Im dissappointed wafo has decided to switch to jeskai, and that list isn't all that impressive either, at first glance. Nothing to really write home about.
Not impressive? Who else has the balls to play less than 4 Bolts, plays 2 Revs and a Secure in UWR, plays only 3x Electrolyze for a draw-go list (which is a better number than 4x imo), etc. It's not my 100% personal preference (mainly in the manabase and sideboard), but it's the best list for UWR I've seen in several months.
Final point--calling a consensus reached by a group of people through mostly independent testing over the course of basically two years wrong means you're likely missing something. I learned that the first time I had to present the state of my research to my advisory board; for every hundred pages of mathematics research you read in preparation for your thesis, your advisors somehow have another 10 or 20 pages they've read that completely change the light in which your assertions stand, and probably makes them look really stupid. I'm a grad student in math, but I'm sure there are guys in the thread from other disciplines who know what I mean--none of us are as dumb as most of us together, but all of us can't screw up with enough consistency all the time to make all of our data invalid.
Why are there so many shocklands and only one buddy? (glacial fortress/drowned catcomb). Like, I goldfished a bit with the deck and all those shocklands felt weird.
On the serum visions enabling logic knot debate: If you want a card to fill your graveyard, just play thought scour, right? (which, by the way, is an instant, while sv isn't).
Playing less than 4 bolt and 4 snapcaster in UWR feels super wrong. Whatever, he's wafo-tapa, he can build the list as he wants and win.
The numbers actually aren't that weird if you consider the overall purpose of the list. Jeskai is traditionally a contol deck that accrues card advantage until a few burn spells and a Colonnade hit or two finishes them off. However, Wafo's list is much closer to the Esper philosophy of never running out of cards, and killing via repeated Colonnade hits, a Secure, or an Armageddon via Ajani V. I've talked with other forum members in PMs about how you would go about switching Esper to UWR without losing the core philosphy of the deck (which is burying the opponent in card advantage and winning as a formality, rather than the slow-burn plan that Jeskai typically employs), and it always boils down to 2 things: 1) replacing Esper Charm (because Charm is the real deal in the card advatage war), and 2) treating the burn in the deck as more of a multi-purpose Condemn (an early removal spell that isn't 100% dead against against a combo opponent). If you think of Bolt as you would a Condemn with reach, the reason why he's only playing 2 makes a lot of sense -- you don't need a playset of Condemns alongside a set of Paths. Traditional Jeskai empoloys it as part of a cumulative wincon and therefore needs the whole set. But in draw-go, it's not really meant for that purpose; so fewer are necessary. Can you still Rev into a hand with a pile of Bolts/Snaps/Electrolyzes and just kill them? Yes, but you were going to win that game anyways.
Also, 3 Snaps is really not that far away from 4. Regardless, we're not angling that much towards Aggro decks, so the 4th Snapcaster isn't as necessary since it's more likely that you want to rebuy expensive spells, not a Bolt or Path. I think 2-3 is still the right number in this list.
Edit: For those interested, I never really settled on THE Jeskai Draw-Go list. The Bolt=Removal Spell plan works great, and so does only playing a few; but I could never find anything that came close to ECharm.
My major issue with the list is that I just honestly think jeskai isn't all that good as a full-out hard control deck.
You don't have esper charm, and you are encouraged to run burn spells if you're playing red. The deck just isn't the same.
Playing to jeskai's strengths is fine, and with ancestral visions, you have a good amount of card advantage/velocity.
While its been a while since I've played UWR without nahiri, as I see (saw?) it, you have two cards jeskai is capable of utilizing like no other deck really can:
Snapcaster mage, and ancestral visions.
While grixis may give you a run for your money, being able to play snapcaster with bolts, helix, remand, ojutai's command, and cryptic command is incredibly powerful, and gives you a sort of inevitability, as both value and as a win-con.
Ancestral visions also works much better with jeskai than anything else for a number of reasons as well. Jeskai has, bar none, the most early game tools of any control deck in this format. You get bolts/helix/path, you get snare, remand, leak/snag/knot/whatever, and you get serum visions to tie it all together. Between all of that, and the pile of cantripping spells you can play (serum, think twice, remand, electrolyze, shadow of doubt, cryptic, ojutai's, etc), as well as verdicts, you are nearly guaranteed to live until a visons comes off suspend around turn 5-7. On top of that, maximizing your burn spells and you snapcaster focus means that visions has a pretty good shot to either give you enough burn to more or less close out the game on the spot, or give you the tools with snapcaster to beat everything they play for the next couple of turns or so, for potentially another visions to come off suspend, or for you to sneak in the rest of burn you need.
While wafo's list is almost certainly well made for what he's looking for, I've had far less success with jeskai built in that style than I've had with esper or other forms of jeskai.
I never considered this before, but Collective Brutality is a hell of a card against Burn. You can basically trade 3 cards for 3 of theirs, with their entire gameplan revolving around hitting a critical mass of burn spells. Much better than Blessed Alliance, in my opinion, though I'm not sure where else the card can be utilized.
