I think its kinda hard to fit anticipate in the deck without taking out important stuff. Our flex spots are limited. The other thing is: contrary to most decks (wich are vulnerable to hand disruption) the decision to go quantity over quality makes us good vs jund, abzan, 8racks etc. I dont think we can afford to lose our advantage vs jund wich represents 10% of the meta. You can try it and let us know, and tell us what you cut for it.
For some reason to me, it is starting to feel like we are trying to build a commander deck.
Singleton this, singleton that, we can cut down from 4 of a primary spell to 3 to fit in another singleton something. At some point in time, I feel like if we keep trimming the core, we won't be able to consistently find what we need, which is kind of the point of this deck isn't it?
Put it this way, you would not want to anticipate/peer for a draw spell, we have enough of those already, probably not a charm, or a cryptic (too expensive most likely to cast outright at that time). you would mainly want to try to anticipate/peer for a wrath effect, a hard counter, or a spot removal. So if anything i could see cutting 1 think twice and 1 cryptic. But that's just me.
This is a draw go thread. It has been agreed that you can talk about any color deck as long as you keep it draw go. We had UE, UB, UWR etc. But we are not into tap out style. Also to the new comers, I suggest you read some of the 300 pages there is in the thread. It's kind of annoying to me (and maybe others) to keep having to answer to the same questions. For exemple, we have 20 pages about AV and why we don't use it. With excellent players that have tested it and combined with numerous other cards. Some people come here and talk about thing in the ice and grave titan... I think that there is enough work on this thread to understand by yourself why it is not appropriated here. I am always the one complaining but to be true, I dont know why we should answer to the same %#+**^\ when you don't even show have enough respect to all the contributors and don't read was has previously been said. So this is not a personnal attack, this is a major wake up call to everyone arriving here. YOU ARE WELCOMED but please do your damn homeworks!
It is perfectly reasonnable to think that someone who wants to learn WILL actually take the time to learn and read. Our deck is hard and tight. You need to learn the fondamentals to pilot it correctly. If you are not willing to go thru the whole processus we have been thru, then whats the point? When I first discovered this thread, I had to read 100 pages to catch up. What is 300 pages of posts? 2 hours at most? As for repeating the same things over and over again, Im glad for you that it doesnt annoy you, but to be honnest, it's just polluting the threads with things we already know. But hey, your opinion is as good as mine
I disagree! Reading what has been written allows you to understand the thought process. This is simple academics! People that will invest time in the deck ( reading, playing, testing) are the ones that will contribute. People that come here and say: Hey you should play serum vision, are the ones we never see again but force us to post 2 pages on why we alrdy decided serum sucks. Some people like to show that "they know" and like to teach. But this thread is mainly not about teaching but researching. Do you think undergrads go in labs? No they first do their classes and those 300 pages are your degree, at minimal.
I think its kinda hard to fit anticipate in the deck without taking out important stuff. Our flex spots are limited. The other thing is: contrary to most decks (wich are vulnerable to hand disruption) the decision to go quantity over quality makes us good vs jund, abzan, 8racks etc. I dont think we can afford to lose our advantage vs jund wich represents 10% of the meta. You can try it and let us know, and tell us what you cut for it.
GoodPastor, as you are already aware, there has already been a discussion on the card Anticipate. I'm not going to tell you where it is, because quite frankly, by your logic, it's very insulting to all the forum members that you are necroing an old discussion because you're to lazy "sift through the 300 pagaes" to find out for yourself. According to you, GoodPastor this is "perfectly reasonable and allows you to understand the thought process."
GoodPastor sir, because of you, I am not going to participate in this thread any longer, I believe in separating myself from as much negativity as possible in all aspects of life, and it's disappointing there are still people like you on the forums who find enjoyment in belittling others, especially noobs such as my self.
I disagree! Reading what has been written allows you to understand the thought process. This is simple academics! People that will invest time in the deck ( reading, playing, testing) are the ones that will contribute. People that come here and say: Hey you should play serum vision, are the ones we never see again but force us to post 2 pages on why we alrdy decided serum sucks. Some people like to show that "they know" and like to teach. But this thread is mainly not about teaching but researching. Do you think undergrads go in labs? No they first do their classes and those 300 pages are your degree, at minimal.
