I agree that in a draw go shell the hand disruption is not as good. I have never been talking about playing draw go. I still think that if you play draw go, there is no point in running black. Esper charm is not THAT good and you could just play UW and not be as soft to a resolved blood moon.
My idea for this deck has always been a proactive one by using hand disruption to curve into walkers, which then provide virtual card advantage every turn. This eliminates the need to play EoT card draw spells like esper charm. Playing a card like Lilliana also reduces the pain of drawing redundant copies of discard effects late in the game.
@amelek0: you keep refuting my arguments for hand disruption, but I am not trying to play your style with hand disruption. I want to try something new.
This is roughly the Maindeck of what I will be sleeping up this week:
so that's a first try. The lack of cryptic command is probably noticeable but the mana is going to be tight anyway.
It's going to have a strong combo Matchup, so the sideboard will probably start with 3 Kor Firewalkers for the burn matchup. I really like running 4 Spreading Seas in this style deck to fight against tron. It has the added benefit of being good against Abzan, as they will generally side out a number of abrupt decays in a matchup with Lilli and snap as he only targets. For twin I would probably just run 1 or 2 more TS/IoK. Probably about 2 Dismember for Twin, Abzan, and zoo.
cheap
pre-emptive threat elimination
choice of what to take
knowledge of players hand (most valuable i think)
cons:
bad top decks late game
doesn't effect the board
*haven't stopped a card that the other player has paid for (biggest drawback i think)*
if you're not following disruption with pressure they'll find that piece again
its not hard to see hand disruption is really strong certain matches (control/combo) and terrible others (redundant agro decks). I think the deck could benefit from an effect like monastery siege. the looting every turn would allow us to pitch the late game mana leaks and hand disruption. I think the problem is that the deck is already maxed on its ability to stabilize the early game and playing a 3cmc enchantment isn't going to help that. so not saying thats an answer but the deck could greatly benefit from a tool like that. are there any viable cards to do that in esper? i think monetary siege is the closest and its just not quite there.
I also majorly echo cbgirado--do you understand how many people in the UW thread are splashing for JUST ESPER CHARM in their 75? Esper charm is THAT GOOD. It also doubles as a solid midrange MU card (2 for 1's yo) that also is LIVE against SPLINTER TWIN (Demystify OP). Esper charm is the stone-cold nuts, period end of story. I'd play six copies. I'd play tap-out style esper if I were allowed to play six copies of esper charm in it. I'm unsure as to whether more than six could be correct; that would require further testing. I'm sure the first six copies are mandatory.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
@rumtitan i like the start. but I'm going to be a voice her to for Esper charm as well, it totally is the biggest reason to be black here. its one of the few cards thats as good on turn 3 as it is on turn 20 and every mode is relevant (and one of narsets strongest targets for rebound), so id find a home for some. let us know how that deck plays out! other than Esper charm, my other thought was why 2/2 split with timely reinforcements and souls especially since it makes a great target for lili.
as another note, not a 4-0 but this deck did get 3-1 in a MODO daily and i think is a great direction for esper, i hope we see more out of this. piloted by TheSauceBoss
Yes. I have played esper charm. It's a fine card. amaleko, cbgirando: I own esper charms, I know it's good.
Esper charm making your deck better vs Blood Moon than running 2 colours and more basics is ridiculous. I know it can hit enchantments, but again, if they resolve blood moon, you have 4 basic in your deck and you will never cast Esper charm again.
@Cipher - I get that if you are both hellbent it is a bad top deck to get an inquisition of kozilek. That's why I want to add Lilliana. She keeps the board clear, pressures the opponents hand, and gets rid of your souls, extra discard, and snapcaster targets. Also, and this is going to be more of a corner case: rebounding a thoughtseize is pretty insane against another control deck. Not every modern match is hellbent by turn 6. It may be wrong to run Lilliana and if I cut her back I could see just running 4 discard
@Maty thanks for posting that build from MTGO. I am actually just going to copy that list and take it out on Tuesday night (Tuesday's here get about 20-30 people generally)
@Rumtitan i think my last post covered most of the grievances you highlighted there i still think Esper charm is valuable, especially in the walker builds you and me are trying to build. I think esper charm with narset is too good to pass on (you're also able to change its modes between initial casting and rebound which makes it even sicker to both discard and draw) the more i actually think about it the less necessary serum visions seems. after doing some testing with a buddy last night they've gone out on my list (even though they're nice to set narrates) and I've put in 3 inquisitions.
Has anyone here actually tested a plainswalker control deck since Narset came out? I see a TON of theory crafting and defence of existing archetypes but nobody is saying much in the way of tournament reports.
