I mostly think that voidslime is a cmc 3 counterspell that also incidentally stops PW ultimates--that's my take, at any rate.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Voidslime is, IMO, the best three mana counterspell in the format (with dissolve following some distance behind).
Sure, 3 cmc counterspells have their problems, but not having to splash for the best one is atleast improvement.
Its not taking away any options, at least.
Well, here's to hoping by the time aether revolt rolls around, we have some new toys, or a better playground.
I mostly think that voidslime is a cmc 3 counterspell that also incidentally stops PW ultimates--that's my take, at any rate.
This in addition to thwarting cast triggers and O-Stone is badass vs. Tron. Voidslime may deserve a spot in the sideboard, although I think I would rather have another Thoughtseize effect or a Clique. It sounds fun, but we don't have much room in the MD. I feel like some number of Cryptics would have to be cut to support it, and we'd have to completely wrecking our manabase. Is it even worth it ;)?
Since there aren't many hard to remove permanents at 2 CMC, I'd like to test the original Wafo list with -3 Snare, +1 Shadow of Doubt, +1 Remand, +1 Voidslime, and an obvious fresh manabase with plenty of green mana and 3 Ghost Quarters. Cryptic wouldn't feel as slow with this setup, and we have an increased chance to draw Verdicts from 6 cantrips. With all of the fetches aggro decks like zooicide and burn run SOD could slow them down, but it may just bite us in the ass idk.
I mostly think that voidslime is a cmc 3 counterspell that also incidentally stops PW ultimates--that's my take, at any rate.
This in addition to thwarting cast triggers and O-Stone is badass vs. Tron. Voidslime may deserve a spot in the sideboard, although I think I would rather have another Thoughtseize effect or a Clique. It sounds fun, but we don't have much room in the MD. I feel like some number of Cryptics would have to be cut to support it, and we'd have to completely wrecking our manabase. Is it even worth it ;)?
Since there aren't many hard to remove permanents at 2 CMC, I'd like to test the original Wafo list with -3 Snare, +1 Shadow of Doubt, +1 Remand, +1 Voidslime, and an obvious fresh manabase with plenty of green mana and 3 Ghost Quarters. Cryptic wouldn't feel as slow with this setup, and we have an increased chance to draw Verdicts from 6 cantrips. With all of the fetches aggro decks like zooicide and burn run SOD could slow them down, but it may just bite us in the ass idk.
Not actual Voidslime though. If Voidslime were 1UU, say.
Yo guys! Quick question. How does everyone feel about the increased prevalence of Rest in Peace and Grafdiggers Cage due to dredge? It occured to me that one of the main draws of Zenith that I've been overlooking is the fact that it isn't graveyard reliant. Is there any thought to switching back to a Zenith plan and trimming Snaps to account for the dredge hate? Same with cutting a Logic Knot and playing some Remands.
I'm not the biggest fan of secure, but tbh I almost never flash it back.
When I cast it, its either because its the only thing I have to not lose/I can use it to stabilize + blowout with little chance of backfire, or I cast it EoT for a million and kill in a turn or two.
I do find myself using colonnades more than I did with zenith, but I like being able to cast it early more than I can about rip messing it up.
If theres a bunch of soul sisters in your meta, I'd probably switch back though.
I could get behind trimming snaps, but my issue is that there isn't really anything better.
Remand feels pretty miserable right now, and other cantrips (shadow of doubt, hallowed moonlight, etc) are too narrow to mainboard now as well.
I guess I could see myself playing more blessed alliances, or maxing out on snares/knots, but I don't really think thats better.
As for cutting knots, if there was any half-decent alternative, maybe. Rune snag still gets hit by RiP, mana leak is miserable, especially as a 2~4 of, as is negate.
I think
2 gq
4 colonmade
4 strand
4 delta
1 marsh flats
7 basics
2 hallowed fountain
1 watery grave
1 flex (godless, grave, check, filter)
Is a bit more resilient without being awkward.
Fwiw, blood moon by itself doesnt scare me
I feel heavily favored vs skred for example
The problem is that Levy's Bloodmoon Jund manabase is NOT as mana intensive as ours--
We want to cast Cryptic Command on turn 4. That requires about 22 sources--20, at the absolute bottom.
Casting verdict on 4 also requires 18 white sources--17 as an absolute minimum. You just can't get that level of reliability with the same style of manabase, because if you DON'T draw the fetchland half of your manabase, you're pretty screwed.
Final point: We have esper charm in the mainboard, as a 4-of. We also have celestial purge in the sideboard. You should almost never be losing to blood moon except out of the dedicated SSG/Ritual into blood moon type plays. I ***** about it a lot when I lose to blood moon because it sucks, but the reality is I play through a blood moon far more often and win despite it than I ever mention, because the card really isn't "good" against us.
Is the manabase I've been running for probably six months now, and I've lost directly to blood moon maybe six times (games), two of them being turn one on-the-play blood moons out of a bad skred build. Most of the time, blood moon hurts my opponent more than it does me. The local blue moon player went from an abysmal like 20% winrate to about a 40% winrate in sideboarded games when he switched to boarding out all his blood moons.
