MTG Salvation

Totally fine if you like it that way but it does not seem to be a draw go build.

On leylines in the sideboard (since someone asked), they are great against burn, heavy discard decks, most combo decks and lantern. Two seems the right number to me. You just need to consider if they are better than halo in a MU and see how many hexproof effects you want in a match up.

You don't have to play 100% instants for it to be draw go. Consume The Meek exists but we're all on Supreme Verdict. I don't think sorcery speed cantrips and draw turn the deck into tap out control. The average turn for my build is draw, land, cantrip/suspend av, pass while holding up answers/draw. Besides wraths, I'm never tapping out unless it seems like a good opportunity to play As Foretold.

So, really nitpicky question -- my friend who played Esper and 4-0d last week was talking to me about the mana base and he said he felt like the deck needed a Godless Shrine. We talked over the manabase and ultimately ended on how the deck can't really run more than, say, 4 non-blue mana sources. He suggested I cut a Plains. Any thoughts on that? Would you guys trim a plains in the stock manabase for a Shrine?

Quote from BloodyRabbit_01 »

I know that I want 20 sources of blue mana, in my 24 lands and full set of Serum Visions. So, I play 1 Godless Shrine, 1 Swamp and 2 Plains as my colorless sources of choice. And playing without Shrine is a mistake (I'm talking about Fatal Push versions of the deck, obv, and if yours is still the same the argument is also true for you).

If I had more lands (25-26) or more colorless lands (Ghost Quarter, Calciform Pools, Academy Ruins) then I would adjust my manabase to fit the twenty blue mana sources. If you're playing without Serum Visions, you probably want one more blue source, but you should also be on twentyfive-six lands. TBH, I would cut Ghost Quarters before the second Plains, because Blood Moon is becoming again a thing in the current metagame, where Shadow decks suffers the card a lot.

My manabase with a Godless Shrine:


21 blue, 18 white, 13 black, and a total of 5 non-blue (I don't think Mystic Gate counts as colorless with only 1 GQ, 1 Swamp for non U/W sources, but if I have those 2 and Gate, it's obviously an issue). I just don't like having so many non-blue sources. There's no chance I'm running without at least 1 GQ -- Academy Ruins, manlands, Gavony Township, etc. are just too popular and I'd actually prefer to play a 2nd -- so I'd rather play another Drowned Catacomb (for better black source count) or a 3rd Hallowed Fountain (for more fetchable lands) than the Shrine.

6 basics? I play 4 and feel fine even against blood moon.

Quote from kodieyost »

6 basics? I play 4 and feel fine even against blood moon.

6 Basics is actually the norm. The first ~4 (2x Island, 1x Plains, 1x Swamp) are for Blood Moon, the next 2 (Island, Plains) are for keeping fetches live through the late game, meeting color requirements, safeguarding even more against Moon, and not taking more damage than necessary. More shocks would be inefficient with life total, none of the other duals are really playable, and they need to fetchable (as in, no buddy lands).

Quote from BloodyRabbit_01 »

21 blue, 18 white, 13 black, and a total of 5 non-blue (I don't think Mystic Gate counts as colorless with only 1 GQ, 1 Swamp for non U/W sources, but if I have those 2 and Gate, it's obviously an issue). I just don't like having so many non-blue sources. There's no chance I'm running without at least 1 GQ -- Academy Ruins, manlands, Gavony Township, etc. are just too popular and I'd actually prefer to play a 2nd -- so I'd rather play another Drowned Catacomb (for better black source count) or a 3rd Hallowed Fountain (for more fetchable lands) than the Shrine.

I'm perfectly fine with this manabase. I don't really see any color-issue.

6 basics? I play 4 and feel fine even against blood moon.

Four is two basics less than a "Blood Moon proof" manabase.

Yea, but it doesn't feel right. Not enough blue sources in-game.

