. Pardon if questions seem stupid, been away from esper quite a while....
Thanks in advance!
Lone missionary might be better if I'm strictly trying to beat burn, but finks' persist ability also allows you to extract extra value by trading w/ multiple creatures, or just being generally difficult to remove from play. Where missionary is good against burn, finks is good in a ton of matchups in modern. Consider playing against abzan company and blocking a creature to kill it and gain 2 off the persist, then blinking it w/ resto to reset it.
edit: 26 lands is because this deck really wants to go into the late game and never miss a land drop so you can cast sphinx's revelation for big numbers.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
I think Secure the Wastes is more flexible, efficient, and better positioned than White Sun's Zenith. It's fine early, mid, and late, it's less mana restrictive, synergizes with Snap, and can create more bodies, which can be more problematic than more power (i.e. Lingering Souls).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm the founder and community manager of the following pages on Facebook:
MTG Modern - Competitive: UWx Midrange/Control
Facebook.com/ModernUWxControl
MTG Modern - Competitive: UWx Midrange/Control Community
Facebook.com/Groups/MTGModernUWx
I'm also an Admin for one of the premier Modern communities on Facebook:
It's exiled, as per the replacement effect of flashback.
Also, to everyone playing Thoughseizes in the board: Might Duress be a substitute? It seems better against burn and still has relevance VS Tron and other control lists, whose most dangerous threats are non-creatures anyway. It's also information plus a card without worrying about your life total VS Bolt decks.
STW is a fine card. Good even. For me, I've found that Torrential Gearhulk is more on the game-plan of the deck. Yes, it is 6 mana, and it is a spell so it's not entirely fair to compare it to Colonnade (which also requires 6 mana (5 + itself on the field) to fire up), but the deck is built to get to 6 mana in every MU. The decks ability to win before you get to 6 mana is low teens% if that. I've also always liked a Clique in the MB that can disrupt combo decks, pressure the big mana decks, and give valuable information/snipe a counter out of a control deck.
So for me, I'm running 3 Snaps, 2 Gearhulks, 1 Clique, 2 Colonnades, and 1 Tar Pit as my win-cons. They all have value/disruption attached, which is what I am primarily looking for in a deck like Esper. I can't fault anyone for playing WSZ or STW since they do what they do well as a dedicated win-con. I'm just not convinced the deck needs something like that. Granted, it is important to keep in mind that you're somewhat susceptible to GY hate post-board if you're running 2+ Logic Knots, 2-3+ Snaps, and Gearhulks. (I also love 2 more Cliques in the SB especially since Tron and Valakut decks are picking up steam)
It's exiled, as per the replacement effect of flashback.
Also, to everyone playing Thoughseizes in the board: Might Duress be a substitute? It seems better against burn and still has relevance VS Tron and other control lists, whose most dangerous threats are non-creatures anyway. It's also information plus a card without worrying about your life total VS Bolt decks.
This depends on what you want that sideboard slot to do. I tend to prefer Thoughtseize because it helps much more against Tron. I'm not sure I would even want Duress against Burn because it becomes dead if they ever get low on cards and can't interact with a creature in hand or on board. That said, Duress is better against control and probably equal against combo. So it's more of a meta call.
Fun fact: when wsz is flashbackrd, it is both shuffled into your deck and exiled.
Flashback doesnt stop wsz's full effect (flashback is not exactly a replacement effect) from resolving, but flashback does get the final say on where the card ends up.
Like GSZ, you can usually shortcut by exiling wsz and shuffling, instead of shuffling, presenting, digging the zenith back out, then shuffling and presenting again.
Thoughtseize was more popular in the past because its much stronger vs pumpspell aggro, bogles, etc.
Against tron, taking world breaker and ulamog are both nice to stop cast triggers, and seize compliments negate much better than duress.