As far as secure the wastes vs white sun's zenith, I have been on the zenith plan pretty much the entire time, I think I took two weeks or so off to test STW. STW just isn't actually a good card. It's probably better at doing the things people want it to do (clock opponent, buy time/chump block, be a snapcaster target), but the thing is, that's overloading on one card spot. In my build, WSZ has exactly one job to do: serve as a one-card deckbuilding investment that says "eventually, I will win the game no matter what they do; you can't hate it out, you have to actually fight over this spell itself on the stack if you ever want to win a long game". Against anything except a blue mirror, WSZ means that I can ALWAYS take the more conservative time-buying line, and still have an out to actually win the game. Secure the Wastes does not do that. It does a lot of other things, but it does not fulfill the job of being a completely independent one-slot inevitability engine. And I've played the mirror against a different pilot in my area a few times now, and he has lost every single game one entirely because WSZ represents inevitability and STW requires you to eventually become proactive.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Cutting a fountain for a mystic gate and the catacombs for a sunken ruins is the mana base I've been playing for a while now.
Its pretty much the same amount of colored sources.
I don't usually have any trouble beating blood moons or similar cards.
It happens occasionally, but its about as good as you can hope for.
Anyone playtest with Confirm Suspicions? I feel like it is a crazy good card. Basically staples a significant draw spell on a counter. A little pricey I know, but its like a sphinx's rev but a little safer.
If anyone remembers that wacky mono-u control deck that 5-0ed a mtgo league a while ago, basically a mono-counterspell deck, I tried playing it a bit.
The card is miserable.
Paying 5 mana to counter a single spell means that its only really strong if you're countering something that costs 3 or 4 (or more), and having to spend more mana to see the draw sucks if you're not already comfortable.
Its basically one of those cards that if you goldfish with it, it seems amazing, but if you play it for real, you only ever don't hate yourself playing it when you draw it on curve against a jund player you're already beating.
The reason I run five shocklands is that they're the most flexible lands to draw in your actual hand short of more fetches. The reason I have three fountains and two watery graves is that, against decks fighting my manabase (like some Jund builds, most living end, and some burn/zoo lists even), it's important to be able to access a 2nd hallowed fountain in play after they blow one up; same thing for accessing a 2nd black source if they blow up your first and you draw a fetchland. It's minor, but it's part of the set of small percentage edges that actually make this deck able to win against a lot of the format.
I do recognize that my mana base is probably one of the most punishing to play among regulars in the thread, because it runs a LOT of basics, and then most of your duals are shocklands that are potentially quite painful; sequencing is super important. But, it's worth going through the effort to learn to sequence and play very tightly. You can't afford to give up any small edge in this format, particularly when playing a reactive non-lightning-bolt deck.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Been running Amalek0's mana base for a few months now, I'm mostly convinced its the "correct" one. Also a big fan of WSZ over StW: Inevitably and protects against decking yourself. Also, when do we need a clock before we have control?
WSZ is the best finisher to run in this deck. Its not really up for debate.
And yet, plenty of us still play secure?
Is it because we're stupid/wrong?
Maybe, but its possible we're simply looking at it differently.
If WSZ is the best finisher, then we're playing secure for reasons other than finishing.
My inevitability, and inability to get milled doesn't really matter much when I'm being killed in the first few turns of the game, repeatedly.
WSZ will often not save you from losing, but secure often will.
Having to dump a wincon for that is unfortunate, but being able to keep playing is more important.
Been running Amalek0's mana base for a few months now, I'm mostly convinced its the "correct" one. Also a big fan of WSZ over StW: Inevitably and protects against decking yourself. Also, when do we need a clock before we have control?
I am also on Amalek's manabase. The one change I would like to make is to find room for a Mystic Gate, but I don't want a third colorless source and I like two GQs better.
For what you do to the Lantern control deck, which is objectively the most miserable deck currently in the format and is only piloted by miserable jerks, I will forever love you.
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Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Sure, 3 cmc counterspells have their problems, but not having to splash for the best one is atleast improvement.
Its not taking away any options, at least.
Well, here's to hoping by the time aether revolt rolls around, we have some new toys, or a better playground.
This in addition to thwarting cast triggers and O-Stone is badass vs. Tron. Voidslime may deserve a spot in the sideboard, although I think I would rather have another Thoughtseize effect or a Clique. It sounds fun, but we don't have much room in the MD. I feel like some number of Cryptics would have to be cut to support it, and we'd have to completely wrecking our manabase. Is it even worth it ;)?
Since there aren't many hard to remove permanents at 2 CMC, I'd like to test the original Wafo list with -3 Snare, +1 Shadow of Doubt, +1 Remand, +1 Voidslime, and an obvious fresh manabase with plenty of green mana and 3 Ghost Quarters. Cryptic wouldn't feel as slow with this setup, and we have an increased chance to draw Verdicts from 6 cantrips. With all of the fetches aggro decks like zooicide and burn run SOD could slow them down, but it may just bite us in the ass idk.