All you need for blood moon is 1 of each. Esper charm. Lol

I guess my life total usually isn't game-ending to the tune of 4 life (2 shocks extra) but I actually play same # of shocks, I play 2 check duals (1 drowned catacomb 1 glacial fortress) and 2 GQ

In a 26 land deck you can afford to play more basics, but you can't play 6 basics in 24 land deck. 8 fetches and 4 basics is enough to minimize the effects of Blood Moon when casted fairly (you're not going to beat a T2 Blood Moon on the play very often even with 8 fetches and 6 basics) without hurting your color requirements. Mana bases are also determined by the cards you're playing. If you play 4 Fatal Pushes (like I do), your mana is going to be quite different than someone else who doesn't want or need T1 untapped black source. So for me, I play more T1 untapped black sources than everyone here (8 fetches, 2 Watery Graves, 1 Godless Shrine, 1 Swamp...ideally I want 1 more, but can't really afford it) and conversely, I play more Mystic Gates than everyone here, not only because I play 2 Gideon's, but it is also clutch for Supreme Verdict and Cryptic Command.

This is why I don't like mana-base conversations with no contexts.

Edit: My *3rd* "Island" in my deck is an Oboro, Palace in the Clouds for Fatal Push. Things like that you can't really discuss without discussing your pile.

There's no way you're finding the right combo of basics with 2 extra basics on the draw. Just isn't the argument to make lol

I want the sunken ruins but haven't found one at LGS and don't wanna order one.

Edit; didn't show my last comment so I made a new one. lollll

IMO, if you're playing godless shrine in a 26 land deck, sunken ruins + mystic gate is where you want to be.
It gets a bit murky as your land count drops, especially since they don't play well with 1 cmc sorcery speed spells (serum), but they definitely offset the awkwardness shrine can cause sometimes.
Playing them makes me much happier every time I have to fetch basics.

You can definitely play 6 basics in a 24 land deck, but its difficult to play 6 basics, play 1 or more utility lands, play 8 or more fetches for revolt/knot, and have some painless lands that enter untapped (not manlands) all in the same mana base, which is what we want.

Esper charm is singlehandedly one of the best cards in the deck. Answers enchantments MB, saves us 6-8 life against burn, surprises a combo deck that thinks they can sit back and sculpt their hand, disrupts valakut and tron's sequencing plan, and draws cards against grindier MUs. Because I play 4, I don't need a bloodmoon proof mana base - I need 9 fetches and 1 of each basic. I understand you have a different game plan, but a truly draw-go strategy loves the modal function of Esper charm.

And regarding Godless Shrine: there are several games where I have the need to spend All but one of my mana in order to draw a 1cmc kill spell to NOT LOSE. With Godless Shrine, it can be either PtE or Push and I'm still in the game. I've lost to leaving the wrong source open before (leave the source you're most likely to need and you still run the chance of being wrong).

I played Esper Teachings two years ago when Jund was the premier deck of the format, but I think in a format of "I win on turn 3 or turn 4 consistently" we need to be able to T3 disrupt OR draw, T4 disrupt OR draw. I love teachings, I played 3 Teachings/2 Gifts in my esper deck in that midrange format. But we can lose so easily if we don't attack the opponent's resources that I don't think it's right not to play instant-speed Mind Rot. Of course it's just a difference in opinion, I get that and I understand. No offense taken chief! I think our playstyles may just differ in a way that makes one card better for me than for you, and vice versa.

Moving into a meta that is again favoring classic Jund and other Midrange strategies (Counter Company, Abzan, etc), what's the consensus towards Grave Titan out of the board? I played it to great success ages ago, and with most Midrange decks playing Fatal Push as their premier removal spell, I can definitely see it being the bomb that it was two years ago. I've also been considering other bombs, like Elspeth, but I really don't like Elspeth to be honest.

Here's my current list, I'm going to try adding red for 2 mb Kcommand and 2-3 sb Crumble to Dust, also maybe and Izzet Staticaster.