If burn is your main concern, duress is fine, but Id rather leave the seizes and play more dedicated burn hate in other slots (cut dispels for leylines, use flex board slots for pulse of the fields or something)
Fun fact: when wsz is flashbackrd, it is both shuffled into your deck and exiled.
Flashback doesnt stop wsz's full effect (flashback is not exactly a replacement effect) from resolving, but flashback does get the final say on where the card ends up.
Like GSZ, you can usually shortcut by exiling wsz and shuffling, instead of shuffling, presenting, digging the zenith back out, then shuffling and presenting again.
Thoughtseize was more popular in the past because its much stronger vs pumpspell aggro, bogles, etc.
Against tron, taking world breaker and ulamog are both nice to stop cast triggers, and seize compliments negate much better than duress.
If burn is your main concern, duress is fine, but Id rather leave the seizes and play more dedicated burn hate in other slots (cut dispels for leylines, use flex board slots for pulse of the fields or something)
I was just wondering about that interaction the other day, and that is weird.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
So I was going to play this deck last night at a different store, we had about 6 people total so it was just a 3 round event. I sat down and the decks everyone was playing were: Jeskai Nahiri, Burn, Bant Eldrazi, Tron, and Lantern. How the hell am I supposed to win any games in that meta? I swapped to my Rock deck and went 2-1, but I don't miss the opportunity to play in a meta where the best matchup for me is either Nahiri or Burn.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
Fun fact: when wsz is flashbackrd, it is both shuffled into your deck and exiled.
Flashback doesnt stop wsz's full effect (flashback is not exactly a replacement effect) from resolving, but flashback does get the final say on where the card ends up.
Like GSZ, you can usually shortcut by exiling wsz and shuffling, instead of shuffling, presenting, digging the zenith back out, then shuffling and presenting again.
Thoughtseize was more popular in the past because its much stronger vs pumpspell aggro, bogles, etc.
Against tron, taking world breaker and ulamog are both nice to stop cast triggers, and seize compliments negate much better than duress.
If burn is your main concern, duress is fine, but Id rather leave the seizes and play more dedicated burn hate in other slots (cut dispels for leylines, use flex board slots for pulse of the fields or something)
Wrong. 702.33a: flashback has two effects--the one that lets you cast it from a graveyard, and the relevant "if the flashback cost was paid, exile this card instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack". It trying to move to shuffle in from the stack mid-resolution does not in any way prevent this replacement effect from overriding the spell.
I've currently not seen a reason to downshift the amount of extractions i'm playing as there's still dredge locally, and the card is reasonable in a blue-heavy metagame. If I were to play this list at an open or a GP, I would cut the extractions and play 2 rest in peace and probably another blessed alliance and another negate, and I would swap the 4th spell snare for a 4th supreme verdict in the mainboard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I've been told by a judge thats how it worked, but its possible he was wrong.
I assume it would not shuffle your deck at all then?
Good to know I guess.
I think its kinda funny people keep asking for your current list when it basically never changes.
yeah, "other judge" was wrong here. If S/He's an L1, it's an opportunity for education for them. If it's an L2, I recommend they review the rules on replacement effects before doing a modern/legacy event again. Up until recently, I've been running a modern IQ or 1k every other week for quite some time... like almost six months. Judges aren't infallible, and little technical details for mechanics that we "use" a lot can actually be very wrong in our minds at times, which is why we get a regular rules review and recert exam.
I am amused that people keep asking for my list as well--because it really doesn't change much. I don't think i've tweaked more than one or two mainboard cards from that configuration in like... six months? To be fair, my sideboard does shift around relatively frequently, by one or two cards. Bigger shifts happen when the format shifts or when large events alter the shape of the metagame a bit more. I play in paper, so my local meta shifts more slowly than the MTGO metagame does.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I am amused that people keep asking for my list as well--because it really doesn't change much. I don't think i've tweaked more than one or two mainboard cards from that configuration in like... six months? To be fair, my sideboard does shift around relatively frequently, by one or two cards. Bigger shifts happen when the format shifts or when large events alter the shape of the metagame a bit more. I play in paper, so my local meta shifts more slowly than the MTGO metagame does.