Just dropping in to say I don't find the jeskai switch all that shocking. I had already been talking to Donny about how Jeskai made more sense in this metagame. The only decks charm is really grinding out are gb/x. Been testing wafo's maindeck jeskai list -1 serum visions +1 lightning bolt and loving it.
I'll add that it really is almost our exact same deck, but with more spot removal, and currently, that's relevant. If the meta switches to ridiculous amounts of midrange, and combo starts popping up more, then thats the bat signal for Esper charm. Currently we're in zoo-land and spirits and affinity and dredge land.
I never considered this before, but Collective Brutality is a hell of a card against Burn. You can basically trade 3 cards for 3 of theirs, with their entire gameplan revolving around hitting a critical mass of burn spells. Much better than Blessed Alliance, in my opinion, though I'm not sure where else the card can be utilized.
And with the amount of card draw we have, it seems easy to get ourselves back in the game after trading. Discard TT or Charm (with Snap in hand).
But I think you're right in that it really shines against a single deck. It would be good against Delver but discarding your cards is a cost and they have a lot of cheap permission. Plus it's not like Delver is everywhere right now.
Just dropping in to say I don't find the jeskai switch all that shocking. I had already been talking to Donny about how Jeskai made more sense in this metagame. The only decks charm is really grinding out are gb/x. Been testing wafo's maindeck jeskai list -1 serum visions +1 lightning bolt and loving it.
I'll add that it really is almost our exact same deck, but with more spot removal, and currently, that's relevant. If the meta switches to ridiculous amounts of midrange, and combo starts popping up more, then thats the bat signal for Esper charm. Currently we're in zoo-land and spirits and affinity and dredge land.
Man, I played a hell of a lot of UWR after Ancestral got unbanned. Electrolyze is ass right now. It used to be a blowout, but even the Nahiri decks only run a single copy at this point. Affinity I haven't managed to play against in several months (despite being the second most succesful deck on MODO...), Elves is MIA, Junk Company turned into Bant Eldrazi, Dredge doesn't care, etc.
I guess the question is whether you have something better to slot in the place of Esper Charm. Without changing the findamental gameplan for the deck this just seems of to me, since Esper Charm is better than Think Twice at what Think Twice is trying to do. I've always thought it was the best card in the deck and wish I could run 5. How do all your slower matchups look when you can't Mind Rot them 2 or 3 times? By slower, I mean Tron/Valakut/Nahiri, etc. I don't think just a few Burn spells means you actually have a clock.
But hey, last time Wafo played a deck like this it became the basis for the only successful Control deck in Modern's history. Maybe this will evolve into something, as well.
Crashed really hard. Lost against eldrazi and UB faeries, drew against grixis control. Won against WR heroism from past standard seasons (like, who wouldn't), but that victory isn't really relevant for obvious reasons.
Both eldrazi and grixis seemed winnable, but I played slow and made many mistakes. The only matchup where I felt like my deck was disfavored was UB faeries...
Open question: how many cryptics do you usually side out against control?
electrolyze is definitely the least impressive and most meh card in the deck
when it's good, it's a complete blowout, but 90 percent of the time its just "alright"
maybe those electrolyze can just be AV
Who's good at mana bases, is that Amaelek's thing? Amalek figure out how I can play jeskai with esper charm!.. I don;t care about thoughtseizes or souls or anything, I just want to run jeskai with 4 charm. Thanks in advance
electrolyze is definitely the least impressive and most meh card in the deck
when it's good, it's a complete blowout, but 90 percent of the time its just "alright"
maybe those electrolyze can just be AV
Who's good at mana bases, is that Amaelek's thing? Amalek figure out how I can play jeskai with esper charm!.. I don;t care about thoughtseizes or souls or anything, I just want to run jeskai with 4 charm. Thanks in advance
Honestly, that's what I would probably play if it were possible. Blood Moon and a very dangerous mana base scare me a bit much, though. I do care about Thoughtseizes. They are very good.
But let's think about it. Let's play "build a mana base"
Frank Karsten says to consistently (90%) hit a color Turn 1 (any color of WUBR this is useful, need to note that this is untapped sources), you want 14 sources, for triple on turn 4(Cryptic) it's 22, and for 2 on turn 4, it's 18. For turn 3 and 1 source, it's 12.
So you want to hit Bolt turn 1, ideally Runed Halo turn 2 (because we're greedy - this requires 20 white sources), Esper colors turn 3, and Cryptic turn 4.
So the absolute ideal is 22 blue, 20 white, 12-14 black, and 14 red.
It this possible with 26 lands? Probably?
Is this possible with basic lands? I think we could have 2? (no idea in all honesty)
Is this possible with basics, but without using tri-lands? (hm)
That's already 22 lands. Assuming that Reflecting Pool counts as a white/blue land that is not a turn 1 source, we're looking at
11 red sources, 19 blue, 16 white, 10 black.
So you need 3 red sources, 3 blue sources, 2 to 4 white sources, and 2+ black sources in your last 4 lands. If you're running 3 Colonnades, I could see room for one tri land. Again, this is to reliably turn 1 Bolt (but you are always going to be shocking yourself to do so), t3 Charm, and turn 4 board wipe and Cryptic.