That's how it sits now. I'm planning on cutting 2 Ghost Quarter and 2 Colonnade for 1 mountain, 1 Sacred Foundry, 1 Polluted Delta, and 1 Steam Vents.
-1 Serum Visions and -1 Cast Out make room for the 2 Kommands.
I'd like to try to get +1 Snappy, +1 Logic Knot, +1 Cryptic main, but the only easy cuts are the Visions..
As for the board, I'll never find the room, but I want to add 2 or 3 Crumble, maaaaybe a Staticaster, I'd love to ad +1 Runed Halo, +1 Clique, +1 Dispel and maybe even some number of Relic of Progenitus, but there's never enough room..

What's the reason for staticaster?

And how has 5 manlands treated you?

For me, I play 8 Ux fetches and a single steam Vents, never have an issue finding it for my 2 crumble to dust in SB.

Why do you want to play Kcommand?

Quote from Teferi_Brah_Of_Zhalfir »

@ kodieyost

I know what Esper Charm is capable of, I've played the card in my old Esper and 4c decks

I'm just saying, as purely a draw spell, which is why I've played it, I think Sphinx Rev and Teachings are just better at that function.

But let's look at the card's modes in no particular order:

1. Mind Rot - I know instant speed discard is cool and all, I've shredded hands to good success between Charm and Thoughtseize, for a non-8rack deck. But seriously. Mind Rot. In Modern. Think about it... Is that what you really want to be paying WUB for in a format like this? I for one can't say that I do.

2. Solemn Offering - Minus the life gain at instant speed. 3 mana to destroy an enchantment isn't where I want to be either when I can do the same for 1-2 mana. WUB is a clunky answer to Moon. I've played 4 Charms for as long as I can remember, and I still get boned by Moon since Moon comes down turn 2-3 on average from the dedicated Moon decks. Only if you're on the play and it's a turn 3 Moon, and you have WUB up with Charm in hand then you can answer it (Basics vs Charm context no counters.) If not, then you're boned by Moon unless you have the basics in your deck to get you out of it. Cast Out for example only costs W which is a much more plausible answer to an early Moon that will lose you the game unless you have the appropriate basics in your deck. Again, 3 mana enchant hate for really only 1 specific card (Moon) isn't what I want to be paying WUB for when I can "Moon Proof" my deck by just playing the right equation of basic lands.

3. Divination - The primary mode, at instant speed. Is nice. Is the reason I've played the card as a 4-of. But when I think really hard about it, 2 random cards for WUB in the Modern format is again, not where I want to be when I can draw 3 for U. Think Twice does the same thing for a less restrictive mana cost, only split up in separate payments, which actually works a lot better in this format so you can hold up TT + Push/Path mana on turn 3 to draw and answer so you don't fall too far behind. Esper Charm at 3 mana is not going to make unkeepable hands keepable since 3 mana is a long shot off and you may get stuck on 2 lands which is death in this format for a control deck. Think Twice makes unkeepable hands keepable, similar to Serum Visions, since you only need 2 lands to start drawing cards and get you out of an awkward start. Esper Charm doesn't do this.

I get that Esper Charm is "modal". I get that more options are GENERALLY where you want to be. But not always. There's a reason Silumgar's Command doesn't see much play. While the options are in fact fantastic, it's just not good enough in this format to be paying that kind of mana cost for. I don't understand why you say "but a truly draw-go strategy loves the modal function of Esper charm." Esper Charm has nothing to do with being "draw-go" or not. Just because I choose to not play the card currently doesn't mean my strategy isn't truly draw-go. I could say the same for your deck right now and say your deck isn't truly draw go because you play Supreme Verdict, Serum Visions + a plethora of sorcery speed cards in the side like Runed Halo or Elspeth. That's like nearly a quarter of a deck's worth of Sorcery speed cards. Might as well go all the way and transition to full on tap out with more powerful cards like Lingering Souls, the Gideons and the latest craze Glory-Bound Initiate if you asked me

Esper Charm is a good card, no doubt. But when I look hard at what I'm getting for a very restrictive mana cost, and then I look at the other options such as Mystical Teachings or Gifts Ungiven, I think to myself, "Why am I exactly playing this card, when there are alternatives that do a better job at functioning as a draw engine?" Both Teachings and Gifts, offer card advantage and premium selection. You get exactly what you want now AND later. No more blaming losing to "wrong half of your deck" variance because there is no halves, it's the whole 60 you get to choose from. Now that is POWERFUL stuff right there. And it's not as simple as "Why not play both?" Because you run into the issue of not having ENOUGH of the right answers. Deck space is extremely tight, and playing too many cards that don't do much to by themselves isn't a great strategy IMO.

Look this may be controversial post, but it's in good spirits, I'm just stating my reasoning/opinions for healthy discussion, no offence intended if it comes across that way

I don't really agree with you on Charm v. Teachings. In many circumstances, an instant speed Mind Rot is EXACTLY what I want against some of the decks in Modern. Sorcery? No. Instant speed makes all the of the difference. The draw two cards is absolutely the best iteration of instant speed draw spells we have access to, and the Demystify mode IS really very important for Blood Moon, even if we played more than 6 basics. A deck with 4 Colonnades that's looking to play multiple Logic Knots/Cryptic Commands late game is just never going to be "moon proof". Besides, it's just a nice effect to have when I'd play the card without the enchantment-destroying mode anyways. The issue with Teachings for me has always been efficiency -- it basically adds 3U to the mana cost of the spell you're tutoring for, which is sometimes acceptable and sometimes not. If you are given the opportunity to resolve Teachings, then sure -- the front half isn't bad. However, I can count the times I've flashbacked a Teachings in Modern on one hand, despite playing it over the past few years on and off, including in blue mirrors, so I don't think I'd even count it as a card advantage spell. Charm is a different type of Swiss-Army knife, and it always does what you want it to immediately, despite not being as specific as Teachings. Assuming you draw what you needed in the 2 cards, Charm to draw and find an answer is strictly better than Teachings because it netted you a card and costed 1 less mana than Teachings. If you didn't draw exactly the card you wanted, chances are that there's another card that does the job that you can draw into -- that's a great upside of playing 4 Cryptics, and I'm not afraid to play a wrath for 1/2 creatures if it's the right play. I'm just not sold on teachings, which is sad because I'd like to think I'm biased towards it, not against.

Quote from kodieyost »

I played Esper Teachings two years ago when Jund was the premier deck of the format, but I think in a format of "I win on turn 3 or turn 4 consistently" we need to be able to T3 disrupt OR draw, T4 disrupt OR draw. I love teachings, I played 3 Teachings/2 Gifts in my esper deck in that midrange format. But we can lose so easily if we don't attack the opponent's resources that I don't think it's right not to play instant-speed Mind Rot. Of course it's just a difference in opinion, I get that and I understand. No offense taken chief! I think our playstyles may just differ in a way that makes one card better for me than for you, and vice versa.

Moving into a meta that is again favoring classic Jund and other Midrange strategies (Counter Company, Abzan, etc), what's the consensus towards Grave Titan out of the board? I played it to great success ages ago, and with most Midrange decks playing Fatal Push as their premier removal spell, I can definitely see it being the bomb that it was two years ago. I've also been considering other bombs, like Elspeth, but I really don't like Elspeth to be honest.

Why don't you like Espeth? It's basically Grave Titan, but on-color and not weak to creature removal. That said, Grave Titan is viable. We just have access to Elspeth, and I think she's better. I suppose Grave Titan dodges Negate, if you want to make a anti-control meta choice?

Quote from Waerz »

Here's my current list, I'm going to try adding red for 2 mb Kcommand and 2-3 sb Crumble to Dust, also maybe and Izzet Staticaster.

