Not sure why the Thragtusks. This isn't Standard where you slam it against a field of Midrange decks and you can't lose.
Running Explore is tempting. I don't know if it's better than Esper Charm, but perhaps it's aggressive enough in regards to ramping that you can run additional expensive draw spells.
Being only 2 Breeding Pools away from splashing for 2 copies of Explore in the Remand/flex slots is interesting.
I'm not entirely sure playing just the 2 explores (kek!) is worth it. To me it's got to be at least 3 copies and even that's questionable. If we had better cantrips that did something or proper card selection like preordain I'd be thrilled, but alas. I'd test out UWexplore if I could, but I just don't have any of the mana base in paper outside of a single breeding pool lol. And going esper+explore is just not an option, 4 colors is too many for a control deck I believe.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I think the point is, this whole exercise of looking at bant lists gives us a basis to discuss two fundamental questions:
1. WHY are we on esper if the only card we gain for it is esper charm?
2. WHAT do the differences between proposed bant shells and the typical esper shell say about the draw-go archetype in modern, and what analogues can we find between those differences and OTHER options in other colors, or with other un(der)tested cards in our colors? Why do similar cards in the UWB slice not see play compared to the UWG shell, and is it because esper is missing something or because bant is missing something (on a strategic level, not card-by-card level).
My opinion: Esper is so superior to any other UWx control option mostly because of Esper Charm. We have the ability to grind and get relevant card advantage out of it. It punishes people for playing correctly against control and sandbagging their important threats against possible counterspells. It gives us the best trump against other control decks that I've ever seen (the Esper Charm knockout sequence). It digs out of hand disruption; enough to make Thoughtseize a meh card at best against us. It kills problem enchantments. And it does all of the above at instant speed. There is nothing that any other color has that can provide the edge that Esper Charm gives us. Every time I brew up a non-Esper UW deck, I have to ask myself instantly, "Is this worth cutting Esper Charm for?" The answer is always no.
I guess the other colors don't really contend because U draw-go control isn't very good outside of Esper with Esper Charm and Path. BGx stomps any other control deck because there's no good way to gain card advantage (at least, without Dig Through Time there's not) while keeping up with the board -- and control is supposed to beat midrange. In addition, there's no good t2 counterspell, there's little good spot removal (though Condemn is much better now, so maybe that's changed), and few general answers that are good enough to play in Modern (we have D-Sphere as vulnerable-but-playable option, at now we get Anguished Unmaking *fistpump).
DLO is a fine card, and I've played a weird-ass bant dragons build (with silumgar's scorn and alchemist's refuge) and I feel he shines more in there than anywhere else, but its not a draw-go deck.
Jace VP is much stronger in decks with proactive spells (read: not this deck, you want discard and burn).
We often won't have much of a yard early with logic knots and generally not casting a lot, and Jace is not the strongest turn 2 play. He's not a terrible card, but he certainly does not slot in here nicely.
As has been mentioned a bit earlier back, UW Control relies a bit more on mainboard threats than we do. Both individually have been fairly popular mainboard choices are different times, but WSZ is too important to cut for a sorcery speed walker.
Thragtusk is still incredibly powerful in modern. At worst, he eats two removal spells and gains 5 life, and we can protect him and clear his way fairly easily. He also leaves something behind after a boardwipe.
I feel explore is a 4-of or bust in control. It also sometimes leads to very awkward hands where you can't tap out early for the explore, and by the time you cast it, you've put down all your lands anyways, so if you've already got the think twices and the esper charms, I would pass.
Originally, I actually did play just the explores, the manlands, and a bant charm for green, but flashing in thragtusks is very good, and voidslime has not let me down yet, in the limited testing I've done.
Right now, there is a mono-U 2 for 1 at three mana: Murmurs From Beyond. It's not ideal by any stretch. With artifacts in your deck you have the options of Artificer's Epiphany and Thirst for Knowledge, but if you were interested in another option, there is the new Epiphany at the Drownyard (does similar as Murmurs when X=2). Or if you're wondering about another conditional way to get a 2 for 1, you could try Pulse of the Grid, again it's not great.
Its already modern legal, and its not really card advantage. Unless they print good madness spells, or you want to play lingering souls, this isn't good.
IMO, none of those are playable, or atleast none are better than esper charm / think twice.
If you're really scrambling for more draw power, just play a third rev. With 3 rev and 2 snap, you can fire off smaller ones much more often.
Its already modern legal, and its not really card advantage. Unless they print good madness spells, or you want to play lingering souls, this isn't good.
IMO, none of those are playable, or atleast none are better than esper charm / think twice.
If you're really scrambling for more draw power, just play a third rev. With 3 rev and 2 snap, you can fire off smaller ones much more often.
Very much this. Of all the card advantage spells in modern we're already running the best we have access to, and outside of esper charm none of them are that great in the format. We need FoF, accumulated knowledge, or ancestral vision to really have anything to talk about.
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One question for those theory-building Bant Draw-Go: Is Fracturing Gust something you'd play in the board?
If I was afraid of boggles and affinity I'd jam 2 in the board for sure. Without a MD disenchant you're more soft to boggles than usual and having access to a shatterstorm in the same card is pretty nice to make some room in the SB.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
Well, this is interesting - it would appear that I have the wrong forum! It would appear that this is NOT the Esper Draw-Go forum, as I was lead to believe, but a forum on theorycrafting control decks in Modern. Silly me. I guess I'll take my leave now....
...
Nah, I'm just kidding. Hello again, my fellow Esper mages! I have returned to the utopia that is this great forum after a rather drawn-out battle with my arch-nemesis - ALLERGIES! The battle was long, arduous, and quite honestly rather irritating, but at last, I was finally able to find (and sideboard in) my playset of Circle of Protection; Bullcrap and give pollen the boot, along with the finger. And thus, here I am again! And I would like to say hello to all of the new people that have started posting here as well. I'm pretty sure that a lot of other people have posted this, but I would like to say (or rather type) it anyway; it is nice to know that there are more than just a handful of people who play this deck. Whether you are new (to control, Modern or just the game in general) or you just feeling like rebelling against the social norms of Modern and refusing to play any kind of Aggro, Midrange or unfair deck, I salute you for playing what is (IMO) the best control deck in the format. And now, I shall also share with everyone my current list that I have been attempting to run. As per usual, if I manage to FUBAR up the formatting, I will also post a link to my current list on TappedOut. It also says which cards are currently in foil, so if you are interested in that sort of thing, feel free to check it out.
I am considering swapping the Godless Shrine back to a Glacial Fortress (I originally put it in since I was testing out Doom Blade), and I want to test out the Elixir of Immortality in the sideboard. It is mostly there for against Lantern Control, but I also wanted to test it out against other grindy matchups.
I also wanted to give my two cents on Anguished Unmaking, as I have seen a lot of people doing. However, I shall try to condense my opinion into one word; OMGYESYESYESGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGETINMYSIDEBOARDRIGHTNOWGIMMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
...well, I tried.
Anyway, I really like the card. I think it deserves a spot in the sideboard as at least a 1-of. That kind of flexibility is indeeed something that we need, and I for one do not feel safe in running Detention Sphere in a world where I have to protect it from both Abrupt Decay AND basically almost every Eldrazi variant. As for the life loss? Pfft, who cares? I am using this thing on your Karn Liberated! And if you are in the situation where you end up having to use it on a Dark Confidant, then by all means do what you gotta do. But if you are in the situation where you have to use it on a Goblin Guide, then I have a question for you; WHY ARE YOU RUNNING IT MAINBOARD? This is not the meta for that to be in there - put it in the sideboard where it belongs!
Well, that's all I have to say for now. If you have any questions for me, feel free to ask.
One question for those theory-building Bant Draw-Go: Is Fracturing Gust something you'd play in the board?
Yes. I played it when I played teachings, and it was pretty nice.
On a side note, teachings + gust means lantern control is basically an unlosable matchup.
Personally, if you're playing resto angel in U/W, I like vendilion cliques a lot, maybe more than wall of omens, as they become much better post-boardwipe.
Well, this is interesting - it would appear that I have the wrong forum! It would appear that this is NOT the Esper Draw-Go forum, as I was lead to believe, but a forum on theorycrafting control decks in Modern. Silly me. I guess I'll take my leave now....
...
Nah, I'm just kidding. Hello again, my fellow Esper mages! I have returned to the utopia that is this great forum after a rather drawn-out battle with my arch-nemesis - ALLERGIES! The battle was long, arduous, and quite honestly rather irritating, but at last, I was finally able to find (and sideboard in) my playset of Circle of Protection; Bullcrap and give pollen the boot, along with the finger. And thus, here I am again! And I would like to say hello to all of the new people that have started posting here as well. I'm pretty sure that a lot of other people have posted this, but I would like to say (or rather type) it anyway; it is nice to know that there are more than just a handful of people who play this deck. Whether you are new (to control, Modern or just the game in general) or you just feeling like rebelling against the social norms of Modern and refusing to play any kind of Aggro, Midrange or unfair deck, I salute you for playing what is (IMO) the best control deck in the format. And now, I shall also share with everyone my current list that I have been attempting to run. As per usual, if I manage to FUBAR up the formatting, I will also post a link to my current list on TappedOut. It also says which cards are currently in foil, so if you are interested in that sort of thing, feel free to check it out.
I am considering swapping the Godless Shrine back to a Glacial Fortress (I originally put it in since I was testing out Doom Blade), and I want to test out the Elixir of Immortality in the sideboard. It is mostly there for against Lantern Control, but I also wanted to test it out against other grindy matchups.
I also wanted to give my two cents on Anguished Unmaking, as I have seen a lot of people doing. However, I shall try to condense my opinion into one word; OMGYESYESYESGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGETINMYSIDEBOARDRIGHTNOWGIMMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
...well, I tried.
Anyway, I really like the card. I think it deserves a spot in the sideboard as at least a 1-of. That kind of flexibility is indeeed something that we need, and I for one do not feel safe in running Detention Sphere in a world where I have to protect it from both Abrupt Decay AND basically almost every Eldrazi variant. As for the life loss? Pfft, who cares? I am using this thing on your Karn Liberated! And if you are in the situation where you end up having to use it on a Dark Confidant, then by all means do what you gotta do. But if you are in the situation where you have to use it on a Goblin Guide, then I have a question for you; WHY ARE YOU RUNNING IT MAINBOARD? This is not the meta for that to be in there - put it in the sideboard where it belongs!
Well, that's all I have to say for now. If you have any questions for me, feel free to ask.
First thing is first; lol
Secondly, cut your negate and put in that fourth cryptic or I will cut you with a Shard of Broken Glass. for srs
Now actually being serious, You really need another blue source and I'd really want another white source as well like cutting the tarpit for a glacial fortress. I wouldn't cut the godless shrine unless you're replacing it with another shock just to ensure that on turn 20 you still have things to fetch for. Trust me it's come up and burned me many times being short a land that late to snapcaster a logic knot for X=Many. I don't know what meta you play in so I can't comment on the halo's, but I don't like running them in the dark. Without a very solid reason, or more accurately a specific target, they're not too hot.
Sorry about all the bizarro control theory crafting, that's my bad. I wrote a mega post a few pages back talking about straight UW and we just regressed into talking general control theorycrafting for all the other colors. And by all, I mean UW and UWG with (2)explores. I'll be giving plain old UW classy control it's first test drive tomorrow night at my not so local shop and I'll let everyone know how it goes and how it compared to esper which I've been playing there for a couple months. I even got new sleeves!
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One thing about elixir that's super offputting for modern is you shuffle in all your fetches, which essentially become blank draws by the time elixir matters.
One thing about elixir that's super offputting for modern is you shuffle in all your fetches, which essentially become blank draws by the time elixir matters.
If you're on the triple logic knot plan than that shouldn't be an issue. Just knot a random think twice for infinity if you can spare the counter to clear our the trash. Though I've never been a fan of it in modern tbh, when you want that effect your opponent usually has that sort of effect covered in some way.
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What are you guys and girls doing about walker decks, seems like once they land there's nothing we can do to beat them (if we don't draw into cryptic's).
It's all of them really, lilianna backed up by thoughtseize and ghost quarters, karn, even played against a sorin markov, and just had to sit there as it killed me. Not sure whether I'm just not drawing well enough or what, but if my opponent lands a planeswalker I normally lose.
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Running Explore is tempting. I don't know if it's better than Esper Charm, but perhaps it's aggressive enough in regards to ramping that you can run additional expensive draw spells.
Being only 2 Breeding Pools away from splashing for 2 copies of Explore in the Remand/flex slots is interesting.
My opinion: Esper is so superior to any other UWx control option mostly because of Esper Charm. We have the ability to grind and get relevant card advantage out of it. It punishes people for playing correctly against control and sandbagging their important threats against possible counterspells. It gives us the best trump against other control decks that I've ever seen (the Esper Charm knockout sequence). It digs out of hand disruption; enough to make Thoughtseize a meh card at best against us. It kills problem enchantments. And it does all of the above at instant speed. There is nothing that any other color has that can provide the edge that Esper Charm gives us. Every time I brew up a non-Esper UW deck, I have to ask myself instantly, "Is this worth cutting Esper Charm for?" The answer is always no.
I guess the other colors don't really contend because U draw-go control isn't very good outside of Esper with Esper Charm and Path. BGx stomps any other control deck because there's no good way to gain card advantage (at least, without Dig Through Time there's not) while keeping up with the board -- and control is supposed to beat midrange. In addition, there's no good t2 counterspell, there's little good spot removal (though Condemn is much better now, so maybe that's changed), and few general answers that are good enough to play in Modern (we have D-Sphere as vulnerable-but-playable option, at now we get Anguished Unmaking *fistpump).
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Jace VP is much stronger in decks with proactive spells (read: not this deck, you want discard and burn).
We often won't have much of a yard early with logic knots and generally not casting a lot, and Jace is not the strongest turn 2 play. He's not a terrible card, but he certainly does not slot in here nicely.
As has been mentioned a bit earlier back, UW Control relies a bit more on mainboard threats than we do. Both individually have been fairly popular mainboard choices are different times, but WSZ is too important to cut for a sorcery speed walker.
Thragtusk is still incredibly powerful in modern. At worst, he eats two removal spells and gains 5 life, and we can protect him and clear his way fairly easily. He also leaves something behind after a boardwipe.
I feel explore is a 4-of or bust in control. It also sometimes leads to very awkward hands where you can't tap out early for the explore, and by the time you cast it, you've put down all your lands anyways, so if you've already got the think twices and the esper charms, I would pass.
Originally, I actually did play just the explores, the manlands, and a bant charm for green, but flashing in thragtusks is very good, and voidslime has not let me down yet, in the limited testing I've done.
Is this close enough to the Instanation (instant Divination) you guys were asking for?
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
WTF Wizards
PD: Isn't this worse than Artificer's Epiphany? Again, WTF Wizards :'(
Right now, there is a mono-U 2 for 1 at three mana: Murmurs From Beyond. It's not ideal by any stretch. With artifacts in your deck you have the options of Artificer's Epiphany and Thirst for Knowledge, but if you were interested in another option, there is the new Epiphany at the Drownyard (does similar as Murmurs when X=2). Or if you're wondering about another conditional way to get a 2 for 1, you could try Pulse of the Grid, again it's not great.
IMO, none of those are playable, or atleast none are better than esper charm / think twice.
If you're really scrambling for more draw power, just play a third rev. With 3 rev and 2 snap, you can fire off smaller ones much more often.
Very much this. Of all the card advantage spells in modern we're already running the best we have access to, and outside of esper charm none of them are that great in the format. We need FoF, accumulated knowledge, or ancestral vision to really have anything to talk about.
If I was afraid of boggles and affinity I'd jam 2 in the board for sure. Without a MD disenchant you're more soft to boggles than usual and having access to a shatterstorm in the same card is pretty nice to make some room in the SB.
...