Personally I'm most curious about what you would do with the manabase if you were going to change the removal base to include more Fatal Pushes.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
I am amused that people keep asking for my list as well--because it really doesn't change much. I don't think i've tweaked more than one or two mainboard cards from that configuration in like... six months? To be fair, my sideboard does shift around relatively frequently, by one or two cards. Bigger shifts happen when the format shifts or when large events alter the shape of the metagame a bit more. I play in paper, so my local meta shifts more slowly than the MTGO metagame does.
Personally I'm most curious about what you would do with the manabase if you were going to change the removal base to include more Fatal Pushes.
depends on how many pushes. 1 or 2? probably cut a plains for a godless shrine. 4? cut a plains and island for fetch and godless shrine. Switching the splash and primary color? just swap the UB and UW lands (other than colonnade) pretty much exactly mirrored--the colonnades still ensure you're supporting the slightly heavier white splash, but it makes you have enough swamps to cast damnation reliably.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I may not agree with it 100%, but your reasoning is pretty sound. I'm excited to see how it plays out for you.
I might test it a little too, but I'm not on XMage at all any more -- school is just more important (my major is Biochemistry). I still play occassionally on paper, but I actually uninstalled XMage entirely to make sure I don't get distracted. T_T
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
WSZ in the board sounds legitimately terrible.
If you want a wincon against midrange/control, elspeth or something would be straight up better.
I feel like you're evaluating resto in base case scenario too much.
What if you didn't have the wall, or chumped with it earlier. Lets say they've got a goyf in play, its a 5/6, and you draw resto angel on your turn 4. You can play it before you untap, but you don't get a card, you can't race, you can't trade. If you find a wrath to answer the goyf, you kill the angel.
If you don't play the angel, hopefully you have other worthwhile plays to make.
That all being said, resto angel has its place in tap out U/W lists, but theres a reason no one plays anything like that in draw-go.
If you want a wincon, play a wincon, not a medium cost, sometimes kinda alright thing.
Honestly though, I think a lot of these lists belong in the UW control forum. Kitchen finks/wall/angel is enough to push your deck into tapout control, and even if you're playing esper, your strategy is simply not the same.
The major focus on the control v control matchup is because playing all that crap makes your matchup worse.
Esper is good because it crushes midrange and control, and its one of the best decks that can do that. UW control w/ finks and friends is played because it fixes esper's weaker aggro matchup, not because its better at what esper does.
While the creatures aren't necessarily bad in those matchups, they're worse than whatever a stock esper list would play in those slots, on the whole.
Avacyn is better not only because shes better vs control/midrange, but because she's a more compact wincon thats actually a lot stronger at winning the game.
I'll grant you that if zoo, burn, etc are your major, major concerns, adding creatures is a perfectly reasonable way to go about it.
You are weakening your control matchup for doing this. It might still be favorable, but with the possible exception of blue based tron, esper draw-go is stronger against those types of decks that the UW finks/resto angel decks, and adding esper charms isn't enough to change that.
I've always regarded Remand as purely a tempo card, for tempo decks trying to win quickly with disruption. After looking at the card more, I can see how it could be relevant in a hard controlling deck, primarily to hit land drops and increase keep-able opening hands, while stalling to get to the point where we chain Cryptics with Snapcaster and then eventually go over the top with Sphinx Rev or WSZ.
The problem I see is to fit Remand in, you'd most likely have to take out something like Logic Knot. Kind of trading power (hard counter) for consistency (draw a card.) I can see Remand being "strictly" worse than Logic Knot against decks like 1-2 drop aggro or Burn, but I can also see Remand being more valuable in a lot of other match ups, while drawing through the deck and keeping it smoother, but then again we aren't trying to close fast but we do want to draw cards. Interesting card the more I think about it.