TheAnnihilator0798's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Sorcery 6 3 Serum Visions 3 Supreme Verdict Instant 30 2 Fatal Push 4 Path to Exile 3 Snapcaster Mage 1 Blessed Alliance 2 Negate 4 Think Twice 4 Esper Charm 3 Cryptic Command 1 Cast Out 2 Secure the Wastes 2 Logic Knot 2 Sphinx's Revalation	Land 24 4 Flooded Strand 3 Polluted Delta 2 Hallowed Fountain 2 Watery Grave 1 Godless Shrine 3 Island 1 Plains 1 Swamp 4 Celestial Colonnade 1 Creeping Tarpit 2 Ghost Quarter	Sideboard 15 1 Baneslayer Angel 1 Vendilion Clique 2 Spell Queller 1 Kataki, War's Wage 2 Glorybound Initiate 1 Wrath of God 1 Runed Halo 1 Rest in Peace 1 Negate 1 Dispel 3 Thoughtseize

That's how it sits now. I'm planning on cutting 2 Ghost Quarter and 2 Colonnade for 1 mountain, 1 Sacred Foundry, 1 Polluted Delta, and 1 Steam Vents.
-1 Serum Visions and -1 Cast Out make room for the 2 Kommands.
I'd like to try to get +1 Snappy, +1 Logic Knot, +1 Cryptic main, but the only easy cuts are the Visions..
As for the board, I'll never find the room, but I want to add 2 or 3 Crumble, maaaaybe a Staticaster, I'd love to ad +1 Runed Halo, +1 Clique, +1 Dispel and maybe even some number of Relic of Progenitus, but there's never enough room.

Quote from kodieyost »

What's the reason for staticaster?

And how has 5 manlands treated you?

For me, I play 8 Ux fetches and a single steam Vents, never have an issue finding it for my 2 crumble to dust in SB.

Why do you want to play Kcommand?

I don't mind a light splash for Crumble in the board if you must (tho Tron these days is Eldrazi Tron, and I'd much rather just play Ceremonious Rejection instead -- kodie's suggestion for lands is spot on if you want to splash), but I don't suggest playing Kommand in the main -- we don't play enough creatures, so the best it can do is shock a creature (which isn't killing much these days) and make them discard. The Shatter is good when it's good, but very polarizing -- other cards would be more effective, such as extra Wraths or another Cryptic. In fact, I feel like you'd be better off cutting Serums, adding 2 lands, 1 Cryptic, and something else of your choice to the main, and your list looks super solid. I understand the 5th manland, since I play one when I expect a planeswalker- or control-heavy metagame. As for sideboard edits, not a fan of the Kataki, the Initiates (if they don't perform in testing, I just don't like the fact that they're basically just creatures), or the RiP. You could cut those to add room.

Before I get roasted by BloodyRabbit, I want to add more to what I've said before on Serum after having playtested a list for several matches (4+ games against several T1 decks) : 24 lands is not enough because without Serum you can't hit the 4th land drop without spending your time on Think Twice. Serum does NOT guaruntee you hit land drops, either. What I suspected about the timing and turn patterns was absolutely correct -- no reason to fetch-shock T1 (unless low land count FORCED me to, which means the change easily backfires), no real ability to T2 it, and T3 wanting to do other things like eot ECharm or removal+counter/think. The list had 24 lands and 4 Serums, and it felt pretty awful tbh, much clunkier than the traditional lists. I'm about to say something to the newcomers that doesn't apply to the more experienced ones who choose to play Serum: if you played Serum upon arrival to Esper because you saw discussion about it and had played it in previous blue decks, tho you may feel comfortable with Serums due to it being basically the same as it always has been, I HIGHLY suggest you play a more traditional 60 for a few matches against multiple decks to get a feel for how the deck sequences without Serum. You may find it less costly on you life, and it hopefully frees up some options (mana-wise). As for those who converted over to Serum, that's fine -- it's just personal preference at this point. I personally feel more inclined towards a 26-land, no-Serum decklist.