I've cut down Esper Charm to 0 in favor of 2 Force of Negation and 2 Kaya's Guile. I will need more testing to see if it's the right thing, but so far, it's not bad.
So, I’ve got a 4-0 today. Paired against Izzet Phoenix (2-0), UB Turns (2-0), AltarVine (2-1) and Humans (2-1).
In three tournaments, I’ve got 4-1, 2-2, 4-0 changing little. Force of Negation immediately impacted the deck, cause it’s basically a mono blue that splashes two colors. Turn 0 protection is exactly what the deck was lacking, and it showed today against both AltarVine and Humans in game one (Looting, Vial). It’s also the perfect way to deal with opposing walkers in counterwars (Cryptic and Charm suddenly become WAY more appealing even in the mirror).
Lately I’ve been immersed in testing with UR/Grixis Bloo and Phoenix variants, but I feel that it’s a good time to play this deck.
Do we have a good tron match up? I am just curious to know your opinion. I have an lgs that is very tron heavy like 4-6 players on a given friday are on it. Ill be honest, I am very high on your list, as a blue mage I love nothing more than never tapping out at sorcery speed. Also is the lack of a sweeper in addition to blast zone because of the large amount of spot removal? How damaging is blast zone being a land drop on turns 1-3 and then being unable to hold up a turn 3 archmage's charm?
I've either been very lucky against Tron or we have a good matchup against them. I'm playing with 2 Big Teferi and 2 Jace though. Game 1 is atrocious. Games 2 and 3 seem to be a breeze though. I still feel like I've been lucky thus far though.
I would say Tron is a good MU for us, or at least slightly favorable.
As chaos021 said, game 1 is tough. I play vs. Tron nearly every week at FNM and I have lost 99% of pre-board games. FOr this reason I am running 2 Ceremonious Rejection, 2 Unmoored Ego, Stony Silence and Surgical Extraction in the SB paired with 3 Field of Ruin main. What you REALLY need versus Tron post board is a faster clock (and with faster I mean faster than Teferi/Jace). Here, I think Vendilion Clique is the weapon of choice due to the "discard" effect.
Oh and one more tip based on my experiences so far. You really have to hurry. Out of 10 games, around 8 games have been a draw due to time-out, although I had the win on board or in hand. Because of that, I sometimes even start to disrupt them early, countering Ancient Stirrings, Chromatic Stars and so on to slow them down and start hitting with my clock fast.
In summary, the MU gets much better post-board with better clocks and more disruption. But have an eye on the round timer and don't hesitate to scoop the first game to gain you more time!
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Currently playing: Modern: Esper/Azorius Control UBW Pauper: UB Reanimator UB UR Control UR Pauper Commander: Stormchaser Mage UR Sedraxis Specter UBR Nightveil Predator UB Artisan of Kozilek C
Tron has been very favourable with my list. You don’t have any conditional counterspell, and hypothetically 12 hard counterspells + 5 Snapcasters + Vendilion Clique to deal with Ulamog. The lack of Field of Ruin doesn’t really damage the matchup, given they have great consistency. In my experience they never outclass you, simply because you’ve got an answer for everything they have.
There are 20 blue sources in the list, they’re more than enough to support Charm and Cryptic. If it happens that you lack the third blue on turn three, well, you just play Esper Charm or interact with the opponent.
Blast Zone is by far the best sweeper this deck could play. Uncounterable, doesn’t require spell slots, it deals with planeswalkers too.
Hi all, returning after a long hiatus; finally got into a new job with a little more flex time.
My question for you all is: Is there still a consistent core to the deck? Last I played (pre-JTMS unban), the deck consistently ran 2-4 Snaps, 4 Charms, 3-4 wraths, 3-4 cryptic, and 4 Path, with also fairly consistent draw spells (T2), permission (Knot, Remand), and X spells (Rev, Zenith, Secure the Wastes).
Is there currently such a shell in Esper draw-go? Or is this a time of flux where everyone is trying to figure out the deck again after the upheaval of the last few sets?
Almost no one still plays true draw-go.
Jace unbanning + teferi printing + azcanta printing has changed how control decks are built to a large degree.
The most successful esper list in the dominaria up to modern horizons has been Zach Allen's SCG second place list.
The shard has seen a spike in popularity of lists based off of his, though its not really a draw-go list.
Most of us who've played the original list have been playing various in-between lists, some closer to the old ones and some to the new ones.
Horizons has shaken up the format a good deal, and the only thing I'm confident saying is that anyone saying confident things about control deck construction is unlikely to have the necessary data to back up that confidence.
So its definitely a flex time.
Jace and teferi, plus all the new WAR walkers are still popular and still powerful, but they definitely skew towards tapout control.
Archamge's charm and FoF out of horizons are two very decent options for maintaining value in a full draw-go deck though.
Definitely an interesting time to be a modern control player.
I'm not sure what your collection looks like, but if you have the budget, you might just try to pick any and all staples you've missed so you'll have to option to play whatever turns out to be best. If you don't, you'll probably want to wait atleast another few weeks to see the MC meta + the fallout, then jump in after that.
Thanks, Cody. So much for my plan to just watch Donny’s latest stream and make grandiose proclamations about where he’s gone wrong in his deckbuilding. =)
With all this Hogaak nonsense floating around, I'm not even in the least bit concerned with finding the "right" control list. The meta is going to change instantly after something gets banned/unbanned (I guarantee HogaakVine is eating a ban), so I'm just playing whatever cards I want to while trying to have game against the t0 deck until it's gone.
That's why I don't really have any suggestions for a core 60. That said, I could post my current approximate 75 if anyone is interested.
Well this is what I'd play in a tournament tomorrow. I think the mainboard Kaya's Guile is probably better than playing a Surgical Extraction mainboard, but I'm not sure. I also think that 4 Colonnade could be too many, but again, I'm not quite sure. Perhaps 3 is better. Finally, I'd prefer to fit a 2nd 4-mana Wrath in there somewhere for Humans, but I don't think I can cut anything. Queller is for a disruptive clock that is good against Burn/MonoR Pheonix.
If I were to play a list without Miracles, I'd be on this:
FoF might be trash, but, again, I don't know and I don't really care. Assuming I can make it to FNM this friday, I'll play this list and let y'all know how it goes.
I could also see putting together a build with some Nihil Spellbombs perhaps.
PSA: Kaya's Guile's sac mode is NOT Blessed Alliance -- they sac ANY creature, not just attackers. I almost lost a game vs. Infect for that mistake.
So are you guys also on an 8 charm list? Im curious, because mainly I really want to know how something like rabbit's list would fair.
I'm playing quasi-Draw Go version with 0 Esper Charms. I replaced some with new 3 mana planeswalkers at one point. Now, I've replaced with them 2 Force of Negation and 2 Archmage's Charm. I still have two Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and two Jace, the Mind Sculptor as my win cons. As SanityLost said, the biggest problem is actually just finishing the game. I tend to play very fast and somewhat more aggressive than I should in games 2 and 3 just to finish the match on time. That said, you have all the tools. It's really a matter of being familiar enough with your own list to figure out your specific plan of attack.
Anyone have tips for main/sideboard in control mirrors? I've been getting stomped by Teferi, Time Raveler and Narset, Parter of Veils just locking me out of the game. I know the obvious answer is "don't let them resolve" but assuming I miss that boat what's the next best approach to dealing with them in the early-mid game before I can reliably have manlands to pressure them? I generally try to aggressively play a Snapcaster if possible to add pressure to them.
The Elderspell? I know it's super silly, but I think this is an actual decent answer. You can't cast anything at instant speed anyway and 1UBB isn't bad for a Snap back cost to pressure through counters. Other than that, I think you're looking at attacking unless you settle for more expensive walker removal.
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Oust
4 Opt
1 Dovin's Veto
2 Cryptic Command
1 Azorius Charm
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
1 Path to Exile
1 Remand
1 Mana Leak
2 Fatal Push
1 Force of Negation
1 Scheming Symmetry
1 Spell Snare
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Set Adrift
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
Do we have a good tron match up? I am just curious to know your opinion. I have an lgs that is very tron heavy like 4-6 players on a given friday are on it. Ill be honest, I am very high on your list, as a blue mage I love nothing more than never tapping out at sorcery speed. Also is the lack of a sweeper in addition to blast zone because of the large amount of spot removal? How damaging is blast zone being a land drop on turns 1-3 and then being unable to hold up a turn 3 archmage's charm?
As chaos021 said, game 1 is tough. I play vs. Tron nearly every week at FNM and I have lost 99% of pre-board games. FOr this reason I am running 2 Ceremonious Rejection, 2 Unmoored Ego, Stony Silence and Surgical Extraction in the SB paired with 3 Field of Ruin main. What you REALLY need versus Tron post board is a faster clock (and with faster I mean faster than Teferi/Jace). Here, I think Vendilion Clique is the weapon of choice due to the "discard" effect.
Oh and one more tip based on my experiences so far. You really have to hurry. Out of 10 games, around 8 games have been a draw due to time-out, although I had the win on board or in hand. Because of that, I sometimes even start to disrupt them early, countering Ancient Stirrings, Chromatic Stars and so on to slow them down and start hitting with my clock fast.
In summary, the MU gets much better post-board with better clocks and more disruption. But have an eye on the round timer and don't hesitate to scoop the first game to gain you more time!
Modern: Esper/Azorius Control UBW
Pauper: UB Reanimator UB UR Control UR
Pauper Commander: Stormchaser Mage UR Sedraxis Specter UBR Nightveil Predator UB Artisan of Kozilek C
There are 20 blue sources in the list, they’re more than enough to support Charm and Cryptic. If it happens that you lack the third blue on turn three, well, you just play Esper Charm or interact with the opponent.
Blast Zone is by far the best sweeper this deck could play. Uncounterable, doesn’t require spell slots, it deals with planeswalkers too.
My question for you all is: Is there still a consistent core to the deck? Last I played (pre-JTMS unban), the deck consistently ran 2-4 Snaps, 4 Charms, 3-4 wraths, 3-4 cryptic, and 4 Path, with also fairly consistent draw spells (T2), permission (Knot, Remand), and X spells (Rev, Zenith, Secure the Wastes).
Is there currently such a shell in Esper draw-go? Or is this a time of flux where everyone is trying to figure out the deck again after the upheaval of the last few sets?
Jace unbanning + teferi printing + azcanta printing has changed how control decks are built to a large degree.
The most successful esper list in the dominaria up to modern horizons has been Zach Allen's SCG second place list.
The shard has seen a spike in popularity of lists based off of his, though its not really a draw-go list.
Most of us who've played the original list have been playing various in-between lists, some closer to the old ones and some to the new ones.
Horizons has shaken up the format a good deal, and the only thing I'm confident saying is that anyone saying confident things about control deck construction is unlikely to have the necessary data to back up that confidence.
So its definitely a flex time.
Jace and teferi, plus all the new WAR walkers are still popular and still powerful, but they definitely skew towards tapout control.
Archamge's charm and FoF out of horizons are two very decent options for maintaining value in a full draw-go deck though.
Definitely an interesting time to be a modern control player.
I'm not sure what your collection looks like, but if you have the budget, you might just try to pick any and all staples you've missed so you'll have to option to play whatever turns out to be best. If you don't, you'll probably want to wait atleast another few weeks to see the MC meta + the fallout, then jump in after that.
That's why I don't really have any suggestions for a core 60. That said, I could post my current approximate 75 if anyone is interested.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Drowned Catacomb
3x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Watery Grave
3x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Plains
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
Removal (13)
4x Path to Exile
3x Fatal Push
1x Detention Sphere
1x Kaya's Guile
4x Terminus
4x Opt
3x Esper Charm
2x Snapcaster Mage
Finishers (6)
1x Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Counters (8)
3x Force of Negation
2x Logic Knot
3x Cryptic Command
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Celestial Purge
2x Dovin's Veto
2x Rest in Peace
2x Spell Queller
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Timely Reinforcements
Well this is what I'd play in a tournament tomorrow. I think the mainboard Kaya's Guile is probably better than playing a Surgical Extraction mainboard, but I'm not sure. I also think that 4 Colonnade could be too many, but again, I'm not quite sure. Perhaps 3 is better. Finally, I'd prefer to fit a 2nd 4-mana Wrath in there somewhere for Humans, but I don't think I can cut anything. Queller is for a disruptive clock that is good against Burn/MonoR Pheonix.
If I were to play a list without Miracles, I'd be on this:
3x Celestial Colonnade
1x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Drowned Catacomb
3x Field of Ruin
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Watery Grave
3x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Plains
1x Snow-Covered Swamp
Removal (13)
4x Path to Exile
3x Fatal Push
1x Detention Sphere
2x Kaya's Guile
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Wrath of God
4x Esper Charm
2x Fact or Fiction
2x Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (5)
1x Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
2x Narset, Parter of Veils
2x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Counters (9)
3x Force of Negation
2x Logic Knot
1x Dovin's Veto
3x Cryptic Command
Finishers (1)
1x White Sun's Zenith
2x Celestial Purge
2x Dovin's Veto
2x Rest in Peace
2x Spell Queller
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Timely Reinforcements
FoF might be trash, but, again, I don't know and I don't really care. Assuming I can make it to FNM this friday, I'll play this list and let y'all know how it goes.
I could also see putting together a build with some Nihil Spellbombs perhaps.
PSA: Kaya's Guile's sac mode is NOT Blessed Alliance -- they sac ANY creature, not just attackers. I almost lost a game vs. Infect for that mistake.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I'm playing quasi-Draw Go version with 0 Esper Charms. I replaced some with new 3 mana planeswalkers at one point. Now, I've replaced with them 2 Force of Negation and 2 Archmage's Charm. I still have two Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and two Jace, the Mind Sculptor as my win cons. As SanityLost said, the biggest problem is actually just finishing the game. I tend to play very fast and somewhat more aggressive than I should in games 2 and 3 just to finish the match on time. That said, you have all the tools. It's really a matter of being familiar enough with your own list to figure out your specific plan of attack.
WUEsper ControlUB
WUCheeri0sRB
BArcane RemedyUBWBW Fateful HourWBBRSuicide ZooWGBRDredge From BelowGU"Reveal a Dragon"
This is a truth fact. However, I always found a spot for Anguished Unmaking, instead.