To the BUG Teachings players: Do you play Mystic Snake? And if you were to play Mystic Snake, what do you cut for it? Some Cryptics since it's a 4 mana counter too?
Now, tempo is also about time, which is why remand is often seen as a tempo card, but its not exclusive to this.
Tempo, and what defines tempo cards, is that they're playing different classifications of cards.
Lets take a classic tempo deck, say, RUG Thresh, (we're using legacy cuz mdoern has no real + good tempo decks).
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14591&d=287502&f=LE
here is a random list for reference.
Its a got a couple of things going on here. You've got lands, obviously, but then you've got some different classification of spells and creatures.
Your creatures here are incredibly efficient beaters, with two exceptions: TNN and Lavamancer. TNN is more resiliant, but despite not being the most efficient, is still plenty capable of ending the game.
Lavamancer shows up as a singleton for different reasons, but its not terribly related to the main gameplan.
Your spells also break down into a few different catagories:
Counterspells: all of your counterspells are (or potentially are) "tempo positive" meaning your opportunity cost for casting them is less or on par with your opponent's opportunity costs.
You have removal, in dismember and bolt. Its also cheap, and like the counterspells, it "trades up" and costs you less than your opponent.
You have consistency tools (brainstorm and ponder) which inherently are NOT tempo cards. Unlike most of the rest of your deck, they trade mana for "nothing" or atleast nothing tangible. They have their place in the deck (turning on lavamancer, goyf, mongoose, consistency, etc) but they are not tempo cards. Despite this, a tempo deck makes room for them due to how they interact with the rest of the deck, and its gameplan.
The last card is stifle. One of the inherent "tempo" cards along side daze and delver. Stifle, as we all know, is basically a 1-mana stone rain.
However, in this deck (and in most decks that run them) it offers a little more than that. Being able to trade a card and a mana for an opponents land (which adds up to 1 mana per untap phase) is often a very powerful play.
In the case of daze and pierce, as well as stifle, they offer some inherent gameplay advantages if your opponent has seen them, or chooses to play around them, due to playing "around" them and playing behind curve.
Now, tempo decks attempt to use cards that provide timing advantages to end the game quickly. Generally, cards that are "tempo positive" are ones that both provide pressure as well as timing advantages, though sometimes just the timing advantage. Cards like spellstutter sprite and reflector mage are prime examples of this.
I won't get more bogged down on tempo as an archtype (there is plenty written on this already), but lets look back on the cantrips for a minute.
RUG Delver seems like such a streamlined deck, with stifles and wastelands to slow your opponent down, coupled with dazes/pierces, and some harder answers, which all help cards like delver and mongoose end the game before your opponent can overcome the roadblocks you've placed down.
And yet brainstorm gives up a little bit of that tempo advantage you've worked for, and still makes the cut.
It provides many benefits to deck, in terms of how it helps out other cards in your deck, and its no surprise that a blue deck is playing it, because what it adds is worth more than what it takes away, despite it going against the game plan.
In our deck, remand is much the same way, though significantly more meta dependent, and possessing less raw power. (A quick note, the original wafo list did not cut logic knots for remands, exactly. They exist in different slots)
Remand is only a soft answer, meaning it doesn't permanently answer its target.
In a control deck that can't kill our opponent before that matters (like grixis delver for example, though they don't always play remand either...) it seems out of place, but it does provide us advantages:
1) Its card velocity. Its not card advantage, but it allows us to keep up the ability to dig through our deck without giving up our ability to interact.
2) Its delays t3 plays into cryptic command. This is the biggest one, IMO. In a deck with 4 cc, we've all been beaten by fulminator mages, by lilianas, and other things, because they can come down under cryptic. A second small point, but it can stop jund from activating lili for a turn if they don't want to discard their card, and have nothing else to discard (if they discard it anyways, thats also something remand has provided)
3) It synergizes well with wrath of god. It digs us towards a wrath, which can often mean life or death, but it also keeps us afloat with one less threat to deal with we try to find that wrath. If the threat was worthwhile enough for them to cast, theres a good chance they need it to sufficiently clock us, and they'll recast it. If we go past t4 without wrathing, they may be more inclined to commit to the board to kill us, which can play right into our hands.
