Killing the opponent with Fateseals is how you win maybe 20% of games in Miracles, though. You can usually find Entreat the Angels faster than you can ultimate Jace. For the most part you never fateseal until they're either hellbent, your hand is loaded with answers, or you're scared of them having a Bolt. If they have 1 creature in play you would Unsummon; if they had 2 2/2's you could fateseal if you had no other play and not feel too bad about it. Playing Jace and leading with fateseal is basically worst-case scenario, but if you can manage to untap with him then it should pay off.
I don't know how much you've actually been able to play with the card yet, but most find that chaining Brainstorms is basically the whole point. Fateseal just kills them after you've already won the game. The way I look at it, Brainstorm + Fetch is on average the equivalent of drawing 2 cards. If your hand is stacked, maybe it's only an extra card, but when you shuffle away 2 you don't want it's basically Ancestral Recall.
Maybe my experience is different, but I've won a fair number of games with miracles by either ultimating jace, or fatesealing them many turns in a row threatening ult before they concede.
I usually play 1-2 entreats, jaces, and no other mainboard wincons though.
Sure leading with fateseal is kind of worst case, but I usually don't brainstorm that many times in a row before fatesealing if I have the option.
That being said, if you're playing a lot of discard spells, the brainstorm mode is kind of a trap. In theory it seems good because you can put back bad discard spells, but if you're playing discard you don't have piles of removal/counterspells (not like you would if you were not playing discard) which means you have to actually end the game. Realistically, you'll probably be happy if you can cast jace, put some garbage back, shuffle it away and immediately start plusing.
That being said, if you're playing a lot of discard spells, the brainstorm mode is kind of a trap. In theory it seems good because you can put back bad discard spells, but if you're playing discard you don't have piles of removal/counterspells (not like you would if you were not playing discard) which means you have to actually end the game. Realistically, you'll probably be happy if you can cast jace, put some garbage back, shuffle it away and immediately start plusing.
That makes sense, though it's somewhat of a testament to how awkward 8 discard spells w/o a pile of proactive threats is. If your late game is so terrible I'd want more permanents to slam.
Thats definitely where the experimentation comes in.
Trying to fine-tune a list like that is difficult for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
As amalek has said, starting with a lot of discard and expecting to drop some for countermagic is likely.
What permanents/threats to play (souls? cliques? geist? other walkers?) may matter a lot.
Assuming the deck is "perfected" or "balanced" or whatever word you want to use , it could be quite good, but getting there is easier said than done.
Are there any lists that use a combination of discard (IOK/TS) and counter magic? Would like to split it up
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EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
I have been having good results just treating JAce as an additional wincon, and not as the focal point of the deck. The raw power of our deck is something to be respected, and I feel as though Discard spells dilute that, while making our late game topdecks MUCH weaker. I would be willing to jam lingering souls in the deck, possibly in place of a counterspell or Wall of omens, as the card is very good at giving us time.
@draken - I would start with a 2/1 IoK Thoughtsieze split with 3-4 Commands, and 1-2 Logic Knot, with a flex slot for the meta (D stroke, spell snare, negate, etc.). For me personally, I prefer countermagic, as the deck has tools to deal with resolved threats and can, eventually slam a jace on an empty board and win at your leisure. It is very rare that something in the opp's hand is so powerful that we need it gone asap. I am convinced that turn 4 Jace is the wrong turn for Jace. HE is a turn 12 kind of guy.
Dismiss isn't modern legal.
There is not substitute for cryptic command, except maybe playing 1 copy of into the roil.
If you can't play cryptic command, play some 2 or 3 cmc counterspells and some more card draw in its place.
Bel said it's for casual usage and they don't care about the legality. The list is playing Swords to Plowshares too.
@Belecalen If you wanna DM me, that would be a more appropraite place to discuss your list -- this thread is for Modern decks! =D
This deck has a 19/16/12 split. We could do the same thing but with black replacing red. If you're not running 1-mana discard spells in the sideboard, I'd maybe go as low as 10 black sources.
Is it worth it to run a playset? Not a clue. You're probably weaker to Blood Moon with the lower basic counts, but it should be gas against Tron. I'd probably cut white down to 15 and black to 10 (plus Field of Ruin's minor fixing) to try and fit as many basics as possible.
I found I was never using Field of Ruin except for Tron so I cut it for more basics. I've really been liking that against Blood Moon decks, I think that is a big weakness of 3 colour control vs UW.
I love having both Search and Jace on the field at the same time, it feels like I can respond to anything anyone can do then.
Things:
Mainboard lifegain feels more important than ever. Cutting rev may just be a fact of life moving forward, but I strongly believe that blessed alliance in some number need to be present mainboard to make up for that.
Its possible we'll be better off with a 3 wrath, 4 path, ~2 push, ~2 alliance, heavy on the anti-creature and have to sideboard more counterspells like UW and jeskai do to make up for this.
Having our removal spells not go face definitely hurts here. Maybe our sheer card advantage makes up for this. Maybe not. Maybe 1 rev main (with jace + search and stuff to find it) is still worth while.
micarc: do you feel 4 snapcasters is too many? I never liked 4 in non-bolt decks, generally speaking. Definitely agree with you on the life gain.
Not to mention that the more scry effects like Serum and Azcanta, the fewer overall lands you need to run. For that reason, making WSZ worthwhile is much more difficult than making Secure.
Is your 5 fetchlands manabase for budget consideration ? Apart from the 2 godless shrine (i would rather see a second fountain), I do not find it horrible even if I am on 8 fetchlands myself.
Path and mana leak are not good friends. I would never play them together...
Esper charm is for me the only reason to play this deck. The card is sweet, especially when you get to know how to play it. I would never go lower than 4.
Anguished unmaking does not seem needed. It does not solve that many things game 1 apart from random artifacts or planeswalkers, which we can usually end up dealing in an other way. There are many better post-board options game 2 and 3, such as celestial purge for lili and chandra, engineered explosives for problematic artifacts, ... I also found that there is no need to have a dedicated answer to Jace in jace's deck. Just avoid to be buried in brainstorms and you will free some sideboard spaces for more problematic things.
Just my two cents
PS: is jace that needed ? at the MOCS, Corey Burkhart only ran one in its grixis (which is also a draw go style deck)...
Its worth noting that on MTGO, your opponent has the clock to worry about in a different way than paper. Simply doing something powerful, or getting ahead is often enough to get your opponent to concede, as they may value their clock time against blue decks.
Sure - Jace is nice. Do not get me wrong, I have tested one in my maindeck and I even won with him against burn for example since it is very easy to fateseal your way once you have stabilised. But - to remain draw go - I do not really see how you can put up to three copies of it in your maindeck.
One general thought I had lately is: can we go the "5c human" route and just make a draw go build with the best cards available ? pillar of the paruns is a card and I would so much like having access to cards like abrupt decay, kolaghan's command, lightning helix, etc... Has anyone ever tried this ? For those who fear blood moon, one nahiri main deck and 2 purge side should be enough to unlock the mana. My real fear would be field of ruins, which is well established in several control decks.
I have tried pillar decks in the past. Its ok.
The problem is that humans gets cavern, territory, and zigguraut, in addition to mana dorks and aether vial.
A pillar deck has pillar + reflecting pool, and thats it. Having to fill up the rest of your mana base with fetches/shocks/basics is ok, but if you're playing 24 lands, with 8 gold lands, ~7 fetches, ~5 shocks, and 4 basics, thats ok, but its not fantastic when you're in 4-5 colors. You don't have manlands this way either, which really hurts as well.
The fact that pillar doesn't even add colorless mana for snapcasters or mana leaks is really just the nail in the coffin as well. I tried urborg to help, but it causes as many problems as it fixes, and you're only going to be playing 1 in the deck, so its unreliable at best. If we had a blue urborg, it might be a different story though.
The fact that lingering souls (and similar cards) don't count as multicolored doesn't help either.
Blood moon felt ok given esper charms and abrupt decays, in addition to the couple of basics.
The next problem is that while you have a lot of removal, plus kommand/esper charm as value cards, you don't have good counterspells.
Cryptic command and logic knot are obviously difficult to cast as well.
The list I settled on was basically jeskai tempo with kommand and esper charm, because spell queller felt necessary (due to lack of counterspells) in addition to being strong with kommand.
On top of that, if you did want to commit to multi-colored draw-go, (maybe without pillar) you're probably going to end up in esper again.
Red cards are nice, but not amazing, and splashing a 4th color for helix won't end up saving you any life.
Another multi colored land could help a ton, but its still hard to say how viable it would make the deck. (Maybe a reverse thran quarry?)
Aether hub obviously has problems, glimmervoid obviously has problems (I tried a thopter-sword version with it), etc.
I still have yet to play enough with jace to really draw meaningful conclusions, and I'm currently moved away from draw-go, but it might just be the state of the format that tapping out is simply more rewarding.
While tap-out/softer control lists were more popular pre-jace (and that didn't stop this deck from existing) its hard to say if draw-go is still worthwhile at all anymore or not.
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I don't know how much you've actually been able to play with the card yet, but most find that chaining Brainstorms is basically the whole point. Fateseal just kills them after you've already won the game. The way I look at it, Brainstorm + Fetch is on average the equivalent of drawing 2 cards. If your hand is stacked, maybe it's only an extra card, but when you shuffle away 2 you don't want it's basically Ancestral Recall.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/963575#online
I usually play 1-2 entreats, jaces, and no other mainboard wincons though.
Sure leading with fateseal is kind of worst case, but I usually don't brainstorm that many times in a row before fatesealing if I have the option.
That being said, if you're playing a lot of discard spells, the brainstorm mode is kind of a trap. In theory it seems good because you can put back bad discard spells, but if you're playing discard you don't have piles of removal/counterspells (not like you would if you were not playing discard) which means you have to actually end the game. Realistically, you'll probably be happy if you can cast jace, put some garbage back, shuffle it away and immediately start plusing.
Trying to fine-tune a list like that is difficult for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
As amalek has said, starting with a lot of discard and expecting to drop some for countermagic is likely.
What permanents/threats to play (souls? cliques? geist? other walkers?) may matter a lot.
Assuming the deck is "perfected" or "balanced" or whatever word you want to use , it could be quite good, but getting there is easier said than done.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
@draken - I would start with a 2/1 IoK Thoughtsieze split with 3-4 Commands, and 1-2 Logic Knot, with a flex slot for the meta (D stroke, spell snare, negate, etc.). For me personally, I prefer countermagic, as the deck has tools to deal with resolved threats and can, eventually slam a jace on an empty board and win at your leisure. It is very rare that something in the opp's hand is so powerful that we need it gone asap. I am convinced that turn 4 Jace is the wrong turn for Jace. HE is a turn 12 kind of guy.
Bel said it's for casual usage and they don't care about the legality. The list is playing Swords to Plowshares too.
@Belecalen If you wanna DM me, that would be a more appropraite place to discuss your list -- this thread is for Modern decks! =D
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I haven't -- it's not like we can afford to play 4 of them, and we already play 6 basics. Even UW lists only play 7-8 basics, and they play 4 Fields.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/960061#online
This deck has a 19/16/12 split. We could do the same thing but with black replacing red. If you're not running 1-mana discard spells in the sideboard, I'd maybe go as low as 10 black sources.
Is it worth it to run a playset? Not a clue. You're probably weaker to Blood Moon with the lower basic counts, but it should be gas against Tron. I'd probably cut white down to 15 and black to 10 (plus Field of Ruin's minor fixing) to try and fit as many basics as possible.
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
3 Plains
2 Swamp
Permission (8):
3 Cryptic Command
2 Logic Knot
2 Negate
1 Mana Leak
2 Snapcaster Mage
Card Draw (11):
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Search for Azcanta
3 Esper Charm
4 Serum Visions
Removal (9):
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Blessed Alliance
4 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
Other (3):
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Runed Halo
1 Negate
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Dispel
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 Lingering Souls
I found I was never using Field of Ruin except for Tron so I cut it for more basics. I've really been liking that against Blood Moon decks, I think that is a big weakness of 3 colour control vs UW.
I love having both Search and Jace on the field at the same time, it feels like I can respond to anything anyone can do then.
How could I improve this version of the deck?
My Decks:
Mainboard lifegain feels more important than ever. Cutting rev may just be a fact of life moving forward, but I strongly believe that blessed alliance in some number need to be present mainboard to make up for that.
Its possible we'll be better off with a 3 wrath, 4 path, ~2 push, ~2 alliance, heavy on the anti-creature and have to sideboard more counterspells like UW and jeskai do to make up for this.
Having our removal spells not go face definitely hurts here. Maybe our sheer card advantage makes up for this. Maybe not. Maybe 1 rev main (with jace + search and stuff to find it) is still worth while.
micarc: do you feel 4 snapcasters is too many? I never liked 4 in non-bolt decks, generally speaking. Definitely agree with you on the life gain.
Here's my updated deck. I'll need to get another Snapcaster to make it work, since I currently only have 2. Online testing is running good.
4-1 today including Bloodbraid Jund.
Land (25):
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
3 Plains
2 Swamp
Permission (8):
3 Cryptic Command
2 Logic Knot
2 Negate
1 Mana Leak
3 Snapcaster Mage
Card Draw (10):
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Search for Azcanta
3 Esper Charm
4 Serum Visions
Removal (12):
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Blessed Alliance
4 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
Other (3):
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Runed Halo
1 Negate
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Dispel
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 Lingering Souls
My Decks:
Path and mana leak are not good friends. I would never play them together...
Esper charm is for me the only reason to play this deck. The card is sweet, especially when you get to know how to play it. I would never go lower than 4.
Anguished unmaking does not seem needed. It does not solve that many things game 1 apart from random artifacts or planeswalkers, which we can usually end up dealing in an other way. There are many better post-board options game 2 and 3, such as celestial purge for lili and chandra, engineered explosives for problematic artifacts, ... I also found that there is no need to have a dedicated answer to Jace in jace's deck. Just avoid to be buried in brainstorms and you will free some sideboard spaces for more problematic things.
Just my two cents
PS: is jace that needed ? at the MOCS, Corey Burkhart only ran one in its grixis (which is also a draw go style deck)...
One general thought I had lately is: can we go the "5c human" route and just make a draw go build with the best cards available ? pillar of the paruns is a card and I would so much like having access to cards like abrupt decay, kolaghan's command, lightning helix, etc... Has anyone ever tried this ? For those who fear blood moon, one nahiri main deck and 2 purge side should be enough to unlock the mana. My real fear would be field of ruins, which is well established in several control decks.
The problem is that humans gets cavern, territory, and zigguraut, in addition to mana dorks and aether vial.
A pillar deck has pillar + reflecting pool, and thats it. Having to fill up the rest of your mana base with fetches/shocks/basics is ok, but if you're playing 24 lands, with 8 gold lands, ~7 fetches, ~5 shocks, and 4 basics, thats ok, but its not fantastic when you're in 4-5 colors. You don't have manlands this way either, which really hurts as well.
The fact that pillar doesn't even add colorless mana for snapcasters or mana leaks is really just the nail in the coffin as well. I tried urborg to help, but it causes as many problems as it fixes, and you're only going to be playing 1 in the deck, so its unreliable at best. If we had a blue urborg, it might be a different story though.
The fact that lingering souls (and similar cards) don't count as multicolored doesn't help either.
Blood moon felt ok given esper charms and abrupt decays, in addition to the couple of basics.
The next problem is that while you have a lot of removal, plus kommand/esper charm as value cards, you don't have good counterspells.
Cryptic command and logic knot are obviously difficult to cast as well.
The list I settled on was basically jeskai tempo with kommand and esper charm, because spell queller felt necessary (due to lack of counterspells) in addition to being strong with kommand.
On top of that, if you did want to commit to multi-colored draw-go, (maybe without pillar) you're probably going to end up in esper again.
Red cards are nice, but not amazing, and splashing a 4th color for helix won't end up saving you any life.
Another multi colored land could help a ton, but its still hard to say how viable it would make the deck. (Maybe a reverse thran quarry?)
Aether hub obviously has problems, glimmervoid obviously has problems (I tried a thopter-sword version with it), etc.
I still have yet to play enough with jace to really draw meaningful conclusions, and I'm currently moved away from draw-go, but it might just be the state of the format that tapping out is simply more rewarding.
While tap-out/softer control lists were more popular pre-jace (and that didn't stop this deck from existing) its hard to say if draw-go is still worthwhile at all anymore or not.