Actually, undergrads do have Bio and Chem labs, but that's beside the point. Lol
Regardless, I suppose it doesn't really matter. I just don't want people to come here with interest in the deck and get chased away by people saying that they need to read a textbook of an Esper forum before they're welcome to post questions. I want more people to play the deck.
Annihilator0798 - Thank you for you reasonable discussion on the matter and I wish you the very best and utmost of luck in your magic playing days. It's good to see just people like yourself still around and you have a real talent in making new comers feel welcome and standing up for lesser people. Thanks
I think Pastor wasn't trying to actually insult anyone. I think they just didn't explain what they meant in a very good way. I can't speak for them for certain, but it seemed to me that they meant, 'If someone is so lazy that they can't be bothered to go through the forum to read as the discussions evolved, then they don't care enough about becoming a better player/pilot of the deck.' Possibly.
But to add to the discussion, would Anticipate truly be better over cantrips? I know they perform different rolls, but I feel like Remand would be more useful in my matches. I feel like having cards that do things by themselves is just more useful than having cards that rely on other cards, even if we have a huge amount of card draw. Feels bad when you don't get the cards you need, though. I've been wrecked so many times by affinity because I didn't get a Verdict by turn 4.
My point is like you said ABH1. And Harrystyle is also clearly showing my point, instead of digging into what I said (go read the draw go principles and how we manage to make the deck work before you come with grave titans and thing in the ice). Instead of doing his homework, he comes here, spits something that makes so sense, gets my feedback and takes it like I'm Hitler. It's easier to blame someone who makes a point than looking at yourself in the mirror. So lets make something clear, we run very few creatures to turn off opponents PTE, Abrupt decays, terminate etc. We go with threats that cannot be answered easily, like WSZ. Playing a thing in the ice is just asking for our opponent to answer it immediately. To make that worth, we'd have to run many more threat, thus taking us further away from our game plan, draw, control, and win late. Even ruined halo (which is a card I advocate) has the downside of turning on opponent's abrupt decay, and some people will not run it for that reason. And what good would a grave titan do? The only decks Im willing to tap out to cast that create are the decks Im already beating without that creature! Turn 6 grave T is good vs fair decks, but we trek fair decks! Want to tap out at 6 mana vs ad nodes, scapeshift, torn, nahiri, storm, take turns, combo coco etc? And considering you can wait, and jam it at 10 mana so you have cryptic up, id rather play WSZ for X=7 and have 14 power by the end of my opponent's turn. Does that makes sense? Many many many people here know that already and Im starting to do exactly what I said we shouldn't do (keep repeating the same thing over and over again for the new comers). These things been discussed months ago. About anticipate, its a little more legitimate to revise our opinion. Not that I think its better than what we got (actually I find it *****ty myself) but at least, it stays in the draw go spirit an answers a problem we often have: I need a card now! As for AV, it doesn't fit in the draw go shell, you can go read previous pages and you will understand why. But I'll give u a clue, it doesn't answer the problem we often have: I need a card now!
