Strange, I've always considered that a good matchup. They can lucksack the double Violent Outburst and cast it back to back on turn 3, but otherwise their main chance is to Fulminator you off blue.
Granted, I've only played it once since they started running Ricochet Trap, and that guy had decided to not play Fulminator for some reason. Maybe Ricochet Trap makes the difference. I also imagine it's a different story if you don't have Cliques in your sideboard.
Yeah that's pretty strange in my experience Living End is basically unloseable. They line up very poorly against counter magic heavy decks--they get 3 or 4 chances to combo off and then their deck is done.
@Cipher they've had ricochet trap for a really long time and that guy without fulminator mages must have been on a budget because I can't imagine its even worth playing that deck without being able to randomly cheese wins via LD.
Kodie if you just want to hate them out Meddling Mage naming Living End will get them from 20 to 0 basically on its own--they will not board in creature removal vs control.
WRT to Red Mana I think there are definitely pluses to having cards in your deck that do direct damage. Not just racing, but also just having a less mana intensive way of interacting with resolved PWs is nice. Of course I'm interested in knowing how many games he won by surprise zapping DS players out of the game
Anyone else just really hate playing bolt when fatal push is more efficient? No? Just me? Alright...
Lol on a different note, I don't see how eletrolyze was good for him. Jund and Abzan *might* have been good candidates to Electrolyze, but in general their dudes are X/3 to X/5 around turn 3, and bolt is historically bad at dealing with goyf.
Am I missing something??
So I saw a video where they were talking to a guy playing a Jeskai list and they specifically asked him about why he had electrolyze. The guy's response was that for one it's great against coco decks, and also there are a lot of 4-5 toughness creatures that are played simply because they don't die to bolt so it's nice to have a cantrip that piggy-backs on your bolts to kill those creatures without two-for-one'ing yourself. I dunno how good 4 mana to kill Tasigur is, but I guess push doesn't hit Tasigur either so I dunno.
IMO, living end is a good matchup.
Sometimes they'll have multiple fulminator mages/avalanche riders, spirit guides, cascade spells, ricochet traps, etc, but thats the minority.
Rip, clique, thoughtseize, surgicals, and counterspells are all good against them, not to mention path, runed halo, and celestial purge all don't care about them reanimating their dudes.
Even wrathing them forces them to have to find more cascade spells.
Note that ricochet trap only redirects spells with a single target. Cryptic command with modes -counter living end and -bounce a land (or better yet, a beast within token) of theirs is not a legal target for ricochet trap to **** with.
As for electrolyze joining the party with bolts, its the same reason grim lavamancer is the best card U/R has against tasigur/TKS/etc, because it + bolt finishes everything off. Electrolyze costing three mana really hurts though.
That being said, being able to kill some dudes with it is the ideal scenario, but worse case, you can still take a chip off their face and cycle it away EOT. Its fallen from its glory days, but its still a relevant card.
Note that ricochet trap only redirects spells with a single target. Cryptic command with modes -counter living end and -bounce a land (or better yet, a beast within token) of theirs is not a legal target for ricochet trap to **** with.
Learn something new everyday. I had never thought to do that.
My knowledge of that has absolutely no bearing to trying to decide if swerve or redirect wass better as the U/R twin mirror-breaker tech (hint: its redirect).
Absolutely no bearing whatsoever
I guess I just played against the nuts Living End draws, T1 street wraith + Desert ceradon, T2 Fulminator Mage nuked a UW shock -> t3 cycle ceradon, EOT I charmed to draw 2 and he responded with violent Outburst and nuked my other UW source. Wasn't much of a game from there lol
Thoughts on how to give us more game against a heavily DS and Midrange field? I know they're both "good" MUs and I don't lose to them often, but it's so mentally taxing... just want a better plan than 2 Baneslayer to close out games lol
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Thoughts on how to give us more game against a heavily DS and Midrange field? I know they're both "good" MUs and I don't lose to them often, but it's so mentally taxing... just want a better plan than 2 Baneslayer to close out games lol
Not sure that one's solvable, my friend. They're just grindy, mentally taxing kinds of matchups. If you're talking about Jund Shadow, then Gideon Jura is an option, it you're talking about Grixis, then more Celestial Purges seems to help (hitting everything but Snapcaster). Other than that, it's just the nature of the matchup.
If it's against BGx Midgrange, then NoSB is great for Bobs/Souls (against Abzan) and planeswalkers always help, but then we have all of the other tools available to us in the main, really. I don't know if Relic of Progenitus is something I'd bring in against BGx, but I would never play RiP against them -- Knot, Snapcaster, and Think Twice are all very important; and I have mixed feelings about Leyline against their discard since drawing doubles is very very bad (which is funny because I once was a very vocal advocate of playing it). I've been told by numerous BGx opponents that the best tool I've ever played against them is Lingering Souls. *shrugs*
Thoughts on how to give us more game against a heavily DS and Midrange field? I know they're both "good" MUs and I don't lose to them often, but it's so mentally taxing... just want a better plan than 2 Baneslayer to close out games lol
You basically want spells that blank multiple threats. Cards like Gideon (Jura of of the Trials), Runed Halo, Grave Titan, Baneslayer (I wouldn't do it since it can die so easy), or apparently Torrential Gearhulk. As a general rule you only put spot removal in your sideboard if it deals with problem permanents that you automatically lose to. I'm not scared of Liliana so I wouldn't bother with Celestial Purge for example, but I already have 2x Detention Sphere coming in for UR Storm (frees you from multiple Blood Moon and Empty tokens) and Eldrazi Tron (remove resolved Chalice), so those can come in pretty easy.
Basically their low threat density is their chokepoint. Focus all of your sideboarding on blanking the threats. Why chump block for a few turns with Lingering Souls when you can turn of 1/3 of their creatures with a Runed Halo?
You basically want spells that blank multiple threats. Cards like Gideon (Jura of of the Trials), Runed Halo, Grave Titan, Baneslayer (I wouldn't do it since it can die so easy), or apparently Torrential Gearhulk. As a general rule you only put spot removal in your sideboard if it deals with problem permanents that you automatically lose to. I'm not scared of Liliana so I wouldn't bother with Celestial Purge for example, but I already have 2x Detention Sphere coming in for UR Storm (frees you from multiple Blood Moon and Empty tokens) and Eldrazi Tron (remove resolved Chalice), so those can come in pretty easy.
Basically their low threat density is their chokepoint. Focus all of your sideboarding on blanking the threats. Why chump block for a few turns with Lingering Souls when you can turn of 1/3 of their creatures with a Runed Halo?
Why would you play Sphere, but not Purge? Purge is both cheaper and instant speed, plus it works as a Snapcaster target if it gets discarded. You don't necessarily have to blank multiple threats if you just have enough removal and can resolve it. I cut Cryptics in the matchup as well (Stubborn Denial and Countersquall make it very embarrassing), so Liliana is definitely a problem.
You basically want spells that blank multiple threats. Cards like Gideon (Jura of of the Trials), Runed Halo, Grave Titan, Baneslayer (I wouldn't do it since it can die so easy), or apparently Torrential Gearhulk. As a general rule you only put spot removal in your sideboard if it deals with problem permanents that you automatically lose to. I'm not scared of Liliana so I wouldn't bother with Celestial Purge for example, but I already have 2x Detention Sphere coming in for UR Storm (frees you from multiple Blood Moon and Empty tokens) and Eldrazi Tron (remove resolved Chalice), so those can come in pretty easy.
Basically their low threat density is their chokepoint. Focus all of your sideboarding on blanking the threats. Why chump block for a few turns with Lingering Souls when you can turn of 1/3 of their creatures with a Runed Halo?
Why would you play Sphere, but not Purge? Purge is both cheaper and instant speed, plus it works as a Snapcaster target if it gets discarded. You don't necessarily have to blank multiple threats if you just have enough removal and can resolve it. I cut Cryptics in the matchup as well (Stubborn Denial and Countersquall make it very embarrassing), so Liliana is definitely a problem.
I'm not saying Detention Sphere is better than Purge against them, but Detention Sphere can deal with blowout scenarios in a lot of other matchups, which is why I'm running it. It's not just another 1-for1 answer like Purge is.
If I had Purge in my sideboard I'd bring it in obviously, but I just wouldn't sideboard that card in the first place.
When talking about sideboard cards doesn't really make sense to talk about Celestial Purge vs D-Sphere. Better to compare whole sideboard to whole sideboard.
Are there any super noticable cases where D-Sphere or EE is significantly better then other? (I know EE saves 1 mana on killing tokens...) I used to be in the "D-Sphere is unplayable" camp due to Abrupt Decay but now that card is on the decline.
I originally was playing Engineered Explosives, but Detention Sphere does the same thing while being more versatile. Major thing for me was hitting 2x Blood Moon as well as Empty tokens against Storm, but Esxplosives doesn't hit Tasigur, Thought Knot, Reality Smasher, etc. Like you mentioned, Everyone plays Grixis Shadow, so Abrupt Decay isn't much of a thing anymore.
I wasn't trying to say Sphere and Purge are the same type of card, just that Purge is a class of card I try to avoid when sideboarding. The only straight 1-for-1 I run in the sideboard is Dispel, and that's because it's the only card that does what it does: allowing you to play early sweeper while countering Company or a Revelation while countering Skullcrack. I did use to have Negate in it's place, but that was to address a shortage of countermagic against decks like Ad Naseum or Storm. I also have 2 copies of Ceremonious Rejection, which I've actually been considering trading for Baneslayer Angels for the same reason. The 1-for-1 in the sideboard is only worth it's weight if I think Chalice on turn 2 is going to completely blow me out.
I wasn't trying to say Sphere and Purge are the same type of card, just that Purge is a class of card I try to avoid when sideboarding. The only straight 1-for-1 I run in the sideboard is Dispel, and that's because it's the only card that does what it does: allowing you to play early sweeper while countering Company or a Revelation while countering Skullcrack. I did use to have Negate in it's place, but that was to address a shortage of countermagic against decks like Ad Naseum or Storm. I also have 2 copies of Ceremonious Rejection, which I've actually been considering trading for Baneslayer Angels for the same reason. The 1-for-1 in the sideboard is only worth it's weight if I think Chalice on turn 2 is going to completely blow me out.
Yeah I understand what you were saying, that part of my post was more directed at TheAnnihilator. I picked up a Batterskull recently that I didn't get as an Esper purchase, but atm I've got it in my board nonetheless. The fact that Baneslayer doesn't have vigilance kind of scares me vs burn, but I suspect the Angel is actually pretty good because odds are they don't have the skullcrack?
Also does ceremonious do anything vs a non tron deck? If not I'd rather just go all in and play the singleton Steam Vent for Crumble (and I don't even do that...) I guess it comes in vs affinity, but I can't imagine it's good enough there to justify it.
Rejection is good vs affinity, tron, and lantern, off the top of my head.
Its actually quite good against affinity, as snagging their t2 - 3 plays (especially on the draw) is really important, given that those plays are often plating, champion, or other such nonsense. Often times, they'll have enough mana sources that logic knot won't be effective either.
Against lantern, its pretty self-explanatory, IMO.
It depends on what effects you're interested in, and how your board is built. Objectively, its a very powerful and useful card.
That all being said, I do not play any, and have no burning desire to change that.
Yeah I understand what you were saying, that part of my post was more directed at TheAnnihilator. I picked up a Batterskull recently that I didn't get as an Esper purchase, but atm I've got it in my board nonetheless. The fact that Baneslayer doesn't have vigilance kind of scares me vs burn, but I suspect the Angel is actually pretty good because odds are they don't have the skullcrack?
Also does ceremonious do anything vs a non tron deck? If not I'd rather just go all in and play the singleton Steam Vent for Crumble (and I don't even do that...) I guess it comes in vs affinity, but I can't imagine it's good enough there to justify it.
Problem with Batterskull for me was always the lack of flying, vulnerability to removal, and small size.
1) Lack of Flying: Decks like Affinity can completely ignore Batterskull, since nearly every card in the deck has evasion. Some decks will actually chump block or sac/kill their blocker.
2) Vulnerability to Removal: Abrupt Decay isn't a thing anymore, but Fatal Push is. Both these cards get hit by Liliana, but if I was going to gamble on boarding one of these against Death's Shadow for the auto-win, I'd go with the one that blanks more of the removal that they leave in.
3) Small Size: Thought-Knot Seer trades. Reality Smasher, Tarmogoyf, Tasigur, Angler, Thrun, etc. all bulldoze Batterskull. It also can end up trading with a 1-drop + removal spell; first strike is a powerful thing.
You'd think it doesn't matter because you can keep bringing it back, but the last match I played with Batterskull in my deck was at a GP a few years back, where a Jund player Abrupt Decayed and Liliana'd the token twice, causing me to trade 13 mana for his 5.
In regards to Ceremonious Rejection, it does efficiently counter all of the blowout cards for 2 Tier 1 decks (Eldrazi & Affinity). I only added it because Eldrazi felt too random of a matchup, but it's definitely the first card on the chopping block for me. Magic Online just has so much Death's Shadow and Eldrazi that I want to make sure I'm killing both decks after sideboarding.
Not good enough, IMO.
Drawing two at instant speed is nice, but having to discard or return a land is simply too much of a drawback to replace think twice.
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Granted, I've only played it once since they started running Ricochet Trap, and that guy had decided to not play Fulminator for some reason. Maybe Ricochet Trap makes the difference. I also imagine it's a different story if you don't have Cliques in your sideboard.
@Cipher they've had ricochet trap for a really long time and that guy without fulminator mages must have been on a budget because I can't imagine its even worth playing that deck without being able to randomly cheese wins via LD.
Kodie if you just want to hate them out Meddling Mage naming Living End will get them from 20 to 0 basically on its own--they will not board in creature removal vs control.
WRT to Red Mana I think there are definitely pluses to having cards in your deck that do direct damage. Not just racing, but also just having a less mana intensive way of interacting with resolved PWs is nice. Of course I'm interested in knowing how many games he won by surprise zapping DS players out of the game
So I saw a video where they were talking to a guy playing a Jeskai list and they specifically asked him about why he had electrolyze. The guy's response was that for one it's great against coco decks, and also there are a lot of 4-5 toughness creatures that are played simply because they don't die to bolt so it's nice to have a cantrip that piggy-backs on your bolts to kill those creatures without two-for-one'ing yourself. I dunno how good 4 mana to kill Tasigur is, but I guess push doesn't hit Tasigur either so I dunno.
Sometimes they'll have multiple fulminator mages/avalanche riders, spirit guides, cascade spells, ricochet traps, etc, but thats the minority.
Rip, clique, thoughtseize, surgicals, and counterspells are all good against them, not to mention path, runed halo, and celestial purge all don't care about them reanimating their dudes.
Even wrathing them forces them to have to find more cascade spells.
Note that ricochet trap only redirects spells with a single target. Cryptic command with modes -counter living end and -bounce a land (or better yet, a beast within token) of theirs is not a legal target for ricochet trap to **** with.
As for electrolyze joining the party with bolts, its the same reason grim lavamancer is the best card U/R has against tasigur/TKS/etc, because it + bolt finishes everything off. Electrolyze costing three mana really hurts though.
That being said, being able to kill some dudes with it is the ideal scenario, but worse case, you can still take a chip off their face and cycle it away EOT. Its fallen from its glory days, but its still a relevant card.
Absolutely no bearing whatsoever
Thoughts on how to give us more game against a heavily DS and Midrange field? I know they're both "good" MUs and I don't lose to them often, but it's so mentally taxing... just want a better plan than 2 Baneslayer to close out games lol
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Not sure that one's solvable, my friend. They're just grindy, mentally taxing kinds of matchups. If you're talking about Jund Shadow, then Gideon Jura is an option, it you're talking about Grixis, then more Celestial Purges seems to help (hitting everything but Snapcaster). Other than that, it's just the nature of the matchup.
If it's against BGx Midgrange, then NoSB is great for Bobs/Souls (against Abzan) and planeswalkers always help, but then we have all of the other tools available to us in the main, really. I don't know if Relic of Progenitus is something I'd bring in against BGx, but I would never play RiP against them -- Knot, Snapcaster, and Think Twice are all very important; and I have mixed feelings about Leyline against their discard since drawing doubles is very very bad (which is funny because I once was a very vocal advocate of playing it). I've been told by numerous BGx opponents that the best tool I've ever played against them is Lingering Souls. *shrugs*
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
Basically their low threat density is their chokepoint. Focus all of your sideboarding on blanking the threats. Why chump block for a few turns with Lingering Souls when you can turn of 1/3 of their creatures with a Runed Halo?
Why would you play Sphere, but not Purge? Purge is both cheaper and instant speed, plus it works as a Snapcaster target if it gets discarded. You don't necessarily have to blank multiple threats if you just have enough removal and can resolve it. I cut Cryptics in the matchup as well (Stubborn Denial and Countersquall make it very embarrassing), so Liliana is definitely a problem.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
If I had Purge in my sideboard I'd bring it in obviously, but I just wouldn't sideboard that card in the first place.
Are there any super noticable cases where D-Sphere or EE is significantly better then other? (I know EE saves 1 mana on killing tokens...) I used to be in the "D-Sphere is unplayable" camp due to Abrupt Decay but now that card is on the decline.
I wasn't trying to say Sphere and Purge are the same type of card, just that Purge is a class of card I try to avoid when sideboarding. The only straight 1-for-1 I run in the sideboard is Dispel, and that's because it's the only card that does what it does: allowing you to play early sweeper while countering Company or a Revelation while countering Skullcrack. I did use to have Negate in it's place, but that was to address a shortage of countermagic against decks like Ad Naseum or Storm. I also have 2 copies of Ceremonious Rejection, which I've actually been considering trading for Baneslayer Angels for the same reason. The 1-for-1 in the sideboard is only worth it's weight if I think Chalice on turn 2 is going to completely blow me out.
Also guys, I'd like help sideboarding with my list, as I've been having some trouble against the following matchups:
- Grixis Shadow
- Dredge
- Death's Shadow Jund
- Abzan Midrange
- Eldrazi Tron
Also, if anyone has tips on what to change up in my SB to more attune it to the meta, it'd be much appreciated.3 Supreme Verdict
4x Cryptic Command
4x Esper Charm
3x Fatal Push
3x Logic Knot
2x Negate
4x Path to Exile
2x Secure the Wastes
2x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Think Twice
1x Drowned Catacomb
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
1x Celestial Purge
2x Dispel
1x Negate
2x Runed Halo
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Thoughtseize
1x Wrath of God
Thanks guys!
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
Yeah I understand what you were saying, that part of my post was more directed at TheAnnihilator. I picked up a Batterskull recently that I didn't get as an Esper purchase, but atm I've got it in my board nonetheless. The fact that Baneslayer doesn't have vigilance kind of scares me vs burn, but I suspect the Angel is actually pretty good because odds are they don't have the skullcrack?
Also does ceremonious do anything vs a non tron deck? If not I'd rather just go all in and play the singleton Steam Vent for Crumble (and I don't even do that...) I guess it comes in vs affinity, but I can't imagine it's good enough there to justify it.
Its actually quite good against affinity, as snagging their t2 - 3 plays (especially on the draw) is really important, given that those plays are often plating, champion, or other such nonsense. Often times, they'll have enough mana sources that logic knot won't be effective either.
Against lantern, its pretty self-explanatory, IMO.
It depends on what effects you're interested in, and how your board is built. Objectively, its a very powerful and useful card.
That all being said, I do not play any, and have no burning desire to change that.
1) Lack of Flying: Decks like Affinity can completely ignore Batterskull, since nearly every card in the deck has evasion. Some decks will actually chump block or sac/kill their blocker.
2) Vulnerability to Removal: Abrupt Decay isn't a thing anymore, but Fatal Push is. Both these cards get hit by Liliana, but if I was going to gamble on boarding one of these against Death's Shadow for the auto-win, I'd go with the one that blanks more of the removal that they leave in.
3) Small Size: Thought-Knot Seer trades. Reality Smasher, Tarmogoyf, Tasigur, Angler, Thrun, etc. all bulldoze Batterskull. It also can end up trading with a 1-drop + removal spell; first strike is a powerful thing.
You'd think it doesn't matter because you can keep bringing it back, but the last match I played with Batterskull in my deck was at a GP a few years back, where a Jund player Abrupt Decayed and Liliana'd the token twice, causing me to trade 13 mana for his 5.
In regards to Ceremonious Rejection, it does efficiently counter all of the blowout cards for 2 Tier 1 decks (Eldrazi & Affinity). I only added it because Eldrazi felt too random of a matchup, but it's definitely the first card on the chopping block for me. Magic Online just has so much Death's Shadow and Eldrazi that I want to make sure I'm killing both decks after sideboarding.
Esper Charm?
Drawing two at instant speed is nice, but having to discard or return a land is simply too much of a drawback to replace think twice.