I feel like we can comfortable add one more fetch to that list without hurting ourselves too much. Add a Scalding Tarn. That ups pretty much everything by one, so that's 2 red, 2 blue, 1 to 3 white, and 1+ black we still want.
Say we don't always want Bolt turn 1, wanting it turn 2 reduces the count from 14 to 13.
To round out the mana base, I'd probably add a Nomad Outpost, an Island, and I don't know about the last land. With 25, that puts us on par for turn 2 Bolt, turn 4 Verdict, turn 4 Cryptic, and turn 3 Charm.
Karsten also says cantrips count as .25 source. This is negligible for Bolt in this scenario, but useful for hitting that turn 3 and 4 mana. So, assuming 4 Serum Visions or Think Twice, add 1 to our non-red counts.
I have a thing for Desolate Lighthouse, so I would probably run that in the flex slot, over a Ghost Quarter, since 4x Path and some Bolts seems fine enough for manlands.
I'm very much unhappy about that Sideboard, but I'm not sure. Red opens up more options, although not as many as you'd expect, I think. Engineered Explosives immediately becomes better. Of that much I am sure. Fulminator Mage is another card that comes to mind, but I don't think we're the deck for it. You want Burn hate somewhere.
Can't help but feel you're overthinking it a bit.
The U/W core, splashing black for esper charm/seize/etc could fairly easily be expanded to add red for bolt/crumble/helix.
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Think Twice
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Esper Charm
4 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
2 Logic Knot
2 Secure the Wastes
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Watery Grave
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Desolate Lighthouse
SB: 2 Crumble to Dust
SB: 2 Lightning Helix
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance
SB: 2 Dispel
SB: 2 Negate
This is more or less what I could consider playing.
You could probably afford to shave on the wraths a bit if you wanted, and play kolaghans command, or more counterspells, or what have you in its place since you've got the full set of bolts. You also don't necessarily need the full set of bolts, but the list is pretty clean this way.
I've not really done much in the way of actually playing with the mana base, but it feels alright to me. Helix will far and away be the hardest card in the deck to cast, maybe to the point where its not worth playing? Its hard to say.
I considered playing a wider array of shocks (read: nonblue) and playing filters instead of the buddy lands so cryptic/verdict are still obtainable. Not sure if one way is better than the other.
List is maybe too light on black, but you don't need much, and you dont need to prioritize it, so its probably fine.
You might consider playing a second catacomb/grave instead of the basic swamp though.
So guys, I may have just figured out how to solve the whole "Esper Charm is too good not to play" issue, and the perfect card to replace it is...
Gifts Ungiven. Hear me out, it's not what you think. So, first I'll preface this by saying that I absolutely hate Gifts since it's super clunky when used as a combo -- you have to URites on your turn and tap out 2 times for it. But I realized that if you don't include that combo in the deck, you're left with an effective double Mystical Teachings -- Get Snappy, Noxious Revival, and any 2 cards to tutor up two cards from the deck at instant speed. I always wanted to make Teachings work, but it's just so slow and the flashback is barely even there due to its mana cost. Enter Gifts -- it's a draw-2 instant speed spell like ECharm, but for one mana more you get dictate exactly what you draw (and it doesn't require more than one color, as you can cast Noxious without Green). So, when porting the Esper philosophy to any non-black color, we could just replace 4x Charms (or 3x) with Gifts, and play a Noxious Revival or two in the main to make up for it.
Again, I'm not talking about falling into the trap of Gifts'ing up a fatty and URites, as that's not really a great draw-go plan. I'm talking about pure value-Gifts. Also, this is entirely theorycrafting, and in no way tested.
You'll notice that the only things that are diversified here for Gifts purposes are removal spells -- firstly, most of that "diversification" of the spot removal isn't actually because of Gifts. I already am a fan of mainboard Condemn, and I have been know in the past to play Runed Halo main. The only actual change there is that my 2nd Condemn became a Blessed Aliliance, which was purely for Gifts.
The big change is in the Wrath effects, because I want to be able to tutor up 2 wraths without having to get both Snap and Revival. Plus, it gives me an excuse to play a Hallowed Burial in the 75 for Dredge/persist/dies-triggers. I suppose the proper Wrath could just be a 3rd Verdict, but it's a moot point seeing as the Wrath is actully a useful addition to the deck in multiple dimensions.
Collective Britality is a card I would like to test in esper. The card seems unintuitive but it does cover the major weakness of reactive decks in modern and that is the speed at which it interacts with various linesr decks. Cb pretty much says pay 1B choose on of these the rest of your hand becomes this card but costs 0. This card can go a long way in improving the burn matchup and other mana efficient decks. Cb is also pretty good agsinst some anmoying combo decks like ad nauseam if hou see it early enough.
Seeing all this "Esper Control splahing bolt" lists:
Is it really worth adding another color and hurting our good working manabase just for bolt? I mean i know aggro is everywhere right now but wouldn't it make more sense to just stock up the deck's flexslots with more condemn/blessed alliance if we are afraid of creature based decks? Bolt does nothing against Death's Shadow most of the time and matchups where we would want it in, condemn is super strong.
So to be honest, I am a bit sceptical.
One of Espers biggest strenghts is that we can transform our deck however we want to adept to a given meta and i do not think bolt and splashing red is the real answer.
Also: Collective Brutality as a 1 or 2 of main is something I am thimking about all the time since it has relevant modes for all different match ups except maybe tron and is super flexible. Discarding Think twice to kill something and duress our opponent seems very strong. Would also make lingering souls in our board more playable. Also with the 3 Snapcaster versions it seems quite good.
I will be posting my updated list soon which is tuned for a wide metagame focused on aggro.
Correct me please if I am wrong but like said, I do not think splashing red is the way to go.
Also: all brews are welcome, as always, I do not want to dismiss anyone's ideas here. These are just my general thoughts reading the last few pages.
Honestly 4 colors should be a definite no in the current meta with all the reach the aggro decks have. If a durdly control deck with bolts is needed you should just run grixis or jeskai with Ancestral Vision.
As the guy who asked "hey wouldn't it be cool if we played esper charm and bolt lolblah blah blah" I can pretty much confirm what everyone else is thinking. It's bad and don't do it. Not even remotely worth it.
Bottom line: if you read the meta game as "majority of it is decks where I want to durdle and mind rotting with charm is instrumental to beating some of the most popular decks, and thoughtseize is pretty ganebreaking" (ie: combo meta, jund/junk increases by 5-7 percent or more, nahiri gets REALLY huge, etc), play esper
If your read on the metagame is "man there sure is a lot of zoo and elves and death's shadow and every 3rd of 4th matchup is infect" then play jeskai.
You can't have EVERYthing, haha. Especially as a control deck, we aren't just gonna be able to blindly pick a deck and have it be good against 90 percent of the metagame, and never bother reading the metagame.
Today I'm playing jeskai, and I found that with bolts and stuff in the deck, usually I just wanted to use esper charm to draw two, so I'm back on a straight U/w/r mana base with 2-3 Comparative Analysis just to get a quick instant speed divination, which in THIS configuration is what I was using esper charm for primarily anyway. Definitely not worth it to screw up your whole mana base to be able to mind rot sometimes. Gotta pick what you expect to be more relevant (mind rot or lightning bolt) and roll with it, and whatever you chose, try to hedge against everything else in the board (clique is extra good in jeskai bc it shores up the combo and controlly matchups, but also bc it's a 3 power flyer in a deck full of lightning bolts)
Edit: to be fair, as "average" as Electrolyze is, it IS super good against lingering souls which is definitely making a comeback right now, and it IS pretty damn efficient against snapcaster mages, etc. I think I might just stick with wafo's jeskai, -1 serum +1 Bolt, and see where that gets me. So far it actually feels pretty tight.
As far as the board, I do want an extra wrath and some runed halos, bant eldrazi is a real thing.
As the guy who asked "hey wouldn't it be cool if we played esper charm and bolt lolblah blah blah" I can pretty much confirm what everyone else is thinking. It's bad and don't do it. Not even remotely worth it.
Bottom line: if you read the meta game as "majority of it is decks where I want to durdle and mind rotting with charm is instrumental to beating some of the most popular decks, and thoughtseize is pretty ganebreaking" (ie: combo meta, jund/junk increases by 5-7 percent or more, nahiri gets REALLY huge, etc), play esper
If your read on the metagame is "man there sure is a lot of zoo and elves and death's shadow and every 3rd of 4th matchup is infect" then play jeskai.
You can't have EVERYthing, haha. Especially as a control deck, we aren't just gonna be able to blindly pick a deck and have it be good against 90 percent of the metagame, and never bother reading the metagame.
Today I'm playing jeskai, and I found that with bolts and stuff in the deck, usually I just wanted to use esper charm to draw two, so I'm back on a straight U/w/r mana base with 2-3 Comparative Analysis just to get a quick instant speed divination, which in THIS configuration is what I was using esper charm for primarily anyway. Definitely not worth it to screw up your whole mana base to be able to mind rot sometimes. Gotta pick what you expect to be more relevant (mind rot or lightning bolt) and roll with it, and whatever you chose, try to hedge against everything else in the board (clique is extra good in jeskai bc it shores up the combo and controlly matchups, but also bc it's a 3 power flyer in a deck full of lightning bolts)
Edit: to be fair, as "average" as Electrolyze is, it IS super good against lingering souls which is definitely making a comeback right now, and it IS pretty damn efficient against snapcaster mages, etc. I think I might just stick with wafo's jeskai, -1 serum +1 Bolt, and see where that gets me. So far it actually feels pretty tight.
As far as the board, I do want an extra wrath and some runed halos, bant eldrazi is a real thing.
I think you guys are underrating electrolyze in the current meta it is esper charm on crack vs green company decks and infect. Card advantage that trades with your opponents mana investments and board state is better than effects that only get you ahead in cardboard but does effect the battlefirld especially in a creature format like modern. Electrolyze should be a 2 of in any izzet deck with snaps.
Honestly 4 colors should be a definite no in the current meta with all the reach the aggro decks have. If a durdly control deck with bolts is needed you should just run grixis or jeskai with Ancestral Vision.
This is exactly what I did. My favorite colours in MTG have always been UBR, but my favorite archetype has always been Draw Go (massive Randy Buehler fan.) My only option to play draw go in Modern was to play UBW as it's the most viable colours to be in for draw go IMO. I found I had pretty even match ups against most of the meta but due to the pure reactiveness of the deck, I didn't like how I was a dog to Tron, Burn, Combo. I didn't like UWR as much because it's more of a tempo/combo deck with Nahiri, the Harbinger and the versions without her I just felt lacking raw power and the lack of hand disruption B provides made it harder to beat Combo decks. In saying that I have played a lot of classic 26 land UBW & UWR Draw Go decks and enjoyed the decision making and thought processes it offers. There is nothing like a good Draw Go deck for the brain.
So with the printing of Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and the unbanning of Ancestral Vision, I thought I'd start brewing a Draw Go variant of Grixis as the low land delver/tempo lists were just not my cup of tea. After months of testing, I've come to the above 75 and am proud to stick with it. It's pretty much as 50/50 against a diverse meta as possible, leaving it up to player skill, not including luck, to decide match ups. It's given me a big Draw Go game with Ancestral Vision being the backbone of the deck combined with a plethora of counters and removal spells. Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet has allowed me to steal some game 1's against Burn and Dredge, while Snapcaster MageLightning BoltVendilion CliqueKolaghan's Command has won me quite a few game 1's against Tron and Combo decks, with the added hand disruption in the sideboard improving my game 2's. Lightning Bolt just does it all. 8 damage Bolt-Snap-Bolt on their end step is a lot of damage and just can win out of nowhere. I'm proud to have recently 2-1'd Bant Eldrazi and 2-0'd Jund which gives me confidence that this type of deck has some legs. It's also fairly unforgiving, just like most Draw Go decks, but I feel it's got a higher power level in general which has given me some wins where I've made silly mistakes.
Thought I'd post my 2c here since we're on the discussion about Lightning Bolt and also how I've attempted to adapt to today's meta as a Draw Go player.
I am actually on blue moon with 3 anger of the gods and 4 ancestral vision as my go to blue deck atm. Honestly I think grixis is the place to be gor blue currently as you have done yourself. With such an aggto format bolt plus kalitas is probably where you want to be. A bit more tapout than the deck for this thread but this is not legacy where the answers are on par with the mana costs of threats and where combo pretty much pushes non delver aggro out of the format. The best way go control a bunch of little creatures is by having a bigger creature plus removal. Kalitas also semi hates on dredge and company. Gixis also got a new toy in collectively brutality to make it even better against combo and burn.
hi all,what do you think about thing in the ice in this deck? can be second blane like ascendancy?
thank you
Essentially, we don't want it. Turns on our opponent's removal (easy bolt target), and we don't play enough cheap stuff to power it online early (great for Jeskai, where you can bolt > snap > bolt).
I should include, something like Baneslayer is great, because by the time you'll be dropping it, you've probably mind rotted your opponent a few times. The first thing they'll discard against our deck should be removal. Thing in the Ice has to drop early to really be relevant, even though we keep casting new cards.
Not impressive?
I saved this list for testing:
4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Reflecting Pool
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Steam Vents
1x Sacred Foundry
3x Island
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Secure the Wastes
Removal (12)
2x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
3x Electrolyze
3x Supreme Verdict
Counters (8)
3x Logic Knot
1x Negate
4x Cryptic Command
Draw/Selection (12)
4x Serum Visions
3x Think Twice
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Dispel
2x Celestial Purge
1x Lightning Helix
2x Negate
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Wear // Tear
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Physics student here, can confirm.
@Amalek, one quick question about your list (the comment is mine but the list is copied from one of your comments in this thread) (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/571123-modern-esper-draw-go?comment=8546)
Why are there so many shocklands and only one buddy? (glacial fortress/drowned catcomb). Like, I goldfished a bit with the deck and all those shocklands felt weird.
On the serum visions enabling logic knot debate: If you want a card to fill your graveyard, just play thought scour, right? (which, by the way, is an instant, while sv isn't).
Playing less than 4 bolt and 4 snapcaster in UWR feels super wrong. Whatever, he's wafo-tapa, he can build the list as he wants and win.
L: Maverick
The numbers actually aren't that weird if you consider the overall purpose of the list. Jeskai is traditionally a contol deck that accrues card advantage until a few burn spells and a Colonnade hit or two finishes them off. However, Wafo's list is much closer to the Esper philosophy of never running out of cards, and killing via repeated Colonnade hits, a Secure, or an Armageddon via Ajani V. I've talked with other forum members in PMs about how you would go about switching Esper to UWR without losing the core philosphy of the deck (which is burying the opponent in card advantage and winning as a formality, rather than the slow-burn plan that Jeskai typically employs), and it always boils down to 2 things: 1) replacing Esper Charm (because Charm is the real deal in the card advatage war), and 2) treating the burn in the deck as more of a multi-purpose Condemn (an early removal spell that isn't 100% dead against against a combo opponent). If you think of Bolt as you would a Condemn with reach, the reason why he's only playing 2 makes a lot of sense -- you don't need a playset of Condemns alongside a set of Paths. Traditional Jeskai empoloys it as part of a cumulative wincon and therefore needs the whole set. But in draw-go, it's not really meant for that purpose; so fewer are necessary. Can you still Rev into a hand with a pile of Bolts/Snaps/Electrolyzes and just kill them? Yes, but you were going to win that game anyways.
Also, 3 Snaps is really not that far away from 4. Regardless, we're not angling that much towards Aggro decks, so the 4th Snapcaster isn't as necessary since it's more likely that you want to rebuy expensive spells, not a Bolt or Path. I think 2-3 is still the right number in this list.
Edit: For those interested, I never really settled on THE Jeskai Draw-Go list. The Bolt=Removal Spell plan works great, and so does only playing a few; but I could never find anything that came close to ECharm.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
You don't have esper charm, and you are encouraged to run burn spells if you're playing red. The deck just isn't the same.
Playing to jeskai's strengths is fine, and with ancestral visions, you have a good amount of card advantage/velocity.
While its been a while since I've played UWR without nahiri, as I see (saw?) it, you have two cards jeskai is capable of utilizing like no other deck really can:
Snapcaster mage, and ancestral visions.
While grixis may give you a run for your money, being able to play snapcaster with bolts, helix, remand, ojutai's command, and cryptic command is incredibly powerful, and gives you a sort of inevitability, as both value and as a win-con.
Ancestral visions also works much better with jeskai than anything else for a number of reasons as well. Jeskai has, bar none, the most early game tools of any control deck in this format. You get bolts/helix/path, you get snare, remand, leak/snag/knot/whatever, and you get serum visions to tie it all together. Between all of that, and the pile of cantripping spells you can play (serum, think twice, remand, electrolyze, shadow of doubt, cryptic, ojutai's, etc), as well as verdicts, you are nearly guaranteed to live until a visons comes off suspend around turn 5-7. On top of that, maximizing your burn spells and you snapcaster focus means that visions has a pretty good shot to either give you enough burn to more or less close out the game on the spot, or give you the tools with snapcaster to beat everything they play for the next couple of turns or so, for potentially another visions to come off suspend, or for you to sneak in the rest of burn you need.
While wafo's list is almost certainly well made for what he's looking for, I've had far less success with jeskai built in that style than I've had with esper or other forms of jeskai.
I'll add that it really is almost our exact same deck, but with more spot removal, and currently, that's relevant. If the meta switches to ridiculous amounts of midrange, and combo starts popping up more, then thats the bat signal for Esper charm. Currently we're in zoo-land and spirits and affinity and dredge land.
PS Izzet Staticaster vs. bloodghast is lol
And with the amount of card draw we have, it seems easy to get ourselves back in the game after trading. Discard TT or Charm (with Snap in hand).
But I think you're right in that it really shines against a single deck. It would be good against Delver but discarding your cards is a cost and they have a lot of cheap permission. Plus it's not like Delver is everywhere right now.
Man, I played a hell of a lot of UWR after Ancestral got unbanned. Electrolyze is ass right now. It used to be a blowout, but even the Nahiri decks only run a single copy at this point. Affinity I haven't managed to play against in several months (despite being the second most succesful deck on MODO...), Elves is MIA, Junk Company turned into Bant Eldrazi, Dredge doesn't care, etc.
I guess the question is whether you have something better to slot in the place of Esper Charm. Without changing the findamental gameplan for the deck this just seems of to me, since Esper Charm is better than Think Twice at what Think Twice is trying to do. I've always thought it was the best card in the deck and wish I could run 5. How do all your slower matchups look when you can't Mind Rot them 2 or 3 times? By slower, I mean Tron/Valakut/Nahiri, etc. I don't think just a few Burn spells means you actually have a clock.
But hey, last time Wafo played a deck like this it became the basis for the only successful Control deck in Modern's history. Maybe this will evolve into something, as well.
Modern Premier #4940435 on 01/28/2013Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
3 Snapcaster Mage
SPELLS [31]
2 Azorius Charm
4 Cryptic Command
4 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
2 Shadow of Doubt
3 Spell Snare
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Think Twice
4 Arid Mesa
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Mystic Gate
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Spellskite
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Celestial Purge
2 Counterflux
1 Disenchant
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Detention Sphere
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon Jura
BTW, just came back from FNM!
Crashed really hard. Lost against eldrazi and UB faeries, drew against grixis control. Won against WR heroism from past standard seasons (like, who wouldn't), but that victory isn't really relevant for obvious reasons.
Both eldrazi and grixis seemed winnable, but I played slow and made many mistakes. The only matchup where I felt like my deck was disfavored was UB faeries...
Open question: how many cryptics do you usually side out against control?
L: Maverick
when it's good, it's a complete blowout, but 90 percent of the time its just "alright"
maybe those electrolyze can just be AV
Who's good at mana bases, is that Amaelek's thing? Amalek figure out how I can play jeskai with esper charm!.. I don;t care about thoughtseizes or souls or anything, I just want to run jeskai with 4 charm. Thanks in advance
Honestly, that's what I would probably play if it were possible. Blood Moon and a very dangerous mana base scare me a bit much, though. I do care about Thoughtseizes. They are very good.
But let's think about it. Let's play "build a mana base"
Frank Karsten says to consistently (90%) hit a color Turn 1 (any color of WUBR this is useful, need to note that this is untapped sources), you want 14 sources, for triple on turn 4(Cryptic) it's 22, and for 2 on turn 4, it's 18. For turn 3 and 1 source, it's 12.
So you want to hit Bolt turn 1, ideally Runed Halo turn 2 (because we're greedy - this requires 20 white sources), Esper colors turn 3, and Cryptic turn 4.
So the absolute ideal is 22 blue, 20 white, 12-14 black, and 14 red.
It this possible with 26 lands? Probably?
Is this possible with basic lands? I think we could have 2? (no idea in all honesty)
Is this possible with basics, but without using tri-lands? (hm)
My starting point would probably be...
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Mystic Gate
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Celestial Colonnade
That's already 22 lands. Assuming that Reflecting Pool counts as a white/blue land that is not a turn 1 source, we're looking at
11 red sources, 19 blue, 16 white, 10 black.
So you need 3 red sources, 3 blue sources, 2 to 4 white sources, and 2+ black sources in your last 4 lands. If you're running 3 Colonnades, I could see room for one tri land. Again, this is to reliably turn 1 Bolt (but you are always going to be shocking yourself to do so), t3 Charm, and turn 4 board wipe and Cryptic.
I feel like we can comfortable add one more fetch to that list without hurting ourselves too much. Add a Scalding Tarn. That ups pretty much everything by one, so that's 2 red, 2 blue, 1 to 3 white, and 1+ black we still want.
Say we don't always want Bolt turn 1, wanting it turn 2 reduces the count from 14 to 13.
To round out the mana base, I'd probably add a Nomad Outpost, an Island, and I don't know about the last land. With 25, that puts us on par for turn 2 Bolt, turn 4 Verdict, turn 4 Cryptic, and turn 3 Charm.
Karsten also says cantrips count as .25 source. This is negligible for Bolt in this scenario, but useful for hitting that turn 3 and 4 mana. So, assuming 4 Serum Visions or Think Twice, add 1 to our non-red counts.
I have a thing for Desolate Lighthouse, so I would probably run that in the flex slot, over a Ghost Quarter, since 4x Path and some Bolts seems fine enough for manlands.
So, in total, first draft:
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Mystic Gate
1 Nomad Outpost
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Desolate Lighthouse
And I'd start my list with... & note (triple white would be incredibly hard in 4 color, but to turn 6 a WSZ, you want 20 white sources)
3x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
2x Supreme Verdict
4x Esper Charm
4x Think Twice
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Logic Knot
2x Spell Snare
1x Negate
1x Kologhan's Command
And a Sideboard of like... (which folds to Burn)
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Thoughtseize
1x Duress
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Wrath of God
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Lightning Bolt
2x Dispel
I'm very much unhappy about that Sideboard, but I'm not sure. Red opens up more options, although not as many as you'd expect, I think. Engineered Explosives immediately becomes better. Of that much I am sure. Fulminator Mage is another card that comes to mind, but I don't think we're the deck for it. You want Burn hate somewhere.
Entirely spitballing here.
The classic Karsten article for reference: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
Modern - Esper Draw-Go (Best finish - 12-3, 45th at GP Charlotte 2015), Jeskai Control, UR Breach Moon
The U/W core, splashing black for esper charm/seize/etc could fairly easily be expanded to add red for bolt/crumble/helix.
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Think Twice
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Esper Charm
4 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
2 Logic Knot
2 Secure the Wastes
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Watery Grave
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Desolate Lighthouse
SB: 2 Crumble to Dust
SB: 2 Lightning Helix
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Blessed Alliance
SB: 2 Dispel
SB: 2 Negate
This is more or less what I could consider playing.
You could probably afford to shave on the wraths a bit if you wanted, and play kolaghans command, or more counterspells, or what have you in its place since you've got the full set of bolts. You also don't necessarily need the full set of bolts, but the list is pretty clean this way.
I've not really done much in the way of actually playing with the mana base, but it feels alright to me. Helix will far and away be the hardest card in the deck to cast, maybe to the point where its not worth playing? Its hard to say.
I considered playing a wider array of shocks (read: nonblue) and playing filters instead of the buddy lands so cryptic/verdict are still obtainable. Not sure if one way is better than the other.
List is maybe too light on black, but you don't need much, and you dont need to prioritize it, so its probably fine.
You might consider playing a second catacomb/grave instead of the basic swamp though.
Gifts Ungiven. Hear me out, it's not what you think. So, first I'll preface this by saying that I absolutely hate Gifts since it's super clunky when used as a combo -- you have to URites on your turn and tap out 2 times for it. But I realized that if you don't include that combo in the deck, you're left with an effective double Mystical Teachings -- Get Snappy, Noxious Revival, and any 2 cards to tutor up two cards from the deck at instant speed. I always wanted to make Teachings work, but it's just so slow and the flashback is barely even there due to its mana cost. Enter Gifts -- it's a draw-2 instant speed spell like ECharm, but for one mana more you get dictate exactly what you draw (and it doesn't require more than one color, as you can cast Noxious without Green). So, when porting the Esper philosophy to any non-black color, we could just replace 4x Charms (or 3x) with Gifts, and play a Noxious Revival or two in the main to make up for it.
Again, I'm not talking about falling into the trap of Gifts'ing up a fatty and URites, as that's not really a great draw-go plan. I'm talking about pure value-Gifts. Also, this is entirely theorycrafting, and in no way tested.
Edit:
4x Celestial Colonnade
1x Mystic Gate
2x Glacial Fortress
3x Ghost Quarter
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Prairie Stream
3x Island
2x Plains
Wincons (2)
2x Secure the Wastes
Removal (11)
1x Condemn
4x Path to Exile
1x Runed Halo
1x Blessed Alliance
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Wrath of God
1x Hallowed Burial
2x Spell Snare
2x Logic Knot
1x Negate
3x Cryptic Command
Draw (9)
4x Think Twice
3x Gifts Ungiven
2x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Snapcaster Mage
Miscellaneous (2)
2x Noxious Revival
1x Condemn
2x Dispel
2x Celestial Purge
1x Negate
1x Runed Halo
2x Stony Silence
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
You'll notice that the only things that are diversified here for Gifts purposes are removal spells -- firstly, most of that "diversification" of the spot removal isn't actually because of Gifts. I already am a fan of mainboard Condemn, and I have been know in the past to play Runed Halo main. The only actual change there is that my 2nd Condemn became a Blessed Aliliance, which was purely for Gifts.
The big change is in the Wrath effects, because I want to be able to tutor up 2 wraths without having to get both Snap and Revival. Plus, it gives me an excuse to play a Hallowed Burial in the 75 for Dredge/persist/dies-triggers. I suppose the proper Wrath could just be a 3rd Verdict, but it's a moot point seeing as the Wrath is actully a useful addition to the deck in multiple dimensions.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Honestly 4 colors should be a definite no in the current meta with all the reach the aggro decks have. If a durdly control deck with bolts is needed you should just run grixis or jeskai with Ancestral Vision.
Bottom line: if you read the meta game as "majority of it is decks where I want to durdle and mind rotting with charm is instrumental to beating some of the most popular decks, and thoughtseize is pretty ganebreaking" (ie: combo meta, jund/junk increases by 5-7 percent or more, nahiri gets REALLY huge, etc), play esper
If your read on the metagame is "man there sure is a lot of zoo and elves and death's shadow and every 3rd of 4th matchup is infect" then play jeskai.
You can't have EVERYthing, haha. Especially as a control deck, we aren't just gonna be able to blindly pick a deck and have it be good against 90 percent of the metagame, and never bother reading the metagame.
Today I'm playing jeskai, and I found that with bolts and stuff in the deck, usually I just wanted to use esper charm to draw two, so I'm back on a straight U/w/r mana base with 2-3 Comparative Analysis just to get a quick instant speed divination, which in THIS configuration is what I was using esper charm for primarily anyway. Definitely not worth it to screw up your whole mana base to be able to mind rot sometimes. Gotta pick what you expect to be more relevant (mind rot or lightning bolt) and roll with it, and whatever you chose, try to hedge against everything else in the board (clique is extra good in jeskai bc it shores up the combo and controlly matchups, but also bc it's a 3 power flyer in a deck full of lightning bolts)
and again, right now izzet staticaster is bae
Edit: to be fair, as "average" as Electrolyze is, it IS super good against lingering souls which is definitely making a comeback right now, and it IS pretty damn efficient against snapcaster mages, etc. I think I might just stick with wafo's jeskai, -1 serum +1 Bolt, and see where that gets me. So far it actually feels pretty tight.
As far as the board, I do want an extra wrath and some runed halos, bant eldrazi is a real thing.
I think you guys are underrating electrolyze in the current meta it is esper charm on crack vs green company decks and infect. Card advantage that trades with your opponents mana investments and board state is better than effects that only get you ahead in cardboard but does effect the battlefirld especially in a creature format like modern. Electrolyze should be a 2 of in any izzet deck with snaps.
I am actually on blue moon with 3 anger of the gods and 4 ancestral vision as my go to blue deck atm. Honestly I think grixis is the place to be gor blue currently as you have done yourself. With such an aggto format bolt plus kalitas is probably where you want to be. A bit more tapout than the deck for this thread but this is not legacy where the answers are on par with the mana costs of threats and where combo pretty much pushes non delver aggro out of the format. The best way go control a bunch of little creatures is by having a bigger creature plus removal. Kalitas also semi hates on dredge and company. Gixis also got a new toy in collectively brutality to make it even better against combo and burn.
Essentially, we don't want it. Turns on our opponent's removal (easy bolt target), and we don't play enough cheap stuff to power it online early (great for Jeskai, where you can bolt > snap > bolt).
I should include, something like Baneslayer is great, because by the time you'll be dropping it, you've probably mind rotted your opponent a few times. The first thing they'll discard against our deck should be removal. Thing in the Ice has to drop early to really be relevant, even though we keep casting new cards.