4) Its sometimes a hard counter. Against flashback, or remanding our own spells, we can get more out of it that simply tempo.
Of course, when all of the popular decks are 1drop aggro decks, its fairly weak, but its likely to start being seen again.
I posted a while ago about remand/shadow of doubt in regards to people quesitoning their place, but think about it like this:
However you rank resources in this deck (and magic in general), try thinking about it as you do, but with time being the number one.
Inherently, "time" or more turns directly relates to more cards, more lands in play, and more mana to spend (though you're spending some of that mana to get the time).
well with 4 path, 3 fatal push, and 2 verdicts, it's hard to believe that goyf is going to survive long enough to be a problem. Restoration angel has also been historically great against Jund, as it dodges abrupt decay and can be flashed in EoT to put an evasive clock on a LotV. It's probably a little worse now because it dies to fatal push, but that matchup is still solidly in 100% in our favor.
Sure, if I was playing UW. I could cross post there to see what they think as well, but there's much less activity in their forum and it's closer to esper draw go than traditional UW lists. As far as calling it a tap out list, I disagree. 3 walls and 2 finks doesn't mean I'm playing tapout, as I'm not forced to play them on curve and don't have to play finks on t3 in a control/midrange matchup.
Even if it makes the matchup slightly worse, the matchup is still greatly in our favor because of Sphinx's Rev and Esper charm coupled w/ tons of removal and board wipes. If I drop from 70% winrate to 60% winrate to boost my aggro and burn matchups equally, then I consider that a net gain. I'm still very favored against those matchups, but now have at least 50% chance of beating burn g1 as well, as opposed to basically starting my rounds on g2 with a g1 autoloss.
When Avacyn was first spoiled, I was leading the hype train. Since then I've tried to jam her into basically every White based control list I've built, and she just doesn't play as well in game as she look in paper. She's a faster clock, and the vigilance is nice, but resto is more consistently good in our actual bad matchups. Resto saves finks/manlands that are being targeted w/ removal, and can blink kitchen finks to pull us out of bolt range against burn and grixis control/delver, and goes a long way towards stabilizing in those matchups. Also if you're suggesting to straight swap resto for Avacyn, then she's no more compact, as it's just a 1 for 1 card swap. I'm not playing Resto and jamming walls and finks to justify her; I'm playing walls and finks, and jamming resto because of the extra synergy she provides at that point.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
Lone missionary might be better if I'm strictly trying to beat burn, but finks' persist ability also allows you to extract extra value by trading w/ multiple creatures, or just being generally difficult to remove from play. Where missionary is good against burn, finks is good in a ton of matchups in modern. Consider playing against abzan company and blocking a creature to kill it and gain 2 off the persist, then blinking it w/ resto to reset it.
edit: 26 lands is because this deck really wants to go into the late game and never miss a land drop so you can cast sphinx's revelation for big numbers.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
http://articles.mtgcardmarket.com/examining-control-in-modern/
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
MTG Modern - Competitive: UWx Midrange/Control
Facebook.com/ModernUWxControl
MTG Modern - Competitive: UWx Midrange/Control Community
Facebook.com/Groups/MTGModernUWx
I'm also an Admin for one of the premier Modern communities on Facebook:
Magic the Gathering: Modern Meta Masters
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ModernMetaMasters/
If your WSZ is countered or discarded into graveyard and you flash it back with snappy, does it become exiled or does it shuffle into your library?
Esper Control
Budget / Casual Below
Puresteel Weapon
Sultai Superfriends
Also, to everyone playing Thoughseizes in the board: Might Duress be a substitute? It seems better against burn and still has relevance VS Tron and other control lists, whose most dangerous threats are non-creatures anyway. It's also information plus a card without worrying about your life total VS Bolt decks.
So for me, I'm running 3 Snaps, 2 Gearhulks, 1 Clique, 2 Colonnades, and 1 Tar Pit as my win-cons. They all have value/disruption attached, which is what I am primarily looking for in a deck like Esper. I can't fault anyone for playing WSZ or STW since they do what they do well as a dedicated win-con. I'm just not convinced the deck needs something like that. Granted, it is important to keep in mind that you're somewhat susceptible to GY hate post-board if you're running 2+ Logic Knots, 2-3+ Snaps, and Gearhulks. (I also love 2 more Cliques in the SB especially since Tron and Valakut decks are picking up steam)
This depends on what you want that sideboard slot to do. I tend to prefer Thoughtseize because it helps much more against Tron. I'm not sure I would even want Duress against Burn because it becomes dead if they ever get low on cards and can't interact with a creature in hand or on board. That said, Duress is better against control and probably equal against combo. So it's more of a meta call.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Flashback doesnt stop wsz's full effect (flashback is not exactly a replacement effect) from resolving, but flashback does get the final say on where the card ends up.
Like GSZ, you can usually shortcut by exiling wsz and shuffling, instead of shuffling, presenting, digging the zenith back out, then shuffling and presenting again.
Thoughtseize was more popular in the past because its much stronger vs pumpspell aggro, bogles, etc.
Against tron, taking world breaker and ulamog are both nice to stop cast triggers, and seize compliments negate much better than duress.
If burn is your main concern, duress is fine, but Id rather leave the seizes and play more dedicated burn hate in other slots (cut dispels for leylines, use flex board slots for pulse of the fields or something)
I was just wondering about that interaction the other day, and that is weird.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
Wrong. 702.33a: flashback has two effects--the one that lets you cast it from a graveyard, and the relevant "if the flashback cost was paid, exile this card instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack". It trying to move to shuffle in from the stack mid-resolution does not in any way prevent this replacement effect from overriding the spell.
Also, my current list, for those who are curious:
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 hallowed fountain
2 watery grave
3 island
2 plains
1 swamp
2 ghost quarter
1 drowned catacomb
4 cryptic command
4 spell snare
2 logic knot
3 supreme verdict
2 blessed alliance
4 esper charm
4 think twice
2 sphinx's revelation
2 leyline of sanctity
2 snapcaster mage
1 white sun's zenith
4 surgical extraction
3 thoughtseize
2 baneslayer angel
1 elspeth, sun's champion
1 wrath of god
1 celestial purge
1 negate
2 stony silence
I've currently not seen a reason to downshift the amount of extractions i'm playing as there's still dredge locally, and the card is reasonable in a blue-heavy metagame. If I were to play this list at an open or a GP, I would cut the extractions and play 2 rest in peace and probably another blessed alliance and another negate, and I would swap the 4th spell snare for a 4th supreme verdict in the mainboard.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I assume it would not shuffle your deck at all then?
Good to know I guess.
I think its kinda funny people keep asking for your current list when it basically never changes.
I am amused that people keep asking for my list as well--because it really doesn't change much. I don't think i've tweaked more than one or two mainboard cards from that configuration in like... six months? To be fair, my sideboard does shift around relatively frequently, by one or two cards. Bigger shifts happen when the format shifts or when large events alter the shape of the metagame a bit more. I play in paper, so my local meta shifts more slowly than the MTGO metagame does.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Personally I'm most curious about what you would do with the manabase if you were going to change the removal base to include more Fatal Pushes.
depends on how many pushes. 1 or 2? probably cut a plains for a godless shrine. 4? cut a plains and island for fetch and godless shrine. Switching the splash and primary color? just swap the UB and UW lands (other than colonnade) pretty much exactly mirrored--the colonnades still ensure you're supporting the slightly heavier white splash, but it makes you have enough swamps to cast damnation reliably.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm