MTG Salvation

seems a bit much to call it a dumpster fire when basically zero pure draw go shells have posted results in the last few months. 7 spot removal spells, and 2 sweepers which you can follow up with haymaker walkers most of which affect the board and let you close out the game. souls being there to bridge the gap. sounds like a coherent gameplan to me.

in fact id argue that the 'do nothing and try to respond to everything' approach is where you dont wanna be right now.

I mean, you can say what you like about draw-go not being a good place, but all of the grixis and jeskai lists that have 5-0ed, or appeared, are fundamentally trying to answer everything. Maybe not to quite the same extent as esper, but they're still much, much more reactive than that list.
I will agree that for the most part, it is a coherent game plan, I just don't think its a good game plan. Trying to play lingering souls + planeswalkers is just not that good vs a majority of the top decks right now. (Humans, hollow one, bogles, burn, tron, storm, ponza, etc). Even decks like mardu, or U moon, that plan is medium at best against. Now, of course, thats not to say that the deck is bad against all of those matchups, but the planeswalker + souls package makes those matchups worse than instead playing more card advantage, discard, answers, etc.
A lot of the card choices I also don't agree with (a single mainboard ghostly prison is doing what, exactly? Splitting all of these planeswalkers 1/1/1/1, etc), but I can look past that (not the ghostly prison though), but I don't think the game plan is very effective at all.
If you absolutely wanted to be playing that many planeswalkers, I'd argue you almost have to play discard. You also definitely don't want that many cryptic commands. The list has only 24 lands, and its way too top heavy considering it how much it relies on board control.

well i honestly dont put much stock in 5-0 lists unless im seeing a specific build show up more than others over multiple postings. mostly though i was referring to esper, the historically worst performing control shell.

so you gotta ask yourself why UR, UW, jeskai, and grixis have all been able to dance the line between draw-go and tappout with moderate success but esper hasnt.

more tappout elements akin to UW but with souls and pushes to get you into the mid-game looks as promising as anything else. certainly as much so as these heavy esper charm lists which have yet to show up...anywhere.

Quote from Cody_X »

I mean, you can say what you like about draw-go not being a good place, but all of the grixis and jeskai lists that have 5-0ed, or appeared, are fundamentally trying to answer everything. Maybe not to quite the same extent as esper, but they're still much, much more reactive than that list.
I will agree that for the most part, it is a coherent game plan, I just don't think its a good game plan. Trying to play lingering souls + planeswalkers is just not that good vs a majority of the top decks right now. (Humans, hollow one, bogles, burn, tron, storm, ponza, etc). Even decks like mardu, or U moon, that plan is medium at best against. Now, of course, thats not to say that the deck is bad against all of those matchups, but the planeswalker + souls package makes those matchups worse than instead playing more card advantage, discard, answers, etc.
A lot of the card choices I also don't agree with (a single mainboard ghostly prison is doing what, exactly? Splitting all of these planeswalkers 1/1/1/1, etc), but I can look past that (not the ghostly prison though), but I don't think the game plan is very effective at all.
If you absolutely wanted to be playing that many planeswalkers, I'd argue you almost have to play discard. You also definitely don't want that many cryptic commands. The list has only 24 lands, and its way too top heavy considering it how much it relies on board control.

I must admit, I'm actually with tronix on this one. I can't even defend the claim that Draw-Go is even viable right now. UW, Grixis, and Jeskai are all successful in part due to the fact that they're more practive.

@tronix


As for the list, the Lingering Souls and Ghostly Prison seem a little loose to me. If you're playing Jura/Ally/Elspeth6, you're obviously not playing more than 1 of those, but, I'm skeptical that you need three win-con walkers (Elspeth, Jura, and Ally). 1/2 should be fine. Jace and lil' Gid don't count to me, since they both are mainly for card advantage or screwing with the board.

My suggestion would be this:
-3x Souls, -1x Ghostly Prison, -1x Gideon Jura --> +1 D-Sphere, +1 Remand/Negate/Leak (not sure which tbh), +1x Verdict, +1x Lil Gideon, +1x Secure the Wastes (maybe?)

Oh, and -1x Field of Ruin --> +1x Glacial Fortress for mana requirements.

Quote from tronix »

mostly though i was referring to esper, the historically worst performing control shell.

Actually, that would be Bant (or UG if we're including 2-color combos). Just sayin'

Btw, if anyone has a decent Bant list please send it to me. I love the idea of a Bant Control deck for some odd reason.

fair enough. bant and UG werent even on my radar lol. the thing with esper though is that the color combo has all the tools a control deck could possibly want, but it has always struggled to find lasting success. even with fatal push entering the equation and more recently with jace.

then again this is the 'esper draw-go' thread and not the 'esper control' thread, which doesnt even exist for some reason.

This thread was the esper control thread a while back. It was renamed.
The esper aggro-control thread is kind of just the dumping ground for everything else, but its pretty dead, barring occasional spurts of activity.

Ignoring UW's relatively recent success, all successful control decks in modern have played bolt, basically since the format's inception, despite periods of time in which bolt is not terribly well positioned. I'm frankly convinced that decks doing well are far more related to how many people are playing them than anything else. Obviously people tend to play the best decks, but if everyone playing blue is playing jeskai, then you'll see jeskai with the most results, regardless of whats actually the best positioned.


Anyways, as for bant lists, what specifically do you have in mind?
I've been vaguely interested in a more bant midrange deck (maybe mana dorks, maybe things like tireless tracker, obstinate baloth, maybe spell queller, probably planeswalkers like jace, maybe gideons/elspeths/nissas, not a very well formed idea yet). Maybe a more spell heavy, tap-out control version of this deck is better. I think nissa, vital force is underplayed in modern, given how much of a house she is in legacy, so my first step will be to play to her strengths.
In the past I played a glittering wish control deck. The mainboard was basically a UW shell (no planeswalkers, though I believe I did play spreading seas) with 4 glittering wish + 3 dramatic entrance. The sideboard included progentius, plus some random bullets (I think there was an empyreal archangel, a spell queller, a geist, a meddling mage, fracturing gust, probably other garbage), the idea being that you had a 2 card combo like breach/emrakul, but 1/2 the combo wasn't totally dead (since you could turn wishes into real cards if you needed).
The deck was ok. I'll try to find the exact list tomorrow if you really care.
I've played some more "standard" UWg lists as well, with stuff like explore + sphinx's revelation, or splashing green in those old UW midrange decks (the blade splicer + restoration angel ones) for stuff like thragtusk, eternal witness, or scooze).
Bant eternal command is kind of a thing I guess, but also more on the midrange side.
You may or may not be familiar with the UGw decks that were bouncing around MTGO right after the jace unban, though given how sharply those dropped off, I think its pretty apparent they weren't really all that good.
As I mentioned above, I intend to start trying bant shells at some point soon, some more midrangey, maybe some more controlling. If I end up with anything interesting, maybe I'll post it.

Quote from Cody_X »

Anyways, as for bant lists, what specifically do you have in mind?
I've been vaguely interested in a more bant midrange deck (maybe mana dorks, maybe things like tireless tracker, obstinate baloth, maybe spell queller, probably planeswalkers like jace, maybe gideons/elspeths/nissas, not a very well formed idea yet). Maybe a more spell heavy, tap-out control version of this deck is better. I think nissa, vital force is underplayed in modern, given how much of a house she is in legacy, so my first step will be to play to her strengths.
In the past I played a glittering wish control deck. The mainboard was basically a UW shell (no planeswalkers, though I believe I did play spreading seas) with 4 glittering wish + 3 dramatic entrance. The sideboard included progentius, plus some random bullets (I think there was an empyreal archangel, a spell queller, a geist, a meddling mage, fracturing gust, probably other garbage), the idea being that you had a 2 card combo like breach/emrakul, but 1/2 the combo wasn't totally dead (since you could turn wishes into real cards if you needed).
The deck was ok. I'll try to find the exact list tomorrow if you really care.
I've played some more "standard" UWg lists as well, with stuff like explore + sphinx's revelation, or splashing green in those old UW midrange decks (the blade splicer + restoration angel ones) for stuff like thragtusk, eternal witness, or scooze).
Bant eternal command is kind of a thing I guess, but also more on the midrange side.
You may or may not be familiar with the UGw decks that were bouncing around MTGO right after the jace unban, though given how sharply those dropped off, I think its pretty apparent they weren't really all that good.
As I mentioned above, I intend to start trying bant shells at some point soon, some more midrangey, maybe some more controlling. If I end up with anything interesting, maybe I'll post it.

I've just been interested in making the colors work in general. I've always thought Thragtusk was relatively unexplored as a Modern control card that stabilizes vs. Burn, generates a guaranteed 3-for-1 if it resolves, and passes literally every removal test. I've messed around with Augur of Bolas/Finks/Resto/Thragtusk builds that were good, but nothing super special. I've played around with ramp lists or list with a partial-ramp element (like Explore/Farseek/Search for Tomorrow) but they topdeck like hot garbage and get some really ugly opening hands like 3/4 lands, 2 ramp spells, and 1 relevant spell (literally just dies to any discard spell) or a few lands and multiple ramp payoffs with nothing to do early.

As for Glittering Wish, I've tried the card before and I can honestly say I hate it. It's so damn slow, exiles itself, and a Sorcery. I've made UWg Wish lists and won more games with the UW part of the deck while losing to the "Wish" part of it. Dramatic Entrance is cool, but I don't think it's worth playing dead mainboard cards in the already-solid UW Shell. Perhaps I'm testing the wrong colors for Entrance (maybe Sultai could be good?), but the point is to play Bant. =D

Regardless, I think this is already more non-Esper discussion than needed on this thread. If anyone wants to chat about Bant, just pm me.

Regarding the new dominaria set: what do you guys think of Teferi, Hero of Dominaria? His + ability seems good for keeping up counters, the -3 for removing other planeswalkers etc., his ultimate is definitely gamewinning. I might give it a try!

Personally I don't think the new teferi is ever going to be better than gideon jura. Of course the idea with teferi is that he draws you a card and immediately lets you hold up a 2cmc spell to protect him. But he feels too weak when playing him into a board you don't already have control over.

See, I have the exact opposite impression of teferi. What's interesting to me is that unlike jace, you can cast him into a board you're behind on and he isn't terrible. He and jace both deal with a single threat for a single turn when they come down if you're almost there. If you're a little more behind, jace comes down, doesn't help you interact, and then maybe you untap with him at one and hope to find what you need to protect him. This is where the two cards are very different--jace is better if he survives but he doesn't help you claw to stabilization if he's under pressure.

Teferi actually helps you claw to stabilization under pressure because he rewards you with extra cards and mana.

Just want to talk about Jace a bit : he hasn't been life changing for me so far. He's good, in fact he's great, but not amazing. I mean, against Burn, I'm not a fan of it and sometimes against combo, fatesealing isn't the best when their hand is full and I don't know what they search for. I've been on 1 since the unbans and 2 felt a bit too much. I don't know if I'm alone in that situation, but I feel that 4 mana on turn 4-5 that doesn't win or directly disrupt the opoonent's plan isn't where we want to be. Were not tappout control, so I think Jace might have messed us up a bit like Cody said a couple of pages ago.

I know it may not be EXACTLY the right place but I'm not quite sure where to discuss this. Has anyone seen the list that won the challenge today? Esper Gifts. Jammed a few games with it today, and I must say... deck is hot. Regardless of that, here is the list.

Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (4)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Snapcaster Mage
Sorcery (10)
1 Collective Brutality
2 Lingering Souls
4 Serum Visions
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Unburial Rites
1 Wrath of God
Instant (17)
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Cryptic Command
3 Fatal Push
3 Gifts Ungiven
2 Logic Knot
2 Mana Leak
1 Opt
4 Path to Exile
Enchantment (2)
2 Search for Azcanta
Land (24)
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
Legendary planeswalker (1)
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria

oh, I almost forgot the board

Sideboard (15)
2 Celestial Purge 2 Damping Sphere 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Inquisition of Kozilek 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria 1 Negate 2 Nihil Spellbomb 1 Settle the Wreckage 2 Thoughtseize 2 Timely Reinforcements

Quote from TomCourtenay »

Just want to talk about Jace a bit : he hasn't been life changing for me so far. He's good, in fact he's great, but not amazing. I mean, against Burn, I'm not a fan of it and sometimes against combo, fatesealing isn't the best when their hand is full and I don't know what they search for. I've been on 1 since the unbans and 2 felt a bit too much. I don't know if I'm alone in that situation, but I feel that 4 mana on turn 4-5 that doesn't win or directly disrupt the opoonent's plan isn't where we want to be. Were not tappout control, so I think Jace might have messed us up a bit like Cody said a couple of pages ago.

I almost never cast jace on T4; most of the time when I do, it feels like a desperation play. I feel much better about jace further down, maybe turns 7-10, as the nail in the coffin to an otherwise even position. That's part of why I really want to jam some Teferi--I think he might actually be better at that time range than jace because he can actually answer a threat while jace just unsummons it.

I actually agree about that : when I cast him turn 4-5, it's either I'm golden or desperate. Turn 7-10 is when I'm pulling ahead. I've tweaked my list recentrly and it feels really solid, having 3-1 and 2-1 records in last events this week.



I'd love to add maybe a Teferi, Hero of Dominaria for either the Clique or the 2nd Rev. I really think that Jace is not at it's best in the Modern environnement, it shines in Legacy but here, it's either busted or ok (in Legacy, he's almost always busted because of the quality of the cards to protect him). So Teferi might help us grind it out a bit more. The +1 is really the upside for me right now.

Hea Tom, I was wondering why'd you play IoK over thoughtseize, is the life loss that relevant in your meta? I even think that Jace could be completely cut from Esper as his impact here is not that great. For me, a well played Elspeth is worth more.

Quote from Jeltsinn »

Hea Tom, I was wondering why'd you play IoK over thoughtseize, is the life loss that relevant in your meta? I even think that Jace could be completely cut from Esper as his impact here is not that great. For me, a well played Elspeth is worth more.

Yes, I have a ton of Burn in my meta. The lifeloss is pretty relevant to me, because most of the times, I run into decks that have mostly relevant cards under 3 CMC. Going to 17 and getting a swamp on turn 1 is rough, it's just suicide when fetching and shocking on the play and seeing that I'm facing Burn. So Affinity, Storm, Burn, Tron, Living End, UW Control, etc. can be handled with Inquisition mostly.

On another note, I changed Think Twice for Opt to get more velocity and less raw card power : it worked well. I also played a bunch of games against Burn to playtest with my wife and went 0-2 preboard and 2-3 postboard. I was getting frustrated with how I could handle the Burn matchup, so I figured a sideboarding plan after all :
-2 Supreme Verdict.
-3 Cryptic Command.
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
+1 Timely Reinforcement.
+2 Blessed Alliance.
+2 Dispel.
+1 Negate.

It's manageable so far, but could be better. I think I could pilot the deck better maybe, but most of the times, I'm doing the best of the situation (I try different lines of play with my wife to see what I could have done better to win and it almost never works out for me )

Cheers!

Burn is not the best matchup for esper. It depends a lot on your build (whether or not you have leylines, how much cheap countermagic you have, if you have something like BSA, etc).
The matchup revolves kind of a lot around esper charm, and whether or not they can deal critical amount of damage by around turn 4. Generally speaking, if you can stabilize at a relatively healthy life total, and keep their hand moderately empty, you should be able to eventually get there.

Your list is not very well positioned against burn though, so if you really don't like your burn matchup, I would suggest making changes.
Not trying to be rude, but I'd never play the list you most recently posted. There are just way too many things I disagree with, many of which are going to hurt you in matchups like burn, humans, etc.
I would also board differently if I were committed to not changing the list.
Think twice is not very good in the matchup, and fatal push, as well as iok should both come in. I personally would also like to leave in the jace if possible.

Quote from Cody_X »

Burn is not the best matchup for esper. It depends a lot on your build (whether or not you have leylines, how much cheap countermagic you have, if you have something like BSA, etc).
The matchup revolves kind of a lot around esper charm, and whether or not they can deal critical amount of damage by around turn 4. Generally speaking, if you can stabilize at a relatively healthy life total, and keep their hand moderately empty, you should be able to eventually get there.

Your list is not very well positioned against burn though, so if you really don't like your burn matchup, I would suggest making changes.
Not trying to be rude, but I'd never play the list you most recently posted. There are just way too many things I disagree with, many of which are going to hurt you in matchups like burn, humans, etc.
I would also board differently if I were committed to not changing the list.
Think twice is not very good in the matchup, and fatal push, as well as iok should both come in. I personally would also like to leave in the jace if possible.

Thanks for the input Cody : not taking it personally by any means, I'm just curious about how to make it work better. I'm not the most experienced mage with Esper, but I have like 1 year of background, but I know most of you guys are hanging around here for a longer period of time, so I'd like to know what you would do or change?

I just updated the list recently and it got slightly better (I wrongly posted 2 Mana Leaks, I was playing 3 Logic Knot) :


I'm thinking about having 4 Leyline in the side, but I don't know what I would cut honestly. I thinkg I'd take out 2 Alliance and 1 Timely, but then I'd be totally dependant on Leyline in the opening hand.

Cheers!