Our deck is filled with cards that are a must. Esper charm, TT, Cryptic etc. We only have 4 cards to mess around with without breaking our draw engine. What we are trying to figure out is: what are the best 4 and what cards can be a slight upgrade to the "must cards" we have, for exemple if they reprint counterspell, we will change our counter package because it is better than what we have. But we will not mess around with mana leaks because it would have to be in the 4 flex spots and they are most likely not the best 4 we can have. We try to do better with the small things we get. You cannot integrate a new tech that asks for more than 4 cards (for exemple: thopter foundry or gifts). The problematic is tight and to get better, we have to think a lot, at least think twice many time (get it?) before investing time and energy into a card (like thing in the ice). We are the only control bastion, the lone warriors of an archetype almost none existent in modern. It is so inexistent that people think jund is control! We are in a rough spot, with a tier 2, maybe even 3 deck. Nonetheless, we pull overall good results because: we think. We try to understand. We do the whole processus of understanding the deck. It's not a good stuff deck with good cards that you can slam on the table and win. Actually, many of our cards sucks to the eye of our opponents. I get laugh at my TT, my logic knots and my wsz. After they lose (75% WR) they get interested in what I got. Its not the cards, but the synergies. If you lose the synergies, the deck is no longer playable, which brings us back to the 4 flex spots... People come in this thread and be like: hey add some new jaces they good. Hey, AV is unbanned and you play TT, whats wrong with u? Hey, dudes you should play more win cons, you have not enough etc. Sure it makes me salty, and maybe I shouldn't run around trying to be the thread police, but trust me, this deck is important to me. This deck is way more than a modern deck. Its a philosophy we carry on, we are showing wizards that we can make something work. Something they dont want to work. Inspired by the great Wafo, we pursue the control route. So honestly, if you dont have the will to invest yourself in it, you are in the wrong place for many reasons. First its hard to play and you won't make it. Second, there is still plenty of work to do, but the subtility of the problematic is so great that we need many brains to solve it. Third, you won't understand the mechanism and will be too tempted to transfer it into "good stuff" that is gonna be less good than und and friends.
I think I have said enough for the month, and will most likely keep stalking for now. When I'll have an idea, I will post. Often, guys here are so good that they get the ideas before I do, but believe me when I say that there is not a single night I go to sleep without thinking about my esper draw-go. It helps me sleep, I wish that I wouldn't sleep sometimes when I play it tho, cause I still make humongous misplays even if I have experience with it.
Sincerely yours GoodPastor
PS: please do your homeworks, not only for the community on this thread (that has to move forward and not backward) but mainly for you. You will experience something magnificent; you will follow the thought process of many great minds.
Thoughts on the ridiculous 4 mana NOPE spoiled recently?
I'm not sure if it's any good, but damn is it sweet. It's almost like double negative that has use outside of blood braid being cast. Currently I don't see it being played, but it's good to keep it fresh in mind just in case. Also providence isn't that great, it's 7 mana and if you're that deep into a game against burn you've probably won already, I'd rather have COP red. And note that it's the first upkeep, not your first which means regardless of play/draw you start the game at 26 then continue with turn 1.
RE: Read the whole damned thread
Bad idea to insist on. If you haven't noticed we are past 300 pages now and if somebody wants a simple question answered then they should just ask rather than spend an eternity sifting through old and mostly out of date discussions. Once the primer is updated then we can simply say "read the primer, then ask" but until then reading that much stuff is too annoying, too time consuming, and not nearly as fun as just playing the deck.
EDIT: Just to confirm, "abilities" does include activated and triggered effects yes?
It makes the think twices like esper charms number 5 and 6.
If you cut the other remand and shadow slots for non-cantripping cards then I recommend sticking with 4 think twice. Cutting 2 think twice works because you still have 20 cards in your deck that draw you cards (I'm counting snap in this count bc he generates a free card).
Yes, unless it specifies Either triggered or activated abilities, it will take all of them, so the card does.
@Anticipate-discuss: Ive substituted one of the 4 think twices for anticipate and have generally been glad for it. as someone stated; anticipate is better when you need a specific card right now.
For me it has been at its best in control-mirrors, when i have enough bait for their counterspells (ECharm, Rev, cryptic (Bounce land + draw)) and i just needed a threat to fire it all off for profit.
However, even in that situation tt+flashback would get 2 cards deep, and anticipate 3. - so not the biggest gap there.
But in the early turns, where we don't have the mana to cast + flashback, id probably rather have anticipate find my wrath NOW!!! than TT.
Overall i would say, if you wanna run it, 1 copy is fine. 2 is iffy and 3 is greedy.
I still think that if you really need to find a card like wrath or logic knot/remand, wouldnt peer through depths just be a better option?
Yes, unless it specifies Either triggered or activated abilities, it will take all of them, so the card does.
@Anticipate-discuss: Ive substituted one of the 4 think twices for anticipate and have generally been glad for it. as someone stated; anticipate is better when you need a specific card right now.
For me it has been at its best in control-mirrors, when i have enough bait for their counterspells (ECharm, Rev, cryptic (Bounce land + draw)) and i just needed a threat to fire it all off for profit.
However, even in that situation tt+flashback would get 2 cards deep, and anticipate 3. - so not the biggest gap there.
But in the early turns, where we don't have the mana to cast + flashback, id probably rather have anticipate find my wrath NOW!!! than TT.
Overall i would say, if you wanna run it, 1 copy is fine. 2 is iffy and 3 is greedy.
I still think that if you really need to find a card like wrath or logic knot/remand, wouldnt peer through depths just be a better option?
Strictly speaking yes it would, but sometimes you need to find lands.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
So if you use remands and some cantrip in the shadow / hallowed moonlight slot, plus 2 think twice
Lands shouldn't be an issue. Especially once you hit 3 for charm. Peer is almost one half of a mystical teachings , for 2 mana, that can also find sorceries
I don't like cutting TT for Anticipate, but some people mentioned the SoD/Remand spot. What I'm going to test is -2x Remand/SoD/Negate, -1x Elle (to the board for now) --> +2x Anticipate, +the 3rd Knot.
This way, I'm cutting the cards I want to be good but never are for me (Remand, SoD), for extra selection power -- this might help to solve the "wrong half of the deck" problem and gain us some percentage points in various places. At the same time, I don't like having too few counters and felt I was mulliganning a lot with such a top end. So I trimmed 'Speth for knot.
Edit: But really, having 4x Cryptic, 3-4x Wrath, 2x Rev, 1x WSZ, and 1x Elle is a lot of cards that are hard to keep in an opening hand. Even ECharm feels slow in this meta, thus why I'm packing extra smaller cards like Halo, Anticipate, extra 2MC's, etc.
In a 26 land deck, they SHOULDN'T, but they are. I noticed that it's still difficult to curve out naturally into 4 lands without casting some draw spells. Plus, it gets much harder to make land drops after mulligans too. I think Anticipate is prolly the choice, as it finds lands and enchants (Halo and Stony Silence anyone?) and doesn't reveal -- you can set up blowouts later with the card, like finding Verdict on t2 without them knowing. lol
In a 26 land deck, they SHOULDN'T, but they are. I noticed that it's still difficult to curve out naturally into 4 lands without casting some draw spells. Plus, it gets much harder to make land drops after mulligans too. I think Anticipate is prolly the choice, as it finds lands and enchants (Halo and Stony Silence anyone?) and doesn't reveal -- you can set up blowouts later with the card, like finding Verdict on t2 without them knowing. lol
This is why Telling Time looks good to me. Set up your land drop and filter a relevant draw.
I'm going to try out both Anticipate and Peer Through the Depths because not having a boardwipe makes everyone salty.
As for people asking the same questions over and over again:
I've read over 150 pages of this thread and that has really helped me to better understand the deck and appreciate the synergies and draw engine. However, reading it took me many hours and I found myself looking for a past discussion and turning up empty-handed, lost in the vast archives. What I suggest is that the primer be updated with links to the different discussions so that way new pilots can see the thought processes without hours of searching though material that isn't relevant to the current meta.
In a 26 land deck, they SHOULDN'T, but they are. I noticed that it's still difficult to curve out naturally into 4 lands without casting some draw spells. Plus, it gets much harder to make land drops after mulligans too. I think Anticipate is prolly the choice, as it finds lands and enchants (Halo and Stony Silence anyone?) and doesn't reveal -- you can set up blowouts later with the card, like finding Verdict on t2 without them knowing. lol
This is why Telling Time looks good to me. Set up your land drop and filter a relevant draw.
And this is why I've enjoyed playing telling time many times and recommended it =D
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I think a less tedious option would be for a team of us to help rewrite certain primer sections, and each of us write about 3-4 common topics
"Why no AV" ,
"why no serum visions".
"Why no Maindeck discard".
"Why play think twice"
Why not play tasigur
Why not secure the wastes instead of wsz
"You should play planeswalkers main"
Why spell snare needs to be 3+
"How does the sideboard work and overlap against deck x"
How do we beat deck X
Opinions on shadow of doubt
I think a less tedious option would be for a team of us to help rewrite certain primer sections, and each of us write about 3-4 common topics
"Why no AV" ,
"why no serum visions".
"Why no Maindeck discard".
"Why play think twice"
Why not play tasigur
Why not secure the wastes instead of wsz
"You should play planeswalkers main"
Why spell snare needs to be 3+
"How does the sideboard work and overlap against deck x"
How do we beat deck X
Opinions on shadow of doubt
For some reason to me, it is starting to feel like we are trying to build a commander deck.
Singleton this, singleton that, we can cut down from 4 of a primary spell to 3 to fit in another singleton something. At some point in time, I feel like if we keep trimming the core, we won't be able to consistently find what we need, which is kind of the point of this deck isn't it?
Put it this way, you would not want to anticipate/peer for a draw spell, we have enough of those already, probably not a charm, or a cryptic (too expensive most likely to cast outright at that time). you would mainly want to try to anticipate/peer for a wrath effect, a hard counter, or a spot removal. So if anything i could see cutting 1 think twice and 1 cryptic. But that's just me.
Edit: I really should not try to post things at 3am lol
I think Pastor wasn't trying to actually insult anyone. I think they just didn't explain what they meant in a very good way. I can't speak for them for certain, but it seemed to me that they meant, 'If someone is so lazy that they can't be bothered to go through the forum to read as the discussions evolved, then they don't care enough about becoming a better player/pilot of the deck.' Possibly.
But to add to the discussion, would Anticipate truly be better over cantrips? I know they perform different rolls, but I feel like Remand would be more useful in my matches. I feel like having cards that do things by themselves is just more useful than having cards that rely on other cards, even if we have a huge amount of card draw. Feels bad when you don't get the cards you need, though. I've been wrecked so many times by affinity because I didn't get a Verdict by turn 4.
Our deck is filled with cards that are a must. Esper charm, TT, Cryptic etc. We only have 4 cards to mess around with without breaking our draw engine. What we are trying to figure out is: what are the best 4 and what cards can be a slight upgrade to the "must cards" we have, for exemple if they reprint counterspell, we will change our counter package because it is better than what we have. But we will not mess around with mana leaks because it would have to be in the 4 flex spots and they are most likely not the best 4 we can have. We try to do better with the small things we get. You cannot integrate a new tech that asks for more than 4 cards (for exemple: thopter foundry or gifts). The problematic is tight and to get better, we have to think a lot, at least think twice many time (get it?) before investing time and energy into a card (like thing in the ice). We are the only control bastion, the lone warriors of an archetype almost none existent in modern. It is so inexistent that people think jund is control! We are in a rough spot, with a tier 2, maybe even 3 deck. Nonetheless, we pull overall good results because: we think. We try to understand. We do the whole processus of understanding the deck. It's not a good stuff deck with good cards that you can slam on the table and win. Actually, many of our cards sucks to the eye of our opponents. I get laugh at my TT, my logic knots and my wsz. After they lose (75% WR) they get interested in what I got. Its not the cards, but the synergies. If you lose the synergies, the deck is no longer playable, which brings us back to the 4 flex spots... People come in this thread and be like: hey add some new jaces they good. Hey, AV is unbanned and you play TT, whats wrong with u? Hey, dudes you should play more win cons, you have not enough etc. Sure it makes me salty, and maybe I shouldn't run around trying to be the thread police, but trust me, this deck is important to me. This deck is way more than a modern deck. Its a philosophy we carry on, we are showing wizards that we can make something work. Something they dont want to work. Inspired by the great Wafo, we pursue the control route. So honestly, if you dont have the will to invest yourself in it, you are in the wrong place for many reasons. First its hard to play and you won't make it. Second, there is still plenty of work to do, but the subtility of the problematic is so great that we need many brains to solve it. Third, you won't understand the mechanism and will be too tempted to transfer it into "good stuff" that is gonna be less good than und and friends.