Not actual Voidslime though. If Voidslime were 1UU, say.
I knew someone was going to think I was being serious, and it didn't take long
Curse you AND your tomfoolery!
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
When I cast it, its either because its the only thing I have to not lose/I can use it to stabilize + blowout with little chance of backfire, or I cast it EoT for a million and kill in a turn or two.
I do find myself using colonnades more than I did with zenith, but I like being able to cast it early more than I can about rip messing it up.
If theres a bunch of soul sisters in your meta, I'd probably switch back though.
I could get behind trimming snaps, but my issue is that there isn't really anything better.
Remand feels pretty miserable right now, and other cantrips (shadow of doubt, hallowed moonlight, etc) are too narrow to mainboard now as well.
I guess I could see myself playing more blessed alliances, or maxing out on snares/knots, but I don't really think thats better.
As for cutting knots, if there was any half-decent alternative, maybe. Rune snag still gets hit by RiP, mana leak is miserable, especially as a 2~4 of, as is negate.
2 gq
4 colonmade
4 strand
4 delta
1 marsh flats
7 basics
2 hallowed fountain
1 watery grave
1 flex (godless, grave, check, filter)
Is a bit more resilient without being awkward.
Fwiw, blood moon by itself doesnt scare me
I feel heavily favored vs skred for example
Esper Charm doesn't hit cage.
We want to cast Cryptic Command on turn 4. That requires about 22 sources--20, at the absolute bottom.
Casting verdict on 4 also requires 18 white sources--17 as an absolute minimum. You just can't get that level of reliability with the same style of manabase, because if you DON'T draw the fetchland half of your manabase, you're pretty screwed.
Final point: We have esper charm in the mainboard, as a 4-of. We also have celestial purge in the sideboard. You should almost never be losing to blood moon except out of the dedicated SSG/Ritual into blood moon type plays. I ***** about it a lot when I lose to blood moon because it sucks, but the reality is I play through a blood moon far more often and win despite it than I ever mention, because the card really isn't "good" against us.
4 polluted delta
4 celestial colonnade
3 hallowed fountain
2 watery grave
3 island
2 plains
1 swamp
1 drowned catacomb
2 ghost quarter
Is the manabase I've been running for probably six months now, and I've lost directly to blood moon maybe six times (games), two of them being turn one on-the-play blood moons out of a bad skred build. Most of the time, blood moon hurts my opponent more than it does me. The local blue moon player went from an abysmal like 20% winrate to about a 40% winrate in sideboarded games when he switched to boarding out all his blood moons.
As far as secure the wastes vs white sun's zenith, I have been on the zenith plan pretty much the entire time, I think I took two weeks or so off to test STW. STW just isn't actually a good card. It's probably better at doing the things people want it to do (clock opponent, buy time/chump block, be a snapcaster target), but the thing is, that's overloading on one card spot. In my build, WSZ has exactly one job to do: serve as a one-card deckbuilding investment that says "eventually, I will win the game no matter what they do; you can't hate it out, you have to actually fight over this spell itself on the stack if you ever want to win a long game". Against anything except a blue mirror, WSZ means that I can ALWAYS take the more conservative time-buying line, and still have an out to actually win the game. Secure the Wastes does not do that. It does a lot of other things, but it does not fulfill the job of being a completely independent one-slot inevitability engine. And I've played the mirror against a different pilot in my area a few times now, and he has lost every single game one entirely because WSZ represents inevitability and STW requires you to eventually become proactive.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Its pretty much the same amount of colored sources.
I don't usually have any trouble beating blood moons or similar cards.
It happens occasionally, but its about as good as you can hope for.
The card is miserable.
Paying 5 mana to counter a single spell means that its only really strong if you're countering something that costs 3 or 4 (or more), and having to spend more mana to see the draw sucks if you're not already comfortable.
Its basically one of those cards that if you goldfish with it, it seems amazing, but if you play it for real, you only ever don't hate yourself playing it when you draw it on curve against a jund player you're already beating.
I do recognize that my mana base is probably one of the most punishing to play among regulars in the thread, because it runs a LOT of basics, and then most of your duals are shocklands that are potentially quite painful; sequencing is super important. But, it's worth going through the effort to learn to sequence and play very tightly. You can't afford to give up any small edge in this format, particularly when playing a reactive non-lightning-bolt deck.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
And yet, plenty of us still play secure?
Is it because we're stupid/wrong?
Maybe, but its possible we're simply looking at it differently.
If WSZ is the best finisher, then we're playing secure for reasons other than finishing.
My inevitability, and inability to get milled doesn't really matter much when I'm being killed in the first few turns of the game, repeatedly.
WSZ will often not save you from losing, but secure often will.
Having to dump a wincon for that is unfortunate, but being able to keep playing is more important.
I am also on Amalek's manabase. The one change I would like to make is to find room for a Mystic Gate, but I don't want a third colorless source and I like two GQs better.
For what you do to the Lantern control deck, which is objectively the most miserable deck currently in the format and is only piloted by miserable jerks, I will forever love you.