I was just thinking that Ojutai's soft lock is probably strong enough for Modern. The problem of course is Liliana and the whole things where it's a 5 mana sorcery against Twin. It would be a hell of a deck, though. Maybe it's just better in UWR, once again. The discard would help with Twin, but the red removal is stronger in general.
Playing scorn in modern would be amazing but I'm not sure if you can; run enough dragons, and if the force spike effect is as powerful as it is in standard. I know Jeff Hoogland played 2 Ojutai in a UW modern deck using Silumgars Scorn and Spellstutter Sprite along with the help of Mutavault. Seemed unpolished but a cool idea.
Forgot about Mutavault, but you could basically run 4 Ojutai. Don't see any need to play Spellstutter Sprite; I'd just want a ton of hand and stack disruption to be able to go for Ojutai vs combo and probably Azorius Charms for Aggro?
I haven't put up a tournament report recently because I've been a busy beaver judging the things instead of playing in them. That being said, if anyone is going to GP Worcestire on may 23-24, I'll be on the judge staff at the event. Roles haven't been posted yet but I plan to request duty for the modern IQ on sunday, so I hope to see some of you come out (even the tap-out planeswalker builds; you may be the weird, cockeyed 2nd cousins but you're still family).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
pretty sweet four-color midrange deck. Not really esper control, not by most definitions.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
I know it's not necessarily control but I feel like it's as close as we're going to get. After playing different list of pure Esper for months I haven't got the success rate of the list above simply because Esper is so slow. With cards like Abrupt Decay and Tarmogoyf our Splinter Twin matchup becomes a lot better MB.
that deck seems to have a lot of good stuff in it, but doesn't it have a really hard time with the mana? how often do your games just fold to not getting your proper lands or taking too much damage off of them?
Get used to responses like that, lol. I play rock Nic-Fit in Legacy and that's the kind of thing you hear from people who don't understand a deck. This deck is actually as close to a nic-fit build in Modern as I've seen and I think it looks sweet.
While sweet and probably good, I don't think your deck belongs on this thread. It is nor Esper nor control.
It shares more cards with Fabiano's Sultai Midrange deck than with any of the Esper Control variants discussed here.
The deck seems cool and fun to play with, tho. Good luck with it, wherever you discuss about it
^ This.
This thread is dedicated to draw-go style control decks.
@ Dasro20, the attitude is not necessary when you dont get comments that you are hoping for. This thread is not about creature based midrange decks. I am sure you like the deck and it does well and I am sure others will feel the same. But you are not going to find those people here. This thread started because of Wafo-Tapo's Esper list from awhile back; that had 2 Snapcasters as the only creatures.
If you think adding W to what is basically Fabiano's BUG list has merit, go to the the BUG thread and see what people who are playing that deck think. But you are going to only get similar answers to the above from people in this thread because it has no place here.
This list has enough counters to protect us and our Tasigur.
Geist doesn't need protection, so he will be free to cast on turn 3.
Tasigur is easy to cast on turn 3 or 4. Always hold one counter spell to protect him.
Liliana can be strong against combo and control decks. Weak against fast decks, but she can protect us from a lightning bolt.
Sideboard:
Spellskite, Timely Reinforcements and Blind Obedience: Burn.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, Negate, Spellskite, Gideon Jura and Ghostly Prison: Control, Combo and Twin decks.
Patrician's Scorn and Zealous Persecution: Aura Hexproof.
Stony Silence and Negate: Tron.
By the time you're playing thought scours, mainboard discard, and Lilly of the Veil, I have to ask why the hell you're not just playing esper mentor? Seems like a more stable shell for those cards and that strategy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
My idea for this deck has always been a proactive one by using hand disruption to curve into walkers, which then provide virtual card advantage every turn. This eliminates the need to play EoT card draw spells like esper charm. Playing a card like Lilliana also reduces the pain of drawing redundant copies of discard effects late in the game.
@amelek0: you keep refuting my arguments for hand disruption, but I am not trying to play your style with hand disruption. I want to try something new.
This is roughly the Maindeck of what I will be sleeping up this week:
2 Narset Transcendant
2 Gideon Jura
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Visions
3 Remand
1 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquistition of Kozilek
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
2 Lingering Souls
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Creeping Tarpit
3 Celestial Collonade
2 Tectonic Egde
8 Fetch
4 Shocks
4 Basics
so that's a first try. The lack of cryptic command is probably noticeable but the mana is going to be tight anyway.