Nah, I'm just kidding. Hello again, my fellow Esper mages! I have returned to the utopia that is this great forum after a rather drawn-out battle with my arch-nemesis - ALLERGIES! The battle was long, arduous, and quite honestly rather irritating, but at last, I was finally able to find (and sideboard in) my playset of Circle of Protection; Bullcrap and give pollen the boot, along with the finger. And thus, here I am again! And I would like to say hello to all of the new people that have started posting here as well. I'm pretty sure that a lot of other people have posted this, but I would like to say (or rather type) it anyway; it is nice to know that there are more than just a handful of people who play this deck. Whether you are new (to control, Modern or just the game in general) or you just feeling like rebelling against the social norms of Modern and refusing to play any kind of Aggro, Midrange or unfair deck, I salute you for playing what is (IMO) the best control deck in the format. And now, I shall also share with everyone my current list that I have been attempting to run. As per usual, if I manage to FUBAR up the formatting, I will also post a link to my current list on TappedOut. It also says which cards are currently in foil, so if you are interested in that sort of thing, feel free to check it out.
The TappedOut link; http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/03-01-16-esper-control-modern/
And the decklist;
1 Condemn
4 Path to Exile
2 Runed Halo
3 Supreme Verdict
Permission
3 Cryptic Command
1 Deprive
2 Logic Knot
1 Negate
3 Spell Snare
Card Advantage
4 Esper Charm
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Think Twice
Win Cons
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 White Sun's Zenith
2 Snapcaster Mage
Lands
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Dispel
1 Elixir of Immortality
2 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wrath of God
I am considering swapping the Godless Shrine back to a Glacial Fortress (I originally put it in since I was testing out Doom Blade), and I want to test out the Elixir of Immortality in the sideboard. It is mostly there for against Lantern Control, but I also wanted to test it out against other grindy matchups.
I also wanted to give my two cents on Anguished Unmaking, as I have seen a lot of people doing. However, I shall try to condense my opinion into one word; OMGYESYESYESGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGETINMYSIDEBOARDRIGHTNOWGIMMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!
...well, I tried.
Anyway, I really like the card. I think it deserves a spot in the sideboard as at least a 1-of. That kind of flexibility is indeeed something that we need, and I for one do not feel safe in running Detention Sphere in a world where I have to protect it from both Abrupt Decay AND basically almost every Eldrazi variant. As for the life loss? Pfft, who cares? I am using this thing on your Karn Liberated! And if you are in the situation where you end up having to use it on a Dark Confidant, then by all means do what you gotta do. But if you are in the situation where you have to use it on a Goblin Guide, then I have a question for you; WHY ARE YOU RUNNING IT MAINBOARD? This is not the meta for that to be in there - put it in the sideboard where it belongs!
Well, that's all I have to say for now. If you have any questions for me, feel free to ask.
Yes. I played it when I played teachings, and it was pretty nice.
On a side note, teachings + gust means lantern control is basically an unlosable matchup.
Personally, if you're playing resto angel in U/W, I like vendilion cliques a lot, maybe more than wall of omens, as they become much better post-boardwipe.
First thing is first; lol
Secondly, cut your negate and put in that fourth cryptic or I will cut you with a Shard of Broken Glass. for srs
Now actually being serious, You really need another blue source and I'd really want another white source as well like cutting the tarpit for a glacial fortress. I wouldn't cut the godless shrine unless you're replacing it with another shock just to ensure that on turn 20 you still have things to fetch for. Trust me it's come up and burned me many times being short a land that late to snapcaster a logic knot for X=Many. I don't know what meta you play in so I can't comment on the halo's, but I don't like running them in the dark. Without a very solid reason, or more accurately a specific target, they're not too hot.
Sorry about all the bizarro control theory crafting, that's my bad. I wrote a mega post a few pages back talking about straight UW and we just regressed into talking general control theorycrafting for all the other colors. And by all, I mean UW and UWG with (2)explores. I'll be giving plain old UW classy control it's first test drive tomorrow night at my not so local shop and I'll let everyone know how it goes and how it compared to esper which I've been playing there for a couple months. I even got new sleeves!
If you're on the triple logic knot plan than that shouldn't be an issue. Just knot a random think twice for infinity if you can spare the counter to clear our the trash. Though I've never been a fan of it in modern tbh, when you want that effect your opponent usually has that sort of effect covered in some way.