I have been doing fine vs grixis shadow. Inherently, its a matchup we're quite good vs, and celestial purge hits every real threat they have.
I have kept think twice. There is some merit to serum visions, but I'm not sold. I like my card advantage.
The only cycle cards in our colors that I feel are relevant are cast out and cycling lands. Neither of them are complete shoe-ins though.
I remain with a classic 26 land, 2 ghost quarter build.
Ghost quarter is pretty good vs eldrazi tron (cavern + wreckage can be a beating), are decent vs grixis shadow (they tend to play ~6 real lands, and the ones that splash white for souls will almost never play 2 white sources). It still hits the same valakuts, manlands, gavony townships, etc, that it always has as well. The only reason to cut them, IMO, is the lower total land count, which is unnecessary, IMO.
I've tried different U builds to utilize spell pierce, and I think mana tithe is criminally underplayed right now (among other cards), but this deck does not want them.
I'm still on 3 snares. They hit snaps out of shadow, most of the important cards in hatebears/taxes, both combo pieces + other things out of company, as well as the same old goyf, flayer, bob, affinity.dec, half of burn, half of merfolk, many of dredge's spells (loam, reunion, brutality, etc) both dudes out of storm, as well as many other important spells (echoing truth for one).
Many people have been cutting them, but I'm still reasonably happy.
As wafo said at GP Lille (about AV, admittedly, but it still holds true) the deck can win with one dead card in the early-mid game.
I've thought about playing a much more "meta-gamed" list, something to the tune of:
Deprive isn't where we want to be. We want to hit all of our lands drops, not backtrack.
I play 2 GQ still, no spell snares (can't bring myself to play it over 3 Logic Knots OR 2 negates) and honestly I feel like it's about as tuned as it can be.
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Its not a regular draw-go deck. I don't care about my land drops nearly as much, and being able to hard counter creatures on t2 while not having a dead card late is important. Its not perfect, but its probably better than anything else.
I'm trying to get back into MTG again. There's a GP or SCG of some flavor near me in the fall I want to say. I intend to start practicing now.
Questions:
1) How have people been doing against Grixis Death's Shadow?
2) Who has been cutting Think Twice? Who has been running Serum Visions?
3) Have any Cycle cards from the new sets stood out?
4) How many lands have you been running?
5) Have people cut down on Ghost Quarters?
6) Has anyone tried Spell Pierce to combat all the low land count decks?
7) Where are people at on Spell Snare?
I played one small tournament. Got run over by humans. Hatebears is also gaining quite a bit of popularity. Fatal Push is practically worthless against Eldrazi. I feel like if there's a world in which you run the full playset of board wipes, or maybe even 5, we're in it. I'm also crazy on the idea of packing multiple Dispels in the SB to combat DS and CoCo decks. Maybe even Spell Pierce since their land counts are so low.
1) Grixis Shadow is a good matchup due to the mostly unconditional removal that we have -- especially Verdict, which is both unconditional and uncounterable. Be wary of Liliana, the Last Hope out of their sideboard tho.
2) I don't know who all has been cutting TT, but I gravitate towards playing it. I've been testing more with Serum, and it's not bad but it takes getting used to. The lines are warped with the addition of a 1-mana Sorcery, but it may prove to be worth it. Still, if I played in anything major right now, prolly either 4 TT or 2 TT and 3/4 Serum. Definitely would not cut it.
3) Hieroglyphic Illumination is OK, but doesn't really see any play. Censor is cropping up as a 1-of occassionally in UWR Draw-Go lists, don't reccommend it. Cast Out is good.
4) 26 without Serum, 25 with Serum.
5) Short answer, yes.
6) I'm not really a fan of Pierce, tbh, but I've had decent results with a few Leaks online actually (XMage).
7) amalek0 is on Snares I think, not sure who else. I'm not playing any, and it's affected my Burn/Affinity matchup, but I actually think my BGx matchup got BETTER without it -- they see it with discard and strand it in your hand, so now that I'm pretty much playing Pushes instead, it's much better in those matches. I do miss having some of them for Snapcaster decks too, though. There's just not enough room for them.
I've been on 4 mb Verdict for quite a while, so I would agree. I also think 2 Dispels is the sweet spot -- the only issue is having enough spots to devote to Dredge, Tron, Eldrazi (Bant and colorless), and still have the usual stuff. You basically have to pick a matchup to concede. =\
I think Teachings is good even if your opponent isn't splashing around. Better than Cryptic Command atm!
Cryptic was quite good in control back in the days when people actually played some reasonably expensive threats; Twin, Scapeshift, Huntmaster/Olivia/Chandra, Siege Rhino, Restoration Angel, Liliana OTV (you get the idea).
Now, though, it's really hard to think of a single tier 1 deck that Cryptic is actually good against. Burn, Affinity, Grixis Shadow, Eldrazi-Tron, Merfolk, Storm, Devoted Company - not really? I guess it's quite good vs RG Valakut & Abzan midrange?
for the most part though, all the premier threats in modern either cost 1/2 mana (Shadow/Angler/Tasi/Guide/Eidolon/Plating/Baral) or get accelerated out by Sol Lands (Thought-Knot, Smasher), or, occasionally, are cast via Cavern of Souls (again the Eldrazi, also Death & Taxes). Sooo...where are you getting your Cryptic value?
I understand Cryptic in Faeries or the Japanese 4-of-everything Spell Queller UWR list because there they get tons of value from the tap/draw mode when attacking, but we don't; it's just a fog. Fog + draw & Into the Roil are both reasonably strong cards but nowhere near modern playable.
Teachings has its faults, but at least a) it does catch you back up from behind on board by finding cheap more removal, which Cryptic doesn't really do, & b) it makes the sideboard games a lot better by reliably finding solid bombs. Vs Burn if you survive to turn 5 you WILL probably be able to get off a Rest for the Weary (much better than hoping to draw a Baneslayer & praying they don't have Skullcrack/Path). Vs Shadow if they resolve Lili TLH you should be able to find Purge or Anguished Unmaking quite easily. vs Affinity/Lantern then Fracturing Gust will get you there. It's a shame Elspeth doesn't have flash, but hey ho, you can't have everything
I've found that so long as you overload on early spot removal (Path/Push/Snare), then you can handle the early game just fine, & can comfortably afford to take a turn off to get Teachings going. The problem with the more stock lists is twofold imo; 1 there isn't a lot of early spot removal so a few too many games become Verdict or bust and b) you can handle the early game, handle the midgame, and still flood out/draw air & lose - you actually have to find that Rev or Zenith/Secure at some point just by drawing into them. Moreoever those cards themselves are HORRIBLE in the early game, so you need to draw them, but draw them too early & you've basically mulliganed (especially Zenith/Rev). Teachings means you can both play fewer copies of these big X spells, but also that you basically always have access to them when you want
Despite all of the upsides you pointed out, which sound nice on paper, Teachings is just too slow/inefficient at what it does. Since it's 4 mana (at least) and doesn't impact the board, by definition you're always putting yourself behind to cast it -- a whole turn behind sometimes in the early game. I think that if you want something to solve the problems you were mentioning, Serum Visions is a better choice than Teachings -- yes, it doesn't do the same thing, but Teachings is basically a giant card-filtering card and Serum is a very sleek card-filtering cantrip. The reason Cryptic is still playable is because it's board-impacting no matter how you paint it (well, I guess tap-drawing is more clock-impacting than board-impacting, but whatever).
(edit; this last bit is why I think everyone playing any kind of control deck is much better off with Secure over Zenith; it's just so much better in your opening hand, & honestly the fact it doesn't shuffle back in is probably a strength not a weakness, cuz of Snapcaster. Even Wafo-Tapa's Jeskai lists play Secure now. The card has massively overperformed for me; I've become a real convert having not believed in it for ages)
Except Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace are literally everywhere. Nihil Spellbomb out of Grixis Shadow, Relic of Progentius out of Tron/Eldrazi/Hatebears, and Leyline of the Void even out of some Jund decks. I really would prefer to play Secure over Zenith, honestly, but the grave hate at the moment is very heavy and I won't be caught on a build that heavily relies on Snapcaster.
I would typically mull that, but I mull more aggressively than most. 6 with a scry is typically just as good as a subpar 7, f not better. But it depends on how confident in mulling you usually are, and How well you shuffle too.
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Colonnade, Strand, Swamp, Island, Charm, Verdict, Command
Mull. I don't keep any hand that doesn't interact in the first 3 turns because Cryptic/Verdict are barely cards without earlier interaction. E-Charm doesn't count either. If it had a Think Twice over any card, I'd prolly keep because the likelihood is that you draw into interaction before T3, but it's still a poor hand.
On a real note, how do you guys feel about 4 leyline of the void in SB?
A lot of the 5-0 decks on mtgo are running with it, stops living end, dredge, Grixis DS, storm, and random BGx decks playing both goyf and grim flayer.
I play 2 currently, im thinking +2 more over some other cards is doable. I'm not really needing runed halo as much these days, I love the card so damn much but I feel like I've gotten to a point where I know my MUs well enough that I don't run them out very much until I've gotten control established.
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Questions:
1) How have people been doing against Grixis Death's Shadow? It's as favorable as it could be considering the deck has 6-12 Thoughtseizes
2) Who has been cutting Think Twice? Who has been running Serum Visions? I don't think anyone actually cuts Think Twice. Most people just run both
3) Have any Cycle cards from the new sets stood out?
4) How many lands have you been running? 24 with 4x Serum Visions
5) Have people cut down on Ghost Quarters?
6) Has anyone tried Spell Pierce to combat all the low land count decks? Low floor, high ceiling. Collected Company is the only matchup where I'd want the card over Negate
7) Where are people at on Spell Snare? Same as above. Every deck has a few targets, but it's not 2014 where it hits the key threats of 60% of the Tier 1 decks.
Colonnade, Strand, Swamp, Island, Charm, Verdict, Command
Keep. Turn 4 Verdict on the play covers the decent draws of the majority of popular decks. They can replay a second threat on the following turn, but you shouldn't be too far behind after just 3 turns.
There's also a 25% chance it's just Death's Shadow, which means all your s*** is getting Thoughtseized and you're playing off the top of your deck regardless. Though I guess they could draw creature-heavy and only have to take the Verdict.
@rafiqedh: Hey, and welcome to the thread! Please note that this is the "developing competetive" part of the forum, and this thread is dedicated to the deck "esper draw-go". Even though your deck runs most of our core, it doesnt really play like our deck. While we don't mind theorycrafting, or discussing sacred cows, we really like it when new people read up on the thread. (Also, decks that are only "sort-of" esper draw-go, like "red esper" or epser teachings etc, arent really that interesting to read about for those of us playing the stock list) We usually find ourselves defending our core every few pages, from new players inexperienced in piloting our deck. There is also a primer, thats mostly still relevant. You will find that your card-choices have been discussed (to death) in this thread, so there is certainly a lot of relevant info for you here!
This list is something I've been working on for about a month solidly, I was playing the "Stock" Esper Control list about a year ago, before switching to USA to fight Eldrazi Winter, Then after the banning went back to Esper Control this time adding in Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek as well as support pieces like, Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins to the main as well as another copy of EE in the board. With Thopter Sword in the deck my win-rate with the deck increased so much so as winning a GPT beating Infect in the finals, Coming in second at a following GPT losing to the mirror that also had Tron Lands and Crucible Of Worlds and proceeded to lock me out with Ghost Quarter. I then played in PA State Championship and finished top 16 of 82... Later that year I took it to GP Charlotte 2016 and finished Day 1 5-4, not bad for a "bad deck" and my very first GP experience. After this, what I felt was a failed deck, I switched to Grixis Control. Then I left Magic earlier this year and am now coming back. With my first love Esper Control W/Thopter Sword combo included. I would like to hear the feedback on this deck. And if any of you fine gentlemen/ladies would make any changes. So far in my online testing I have yet to lose to DS of any flavor, UW Control, Tron, Company.dec, or Eldrazi of any flavor. Of course I take this with a grain of salt as most pilots online aren't top level and also this deck isn't a known quantity as most people forgot Thopter Sword was even a combo... I'd love to hear questions and ideas about my deck... Please please Drill me and tear this list apart! I want to make it as best as I can and would love it if you guys even tested it out to see how it feels to play and give me some feedback. Thanks!
I think the problem is less about whether or not the pure "Draw-Go" deck is good or not, but rather that there is a place for everything. There are other threads that discuss each different flavors of decks and it is better that way. If you want to read about draw-go Esper, you come here. If you want to read about Jund, you go there. If you want to read about midrange Esper, you go to the thread for that. It is a lot easier on everyone if discussion is organized and not all muddled together so readers can find the information they want quickly. Imagine if a library threw organization to the wind, it would be chaos.
I have kept think twice. There is some merit to serum visions, but I'm not sold. I like my card advantage.
The only cycle cards in our colors that I feel are relevant are cast out and cycling lands. Neither of them are complete shoe-ins though.
I remain with a classic 26 land, 2 ghost quarter build.
Ghost quarter is pretty good vs eldrazi tron (cavern + wreckage can be a beating), are decent vs grixis shadow (they tend to play ~6 real lands, and the ones that splash white for souls will almost never play 2 white sources). It still hits the same valakuts, manlands, gavony townships, etc, that it always has as well. The only reason to cut them, IMO, is the lower total land count, which is unnecessary, IMO.
I've tried different U builds to utilize spell pierce, and I think mana tithe is criminally underplayed right now (among other cards), but this deck does not want them.
I'm still on 3 snares. They hit snaps out of shadow, most of the important cards in hatebears/taxes, both combo pieces + other things out of company, as well as the same old goyf, flayer, bob, affinity.dec, half of burn, half of merfolk, many of dredge's spells (loam, reunion, brutality, etc) both dudes out of storm, as well as many other important spells (echoing truth for one).
Many people have been cutting them, but I'm still reasonably happy.
As wafo said at GP Lille (about AV, admittedly, but it still holds true) the deck can win with one dead card in the early-mid game.
I've thought about playing a much more "meta-gamed" list, something to the tune of:
2 Gideon of the Trials
2 Secure the Wastes
4 Esper Charm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Serum Visions
4 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Deprive
1 Irrigated Farmland
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Ghost Quarter
Not all that convinced its better (barring playing against a couple of decks only)
I play 2 GQ still, no spell snares (can't bring myself to play it over 3 Logic Knots OR 2 negates) and honestly I feel like it's about as tuned as it can be.
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1) Grixis Shadow is a good matchup due to the mostly unconditional removal that we have -- especially Verdict, which is both unconditional and uncounterable. Be wary of Liliana, the Last Hope out of their sideboard tho.
2) I don't know who all has been cutting TT, but I gravitate towards playing it. I've been testing more with Serum, and it's not bad but it takes getting used to. The lines are warped with the addition of a 1-mana Sorcery, but it may prove to be worth it. Still, if I played in anything major right now, prolly either 4 TT or 2 TT and 3/4 Serum. Definitely would not cut it.
3) Hieroglyphic Illumination is OK, but doesn't really see any play. Censor is cropping up as a 1-of occassionally in UWR Draw-Go lists, don't reccommend it. Cast Out is good.
4) 26 without Serum, 25 with Serum.
5) Short answer, yes.
6) I'm not really a fan of Pierce, tbh, but I've had decent results with a few Leaks online actually (XMage).
7) amalek0 is on Snares I think, not sure who else. I'm not playing any, and it's affected my Burn/Affinity matchup, but I actually think my BGx matchup got BETTER without it -- they see it with discard and strand it in your hand, so now that I'm pretty much playing Pushes instead, it's much better in those matches. I do miss having some of them for Snapcaster decks too, though. There's just not enough room for them.
I've been on 4 mb Verdict for quite a while, so I would agree. I also think 2 Dispels is the sweet spot -- the only issue is having enough spots to devote to Dredge, Tron, Eldrazi (Bant and colorless), and still have the usual stuff. You basically have to pick a matchup to concede. =\
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Except Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace are literally everywhere. Nihil Spellbomb out of Grixis Shadow, Relic of Progentius out of Tron/Eldrazi/Hatebears, and Leyline of the Void even out of some Jund decks. I really would prefer to play Secure over Zenith, honestly, but the grave hate at the moment is very heavy and I won't be caught on a build that heavily relies on Snapcaster.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
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On the play against an unknown opponent.
Colonnade, Strand, Swamp, Island, Charm, Verdict, Command
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Mull. I don't keep any hand that doesn't interact in the first 3 turns because Cryptic/Verdict are barely cards without earlier interaction. E-Charm doesn't count either. If it had a Think Twice over any card, I'd prolly keep because the likelihood is that you draw into interaction before T3, but it's still a poor hand.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Definitely a hand thats not exactly bad, but its just too greedy to keep a hand like that.
A lot of the 5-0 decks on mtgo are running with it, stops living end, dredge, Grixis DS, storm, and random BGx decks playing both goyf and grim flayer.
I play 2 currently, im thinking +2 more over some other cards is doable. I'm not really needing runed halo as much these days, I love the card so damn much but I feel like I've gotten to a point where I know my MUs well enough that I don't run them out very much until I've gotten control established.
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Keep. Turn 4 Verdict on the play covers the decent draws of the majority of popular decks. They can replay a second threat on the following turn, but you shouldn't be too far behind after just 3 turns.
There's also a 25% chance it's just Death's Shadow, which means all your s*** is getting Thoughtseized and you're playing off the top of your deck regardless. Though I guess they could draw creature-heavy and only have to take the Verdict.
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We prefer to discuss Draw-Go Control lists here, as there is another thread for Esper Midrange. I would link to it for you, but I'm on mobile.
Edit: Found a computer: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/579970-buw-aggro-control-esper-midrange?page=25
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Esper Thopter Control
4 Esper charm
4 Cryptic Command
4 Think Twice
4 Path To Exile
3 Remand
2 Muddle The Mixture
2 Fatal Push
1 Secure The Wastes
1 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Artifact
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Sorceries
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
24 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Watery Grave
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Swamp
1 Tolaria West
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Duress
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Rest In Peace
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Celestial Purge
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Disenchant
1 Dispel
This list is something I've been working on for about a month solidly, I was playing the "Stock" Esper Control list about a year ago, before switching to USA to fight Eldrazi Winter, Then after the banning went back to Esper Control this time adding in Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek as well as support pieces like, Engineered Explosives and Academy Ruins to the main as well as another copy of EE in the board. With Thopter Sword in the deck my win-rate with the deck increased so much so as winning a GPT beating Infect in the finals, Coming in second at a following GPT losing to the mirror that also had Tron Lands and Crucible Of Worlds and proceeded to lock me out with Ghost Quarter. I then played in PA State Championship and finished top 16 of 82... Later that year I took it to GP Charlotte 2016 and finished Day 1 5-4, not bad for a "bad deck" and my very first GP experience. After this, what I felt was a failed deck, I switched to Grixis Control. Then I left Magic earlier this year and am now coming back. With my first love Esper Control W/Thopter Sword combo included. I would like to hear the feedback on this deck. And if any of you fine gentlemen/ladies would make any changes. So far in my online testing I have yet to lose to DS of any flavor, UW Control, Tron, Company.dec, or Eldrazi of any flavor. Of course I take this with a grain of salt as most pilots online aren't top level and also this deck isn't a known quantity as most people forgot Thopter Sword was even a combo... I'd love to hear questions and ideas about my deck... Please please Drill me and tear this list apart! I want to make it as best as I can and would love it if you guys even tested it out to see how it feels to play and give me some feedback. Thanks!
-ECFIII
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