I think I have said enough for the month, and will most likely keep stalking for now. When I'll have an idea, I will post. Often, guys here are so good that they get the ideas before I do, but believe me when I say that there is not a single night I go to sleep without thinking about my esper draw-go. It helps me sleep, I wish that I wouldn't sleep sometimes when I play it tho, cause I still make humongous misplays even if I have experience with it.
Sincerely yours GoodPastor
PS: please do your homeworks, not only for the community on this thread (that has to move forward and not backward) but mainly for you. You will experience something magnificent; you will follow the thought process of many great minds.
I'm not sure if it's any good, but damn is it sweet. It's almost like double negative that has use outside of blood braid being cast. Currently I don't see it being played, but it's good to keep it fresh in mind just in case. Also providence isn't that great, it's 7 mana and if you're that deep into a game against burn you've probably won already, I'd rather have COP red. And note that it's the first upkeep, not your first which means regardless of play/draw you start the game at 26 then continue with turn 1.
RE: Read the whole damned thread
Bad idea to insist on. If you haven't noticed we are past 300 pages now and if somebody wants a simple question answered then they should just ask rather than spend an eternity sifting through old and mostly out of date discussions. Once the primer is updated then we can simply say "read the primer, then ask" but until then reading that much stuff is too annoying, too time consuming, and not nearly as fun as just playing the deck.
EDIT: Just to confirm, "abilities" does include activated and triggered effects yes?
It makes the think twices like esper charms number 5 and 6.
If you cut the other remand and shadow slots for non-cantripping cards then I recommend sticking with 4 think twice. Cutting 2 think twice works because you still have 20 cards in your deck that draw you cards (I'm counting snap in this count bc he generates a free card).
I still think that if you really need to find a card like wrath or logic knot/remand, wouldnt peer through depths just be a better option?
Strictly speaking yes it would, but sometimes you need to find lands.
Lands shouldn't be an issue. Especially once you hit 3 for charm. Peer is almost one half of a mystical teachings , for 2 mana, that can also find sorceries
This way, I'm cutting the cards I want to be good but never are for me (Remand, SoD), for extra selection power -- this might help to solve the "wrong half of the deck" problem and gain us some percentage points in various places. At the same time, I don't like having too few counters and felt I was mulliganning a lot with such a top end. So I trimmed 'Speth for knot.
Edit: But really, having 4x Cryptic, 3-4x Wrath, 2x Rev, 1x WSZ, and 1x Elle is a lot of cards that are hard to keep in an opening hand. Even ECharm feels slow in this meta, thus why I'm packing extra smaller cards like Halo, Anticipate, extra 2MC's, etc.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
In a 26 land deck, they SHOULDN'T, but they are. I noticed that it's still difficult to curve out naturally into 4 lands without casting some draw spells. Plus, it gets much harder to make land drops after mulligans too. I think Anticipate is prolly the choice, as it finds lands and enchants (Halo and Stony Silence anyone?) and doesn't reveal -- you can set up blowouts later with the card, like finding Verdict on t2 without them knowing. lol
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
This is why Telling Time looks good to me. Set up your land drop and filter a relevant draw.
Maybe anticipate is better overall
I'll have to test it. You may be right.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
As for people asking the same questions over and over again:
I've read over 150 pages of this thread and that has really helped me to better understand the deck and appreciate the synergies and draw engine. However, reading it took me many hours and I found myself looking for a past discussion and turning up empty-handed, lost in the vast archives. What I suggest is that the primer be updated with links to the different discussions so that way new pilots can see the thought processes without hours of searching though material that isn't relevant to the current meta.
And this is why I've enjoyed playing telling time many times and recommended it =D
"Why no AV" ,
"why no serum visions".
"Why no Maindeck discard".
"Why play think twice"
Why not play tasigur
Why not secure the wastes instead of wsz
"You should play planeswalkers main"
Why spell snare needs to be 3+
"How does the sideboard work and overlap against deck x"
How do we beat deck X
Opinions on shadow of doubt
There's probably ten more prompts.
I wouldn't be opposed to this.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.