It's going to have a strong combo Matchup, so the sideboard will probably start with 3 Kor Firewalkers for the burn matchup. I really like running 4 Spreading Seas in this style deck to fight against tron. It has the added benefit of being good against Abzan, as they will generally side out a number of abrupt decays in a matchup with Lilli and snap as he only targets. For twin I would probably just run 1 or 2 more TS/IoK. Probably about 2 Dismember for Twin, Abzan, and zoo.
I'll let you all know how it shakes out!
I stream Modern events semi-regularly at http://www.twitch.tv/nezeru
cheap
pre-emptive threat elimination
choice of what to take
knowledge of players hand (most valuable i think)
cons:
bad top decks late game
doesn't effect the board
*haven't stopped a card that the other player has paid for (biggest drawback i think)*
if you're not following disruption with pressure they'll find that piece again
its not hard to see hand disruption is really strong certain matches (control/combo) and terrible others (redundant agro decks). I think the deck could benefit from an effect like monastery siege. the looting every turn would allow us to pitch the late game mana leaks and hand disruption. I think the problem is that the deck is already maxed on its ability to stabilize the early game and playing a 3cmc enchantment isn't going to help that. so not saying thats an answer but the deck could greatly benefit from a tool like that. are there any viable cards to do that in esper? i think monetary siege is the closest and its just not quite there.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
as another note, not a 4-0 but this deck did get 3-1 in a MODO daily and i think is a great direction for esper, i hope we see more out of this. piloted by TheSauceBoss
4 path to exile
2 spell snare
2 thoughtseize
4 mana leak
4 esper charm
3 lingering souls
1 sphinx's revelation
3 cryptic command
1 elspeth, knight-errant
1 jace, architect of thought
2 narset transcendent
2 supreme verdict
1 wrath of god
2 gideon jura
Esper charm making your deck better vs Blood Moon than running 2 colours and more basics is ridiculous. I know it can hit enchantments, but again, if they resolve blood moon, you have 4 basic in your deck and you will never cast Esper charm again.
@Cipher - I get that if you are both hellbent it is a bad top deck to get an inquisition of kozilek. That's why I want to add Lilliana. She keeps the board clear, pressures the opponents hand, and gets rid of your souls, extra discard, and snapcaster targets. Also, and this is going to be more of a corner case: rebounding a thoughtseize is pretty insane against another control deck. Not every modern match is hellbent by turn 6. It may be wrong to run Lilliana and if I cut her back I could see just running 4 discard
@Maty thanks for posting that build from MTGO. I am actually just going to copy that list and take it out on Tuesday night (Tuesday's here get about 20-30 people generally)
looks like at least one other person is as well
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Siege Rhino
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Serum Visions
3 Path to Exile
2 Mana Leak
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Esper Charm
3 Lingering Souls
1 Damnation
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Murderous Cut
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Celestial Purge
2 Stony Silence
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Lingering Souls
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Batterskull
1 Thragtusk
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Or maybe you should try a deck before you say something is bad. This isn't a list I randomly just threw together.
GBW Nic-Fit GBW
UBRWG Dredge UBRWG
Modern:
R RDW R
UBW Esper Control UBW
EDH:
BG Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord BG
^ This.
This thread is dedicated to draw-go style control decks.
@ Dasro20, the attitude is not necessary when you dont get comments that you are hoping for. This thread is not about creature based midrange decks. I am sure you like the deck and it does well and I am sure others will feel the same. But you are not going to find those people here. This thread started because of Wafo-Tapo's Esper list from awhile back; that had 2 Snapcasters as the only creatures.
If you think adding W to what is basically Fabiano's BUG list has merit, go to the the BUG thread and see what people who are playing that deck think. But you are going to only get similar answers to the above from people in this thread because it has no place here.
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Spells (27)
2 Cryptic Command
1 Dismember
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
3 Thought Scour
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
3 Anticipate
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dispell
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
3 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Spellskite
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Negate
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Patrician's Scorn
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Gideon Jura
1 Blind Obedience
2 Stony Silence
This list has enough counters to protect us and our Tasigur.
Geist doesn't need protection, so he will be free to cast on turn 3.
Tasigur is easy to cast on turn 3 or 4. Always hold one counter spell to protect him.
Liliana can be strong against combo and control decks. Weak against fast decks, but she can protect us from a lightning bolt.
Sideboard:
Spellskite, Timely Reinforcements and Blind Obedience: Burn.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, Negate, Spellskite, Gideon Jura and Ghostly Prison: Control, Combo and Twin decks.
Patrician's Scorn and Zealous Persecution: Aura Hexproof.
Stony Silence and Negate: Tron.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm